Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Xisin]

I'm fine to debate Greninja and Cloud.

The greninja mu isn't a kneejerk hype reaction to istudying. I've been playing greninjas since the dawn of smash 4 thanks to kero being in my region (He is in Japan now) along with like 3 other Greninjas who play exactly like him. Typically in the match up Greninja will run away shoot shuriken and try to get you in the air. The shurikens are no more problem than any other projectile, so not at all. The major issues in Greninja mu are: Greninja juggles and edge guards marth super well, and one of our best punish moves is straight up unusable in the match up. You CANNOT db a good greninja, as he will ALWAYS shadow sneak out and punish you for it, it is literally the most annoying thing of the match up. To further complicate things greninja edgeguards us super well with hydro pump and traps us on the ledge well with nair, ff uair, and ftilt. From my experience the best thing to do with greninja is to space him out on the ground with dtilts, and nairs. I could be wrong however... But playing without db to me is dumb. I usually opt to play cloud now vs frog, but even then he can shadowsneak out of non limit cross slash.

vs cloud is even to slight advantage, they are my two characters I actually use in tournament, and no cloud i've played thus far has beaten my marth. I've beaten master rank clouds on anthers and whatever Cloud bracket tosses my direction. The aerial game is where we should win, the only aerial heh as that is faster than ours is nair. (frame 5) but it only last in front of him for a tiny bit and doesn't start in front of him, you can out button his aerial spacing if you time it properly. Once Cloud goes off stage and is under he should be dead, dtilt, counter, jump off bair, jump off fair etc. The trick is to get him under the stage though. Respect his lb but don't be so afraid of it while hes got it that you give him free stuff. Blade beam and cross slash are the only ones that really threaten you and both have a blindspot behind cloud (and you can punish him super hard if you get behind him during either) to punish his ditlt simply maintain tipper spacing on him and if he dtilts merely block and isnta db behind you, it should hit, every time. If cloud tries to ledge cancel his recovery a tipper d tilt will keep you safe from a climhazard drag down and should hit him for a kill. In other words if you make 1 read in the air against cloud you should be able to get a sizable advantage on him.

 

[Reizilla]

On Greninja, maybe my local Greninja is just slow, but I can usually get off db3 up and the Shadow Sneak will whiff above me and I can punish with another db, or grab, or anything really. Does that normally work or is he just not doing it right?

 

[Xisin]

On Greninja, maybe my local Greninja is just slow, but I can usually get off db3 up and the Shadow Sneak will whiff above me and I can punish with another db, or grab, or anything really. Does that normally work or is he just not doing it right?

I actually off the top of my head couldn't tell you. I have tried other variations then straight reds ofc. But mid set I think differently than I usually would, brain works differently.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm fine to debate Greninja and Cloud.

The greninja mu isn't a kneejerk hype reaction to istudying. I've been playing greninjas since the dawn of smash 4 thanks to kero being in my region (He is in Japan now) along with like 3 other Greninjas who play exactly like him. Typically in the match up Greninja will run away shoot shuriken and try to get you in the air. The shurikens are no more problem than any other projectile, so not at all. The major issues in Greninja mu are: Greninja juggles and edge guards marth super well, and one of our best punish moves is straight up unusable in the match up. You CANNOT db a good greninja, as he will ALWAYS shadow sneak out and punish you for it, it is literally the most annoying thing of the match up. To further complicate things greninja edgeguards us super well with hydro pump and traps us on the ledge well with nair, ff uair, and ftilt. From my experience the best thing to do with greninja is to space him out on the ground with dtilts, and nairs. I could be wrong however... But playing without db to me is dumb. I usually opt to play cloud now vs frog, but even then he can shadowsneak out of non limit cross slash.

vs cloud is even to slight advantage, they are my two characters I actually use in tournament, and no cloud i've played thus far has beaten my marth. I've beaten master rank clouds on anthers and whatever Cloud bracket tosses my direction. The aerial game is where we should win, the only aerial heh as that is faster than ours is nair. (frame 5) but it only last in front of him for a tiny bit and doesn't start in front of him, you can out button his aerial spacing if you time it properly. Once Cloud goes off stage and is under he should be dead, dtilt, counter, jump off bair, jump off fair etc. The trick is to get him under the stage though. Respect his lb but don't be so afraid of it while hes got it that you give him free stuff. Blade beam and cross slash are the only ones that really threaten you and both have a blindspot behind cloud (and you can punish him super hard if you get behind him during either) to punish his ditlt simply maintain tipper spacing on him and if he dtilts merely block and isnta db behind you, it should hit, every time. If cloud tries to ledge cancel his recovery a tipper d tilt will keep you safe from a climhazard drag down and should hit him for a kill. In other words if you make 1 read in the air against cloud you should be able to get a sizable advantage on him.

