Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[kj22]

Now here's the potential placebo:

Explanation: Camera Angles on the stage being weird
Neutral Air and Dash Attack looked bigger

Explanation: Fantasy / placebo / whatever
Dancing Blade 1 on the ground looked less laggy.
Jab into Up Smash on Bayonetta at 11%; the up smash ground hitbox came out while Bayonetta still had the red floral affect around her feet. But chances are it could've been shielded.
At 0:09 Marth rising fairs into a fast fall and moves pretty quickly afterwards. Now while rising fair into a fast fall was possible to do without lag if you did a VERY late fast fall, if you freeze you can see the fast fall spark is up high towards the apex. His landing lag animation is NOT the landing lag animation of forward air (look at 28 seconds into the vid for an example); i.e. he's landing without lag from a forward air he has fast fallen.
BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN THE AC WINDOW HAS BEEN TOUCHED JUST VERY DECEPTIVE TIMING ON THE FAST FALL

wait there's a fast fall spark? o.o

 

[Vipermoon]

Just a heads up, I will try to learn Corrin and depending on what I find both personally and looking at frame data, I might switch to mostly Corrin in tourney. Should this be the case, I will always have Marth. I have too much experience with him not to. No doubt I'll be able to get some wins with him even if Corrin becomes high tier.

kj22 LMAO

 

[Darklink401]

Just a heads up, I will try to learn Corrin and depending on what I find both personally and looking at frame data, I might switch to mostly Corrin in tourney. Should this be the case, I will always have Marth. I have too much experience with him not to. No doubt I'll be able to get some wins with him even if Corrin becomes high tier.

kj22 LMAO

But what if Marth > Corrin tho

 

[Vipermoon]

Then shame on Sakurai for making a DLC character that disappointing. But seriously, Corrin's Fsmash alone is enough to ensure that can't happen.

Edit: Or praise to Sakurai for giving Marth the largest buffs ever

 

[Darklink401]

Then shame on Sakurai for making a DLC character that disappointing. But seriously, Corrin's Fsmash alone is enough to ensure that can't happen.

No but like what if we get Ike-level buffs?

It's possible.

C'mon Sakurai. Be a homie. lol

 

[Vipermoon]

No but like what if we get Ike-level buffs?

It's possible.

C'mon Sakurai. Be a homie. lol

I was one step ahead. I had my post edited

 

[Darklink401]

I was one step ahead. I had my post edited

The reads.

If we're looking at it positively, fsmash and nair being longer are cool.

But I'll be realistic and say, I'll wait to confirm anything on the 3rd o3o

 

[Locuan]

@Spc2799 welcome! We'll transform you into a true swordsman.

wait there's a fast fall spark? o.o

Shaya noticed it and I messed around with trying to see the differences. But yes, there was a fast fall spark, and the animation looked different on landing as he mentioned. 25 internet cookies that it ends up being placebo.

 

[LancerStaff]

Lucina is 6 spots away, not complaining about that number but the fact that she is in an entirely different tier makes it not right (but I read the article so I know why the tiers were spaced the way they were it just sucks that stuff like that has to happen).

Meanwhile I'm a little miffed about the Pit/Dark Pit situation. Asked Shaya to clarify though before I complain much.

Also Falcon and Yoshi kind of a sore spot since if they were lower like they should be at least one of the angels would be in top 15 hhhnnng.

 

[PEACE7]

I keep hearing Marth's fair will do 13% now? That's how it was in brawl too wasn't it? Maybe its time.

 

[kj22]

wait wait wait...is there actually an animation on all characters when you fastfall? Is this exclusive to smash 4??

 

[LancerStaff]

I keep hearing Marth's fair will do 13% now? That's how it was in brawl too wasn't it? Maybe its time.

Does 12% actually, freshness is inflating it. Not that I'd know if the same happened to Brawl Fair...

wait wait wait...is there actually an animation on all characters when you fastfall? Is this exclusive to smash 4??

Smash 4 and 64, yeah. Just a little twinkle though, the characters don't really react.

 

[Bowserboy3]

But I'll be realistic and say, I'll wait to confirm anything on the 3rd o3o

I too, can confirm things with my 3DS (I have two versions). I appear to be in a different time zone to most of you though, so I expect almost everything to have been confirmed by the time I wake up on Thursday morning and download the patch.

