Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[CURRY]

Can someone tell me if Marth's tippers are safer now?

Ok. I think I kind of got it. I was really confused with all the terms as well, but after some poking around, this is what I think is happening. Sorry if you already understood all the terms already, because this was at least a discovery for me.
Too lazy to do the Smashboards quote thing, so I'm going to post the sources and use quotation marks instead.

http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/
"Marth's sourspot attacks are made safer on shield [compared to Lucina's attack] due to a modifier that Lucina does not have, negating her extra damage advantage that would otherwise equate to more safety. Marth's sweetspot attacks are modified negatively for him, but the higher damage and shield knock back difference is pretty noticeable, still resulting in tippers/sweetspots being safer on shields than Lucina spacing at the same distance. "

What you should have deducted, since we don't care about Lucina right now: Marth had better frame advantage hitting with sourspots compared to when he hit with tippers. However, because of shield pushback and shield damage, tippers were still safer than sourspots.

http://smashboards.com/threads/seizon-senryaku-marth-general.366765/page-66#post-20057757
"[hitlag modifiers are] Modifiers that change the amount of hitlag done. Most moves have a modifier of 1, but Marth has modifiers that aren't 1 on most of his attacks (0.7 on untipped and 1.25 on tipped, mostly)."

Basically, hitlag modifiers that are less than 1 are good for you, and give you more safety.
Hitlag modifiers that are more than 1 make it less safe for you to attack with that attack.

http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235/
"Hit Lag received by the defender (shield hit lag) now matches that of the attacker;
Attacks with hit lag modifiers below 1.0 no longer receive safety bonuses, those above 1.0 (or 1.25 from 1.1.0 patch) are conversely safer than before."

This is why our sourspots are less safe than before-- they don't have the weird frame advantage over tippers anymore.

Conversely, our tippers are safer than before. Before, we would be the only ones freezing for a few frames when we land a tipper.
However, because of this patch, the shielder will freeze the same amount of frames that WE do when we tipper a hit.

EDIT:
Ahahaha, 420th post.
._.
Second edit, I finally understand how 1.1.1 shields work overall. I feel so proud of myself.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Well said Ben.



You can PM me the costume if you want, I won't make fun of it. It sounds like a lot of hard work. Nice job making one.

Hey viper, think I could make a Marth cosplay thread? I'm not sure if I'd get flagged because its not an in game subject.

 

[Vipermoon]

Hey viper, think I could make a Marth cosplay thread? I'm not sure if I'd get flagged because its not an in game subject.

It will probably deleted since I doubt you're allowed to post pictures of the real world/yourself.

 

[FallenHero]

It will probably deleted since I doubt you're allowed to post pictures of the real world/yourself.

I don't think there is a rule against that.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I don't think there is a rule against that.

I guess I can ask shaya at some point. I was not planning on photographing myself, more of a discussion on materials and techniques.

 

[Quickhero]

I'm pretty sure I've seen people in other socials post their faces, so on that account, you should be good.

 

[A_Kae]

I just finished calculating Marth's shield safety on jabs and tilts. It's not worse. It's better.

This is because of the shieldstun increase. It more than makes up for the hitlag change on untipped attacks, and is of course a direct buff to the safety of tips. Data below.

Edit: First number is tipped, second number is untipped.

Attack|1.1.0|1.1.1|Difference
Jab 1|-22/-20|-19/-20|+3/0
Jab 2|-23/-22|-20/-21|+3/+1
Ftilt|-24/-22|-20/-21|+4/+1
Utilt|-27/-26/-27|-23/-25/-26|+4/+1/+1
Dtilt|-13/-12|-9/-10|+4/+2

Only jabs and tilts because this takes a while to do, and it's just to demonstrate that Marth is safer than before, not less safe.

Edit 2: Lordwilliam1234 has already gotten advantage data for Marth here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12a9yZTmAUrL17sL6BQC4DJiKUVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/edit?pli=1#gid=0

 

[Radiant Hero]

Lord William confirming that Marth's sourspots are just as safe as before, and his sweetspots are even safer in the patch notes thread was very much a relief. So let's not be all doomy and gloomy just yet!