My region's Greninjas are usually unable to escape due to the start-up of the move. I just keep going with the forward variant and no problems usually. I'm also curious now if they're usually doing something wrong. Other than that, switch up your recovery timing and you can usually make it back. It's not like we aren't swatting Greninja away off-stage in the inverse situation anyway.

It's very easy to talk about match-ups in a post to make any MU sound like your character's advantage. I think Marth gets juggled too hard and even outplayed in general. You can't even take Cloud to Battlefield because it benefits him a lot more. That's Marth's best stage and yet we ideally should do FD even though Marth isn't particularly strong there.

 

[Shaya]

Marth fair and nair spaced well right now can outspace Cloud nair and dash up airs (this is my personal option at least, it's godlike), but it's hard and has to be done as late as possible [as the over arc coming down of nair and the jab of up air will usually win].
Good Cloud bread and butter is spacing involves dash raring with nairs, you get good momentum and can jump backwards and weave away. This involves fast falling later than SHFF to maintain good frame advantage on the auto cancel.

I think something we're probably under appreciating this patch is how our oos punish game got better by a bit with ftilt/dtilt out of shield and dash dancing blade.

Anyway back to Cloud,
I think he's just more consistently rewarded than we are, and we're super combo food for him and can't land against him.
But a better spacing swordsmen can outplay Cloud consistently enough to make the match up feel very good; but I think between evenly skilled swordsmen Marth cannot keep up with Cloud in damage output, ko ability or movement.

I don't think we lose to Greninja. IMO it's an advantage to us. Side-b doesn't seem consistent enough from them from my experiences, we're frequently better off grabbing or tilting.

 

[Vipermoon]

I was doing some Fates watching on YT and stumbled across this. He STILL says it!! And yes, the english Fates Marth amiibo speaks english but the voice actor does a good job (and he's a famous guy too). I wouldn't mind too hard if Smash 5 had that english Marth (I'd still prefer japanese).

English:

Edit: the Falchion (second video) is huge here as it should be (first video he's using killing edge)

 

[LancerStaff]

I think that's the S.T.E.A.M. VA. Looks like he's sticking around.

 

[Vipermoon]

This has nothing to do with the patch but apparently, a backwards sour Uair (drifted into your opponent) can combo into Tipper Usmash and barely kill (barely kill Fox at least). This combo was probably a lot better at killing last patch when sour Uair was weaker.

I think that's the S.T.E.A.M. VA. Looks like he's sticking around.

Yeah. He also voiced Ben 10 and one of the Corrin voices (you can choose when making your character I guess) and I believe he voices English Sasuke IIRC. The old Marth FE anime VA was really good IMO but that was a super long time ago. Fun fact is the Japanese Fates VA is still the VA we know and love - just 15 years older.

 

[Ffamran]

*plop* From a user on Smashboards named FPhantasm.

I'm going to assume people know or debunked these, but... meh... I'm bored.

 

[Xisin]

here since the people arent making the videos super fast on these I'd like people to point out every dumb thing i did. I can see most of these myself (obvious getting baited on air dodges in the loser finals.) but i'd like extra eyes on them. Anyway here is roughly 40 minutes of tourney footage of me playing. This is winner semis- loser quarters, loser semis and loser finals.

LCC Joey is a hidden boss that has taken games off zero before, so don;t doubt him. Anyway here is the raw footage.

Winners semis vs LCC Joey 1:22:30 (1-2) http://www.twitch.tv/bourbonstategaming/v/48359164

Losers bracket play : http://www.twitch.tv/bourbonstategaming/v/48394443
from 0:00 til I'm eliminated in losers finals sets in order:

Vs HE Acestarthe3rd (2-0)
Vs Butter (2-1)
Vs LCC Joker (0-3)

bracket: http://smashboards.com/data/rankings/11944.svg
I can't deal with captain Falcons, my record is horrifying against them. Mario is a close second. Not sure what I can do so help is appreciated ofc.

 

[DariusM27]

here since the people arent making the videos super fast on these I'd like people to point out every dumb thing i did. I can see most of these myself (obvious getting baited on air dodges in the loser finals.) but i'd like extra eyes on them. Anyway here is roughly 40 minutes of tourney footage of me playing. This is winner semis- loser quarters, loser semis and loser finals.

LCC Joey is a hidden boss that has taken games off zero before, so don;t doubt him. Anyway here is the raw footage.