Just one thing though... in the video, Marth was never able to/didn't use a throw, right? *crosses fingers for better throws*

If we're looking at it positively, fsmash and nair being longer are cool.

Wait... I know quite a few people (myself included) thought that Nair looked larger from that video, and I know placebo/camera angles are most likely the cause for such thoughts, but did Fsmash really look longer?

 

[Loachy]

Really? Nair? Any buff to nair would make me happy; Marth's nair is like my favorite move

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm going to speculate on what will change about Marth's aerials.

Fair will do 8 and 12%
Bair will do 9 and 13%
Uair will do 9 and 13%
Dair will be unchanged
Nair will have 10 frames of landing lag

For some reason, I see this as most likely. Hopefully you guys in this thread know Marth well enough that I don't have explain what is buffed above

I also expect Fair, Uair, and Bair tippers to be stronger than before but still have slightly nerfed knockback values.

 

[anas abou]

As a person who generally enjoyed playing Marth in past games, I feel his main issues in this game result from the mechanical changes from brawl.

okay

The changes to the shield mechanics (primarily the nerfs to shield pushback and the increased rate at which shields regenerate) really hurt marth since it makes a majority of his pokes less rewarding and effective.

actually shields regenerate slightly slower in smash 4 (3.8 damage persecond compared to brawl's 4.2) while being weaker (sm4sh shield only withstanding 42 damage compared to brawl's 50). shield pushback is nearly unchanged while having much more shieldstun. overall shields are riskier this time around.

This, along with the reduced reach and reward of Marth's grab, results in him struggling significantly more with shields. Patch 1.1.1's changes to the shield mechanics only exacerbate Marth's issues with shields due his sourspots being less safe on shield and sheildbreaker (one of his most rewarding options against shields) being significantly nerfed.

actually most grabs have less reach in this game marth still has one of the longest ones tough i agree in that marth needs better combos off of throws. but patch 1.1.1 made sourspots safer on shield not riskier. the shieldbreaker nerf is only because if they didn't nerf it a slightly charged shieldbreaker would result in the breaking of a fresh shield without it due to the nerf to shields that patch. uncharged shieldbreaker and fully charged shieldbreaker did get better.

The changes to airdodging and the ledge mechanics also harm marth as they weaken his otherwise powerful juggle and edge guarding abilities. Many characters are able to easily escape Marth's juggle and edge guard attempts with Airdodge and immediately punish him due to Airdodges having significantly reduced endlag. This is really bad for Marth since juggling and edge guarding is where a huge portion of his reward comes from.

actually airdodging is less safe in this game due to the lag on landing with them. eitherway marth destroys airdodge spamers. and the ledge mechanics actually somewhat helps him since he relies on sweetspotting the ledge from low which was very but this time around they will unstead be treated to a trump into a meaty tipper bair.

alltough i do agree that marth is much worse than he was in brawl just not for the aforementioned reasons

 

[Vipermoon]

okay



actually shields regenerate slightly slower in smash 4 (3.8 damage persecond compared to brawl's 4.2) while being weaker (sm4sh shield only withstanding 42 damage compared to brawl's 50). shield pushback is nearly unchanged while having much more shieldstun. overall shields are riskier this time around.



actually most grabs have less reach in this game marth still has one of the longest ones tough i agree in that marth needs better combos off of throws. but patch 1.1.1 made sourspots safer on shield not riskier. the shieldbreaker nerf is only because if they didn't nerf it a slightly charged shieldbreaker would result in the breaking of a fresh shield without it due to the nerf to shields that patch. uncharged shieldbreaker and fully charged shieldbreaker did get better.



actually airdodging is less safe in this game due to the lag on landing with them. eitherway marth destroys airdodge spamers. and the ledge mechanics actually somewhat helps him since he relies on sweetspotting the ledge from low which was very but this time around they will unstead be treated to a trump into a meaty tipper bair.

alltough i do agree that marth is much worse than he was in brawl just not for the aforementioned reasons

Oh when will this misinformation stop? There is more shield stun. However, shield HP is the same. Knockdown get-up attacks, Headbutt, and Shield Breaker were outright nerfs. That's it!

Sourspots are not safer on shield (especially relative to everyone else) because in-shield hitlag now matches Marth's hitlag. So Marth doesn't get those extra frames were he isn't frozen and the opponent is. Yes shield stun was raised this is why I say less safe relative to the cast).

