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Sexy Poses!: An In-Depth Move Analysis for Zelda - Move #18-20, 22 Up/Down B, Dash A

zeldspazz

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I think Zelda's aerials could be much better with a few simple changes. Such as the following: (Brawl+ developers, I hope you're listening)

- Nair: Make it longer ranged with mild disjoint. Otherwise, it's fine as it is.
- Bair: Make the sourspot marginally stronger, so at the very least you're safe on hit.
- Fair: Instead of having sweetspot/sourspot, make it so that it always does 10% damage and mild knockback, making it a useful combo move rather than a situational killer.
- Uair: Knockback and speed from Brawl, hitbox size from Melee.
- Dair: Make the sourspot do more damage and knockback, so that it actually has some potential to kill people if it doesn't sweetspot.

How does that sound?
I like nair, bair, and uair, but for fair give her sometihng like Ness's fair cus its god and it could actually work with her style of moveset, and simply make dair less laggy and easier to sweetspot. I have gimped some revoeries with a sourspot dair though, so its not complete and total fail.

Give her a Mother boy's dair. Seriously, there have been so many times where I had to deny myself punishment because my only option that I knew I'd get was a dair, and... it's dair. I guess it's not totally unusable if they have some damage on them, but really?
Or this works to ^ lol


Edit: Sorry offtopicness, I vote Dsmash as well, at will be one of the more happy discussions :p
 

Kataefi

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It would be great to get the frame data on nair - I think Olyak aka Kaylo has retired :(
 

choknater

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what, she did? :C

i dunno how to record frame data haha

i just wanna know what frame the first hit of nair hits on, that'd be useful haha
 

KayLo!

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It would be great to get the frame data on nair - I think Olyak aka Kaylo has retired :(
Yeah, I have sort of, lol. Being completely honest. I really do think about it, I just get lazy and/or don't have the time.

i just wanna know what frame the first hit of nair hits on, that'd be useful haha
First hitbox is frame 6.
 

JigglyZelda003

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alright ladies its time to revive this thread......this weekend.

thats when i'll have a new picture up at least

but for the moment do we want to copy the peaches, or do a combo of their thread and this one?
 

KayLo!

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Ooo~

Well, I think that could be a separate thread from this one. But I don't really care which one we do, both are good.

The Peach one is probably more helpful, though, if you only wanna do one or the other..... at this point, I think most of us know how to use Zelda's moveset.
 

JigglyZelda003

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ya. and i think using the peach one will be more productive anyway.

i'll edit it up and have it ready by tomorrowish cause im trying to finish some homework today
 

KuroganeHammer

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SO!

Dat nair.

I feel Nair is a wonderful attack. The move cannot be DI'd or SDI'd out of (Set knockback) for the first 4 hits.

It does moderate damage. 14% is pretty nice.

It eats shields, and oh gawd the platform pressure! <3

Landing before the last hit "autocancels" (Not really) it allowing us followups.

Not exactly sure which hits set the opponent where though, but nair > land before last hit > d-smash has become a bit of a habit with me. :glare:
 

Alacion

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I use this... a lot. I find it useful for ledge-guarding as well.

Fast fall Nair can be a good surprise at times too.
 

Alacion

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Honestly, I use it on a whim. I don't really use it much though. :p
 

KuroganeHammer

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I don't use nair for off the stage much either.

I find it a bit dangerous because of how long the move takes to finish.

It's such a shame that she doesn't have hitboxes on her legs, because tbh that's where she needs them.
 

JigglyZelda003

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thats why they arent there, Sakurai hates Zelda and doesnt want her to have nice things.....

what should happen to this thread? it hasnt been used in forever, but if people want to start it up as a move analysis again i'd be willing too.
 

Alacion

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Which moves have been discussed already?

I'd like to nominate Nayru's Love - it only does everything :).

Ever since finding out about them, I've been doing Love Drops and diagonal Love Jumps like there's no tomorrow (which is probably a bad thing :p).
 

KuroganeHammer

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I'd love to do Nayru's.

Zelda players seem to be split on the move imo.

I use it pretty liberally.

Hey, JigglyZelda, is it possible we could have writeups on the OP? I thought someone did writeups before, but I must be mistaken.
 

JigglyZelda003

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I'd love to do Nayru's.

Zelda players seem to be split on the move imo.

I use it pretty liberally.

Hey, JigglyZelda, is it possible we could have writeups on the OP? I thought someone did writeups before, but I must be mistaken.
there might have been some write ups, or were going to be, but i can attempt to do some after i look through this place.
 

