Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Locuan]

I indicated I would open it again come patch day. DariusM27 said he would modify it to correctly reflect confirmed | assumptions | and debunked changes. You can see why I said that there if you'd like. Anyways Darius, take the forefront of the changes thread.

 

[Halifax?]

~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Spc2799]

These boards make me sad man wtf feels like my old Animal Crossing save. nothings changed. house still small and empty af. friends moving out left and right. Tom Nook charging me 500 more bells for another Fire Emblem character, but this is not to get confused

you main meta knight now

Dude just focus on the positives. Yes a lot of people have probably abandoned Marth and yes Marth isn't the character he was in past iterations but i still see the potential in him and i believe everyone else on this board does too. Were not a sad abandoned village, rather i see it as a happy little village. Its kinda nice to see all the same people around. Everyone has a different opinion and even though i haven't interacted with many of them yet i feel like i know them all in a little way. Were not sad and were not something to be pitied. I think its more so something to use as motivation. When i see everyone on these boards talking Marth it inspires me to keep going with a less than stellar character. I'm not the best i can be yet and knowing there are other people experiencing the Marth struggle motivates me a lot.

 

[Newbarktown]

Well I'm on 1.1.4, and sad news is Marth didn't get much. All throws are the same, people still fall out of dancing blade at high%.

I've noticed a couple small buffs to damage (1%/2%), that's about it. Bleh.

 

[BozzMac]

Plenty of Marths and Lucinas hangout on Discord, we're actually one of the largest Discords out there.

Also I'm pretty sure the only buffs we've gotten were damage buffs.

 

[DariusM27]

Plenty of Marths and Lucinas hangout on Discord, we're actually one of the largest Discords out there.

Also I'm pretty sure the only buffs we've gotten were damage buffs.

Dtilt and jab knockback changes. Usmash hitbox maybe

 

[TheHeroKing]

Would have like to see grab followup and dancing blade consistency buffs as well as less landing lag on most of his attacks. 0.5 damage increases to like 3 attacks don't exactly fix things...

 

[DariusM27]

Also seems tipper hitbox may be better across the board and Nair seems to hit lower more reliably, more checking needed to confirm.

Air attacks kill earlier than youd think also

 

[Freelance Spy]

I'm back from the Zelda boards and labbing with my girl. Now I'm depressed.

I haven't noticed anything important for Marth except that our kill power has changed for better. Hopefully upair actually kills before 140 tippered now.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Utilt slides Marth foward significantly, every time!!! I found something different!

Bowserboy3 I know he has had a slide, but it seems way better.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Utilt slides Marth foward significantly, every time!!! I found something different!

This was present before hand unfortunately.

 

[Illuminado]

This patch is significant. Wait for the data. Marth has a lot of changes here that are really good and under the hood so to speak. I'm wary of placebo, but I'd be really surprised if we weren't seeing some bkb and kbg adjustments on aerials across the board. Sadly I have to go to work so only got a 30 mins eyeball in training mode, so yeah. I think it's too early to feel hard done by.

 

[cerealkiller]

Roy gets a bunch of ending lag reduction. Great.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Roy gets a bunch of ending lag reduction. Great.

This is a Marth thread, if you have anything to contribute please do so. Otherwise you are wasting space that we are using to post discoveries.

That said, in the main 1.1.4 thread, it is confirmed that jab, dsmash, and ftilt have reduced duration, this could be huge. The faf of jab may be different enough to true combo even more, hopefully into FSMASH...

I thought I would post here any time they updated so that people coming here first can find info.

• Jab 1 Duration: 28F -> 25F
• Ftilt Duration: 36F -> 33F
• Dsmash Duration: 64F -> 54F

 

[Bowserboy3]

Utilt slides Marth foward significantly, every time!!! I found something different!

Bowserboy3 I know he has had a slide, but it seems way better.

Well... that's certainly interesting...

I'll be able to test things with my 1.1.3 and 1.1.4 versions of 3DS in about 20 minutes. More specifically, I am interested in testing those slight range increases Vipermoon said he found. I will also look into that Up Tilt slide thing too, see if I notice a difference too.