There is air dodge landing lag but you also have to consider that air dodges are way less laggy in this game. For example, this Marth can act out of air dodge after frame 32. In Brawl, it's after 49.

 

[anas abou]

Oh when will this misinformation stop? There is more shield stun. However, shield HP is the same. Knockdown get-up attacks, Headbutt, and Shield Breaker were outright nerfs. That's it!

Sourspots are not safer on shield (especially relative to everyone else) because in-shield hitlag now matches Marth's hitlag. So Marth doesn't get those extra frames were he isn't frozen and the opponent is. Yes shield stun was raised this is why I say less safe relative to the cast).

There is air dodge landing lag but you also have to consider that air dodges are way less laggy in this game. For example, this Marth can act out of air dodge after frame 32. In Brawl, it's after 49.

i meant that 1.1.1 shield breaker is better than prepatch not that sm4sh shieldbreaker is better than brawl.

i meant that sourspots were safer in 1.1.1 compared to prepatch marth.

yeah you can act out of airdodges faster but there is still ample time to punish.

 

[Shaya]

I'm kinda in the boat hoping that these damage value increases on tippers won't have KB adjustments.

Up Air's 1% increase in my mind has me entirely thinking about the feasibility of up air into up air killing off the top.
I get up air to up air in situations where basically everyone else would've gotten a stock (heck... even ZSS with her noticeably weaker up air.... those jump accelerations).
That'll hopefully be less of a thing.

If Bair is 1% more as well - up air to tipper bair at a ledge killing around 80-90% would be nice.
Things like the above were close before, and i'm sure people have gotten kills from those sequences, but I'd say in my case hyper majority would've been survivable with DI (as in, they just weren't strong enough to kill).

 

[Darklink401]

I'm kinda in the boat hoping that these damage value increases on tippers won't have KB adjustments.

Up Air's 1% increase in my mind has me entirely thinking about the feasibility of up air into up air killing off the top.
I get up air to up air in situations where basically everyone else would've gotten a stock (heck... even ZSS with her noticeably weaker up air.... those jump accelerations).
That'll hopefully be less of a thing.

If Bair is 1% more as well - up air to tipper bair at a ledge killing around 80-90% would be nice.
Things like the above were close before, and i'm sure people have gotten kills from those sequences, but I'd say in my case hyper majority would've been survivable with DI (as in, they just weren't strong enough to kill).

Never had a problem getting sour falling upair to tipper upair to kill, except when I miss the tipper cuz tipper upair is hard to get... Dx

 

[anas abou]

Things like the above were close before, and i'm sure people have gotten kills from those sequences, but I'd say in my case hyper majority would've been survivable with DI (as in, they just weren't strong enough to kill).

this has hapenned to me before i was like "i knew i should've pummeled 1 more percent would've done it" hopefully this will be less prevelant.

 

[Jiten]

I really hate to ask this here, as I always fear my questions will be removed for lack of relevance. However, does anybody have any ideas as to when exactly the patch is going to be released? I would figure a solid while before Bayonetta and Corn will be made available, since the same happened with Cloud, where they have to be put into the game prior to people's purchases. So, is it logical to hope the patch may be issued tonight, at the earliest? I hope this doesn't sound too silly, but I haven't found people talking about times anywhere, and I'M SO IMPATIENT FOR THE MARTH BUFFS!!

 

[Darklink401]

I really hate to ask this here, as I always fear my questions will be removed for lack of relevance. However, does anybody have any ideas as to when exactly the patch is going to be released? I would figure a solid while before Bayonetta and Corn will be made available, since the same happened with Cloud, where they have to be put into the game prior to people's purchases. So, is it logical to hope the patch may be issued tonight, at the earliest? I hope this doesn't sound too silly, but I haven't found people talking about times anywhere, and I'M SO IMPATIENT FOR THE MARTH BUFFS!!

Nairo said that it is scheduled for europe in the morning of the 4th, so I assume tomorrow night.

 

[Jiten]

Nairo said that it is scheduled for europe in the morning of the 4th, so I assume tomorrow night.

Tomorrow night? Huh, I thought that Bayonetta and Corn's inclusion scheduled for tomorrow afternoon would mean that an update would be necessary for the coding, and all that. Unless I'm completely misinformed, and they're coming out the day after... Regardless of reason, if they come out tomorrow night, I think I'll explode. The Marth buffs are intriguing and I can hardly wait, like a lot of people.