(Also this is my first post in the Marth boards, so hey everyone!)

 

[Shaya]

Well, yes, every move should be safer, everything has 4 more frames of shield stun at least (on average).

But we got "hurt" slightly, by the hit lag mechanic change; so everyone else got "stronger", while Marth got stronger and weaker.

 

[Halfminded]

Edit 2: Lordwilliam1234 has already gotten advantage data for Marth here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12a9yZTmAUrL17sL6BQC4DJiKUVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Am I crazy/reading this wrong, or does this feel like a list for link data?

 

[A_Kae]

Am I crazy/reading this wrong, or does this feel like a list for link data?

No, you're right, it's for Link . Click on the tab that says 'Marth' at the bottom.

Edit: Actually, this link should go there directly: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/edit?pli=1#gid=1636352940

 

[Shaya]

thing | Attack Name | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
| Neutral Air 1 Sweet | [-38,-39] | [-37,-38] | -8 | 3
| Neutral Air 1 Sour | [-39,-40] | [-38,-39] | -9 | 0
| Neutral Air 2 Sweet | [-21,-27] | [-20,-26] | -5 | 4
| Neutral Air 2 Sour | [-22,-28] | [-21,-27] | -6 | 2
| Forward Air Sweet | [-22,-24] | [-22,-24] | -9 | 4
| Forward Air Sour | [-23,-25] | [-23,-25] | -10 | 2
| Back Air Sweet | [-20,-24] | [-14,-18] | -9 | 4
| Back Air Sour | [-21,-25] | [-15,-19] | -10 | 1
| Up Air Sweet | [-23,-32] | [-17,-26] | -6 | 4
| Up Air Sour | [-24,-33] | [-18,-27] | -7 | 1
| Down Air Sweet | [-36,-40] | [-33,-37] | -14 | 5
| Down Air Sour | [-38,-42] | [-35,-39] | -16 | 1

| Neutral Air 1 | [-39,-40] | [-38,-39] | -9 | 2
| Neutral Air 2 | [-22,-28] | [-21,-27] | -6 | 4
| Forward Air | [-23,-25] | [-23,-25] | -10 | 3
| Back Air | [-21,-25] | [-15,-19] | -10 | 4
| Up Air | [-24,-33] | [-18,-27] | -7 | 4
| Down Air Sweet | [-37,-41] | [-34,-38] | -15 | 4
| Down Air Sour | [-38,-42] | [-35,-39] | -16 | 4

 

[Halfminded]

No, you're right, it's for Link . Click on the tab that says 'Marth' at the bottom.

Derp. How'd I miss that, haha. But thanks for the direct link! Hehe, "link"

 

[kj22]

thing | Attack Name | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
| Neutral Air 1 Sweet | [-38,-39] | [-37,-38] | -8 | 3
| Neutral Air 1 Sour | [-39,-40] | [-38,-39] | -9 | 0
| Neutral Air 2 Sweet | [-21,-27] | [-20,-26] | -5 | 4
| Neutral Air 2 Sour | [-22,-28] | [-21,-27] | -6 | 2
| Forward Air Sweet | [-22,-24] | [-22,-24] | -9 | 4
| Forward Air Sour | [-23,-25] | [-23,-25] | -10 | 2
| Back Air Sweet | [-20,-24] | [-14,-18] | -9 | 4
| Back Air Sour | [-21,-25] | [-15,-19] | -10 | 1
| Up Air Sweet | [-23,-32] | [-17,-26] | -6 | 4
| Up Air Sour | [-24,-33] | [-18,-27] | -7 | 1
| Down Air Sweet | [-36,-40] | [-33,-37] | -14 | 5
| Down Air Sour | [-38,-42] | [-35,-39] | -16 | 1

| Neutral Air 1 | [-39,-40] | [-38,-39] | -9 | 2
| Neutral Air 2 | [-22,-28] | [-21,-27] | -6 | 4
| Forward Air | [-23,-25] | [-23,-25] | -10 | 3
| Back Air | [-21,-25] | [-15,-19] | -10 | 4
| Up Air | [-24,-33] | [-18,-27] | -7 | 4
| Down Air Sweet | [-37,-41] | [-34,-38] | -15 | 4
| Down Air Sour | [-38,-42] | [-35,-39] | -16 | 4

Single digit aerial landing lag on Marth?...We've come a long was since 1.0.0...