Winners semis vs LCC Joey 122:30 (1-2) http://www.twitch.tv/bourbonstategaming/v/48359164

Losers bracket play : http://www.twitch.tv/bourbonstategaming/v/48394443
from 0:00 til I'm eliminated in losers finals sets in order:

Vs HE Acestarthe3rd (2-0)
Vs Butter (2-1)
Vs LCC Joker (0-3)

bracket: http://smashboards.com/data/rankings/11944.svg
I can't deal with captain Falcons, my record is horrifying against them. Mario is a close second. Not sure what I can do so help is appreciated ofc.

I'm in louisville too. What's your gamer tag?

And at what times in the video are your matches?

Also, tbh capt falcon is one of the least of marth's worries. You have to mix up your baits and approaches.
You are the matador and cap falcon is the bull. You have to abuse his approach, until he tries to mix you up, then perhaps would be a time to fake an aggressive approach, stuff like that. Much airdodge, nair, tilts, and dancing blade. I eat falcon for breakfast tbh you should look at some of my old replays on my channel. Maybe that will give u some helpful ideas.
https://m.youtube.com/my_videos

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm in louisville too. What's your gamer tag?

And at what times in the video are your matches?

Also, tbh capt falcon is one of the least of marth's worries. You have to mix up your baits and approaches.
You are the matador and cap falcon is the bull. You have to abuse his approach, until he tries to mix you up, then perhaps would be a time to fake an aggressive approach, stuff like that. Much airdodge, nair, tilts, and dancing blade. I eat falcon for breakfast tbh you should look at some of my old replays on my channel. Maybe that will give u some helpful ideas.
https://m.youtube.com/my_videos

Not to be rude but doing well against online Falcons isn't the same thing. I eat them for breakfast too but I have a losing streak against the actual Falcon players IRL.

 

[DariusM27]

Not to be rude but doing well against online Falcons isn't the same thing. I eat them for breakfast too but I have a losing streak against the actual Falcon players IRL.

Lol of course they aren't the same thing. My marth offline isn't the same thing eiither. I do well against falcon players at the bourbon/louisiville area that he is in also. Just trying to offer some ideas he may not have considered, buddy.

 

[Xisin]

My tag is Xisin, also the times are in the original post. 1:22:30 for the first twitch url and 0:00 til like 36 mins in on the second twitch url. I'll edit in times on the original post per set in the loser bracket video in like an hour.

 

[DariusM27]

My tag is Xisin, also the times are in the original post. 1:22:30 for the first twitch url and 0:00 til like 36 mins in on the second twitch url. I'll edit in times on the original post per set in the loser bracket video in like an hour.

I just watched the games VS Joey in the first twitch. Your play was solid overall.
At least one unfortunate sd, can't afford those vs Joey, but they happen.

I think the aggressive approach you had was better than being overly campy and under aggressive, and it opened windows for you to get some nice hits in.
Sometimes trying to be aggressive turned into making yourself an easy target, so that's always a challenge we have to deal with.

Rosa was eating you alive with shield in the last round, obviously :/
Honestly, I think pressuring her shield like you did with shieldbreaker might be the edge you needed, though it came late.
Shieldbreaker is more effective VS Rosa overall, since even if she perfect shields it, you'll still probably hit luma.
A well spaced flying shieldbreaker is worth going for depending on the situation.

You should try running and jumping through her with a sh ad, trying to bait out a move and punish with reverse db. That approach is worth trying at least once, especially if you're behind anyway.

Try not to follow her like you did, as she abused dash attack or grab pretty easily that way. On the other hand, you don't want her to back you into a corner. So what you want is to try and be as unpredictable in your movement and approach as possible, which I know is obvious, but that was what was lacking in the final match.

If I was in your situation, where Rosa was just camping and being incredibly defensive, I would counter by trying to be hard for her to catch/hit, and being satisfied by tacking on whatever safe damage I could, and being very patient. Use spacing and movement to force her to move, while not making yourself an easy target.

 

[Locuan]

Played doubles yesterday with @Mr_Sasquatch. Went up against SU | BC and SU | ShadowFox.
http://www.twitch.tv/atxsmash4/v/51001223?t=01h27m03s

Set starts at 1:27:03.

 

[KrakatoaPower]

Guys I dunno if you knew this but someone test this to confirm non tipper jab to a buffered up b is a combo! (At higher percentage)

 

[Nike.]

Hey guys. My local scene has been begging me to play again since the buffs happened. Might give Marth a try again.

 

[DariusM27]

Hey guys. My local scene has been begging me to play again since the buffs happened. Might give Marth a try again.

(Saitama appears)
...ok

 

[Reizilla]

(Saitama appears)
...ok

EXCUSE YOU?!