 

[Darklink401]

Tomorrow night? Huh, I thought that Bayonetta and Corn's inclusion scheduled for tomorrow afternoon would mean that an update would be necessary for the coding, and all that. Unless I'm completely misinformed, and they're coming out the day after... Regardless of reason, if they come out tomorrow night, I think I'll explode. The Marth buffs are intriguing and I can hardly wait, like a lot of people.

There have been DLC characters before, available at the same time as the new patch iirc, Cloud was just the exception. That being said, we will have to wait to see tomorrow I guess xD

 

[Shaya]

Never had a problem getting sour falling upair to tipper upair to kill, except when I miss the tipper cuz tipper upair is hard to get... Dx

Sour falling up air does everything.
But our character still sucks.
Huh?

In other words...
please #_#

 

[DariusM27]

i meant that 1.1.1 shield breaker is better than prepatch not that sm4sh shieldbreaker is better than brawl.

i meant that sourspots were safer in 1.1.1 compared to prepatch marth.

yeah you can act out of airdodges faster but there is still ample time to punish.

Like 6 or 8 frame window to punish marths air dodge. It's reasonable, not easy.

 

[Vipermoon]

i meant that 1.1.1 shield breaker is better than prepatch not that sm4sh shieldbreaker is better than brawl.

i meant that sourspots were safer in 1.1.1 compared to prepatch marth.

yeah you can act out of airdodges faster but there is still ample time to punish.

To reply to your first 2 paragraphs:

I know, that's what I'm talking about.

I know, that's what I'm talking about.

To everyone else:

I've never seen sour Uair to max jump height tipper Uair not kill, even on BF without rage. Still, I'm all for a larger window.

But this is another case of "the wrong buff". I think we'd all like it a lot more if Uair was an easy tipper.

 

[Shaya]

I want tipper up air on the ground into tipper up air at 80%ish to kill, alright? (so total around 110%)

Untippered up air into tipper up air works forever. I DONT CARE ABOUT THAT (well, I do, as it will be killing earlier and it's one of the nice things he has already).

 

[Newbarktown]

Wishlist:
Give me Roy downthrow
Give me upthrow that kills at 130 without rage
Give me a dancing blade I can kill with
Give me a better dair

What I'm expecting:
"Here's 1% more on some of your aerials. Good luck fighting longer range, stronger, and less laggy Shulk"

 

[SilverForUbers]

https://giphy.com/gifs/fD5Py01KQvNXG

Anyone know what happened here? I think the Up Smash got canceled by a move ZSS used, but I'm not sure.

 

[ElementUser]

i meant that 1.1.1 shield breaker is better than prepatch not that sm4sh shieldbreaker is better than brawl.

Is it really better post-patch?

Shields in Smash 4 have 50 Health. Shieldbreaker's Shield Damage went from 30 to 25 (net negative of 5). The Shield Stun formula changed from X/2.56 to (X/1.75)+2 (X = unshielded damage value). If I plug different values into that formula, I get a 3-4 increase in shield stun (net positive of 3 or 4).

Net difference = 4 - 5 = 1 frame disadvantage , or 3-5 = 2 frame disadvantage compared to before.

Anecdotally, when I charge up my Shieldbreaker a reasonable amount, I still can't break a shield from full to 0 like before. See this thread for more details on what I mean: http://smashboards.com/threads/conditioning-your-opponents-shield-for-the-break.407649/

 

[FallenHero]

How do you guys feel about Marth's placement on the first official tier list? Honestly I feel that he was placed correctly. Maybe he should be a little bit above some of the characters in his tier, but I think he is in around the correct spot on the list.

 

[Vipermoon]

Is it really better post-patch?

Shields in Smash 4 have 50 Health. Shieldbreaker's Shield Damage went from 30 to 25 (net negative of 5). The Shield Stun formula changed from X/2.56 to (X/1.75)+2 (X = unshielded damage value). If I plug different values into that formula, I get a 3-4 increase in shield stun (net positive of 3 or 4).

Net difference = 4 - 5 = 1 frame disadvantage , or 3-5 = 2 frame disadvantage compared to before.