 

[Radiant Hero]

Well, yes, every move should be safer, everything has 4 more frames of shield stun at least (on average).

But we got "hurt" slightly, by the hit lag mechanic change; so everyone else got "stronger", while Marth got stronger and weaker.

Ah, I guess I'm still confused about the changes to hit lag. I'll have to look into it more... is Marth truly the only character that got weaker due the hit lag change?

 

[Shaya]

Single digit aerial landing lag on Marth?...We've come a long was since 1.0.0...

Yeah but my golden girl is close to neutral on shield with everything.

-

Any action with less than a 1.0 modifier are less safe from that change, even if their shield stun values will be higher. In some cases it's still working out at a disadvantage, Zero Suit's down smash and paralyzer had 0.0 modifiers which in down smash's case was 8 frames of hit lag and 3 frames of shield stun (11 total), now it's 6 frames... almost halved.

 

[A_Kae]

Ah, I guess I'm still confused about the changes to hit lag. I'll have to look into it more... is Marth truly the only character that got weaker due the hit lag change?

The change with hitlag is just the shielding opponent now takes the same amount of hitlag as the attacker. Previously, a shielding opponent took hitlag as though the modifer was 1, while the attacker took regular hitlag. Now, both the attacker and defender take the same amount of hitlag (specifically, what just the attacker would have taken in 1.1.0 and earlier).

Marth wasn't made weaker/less safe by this change, (and that's the point of my earlier post) just not as safe as he could have been had hitlag stayed the same (untipped attacks would generally be 2-3 frames safer I think if hitlag didn't change).

Roy is also affected by this, his tipped attacks are in that same 'safer, but not as safe as they could have been' area.

 

[Shaya]

It hurts Roy more than Marth. I was honestly really really digging his potency while spacing well. Now it's best for him to space with his sweetspots, which is lame.
I think I may consider not using Roy at all after this. Funny that I read someone say "is there any reason to use Marth over Roy now?" (I don't even know how it makes sense but whatever)... but it's actually quite the opposite...

As I said, this patch proportionally weakened both Marth and Roy, at least in contrast to Lucina (without lucina getting anything special over hyper majority of the cast). Marth on his non-spaced hits... it's not that bad. Roy on the other hand is just losing something I considered pretty important to him for actually being on par or ahead of Marth in viability. I guess Roy's mobility specs/other considerations could still result in it being so, but it's a lot less likely conisdering.

 

[DariusM27]

How has your experience with marth changed? Does it feel easier to win, harder, or essentially the same as before, and why?

 

[Radiant Hero]

The change with hitlag is just the shielding opponent now takes the same amount of hitlag as the attacker. Previously, a shielding opponent took hitlag as though the modifer was 1, while the attacker took regular hitlag. Now, both the attacker and defender take the same amount of hitlag (specifically, what just the attacker would have taken in 1.1.0 and earlier).

Marth wasn't made weaker/less safe by this change, (and that's the point of my earlier post) just not as safe as he could have been had hitlag stayed the same (untipped attacks would generally be 2-3 frames safer I think if hitlag didn't change).

Roy is also affected by this, his tipped attacks are in that same 'safer, but not as safe as they could have been' area.

Thanks for the explanation, this makes sense to me now. So given with what Shaya said then, Marth got "stronger", but not as much as he could have gotten, and Roy even more so?

Either way, thanks to the both of you for helping me understand how this effects Marth. I appreciate it.

 

[HFlash]

So it seems like the short lived meta of using untipped attacks for Marth is gone and we are back to the brawl Marth "tip everything" mentality?

 

[Shaya]

Sour spots are still smart to hit with, just no point not using tippers in footsies anymore (well... not tippering in footsies is kinda hard tbh). Still the out of shield or mid range sour spot punish is still very good for us.