 

[Illuminado]

I'll let you guys find things for certain, but I was "feeling" improved hitboxes whilst I played this morning. Seems especially obvious on the FAIR and UAIR. Ofc placebo etc etc, so yeah. Pinch of salt. It also felt like the BKB of UAIR was decreased slightly as definitely registering a lot of true combos at mid percent into every Aerial. I know this was possible before patch, but it seemed a lot more consistent through play this morning. But again, minimal testing and I couldn't do anything side by side as I needed to go to work (where I am now ). But yeah, so far I'm pretty happy with the changes that have been logged as definite. Extra damage on moves is something he definitely needed.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Right, I have done a slight bit of testing. It can't be placebo... I am certain that it's entirely possible that some of Marth's tipper hitboxes are bigger. I have so far managed to test Dtilt and Fair, and they must be bigger in some capacity. It's kinda tough to get hard evidence for this kind of thing, but I have managed to get a couple of images. Just waiting for them to upload to my PC at this time.

Also Freelance Spy , unfortunately I didn't see any change with the Up Tilt step thing, it looked exactly the same to me

 

[Rashyboy05]

I heard Marth's range on some of his moves got buffed. Is this true? If it is, it would be great

 

[Bowserboy3]

Right, I thought I would post the images here first for all you fellow Marth enthusiasts. Not exactly the best evidence, but evidence nonetheless until we get actual data dumps.


Right, so the first two images are a bit odd, sorry. This was a comparison for Dtilt's range. This is the distance of the very edge of the hitbox of Dtilt will hit Luigi. Take note of the position of Marth's front foot. Marth on 1.1.4 is further back, hence, more range. It's not a huge increase, but an increase is an increase, and it will make attempting to hit a tipper easier.

Spoiler: Dtilt 1.1.3

Spoiler: Dtilt 1.1.4

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sorry mods for the double post, but I can't upload more than 3 images in one post supposedly, so I had to separate the posts, and I don't particularly want to wait for another comment before I reply... ANYWAY...

Forward air... Again, I have an image of both 1.1.3 and 1.1.4.. Take note of the position of Marth's front foot again in relative position to the stripes on the floor. The 1.1.4 Marth is further back, so again, slightly more range. It's much the same thing as with Dtilt. It's not huge, but an increase is an increase, and with the tipper hitbox being bigger, it will be slightly easier to land that tipper.

Spoiler: Fair 1.1.3

Spoiler: Fair 1.1.4

I'm going to check the other moves with supposed increased range next, which include Ftilt, Nair and Shield Breaker. As before, I'll post my findings with you guys first.

SB AND FTILT UPDATE:

Unfortunately I couldn't see any change with Shield Breaker in terms of range. As for Ftilt, it was so iffy and small that it's most likely that it was human error. Certainly not as noticeable as Dtilt and Fair, so I am calling no change to Ftilt. Gonna test Nair now...

 

[cerealkiller]

This is a Marth thread, if you have anything to contribute please do so. Otherwise you are wasting space that we are using to post discoveries.

Last time I checked this was a “General” Marth thread not a patch note, gameplay, move related exclusive. I made a perfectly valid ironic post regarding changes to Marth and you know it. Which could lead to a Marth Sakurai choices/balancing related discussion. You just decided to act rude about it because of I don’t know why. And I’ve contributed in the past so don’t insinuate I’m a lurker or a troll. If no one wants to discuss this matter, fine by me, but please don’t tell others what they should talk about.

I’m “wasting” your space? lol That’s arrogant.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Last time I checked this was a “General” Marth thread not a patch note, gameplay, move related exclusive. I made a perfectly valid ironic post regarding changes to Marth and you know it. Which could lead to a Marth Sakurai choices/balancing related discussion. You just decided to act rude about it because of I don’t know why. And I’ve contributed in the past so don’t insinuate I’m a lurker or a troll. If no one wants to discuss this matter, fine by me, but please don’t tell others what they should talk about.

I’m “wasting” your space? lol That’s arrogant.

To be fair, your post wasn't providing any sort of insight/help/proof for Marth changes. It was merely a comment "johning" about Roy getting changes Marth didn't.

Please understand, we are all as upset about that as you are, but we are all working our hardest to find out the Marth changes. Posts like that don't really bring much to the table. If you have anything you want me to test about Marth, just let me know, I can certainly test things out for you.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Last time I checked this was a “General” Marth thread not a patch note,

I am sorry for being rude.