You don't get to "...ok" the great Nike20!!! THE BLACK AMERICAN DREAM!


Anyway. Shaya. Buy me this custom skin!

And ugh I managed to win more sets today with my pocket Marth that I literally haven't touched since the patch than my mains -___- I'm trying to move on but I can't. Or maybe I shouldn't.

 

[Shaya]

Nah, buy ME that skin.

Nah, don't go.
Brawl Marth skills scaled well enough to cover our asses up to a certain point, but now with the latest patch we got our hairing modifier scaling from 0.4x to at least 0.65x.

You no longer have any excuse losing to people only half as good as you.

SPACING DOWN TILT BOYS. DANCING BLADE BOYS.

 

[Vipermoon]

So we double post and 2 minutes apart? K.

You no longer have any excuse losing to people only half as good as you.

I LOL'd at this

 

[Shaya]

Should more accurately say "half as good as your brawl marth was".

 

[Reizilla]

I doubt they'll ship to Australia ;[

I guess if I get a decent tax return, I'll buy a Wii U so I can give Marth a proper go and the tilt stick he deserves.

Btw how does Marth do against Ness? I've been terrible in that matchup with every character since I dropped Rosalina.

 

[Shaya]

Haven't played a competent Ness anytime recently, but dtilt, fair, counter and respecting up air equates to rock n' roll anecdotally against all the boykids. He just isn't as popular as he used to be.

 

[DariusM27]

Whatever. If you're not pugwest or Mr e, you haven't yet earned my respect with Sm4sh Marth. I don't care if you're m2k or armada. Wanna play this character? Go ahead. You won't just pick him up though, imo. It's a big struggle, no easy wins found here. Another thing, Zero said he was going to pick up Marth, for the same reason. He said he saw the biiig list o buffs. Well, buffing marth is like nerfing Diddy.
Nerfing a broken character will still leave you with one of the best chars in the game.
Buffing a poor character will only get you an average character at best.
And I suspect ZeRo won't be picking up marth, for the same reason He dropped Roy. Turned out he wasn't as good as the hype.

 

[Shaya]

You sound upset/angry about what and at who exactly?

No one ever said he's an easy character.

 

[Vipermoon]

DariusM27 first off, I respect False's Marth more because even in a short time, I saw a great level of knowledge and a real drive to play optimal using that knowledge.

Marth has a broken/good character design for Smash. You say you can't buff this poor character. I say you can, just not in the lazy, thoughtless way they've been doing it.

I admit it's sort of frustrating to see ZeRo, Mr. R, and Ally say things that implies Marth = easy money (I'm sure their hype died by now anyway) but at the same time, this gets the players that look up to these guys check out Marth which is always good. It's more frustrating to hear commentators talk about Marth's nonexistent Dthrow kill confirm, no thanks to Darklink/Colgate.

So while I see where you're coming from, I don't see what your big deal is. Other than Dthrow, only good can come out of it.

 

[DariusM27]

DariusM27 first off, I respect False's Marth more because even in a short time, I saw a great level of knowledge and a real drive to play optimal using that knowledge.

Marth has a broken/good character design for Smash. You say you can't buff this poor character. I say you can, just not in the lazy, thoughtless way they've been doing it.

I admit it's sort of frustrating to see ZeRo, Mr. R, and Ally say things that implies Marth = easy money (I'm sure their hype died by now anyway) but at the same time, this gets the players that look up to these guys check out Marth which is always good. It's more frustrating to hear commentators talk about Marth's nonexistent Dthrow kill confirm, no thanks to Darklink/Colgate.

So while I see where you're coming from, I don't see what your big deal is. Other than Dthrow, only good can come out of it.

I haven't seen false's Marth. I'd like to see what results he gets with him.

I didn't say that Marth can't possibly be buffed, I was talking about the type of buffs and nerds Nintendo has been passing out.

My main thing was just, whenever a well known smasher says they are going to try marth, I'm always a bit skeptical that they will stick with him for very long, if at all, because Marth doesn't have an easy go of it in this game.

 

[Vipermoon]

I am also skeptical about it. Like I said, I get it.

I see it as a compliment though. It's no secret that pretty much everybody has loved Marth throughout Smash histroy. They are (both competitive and casual players) the reason why we still have (and are guarenteed to have) Marth in every Smash game. This love is the reason why non-Marth players tolerate (or even embrace) the Japanese language and the stupidity of Rage Tipper Fsmash (rage + weaker/nerfed DI + 10 kbg buff from other games = stupid) and the old Shield Breaker.