Mocha

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Nair is an unusual move. It seems to send your opponent in different directions, depending on where you're hitting them from. I could be wrong, but also when you tilt the control stick in a certain direction when using nair, it seems like you can kind of 'control' which direction your opponent will go from nair. However, it doesn't seem to control it exactly. For example, when I use nair and slightly tilt the control stick down, it pops my opponent right above me. Here are a couple of things I noticed about nair depending on where I'm hitting my opponent from + tilting control stick:

  • Landing nair in front of opponent + tilt control stick ?: Sends opponent front of me
  • Landing nair behind opponent + tilt control stick ?: Sends opponent behind me
  • Landing nair from above the opponent + tilt control stick down: Pops them above me

This post may be subject to change as I look into it further, and make any changes/corrections.
As for Nayru's Love...

The Love Jump discussion alone will be interesting. Like, did you ever consider moves you can use after Love Jump? You go so high up in the air... if your opponent is above you, it'd be a nice up air - heck even lightning kicks if they're near. Nayru's Love jump follow-ups are situational, though they can be fun =P

Nayru's Love itself isn't the best reflector because of that looong lag at the end, which can be punished if your opponent is in range enough to grab you/attack. It's an okay substitute for down smash when you're trying to hit from behind, but if your opponent starts getting good at shielding all those hits, you may want to mix it up a bit.
 

JigglyZelda003

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Nayru's discussion will start on monday. im going to look and see if anything was mentioned (im backed up on alot of things so i havent gone through here yet) but we'll restart it anyway.

after Nayru's are we just going to vote on the next move, or should we just finish up the specials and move back to normal attacks?
 

JigglyZelda003

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What moves have been completed?
Ftilt, Nair?, and im checking on the others. 18 pages girl 18 pages :X

Edit. the moves discussed so far are Ftilt(lots of pages), Utilt, Dair, Dins, and Nair. i'll begin pulling together a summary of old info and hopefully have Nayru's discussion up by monday
 

JigglyZelda003

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Double posting for attention!!

As for Nayru's Love...

The Love Jump discussion alone will be interesting. Like, did you ever consider moves you can use after Love Jump? You go so high up in the air... if your opponent is above you, it'd be a nice up air - heck even lightning kicks if they're near. Nayru's Love jump follow-ups are situational, though they can be fun =P

Nayru's Love itself isn't the best reflector because of that looong lag at the end, which can be punished if your opponent is in range enough to grab you/attack. It's an okay substitute for down smash when you're trying to hit from behind, but if your opponent starts getting good at shielding all those hits, you may want to mix it up a bit.
Since Mocha has already posted her two cents on it i wanted to quote it to begin our Nayru's Discussion!

so lets discuss!
 

Alacion

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Guess let's start with Love Jump. Incredibly helpful, good initial recovery upwards or diagonally and if needed we can Farore's Wind to reach the stage if we haven't already.

Given how fast you move horizontally when you Love Jump, I've gotten away with a follow up bair while the opponent tries to catch up to you. You can also escape combos like MochaMew said earlier. I've never played with the OoS Love Jump so I guess she can elaborate on that later as well.

Love Drops. Almost totally useless but addictingly fun to play with. It makes for a lulzy surprise when you Love Drop directly to your opponent and catch them off guard. I find that dropping diagonally seems to make you fall faster or maybe covers more distance than a Love Drop directly down, or it could just be me. Due to the lag at the end of Nayru's Love, Love Drops should only be used when you're sure you can't get punished after.

Incidentally, you can do the same with Farore's Wind I guess but you can only move horizontally when using an upward diagonal Farore's Boost. A downward diagonal Farore's Boost is possible too.

Reverse Momentum Cancel. Extremely helpful but can also lead to your early death but that doesn't seem to happen unless you let go of <- or -> too early. Personally, I have trouble properly DI-ing and being able to Momentum Cancel right afterwards (I suck at multitasking so it's either one of the two and I usually go for the latter :<). I definitely use this whenever it's necessary and it'll prove to be extremely useful once you start incorporating this into your game.

As an actual attack, it's a good skill to use sparingly since the lag at the end leaves you open to anything. It's a decent attack that does up to 15% which isn't very bad.

As a reflector, it can be helpful but if you get baited into Nayru's Love-ing too early, you're gonna get punished for it.