I kinda have a game plan theory for Marth in my mind that's been brewing for a while, I feel like I could explain it verbally but visually is best (if you've ever seen me explain Marth **** in person I'm doing extra slowed down Marth swings with my right arm; as unique as that probably would be to put in video form I don't have a worthy camera I think) so I'd need to record game footage and talk over it, ughh.

i.e. Zero Suit Marth

 

[Reizilla]

How long did it take some of you to get used to tilt stick? I finally tried it out today and I can see the benefits, but without a Wii U to practice on, I feel I'll never get used to it. Do you use A+B smash to help compensate?

 

[Shaya]

No, although maybe I should.

I would say it took me about 2 to 3 and a half weeks? My first tournament with it didn't go to well (got 2nd overall; but almost flubbed to a sheik in pools which would've meant i didn't make bracket), it was mostly being sloppy with punishes and still using the control stick for tilts or whatever; I think what I found helpful for that afterwards was "walking down tilt" (down tilt, walk forward, down tilt again), and expand that even further by using the control stick to buffer a dash the opposite direction you're facing into down tilt for a "turn around down tilt" (down tilt, tap dash in the opposite direction once and let go of the stick [if have let go of the stick before the end lag you won't dash], time [possibly buffer? I think movement inputs can still attract other move buffers] a down tilt). If you play with tap jump on (like a boss), you can also practicing double stick buffering up airs.

I also practiced reverse wave bouncing a lot because I think it's amazing, and that also requires using both sticks.
And oh yeah, you have to get used to doing smash attacks some way. Forward and down smashes I've gotten used to with just down/side inputs with A, but I found running up smashes awkward; I've been using up + Z (grab), and if you're in a dash that will register as an up smash input, you can pivot jump it as well. I think you may need tap jump on for that (shame you can't charge with it, so I've been looking for another way).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Patch rewards Marth for being Marth and Roy for being Roy and neither char is rewarded for trying to impede in the others territory.

Sounds good to me.

You are all just ****ing spoiled.

 

[Shaya]

You are all just ****ing spoiled.

You *******.
Coming in here with a pedestal while maining Ryu?
Jeez.

And eh, it hurts Roy a little "properly". Marth's fine. If this mean's Marth can now get roy's aerial mobility, initial walk and throws because we're no longer impeding on his territory, then I'm looking forward to the next patch

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

I think Marth beats Ryu in the match btw.

 

[Shaya]

That doesn't surprise much, it's almost a remix of Marth v Snake in Brawl.
Disjoints work really well against the guy. We can use counter against you. Transcended priority is fantastic against you too.

But yoooo I'm soooo stupendously stupefied by how much ZSS got buffed this patch. She seems like a clear god in this game now. Just about every number in her is better than Brawl Marth was. Meanwhile Sheik's needles are 5 frames worse on shield, she ain't getting 9 frames safer anything.

Time to push aside the ninja ***** and start saying we're not even top 5 and finding reasons we're bad because holy crap I was pretty confident none of the zss hype ("everyone's picking up ZSS") would last, but now.... ugh.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah my personal top ten in order is



Kinda feel or could kick out CF though. I find them overall more impressive.

 

[Vipermoon]

I 100% agree that Ryu is top 5 (he can even be top 3) thanks to this patch.

 

[FallenHero]

Emblem Lord you haven't abandoned us right? I agree with you about a lot of us being spoiled though, the only thing worth complaining about is the SB nerf, everything else is pretty much a buff for Marth. Despite what my profile says I main Marth and second Ryu(though my Ryu is WAAYYY better than my Marth). I don't mean to go off topic, but I do think that Ryu is the 3rd best character in the game.

 

[Vipermoon]

You've been maining Marth since game release and your Ryu is better?

Lol.

But no, I do not agree that we are spoiled. Our character is unfinished and you don't need to main Marth in other Smash games to realize that (which wouldn't make you spoiled).

 

[Reizilla]

Everyone is right. It makes sense that we be rewarded for spacing at the tip and less so at the sour spot. But it is also clear that Marth has a bunch of nonsensical holes and properties on his attacks that have no reason being there. They don't serve any purpose or don't function properly. And now Shieldbreaker is one of them

 

[FallenHero]

You've been maining Marth since game release and your Ryu is better?

Lol.

But no, I do not agree that we are spoiled. Our character is unfinished and you don't need to main Marth in other Smash games to realize that (which wouldn't make you spoiled).