Anecdotally, when I charge up my Shieldbreaker a reasonable amount, I still can't break a shield from full to 0 like before. See this thread for more details on what I mean: http://smashboards.com/threads/conditioning-your-opponents-shield-for-the-break.407649/

No, it isn't. I already called him out on that. Also shields have 42 HP. That thread needs to be updated. Another inaccuracy in that thread is that the bonus shield damage doesn't increase when you charge shield breaker. So if you do the math, shield breaker needs to charge to 17% to break a full shield. It's a HUGE nerf. Of course pre-patch SB is better. It's an actual shield breaker.

 

[FallenHero]

No, it isn't. I already called him out on that. Also shields have 42 HP. That thread needs to be updated. Another inaccuracy in that thread is that the bonus shield damage doesn't increase when you charge shield breaker. So if you do the math, shield breaker needs to charge to 17% to break a full shield. It's a HUGE nerf. Of course pre-patch SB is better. It's an actual shield breaker.

I remember when they first nerfed it I assumed it would be pretty much the same with the changes to sheild-stun, but when I actually got a chance to hit someone's shield with a slightly charged SB and it didn't break their shield I literally paused the game, stood up from the couch and yelled "BRUUUUUUH! WHAT THE **** IS THIIIIS!?" SB doesn't even break shields anymore. There are so many other moves in this game that can do more shield damage than an uncharged SB and other moves that break slightly damaged shields while post-patch SB can't even break one when half charged. I wonder if there is any chance that tomorrow (today actually, but you know what I mean) when the new characters come out they make Marth's SB the way it was before.

 

[Bowserboy3]

How do you guys feel about Marth's placement on the first official tier list? Honestly I feel that he was placed correctly. Maybe he should be a little bit above some of the characters in his tier, but I think he is in around the correct spot on the list.

I feel much the same as you.

Currently, Marth doesn't have much to distinguish himself from most of the cast, but he's by no means a bad character. Like you, I feel he could be slightly higher than a few character above him, but perhaps no higher than Kirby if we are being nice.

 

[Reizilla]

I'd like to formally request Shaya be moved to the Corrin boards and make them Marth boards 2.0. Thank you

 

[Deleted member]

I don't like how you all try to force every topic to become part of the general thread. I don't know about you guys, but most people don't like to have all of their opinions reduced to a mere post on Page X that nobody will ever see again. People like to actually know that they matter, not feel like they're just a few letters on a page. Look at what you did to DariusM27 . They didn't deserve to have their thread locked just because they respected themselves enough to make their own thread rather than being a post. How would you like it if you tried to get on the News or a TV Show to present one of your reports and they told you to go to the comments section? You'd feel greatly insulted and perhaps even hurt, like you weren't worthy somehow, or like you didn't matter. I don't even go to the Marth threads except for this one time, but that was wrong of you guys (read: the mods who did it and the users who mocked them) to do that to them. Let the threads exist. This isn't Nazi Germany, you don't have to dictate people's every move.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Just a heads up, I will try to learn Corrin and depending on what I find both personally and looking at frame data, I might switch to mostly Corrin in tourney. Should this be the case, I will always have Marth. I have too much experience with him not to. No doubt I'll be able to get some wins with him even if Corrin becomes high tier.

kj22 LMAO

If this is the case, then it will be kind of sad to lose the undivided attention of one of the most influential Marth's on the boards.

Sadly, only tipper Fair gets safer but the rest do have slightly more push-back.

Any increase in damage will keep fair safer for longer due to staling. That's something to look forward to right?

 

[DariusM27]

I don't like how you all try to force every topic to become part of the general thread. I don't know about you guys, but most people don't like to have all of their opinions reduced to a mere post on Page X that nobody will ever see again. People like to actually know that they matter, not feel like they're just a few letters on a page. Look at what you did to DariusM27 . They didn't deserve to have their thread locked just because they respected themselves enough to make their own thread rather than being a post. How would you like it if you tried to get on the News or a TV Show to present one of your reports and they told you to go to the comments section? You'd feel greatly insulted and perhaps even hurt, like you weren't worthy somehow, or like you didn't matter. I don't even go to the Marth threads except for this one time, but that was wrong of you guys (read: the mods who did it and the users who mocked them) to do that to them. Let the threads exist. This isn't Nazi Germany, you don't have to dictate people's every move.

Meh, it doesn't happen too often tbh. I mean, there were mistakes in my post, but I would have fixed them if it wasn't locked before I could. I just thought someone should make a public post about the changes and no one had yet. No big deal though, we are all in this together trying to push Marth to his potential.