I guess Nayru's Love doesn't do what it's supposed to very well but it's still an incredible skill for other purposes. :)
 

KuroganeHammer

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Can you Love Jump (gawd let's rename it. I wanna throw up everytime I use it) from Meteor Smashes?
 

Mocha

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Nayru's Love as a 'Jump'

I'll be honest. When I first heard about Love Jump, I thought it was pretty neat, but gimmicky. I didn't think it would be reliable, and the fact that you lost your second jump scared me. I saw it as another one of those risky, but situational AT's, like ledge canceling with Farore's Wind. But since I'm stubborn and I like to try everything Zelda can do, I decided to play around with it. In the first couple of weeks, I was only able to Love Jump upwards. I didn't find it all that useful really - it just looked cool.

However, after awhile, I began to realize that certain moves and knockback put Zelda in awful places to recover, such as Meta Knight's down smash, which sends Zelda really far horizontally on the screen. Other such devastating knockbacks included anything that would send Zelda very low off stage, which made it easy for people to edgehog her, or worse, Zelda not having enough distance to recover back to the stage.

This is where Love Jump started to become useful for me. With enough practice, I was able to turn around many potential losses of stock. I stepped it up even further, and decided to learn more directions than just upwards with Love Jump, and found ways to apply it to gameplay. As Courier had stated, Love Jumping in different directions, such as diagonally, allows you to escape combos/set ups (I can elaborate on this more if you guys need me to), and as an alternate form of 'recovery'. The nice thing about this is that you can still use your Up B after the Love Jump.

Love Jump OoS is something still fairly new which I've been experimenting with. I'm not sure if you can use this against every attack on your shield, but these are a couple of situations where I've been able to perform this:

- Sonic's spin dash + follow-up
- Meta Knight's glide attack + follow-up
- Pit's glide attack + follow-up

There are some more that I can't remember at the moment, but you might have noticed a lot of these are out of follow-up moves. I don't know why it seems easier to use Love Jump OoS out of follow-ups instead of just regular attacks. Hm… yes, I'm still working on finding uses for Love Jump OoS, but other than it looking flashy, I have not found something game-changing about them yet. Perhaps if your reaction time is fast enough, you can follow up a Love Jump OoS with an aerial, if you predict where your opponent will land ahead of time. For example, if I Love Jump OoS a Sonic spin dash in which he follows up with an up b to down air, I can try something like, Love Jump OoS + Up air. There are many possibilities to follow up Love Jump in general. Be creative =)

Another nice thing about Love Jump is that it protects you from projectiles as you're performing the jump. You know what's fun? Love Jumping when Pit is shooting arrows everywhere, or when he has an arrow loop going. Love Jumping here makes his arrows go crazy. xD Or when Falco is shooting lasers at you. If he shot a laser at you while you were doing a normal jump, it could eat your jump and force you to Up B. In the case of a Love Jump, you can reflect those lasers right back at him, and still have the option to Up B if you need to.

Now after all that good stuff about Love Jump, here are a couple of drawbacks with it. As Fujin had stated, Nayru's Love lags toward the end, which can make you vulnerable to be punished by aerial attacks if your opponents baits your Love Jump. A perfect example of this is Zelda dittos. I would be very careful about Love Jumping in Zelda dittos, especially when you're close to the stage. If the other Zelda is smart, she will wait for that ending lag, and punish with an up air.

Another drawback about Love Jump is if you accidentally don't Love Jump and use a simple Nayru's Love in the air. This can put you in a very difficult situation to recover. In addition to that, if you reverse momentum cancel with Nayru's Love in the wrong direction, it can kill you earlier than if you had DI'd. So be very careful with this.

Some helpful videos if you're new to Love Jump or if you want to try and practice it more:

Love Jumping Tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8djTa_wHqtE&feature=player_embedded

Reverse Nayru's Momentum Canceling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6V4HDXpFIo

Nayru's Love as a Reflector

As stated many times already, Nayru's Love has terrible ending lag. As a reliable reflector, it fails in this area. Slower moving projectiles are easier to handle, such as Pikachu's b move in comparison to faster ones like Falco's lasers and Pit's arrows. Samus's charge beam can also be reflected from a distance. but be careful when you're up close.

In match ups like fighting Diddy, you can use Nayru's Love to reflect his banana and interfere with his banana combos. Yet again, use Nayru's sparingly. Diddy doesn't have to throw a banana at you all the time. He can simply wait for your reflector, and punish the ending lag.