Well to be fair I took a break from playing smash around February this year and didn't come back to playing it until some time after Ryu, Lucas and Roy were released, so during that time I just got worse at the game in general and I was spending a lot of time in smash 4 just going back to the way I used to play and my Marth suffered a lot. Besides, Ryu is just a better character in general. You can say I am Ryu main if I am better with him than I am with Marth, but I like to consider myself as a Marth main since I like to play as him more than any other character and I want to be able to use him better than my Ryu, or at an equal level to my Ryu.

I really don't understand what you mean by "unfinished". The only thing I think should be considered "unfinished" with Marth is his weird lack of a hitbox on some of his moves and the change to SB making it not even work how the name advertises it does. I think you are overreacting over ONE nerf on a move that really only broke shields on people who didn't realize it would break their shield or just hold shield in front of you most of the time anyways. I don't think Marth should be getting any nerfs in the current state that he is in, but he did get a buff with being safer on shield.

 

[Vipermoon]

What do I mean about unfinished? Post #2833 is what I mean.

 

[FallenHero]

What do I mean about unfinished? Post #2833 is what I mean.

DB2 not always connecting properly does not make Marth and unfinished character, it just means they need to fix that move just like there are many things that should be fixed in this game despite the game being finished.

 

[Vipermoon]

I didn't say Marth was the only unfinished character. Though he is among the worst cases.

Example: try SH double Fair with ROB. Tell me if it hits anybody

 

[Emblem Lord]

Everyone is right. It makes sense that we be rewarded for spacing at the tip and less so at the sour spot. But it is also clear that Marth has a bunch of nonsensical holes and properties on his attacks that have no reason being there. They don't serve any purpose or don't function properly. And now Shieldbreaker is one of them

I am thinking any poke to Shieldbreaker is now most likely a tight string and may be hard to avoid on pure reaction. This may be why it was nerfed a bit. Plus its recovery was reduced by a few frames in a previous patch. Long range and transcendent as well. It def still has its uses.

 

[Shaya]

The move is cancer on wifi, I'm sure we've all seen the (more often) Lucinas who spam full hop charging shieldbreaker and the risk for dealing with it did not stack up.
It's unfortunate we the competitive player loses because of this, but just be hopeful we're compensated for it soon.

Realistically for Marth, well spaced tipper shieldbreaker shouldn't be punishable on block now. It kinda wasn't before, but getting thrown an extra 3 frames due to hit lag and 5 (or more) frames shield stun is pretty good.

 

[LancerStaff]

I didn't say Marth was the only unfinished character. Though he is among the worst cases.

Example: try SH double Fair with ROB. Tell me if it hits anybody

Now look, I'm just wandering around, and I imagine I've gotten on your bad side in the past... But here's my two cents.

Marth has a ton of moves that don't remotely match the animation, correct? Jab I think was the big one, maybe not.

Pit has the same issues as well on many moves. Most notably on his Ftilt, which both doesn't actually hit on the first frame it would appear to and the whole top sword might as well not exist. You'd think it's some ***** last-second nerf, but you should also know this is one of Pit's most notably rehauled normals. The old animation matched the new attack better then the new animation, honestly. I could explain this further, but it's pretty clear they could of switched out for the old animation whenever they wanted.

You know why they didn't? Because it looks cool, and making it 1:1 could cause balance issues, balanced to the animation or not. The opposite is also true. Captain Falcon needs his crazy Fsmash to blow through stuff and hit people hard where he otherwise couldn't. And it even applies to other things, such as Mewtwo's cannon weight vs. Pikachu's, Samus's clunky floatyness, or Yoshi's unique egg shield.

Some characters have had moves made to match better... Some. Some don't match as well, and others that were corrected had the animation tweaked and not the hitboxes. Matching up Captain Falcon's Fsmash animation would be ridiculous, don't you think?

Point is that every character is complete. From Shiek to Samus, Nintendo's given us what they consider to be complete and slowly have been inching it closer to perfection. They're not going to "complete" Marth or Pit or Pika or Mewtwo or Captain Falcon because they were never incomplete to begin with. This is how the game is.