At the time I had thought I was in the patch thread, also I had been sick all day. Still, not an excuse for being hostile, and I'm sorry about that.

Bowserboy3 maybe you could test Marth's speed in relation to Roy's? I tried this but I don't have Roy on my 3ds, only the memory of how fast he is.

I ask because I believe that roy has Brawl Marth's speed and Marth is slower.

I tested both Roy in front and behind Marth, Roy beats us out but only slightly (then again I forgot to test on a longer, walkoff stage). I really can't tell if there is anything different due to lack of 3ds dlc characters.

 

[kingxpiccolo]

Could just be a placebo effect I'm feeling, with everyone talking about Math's buff in the new patch, but I really feel like his aerials string together much more nicely. Not only that but I've found a couple of true combos (vs cpu) that I'm not certain were true before the update. sourspot fair into fair is a true combo around 70%-110% against Donkey Kong and around 65%-75% against Sheik. The first frames of up air combos into another up air on Sheik from about 15% to 60%. It also combos into both hits of nair, jab, and fair. sweetspot downair comboes into his aerials and higher percents if they miss tech. There are a few more that I've gotten just messing around but I'm too tired to actually test them out right now. sourspot fair into jab is true, oh, and fair seems to string into dair much better than before. Also, you can carry certain fighters to the blast zone with fair, seemingly easier than before. But this is just what I've found kinda messing around. So were these true before the patch? Can someone let me know if I'm just being delusional? I'd like to at least know if I'm wrong

 

[Drexxin]

So far Jab > Fsmash feels REALLY good against my opponents. I'm not sure if it's a true combo but at about 65%+ I haven't had any opponent get out of it yet (then again...patch day, we know how that is.) I also think the dtilt change is huge -- it feels like you can combine consecutive ones fairly reliably if your opponent is close.

I know these buffs are "minor" in the grand scheme of things, but Marth just feels better to play at the very least, and I'm very happy about that.

 

[DariusM27]

Could just be a placebo effect I'm feeling, with everyone talking about Math's buff in the new patch, but I really feel like his aerials string together much more nicely. Not only that but I've found a couple of true combos (vs cpu) that I'm not certain were true before the update. sourspot fair into fair is a true combo around 70%-110% against Donkey Kong and around 65%-75% against Sheik. The first frames of up air combos into another up air on Sheik from about 15% to 60%. It also combos into both hits of nair, jab, and fair. sweetspot downair comboes into his aerials and higher percents if they miss tech. There are a few more that I've gotten just messing around but I'm too tired to actually test them out right now. sourspot fair into jab is true, oh, and fair seems to string into dair much better than before. Also, you can carry certain fighters to the blast zone with fair, seemingly easier than before. But this is just what I've found kinda messing around. So were these true before the patch? Can someone let me know if I'm just being delusional? I'd like to at least know if I'm wrong

One thing I'd say for now is, if it's true that fair tipper range is bigger, that might be why.

But sour fair to fair true combod before, especially with double sticking

 

[Jterr]

I hope this isn't the last change to Marth. I appreciate the damage buffs but I wanted frame data buffs like Roy

 

[DariusM27]

I hope this isn't the last change to Marth. I appreciate the damage buffs but I wanted frame data buffs like Roy

We got some, just ground attacks. And the added knockback our air attacks do should allow for increased follow ups in many cases. I don't mind how long it takes to get the next hit as long as it's guaranteed

Also, just randomly thinking about brawl down air. If I could ask for one more thing, it would be that.

 

[Loachy]

Also, just randomly thinking about brawl down air. If I could ask for one more thing, it would be that.

Or at least something done about this

 

[Bribery]

I hope this isn't the last change to Marth. I appreciate the damage buffs but I wanted frame data buffs like Roy

We did get frame data buffs: Utilt, Jab, and Ftilt have their end lag reduced by 3 frames. Dsmash had its end lag reduced by a massive 10 frames. These are significant buffs.

Landing lag reductions like Roy got would have been nice too, but we did get all our aerials buffed in damage so it's not like they were totally ignored.