Nayru's Love as an Attack

Most of us know Nayru's Love can be used as an alternate 'Down Smash' when it comes to hitting our opponents from behind us, and wanting to keep the KO potential of Down Smash. There are many hits in this move, making it tricky to shield it, if your opponent is not used to it. Depending on what part of the shards that your opponent tries to shield, it can sometimes shield push your opponent so that you're not as likely to being punished. I would not rely on this though.

Once your opponent becomes comfortable with shielding Nayru's Love, you're going to be punished a lot. This goes in hand with using Nayru's Love as an approach tool. Mix it up and don't be predictable, otherwise this tactic will not help you very much.
 

Mocha

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Can you Love Jump (gawd let's rename it. I wanna throw up everytime I use it) from Meteor Smashes?
You might be able to, depending on the specific Meteor Smash. If it's something like Ganon's, I don't think we can do this. Also, it may be damage dependent. I think the earlier our damage is, the easier it is for us to Love Jump from a Meteor Smash.

Gosh, something like... Love Jumping + Up Airing a Falco after he tries to spike you sounds very tempting. I think this would be very difficult to pull off, but I will test around with this.
 

Mocha

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From my experience of hitting my opponents with Nayru's love and following it up, I've found that if they land in front of me after Nayru's Love, I follow it up with a dash attack, or a dash grab. If you think they'll DI toward you, then you can try F-Smash or Down Tilt.

But yeah, Dash Attack and Dash Grab are pretty useful follow-ups. If they somehow manage to have enough time to land on the stage and shield, go for the grab. If they spot dodge, go for the dash attack.
 

KuroganeHammer

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You might be able to, depending on the specific Meteor Smash. If it's something like Ganon's, I don't think we can do this. Also, it may be damage dependent. I think the earlier our damage is, the easier it is for us to Love Jump from a Meteor Smash.

Gosh, something like... Love Jumping + Up Airing a Falco after he tries to spike you sounds very tempting. I think this would be very difficult to pull off, but I will test around with this.
lol that would be neat.

Does anyone know if Nayru's can be DI'd or SDI'd?

I've never had it happen to me, so I'd assume no?
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Nayru's Love as a 'Jump'

I'll be honest. When I first heard about Love Jump, I thought it was pretty neat, but gimmicky. I didn't think it would be reliable, and the fact that you lost your second jump scared me. I saw it as another one of those risky, but situational AT's, like ledge canceling with Farore's Wind. But since I'm stubborn and I like to try everything Zelda can do, I decided to play around with it. In the first couple of weeks, I was only able to Love Jump upwards. I didn't find it all that useful really - it just looked cool.

However, after awhile, I began to realize that certain moves and knockback put Zelda in awful places to recover, such as Meta Knight's down smash, which sends Zelda really far horizontally on the screen. Other such devastating knockbacks included anything that would send Zelda very low off stage, which made it easy for people to edgehog her, or worse, Zelda not having enough distance to recover back to the stage.

This is where Love Jump started to become useful for me. With enough practice, I was able to turn around many potential losses of stock. I stepped it up even further, and decided to learn more directions than just upwards with Love Jump, and found ways to apply it to gameplay. As Courier had stated, Love Jumping in different directions, such as diagonally, allows you to escape combos/set ups (I can elaborate on this more if you guys need me to), and as an alternate form of 'recovery'. The nice thing about this is that you can still use your Up B after the Love Jump.

Love Jump OoS is something still fairly new which I've been experimenting with. I'm not sure if you can use this against every attack on your shield, but these are a couple of situations where I've been able to perform this:

- Sonic's spin dash + follow-up
- Meta Knight's glide attack + follow-up
- Pit's glide attack + follow-up

There are some more that I can't remember at the moment, but you might have noticed a lot of these are out of follow-up moves. I don't know why it seems easier to use Love Jump OoS out of follow-ups instead of just regular attacks. Hm… yes, I'm still working on finding uses for Love Jump OoS, but other than it looking flashy, I have not found something game-changing about them yet. Perhaps if your reaction time is fast enough, you can follow up a Love Jump OoS with an aerial, if you predict where your opponent will land ahead of time. For example, if I Love Jump OoS a Sonic spin dash in which he follows up with an up b to down air, I can try something like, Love Jump OoS + Up air. There are many possibilities to follow up Love Jump in general. Be creative =)

Another nice thing about Love Jump is that it protects you from projectiles as you're performing the jump. You know what's fun? Love Jumping when Pit is shooting arrows everywhere, or when he has an arrow loop going. Love Jumping here makes his arrows go crazy. xD Or when Falco is shooting lasers at you. If he shot a laser at you while you were doing a normal jump, it could eat your jump and force you to Up B. In the case of a Love Jump, you can reflect those lasers right back at him, and still have the option to Up B if you need to.