 

[Locuan]

The fact that some of these top players are thinking about playing Marth is enough to get others to try the character. That can only be good. Hypothetically speaking, in that scenario, a lot of Smash 4 players will look into the character. Some might drop him sure, but having an influx of players on a character can help drive said characters meta-game.

 

[Halifax?]

Gimping Ness is a big part for me. Reading the double jump and/or air dodge off stage lands you a hit, and counter on his recovery reduces the distance (get ready to tech incase you **** it up though). Also... FOW is super nice and willing to spread knowledge to the public, next time he streams I'll ask his opinion or just tweet him or something.

 

[FallenHero]

Whatever. If you're not pugwest or Mr e, you haven't yet earned my respect with Sm4sh Marth. I don't care if you're m2k or armada. Wanna play this character? Go ahead. You won't just pick him up though, imo. It's a big struggle, no easy wins found here. Another thing, Zero said he was going to pick up Marth, for the same reason. He said he saw the biiig list o buffs. Well, buffing marth is like nerfing Diddy.
Nerfing a broken character will still leave you with one of the best chars in the game.
Buffing a poor character will only get you an average character at best.
And I suspect ZeRo won't be picking up marth, for the same reason He dropped Roy. Turned out he wasn't as good as the hype.

Who are you talking to? You sound angry that people want to pick up Marth now after being buffed. Also lets not act like pugwest and Mr.E are the only good Marth players or that you have to be at their level to be a respectable Marth player.

 

[predator_21476]

So what is general opinion of Marth after the patch now that the hype may have died down a bit? I know that it used to be a pretty poor opinion of him before. Where would you rank him among the other swordfighters?

 

[Shaya]

He has the best down tilt out of all the sword fighters, although Corrin/Ike's with a different use case are also strong.
I'd put his down tilt as likely one of the best in the game. I don't know who/what competes with his down tilt on the ground, the fact that it's angling upwards as an anti-air and is more pronounced in this way is godlike.

 

[FallenHero]

So what is general opinion of Marth after the patch now that the hype may have died down a bit? I know that it used to be a pretty poor opinion of him before. Where would you rank him among the other swordfighters?

I would rank him higher than Roy at this point, but I think he is only better than Lucina, Roy, Shulk, Robin (does he count?), and Mii Swordfighter.

I feel like it would be kinda cool to just make tier list for swordsmen in this game just for fun. I can't really make one since I don't have a lot of knowledge on most of the other swordsmen, but I would think he would be right in the middle of that tier list. I am not sure if Robin, Pit, and Dark Pit count as swordsmen. I would say Robin is, but the Pits are not really using swords.

 

[predator_21476]

I would rank him higher than Roy at this point, but I think he is only better than Lucina, Roy, Shulk, Robin (does he count?), and Mii Swordfighter.

I feel like it would be kinda cool to just make tier list for swordsmen in this game just for fun. I can't really make one since I don't have a lot of knowledge on most of the other swordsmen, but I would think he would be right in the middle of that tier list.

I thought Robin might be better. I'm not sure though I really have seen much with either character. But I do think he is better than Roy now

 

[FallenHero]

I thought Robin might be better. I'm not sure though I really have seen much with either character. But I do think he is better than Roy now

I don't know anything about Robin, but I've never seen Robin do much to warrant being put above Roy. Then again I have not seen much of Roy in tournament, but whenever I do see these two characters I always Roy perform better than Robin. Almost every time I see Marth in tournament the players perform pretty well.

 

[Vipermoon]

He has the best down tilt out of all the sword fighters, although Corrin/Ike's with a different use case are also strong.
I'd put his down tilt as likely one of the best in the game. I don't know who/what competes with his down tilt on the ground, the fact that it's angling upwards as an anti-air and is more pronounced in this way is godlike.

Certainly it's among the best Dtilts but cases can definitely be made for MK and Swordfighter having better ones. MK's is frame 3, starts actual combos, jab locks, and even trips at a 25% chance. Swordie's is frame 5 and does 8% with Melee Marth/Roy total frames (19) combined with mostly vertical knockback.

Speaking of trips. Frame data question. Marth's Dtilt is supposed to have a 35% trip chance but I don't remember ever tripping someone with it. Why doesn't it trip? Is it the 30 degree kb angle that makes tripping impossible?

 

[predator_21476]

I don't know anything about Robin, but I've never seen Robin do much to warrant being put above Roy. Then again I have not seen much of Roy in tournament, but whenever I do see these two characters I always Roy perform better than Robin. Almost every time I see Marth in tournament the players perform pretty well.

I haven't really seen a Roy do well at all. I've heard of some Robins doing decently though.