 

[DariusM27]

We did get frame data buffs: Utilt, Jab, and Ftilt have their end lag reduced by 3 frames. Dsmash had its end lag reduced by a massive 10 frames. These are significant buffs.

Landing lag reductions like Roy got would have been nice too, but we did get all our aerials buffed in damage so it's not like they were totally ignored.

I don't think Roy outclasses Marth at all. Especially if our fair and bair hitbox is bigger now. I fear no Roy, lol

 

[Jterr]

I don't think Roy outclasses Marth at all. Especially if our fair and bair hitbox is bigger now. I fear no Roy, lol

same. Marth edgeguards Roy hard and combos him pretty well

 

[HFlash]

Something to note though is that Roy's nair has 11 frames of landing lag now. Shiek has 10 on her fair. Food for thought. Marth needed a DB fix more than anything, but his main spacing tools did get a whole 3 frames chopped off so that is nice. His main issues which were DB and throws still present to be there post patch.

 

[EnGarde]

Something to note though is that Roy's nair has 11 frames of landing lag now. Shiek has 10 on her fair. Food for thought.

Bad Analogy. Sheik fair auto-cancels after frame 11, a mere 4 frames after the hitboxes go away, so most of the time Sheik is landing laglessly. Roy never lands laglessly after a short hop aerial lol.

 

[ZRoyal]

Not sure if Marth could do this pre-patch but I was throwing out f-tilts in training and it seems to slide Marth forward just like u-tilt. Someone want to confirm this as well?

 

[HFlash]

Bad Analogy. Sheik fair auto-cancels after frame 11, a mere 4 frames after the hitboxes go away, so most of the time Sheik is landing laglessly. Roy never lands laglessly after a short hop aerial lol.

When does Roy's autocancel? I know obviously shiek's is better (range, intangibility, etc.) but its the best analogy I can come up.

 

[BozzMac]

Ftilt didn't scoot you forward before

 

[LancerStaff]

When does Roy's autocancel? I know obviously shiek's is better (range, intangibility, etc.) but its the best analogy I can come up.

47 and up. 2nd hitbox is f21. Not exactly the best analogy...

 

[Bowserboy3]

I know that certain moves like Fair, Dair, and supposedly Ftilt and Nair have bigger tipper hitboxes now, but does anyone else feel that maybe most/all of Marth's moves got their tipper hitbox increased? I'm not necessarily talking about increased so the range is better/reaches further, but more there is more tipper now that there was before on the sword.

How to describe this... (Red is sourspot, green is tipper)

Instead of the sword being like this: ============
I feel that it could be more like this: ============

Basically like less of the sword is sourspot than before. It is probably HUGE placebo on my part. I just seem to have been landing more tippers in general, especially with Fsmash, even on occasions when I thought to myself that I should have gotten a sourspot and ended up with a tipper... Regardless, it is something that is hard to test out, so we'd need a data dump to find out, though I am pretty sure that it is probably my placebo. Still, I thought I would ask...

Actually, any idea when we will be getting a data dump so we can confirm things?

 

[Vipermoon]

I know that certain moves like Fair, Dair, and supposedly Ftilt and Nair have bigger tipper hitboxes now, but does anyone else feel that maybe most/all of Marth's moves got their tipper hitbox increased? I'm not necessarily talking about increased so the range is better/reaches further, but more there is more tipper now that there was before on the sword.

How to describe this... (Red is sourspot, green is tipper)

Instead of the sword being like this: ============
I feel that it could be more like this: ============

Basically like less of the sword is sourspot than before. It is probably hHUGE placebo on my part. I just seem to have been landing more tippers in general, especially with Fsmash, even on occasions when I thought to myself that I should have gotten a sourspot and ended up with a tipper... Regardless, it is something that is hard to test out, so we'd need a data dump to find out. Regardless, I am pretty sure that it is probably my placebo. Still, I thought I would ask...

Actually, any idea when we will be getting a data dump so we can confirm things?

The only other thing that could possibly have easier tippers is Uair but meh idk if it does. We'll see.

As far as more moves that could have more range, I left out Jab 1 because I wasn't sure. But yeah Jab 1 is another possibility. BTW for Nair, both Nair 1 and Nair 2 got the bigger hitboxes. Not just Nair 2.