Now after all that good stuff about Love Jump, here are a couple of drawbacks with it. As Fujin had stated, Nayru's Love lags toward the end, which can make you vulnerable to be punished by aerial attacks if your opponents baits your Love Jump. A perfect example of this is Zelda dittos. I would be very careful about Love Jumping in Zelda dittos, especially when you're close to the stage. If the other Zelda is smart, she will wait for that ending lag, and punish with an up air.

Another drawback about Love Jump is if you accidentally don't Love Jump and use a simple Nayru's Love in the air. This can put you in a very difficult situation to recover. In addition to that, if you reverse momentum cancel with Nayru's Love in the wrong direction, it can kill you earlier than if you had DI'd. So be very careful with this.

Some helpful videos if you're new to Love Jump or if you want to try and practice it more:

Love Jumping Tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8djTa_wHqtE&feature=player_embedded

Reverse Nayru's Momentum Canceling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6V4HDXpFIo

Nayru's Love as a Reflector

As stated many times already, Nayru's Love has terrible ending lag. As a reliable reflector, it fails in this area. Slower moving projectiles are easier to handle, such as Pikachu's b move in comparison to faster ones like Falco's lasers and Pit's arrows. Samus's charge beam can also be reflected from a distance. but be careful when you're up close.

In match ups like fighting Diddy, you can use Nayru's Love to reflect his banana and interfere with his banana combos. Yet again, use Nayru's sparingly. Diddy doesn't have to throw a banana at you all the time. He can simply wait for your reflector, and punish the ending lag.

Nayru's Love as an Attack

Most of us know Nayru's Love can be used as an alternate 'Down Smash' when it comes to hitting our opponents from behind us, and wanting to keep the KO potential of Down Smash. There are many hits in this move, making it tricky to shield it, if your opponent is not used to it. Depending on what part of the shards that your opponent tries to shield, it can sometimes shield push your opponent so that you're not as likely to being punished. I would not rely on this though.

Once your opponent becomes comfortable with shielding Nayru's Love, you're going to be punished a lot. This goes in hand with using Nayru's Love as an approach tool. Mix it up and don't be predictable, otherwise this tactic will not help you very much.
Cool write I think I'm going to start using the love jump more I just like the way it can catch people off guard. It's cool that someone is at least willing to experiment with the move. When I suggested any of that stuff the amount of hate I got afterwards you would of sworn I pissed in someones cheerios.
 

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Thanks, and good luck with the Love Jumping applications. It takes quite a bit of practice though to get it consistently and not mess up very much. Then again, some people are quick learners, so who knows. And you're right, it does catch people off guard.

I've been testing with a lot of moves and potential combos in general. One may sit there and whine that Zelda can't do anything, but the way I see it is if you just don't even bother trying to experiment with stuff - regardless of whether or not it works - you'll never get anywhere, and you'll be stuck in that same 'ohzeldsucks' phase, and never bring out any potential your character could possibly have.

I have found both useful and not so useful tricks with Zelda. I still think every move has some use in one way or another... it's just a matter of how and when to apply it.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Thanks, and good luck with the Love Jumping applications. It takes quite a bit of practice though to get it consistently and not mess up very much. Then again, some people are quick learners, so who knows. And you're right, it does catch people off guard.

I've been testing with a lot of moves and potential combos in general. One may sit there and whine that Zelda can't do anything, but the way I see it is if you just don't even bother trying to experiment with stuff - regardless of whether or not it works - you'll never get anywhere, and you'll be stuck in that same 'ohzeldsucks' phase, and never bring out any potential your character could possibly have.

I have found both useful and not so useful tricks with Zelda. I still think every move has some use in one way or another... it's just a matter of how and when to apply it.
I do feel as though Zelda is a better character than people give her credit for however, with the negativity of the boards that just makes it even worse for her. It's always better to get in the lab and figure things out for yourself though.
 

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Mhm, I agree. Not saying she is by no means, high tier. Her recovery and poor approaching is what really hurts her. I also don't think Din's Fire, as slow as it is, sucks as much as a lot of Zeldas seem to think. But hey, that's just my opinion =P

inb4Igetonatangentaboutzelda

But seriously though, it's a shame the boards are so negative about her. I think most of it just trolling tbh, but meh. I'll stick to trying to experiment and improve as much as I can.
 
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