Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[RaigothDagon]

I'll say this once again because I know none of you guys keep track of my personal life. My Wii's disc reader is currently broken, and I can't repair it yet. So I have no way of testing this stuff. Thank you for answering some of my questions delxdoom, but I kind of wanted specifics on where to DI after dthrow. I recall from my match that not every time would I be in a position to zair MK, so I'm curious if the reason is because I had wrong DI, too high percentage, or what.


Fthrow is definitely fast, but most often I see MK use fair -> upb as a followup. Any ideas other than airdodging to avoid this?

And interesting choice of aerials to beat off those angry suckers. I think most of the time when I tried it, the hitbox would miss some pikmin completely. I could be wrong, or they could have been stuck to my face. Don't know which.

Also, this thought just occurred to me. If the MK shields the zair, would you be able to grab/dash grab/pivot grab?

 

[KillerJawz]

Same situation here Raigoth, my Wii's disc reader is also broken, I cannot read ANY game right now D:. I guess it's like three weeks for Nintendo now D:

 

[LanceStern]

FOR Raiigoth:

- I DI down and away from him. At lower percentages it should instantly zair UNLESS they run the opposite direction.
- At mid-higher percentages (over 35% I think) I think Samus goes too far up in the air to instantly zair out of it.
- When trying to land, I try to drop as low as possible with MK following me (sometimes MBB stall) and then come up under onto the ledge. Or just DI to the nearest ledge, cause even MK has trouble keeping up with Samus on the ledge.


My own questions:
Why is it Samus is one of the heaviest characters in the game but it seems she dies faster than a lot of lighter characters than her? Poor momentum cancelling? Do we all stink at DI? Shes' too big a target? What is it?

 

[Mr9]

FOR Raiigoth:


My own questions:
Why is it Samus is one of the heaviest characters in the game but it seems she dies faster than a lot of lighter characters than her? Poor momentum cancelling? Do we all stink at DI? Shes' too big a target? What is it?

all of the above man, all of her aerials are slow... well just not as fast as other characters, she is a big target with slow attacks that are punishable, another thing she doesnt fast fall so it does effect her vertical DI.

 

[Throwback]

How do you do an 'instant z-air ledge grab' as noted by lance? A quick search of the main tech thread shows me nothing.

 

[KillerJawz]

I have to disagree with the dying early thing. Provided im sent horizontally, I live to VERY high %s, (Im talking 160+) and still being able to recover. If im sent vertically however, it's a whole different story, I die much earlier then mid weights, but we all know that's because of her fall speed.

Her horizontal momentum cancel is freaking amazing, her vertical not so much....

 

[LanceStern]

I have to disagree with the dying early thing. Provided im sent horizontally, I live to VERY high %s, (Im talking 160+) and still being able to recover. If im sent HORIZONTALLY however, it's a whole different story, I die much earlier then mid weights, but we all know that's because of her fall speed.

Her horizontal momentum cancel is freaking amazing, her vertical not so much....

Do you survive better horizontally or vertically?

How do you instant z tether?

Get as close to the ledge with your back turned to it (best was it to roll to the ledge).

Jump backwards off the ledge (hold down and back at a diagonal) and immediately press Z or whatever you use to tether grab. You should instantly tether grab.

Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0m6...1EAFCFB4&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=73

 

[DelxDoom]

You have a tiny bit of space forward that you can be from your back to the edge.

If you use your getup attack below 100 you can still instaedge from there

 

[KillerJawz]

Do you survive better horizontally or vertically?

Fix'd ^^. Thought you would have gotten the general gist when I said however though x.x

 

[Karcist]

What do all the other Samus mains think of Norfair as a map to counterpick to?

 

[NO-IDea]

Player preference entirely.

Nearly the entire cast can use Norfair in an equivalent, proficient manner. It's simply outsmarting the opponent at that rate.

 

[Mr9]

What do all the other Samus mains think of Norfair as a map to counterpick to?

i dont mind it really its not my first choice but i do go there from time to time because it throws nearly everyone off because nobody really likes that level.

so i recommend learning how to play there just for the element of surprise.

 

[Karcist]

Player preference entirely.

Nearly the entire cast can use Norfair in an equivalent, proficient manner. It's simply outsmarting the opponent at that rate.

Even Falco?

 

[Smash G 0 D]

If Norfair was legal, Ganon would go up on the tier list

 

[Karcist]

If Norfair was legal, Ganon would go up on the tier list

Legal at the tournaments I typically go to.

 

[KillerJawz]

Norfair used to be legal here, but it's recently been banned, along with 7 other stages, including my gorgeous pictochat D:.

Also guys I have a question, I've never actually gotten the jist of why this happens but...

When I do an attack on a platform, in this example I'll use usmash, I fall off of the platform and INSTANTLY perform a uair, but there was nothing to push me off originally, why does this happen?

 

[Karcist]

Norfair used to be legal here, but it's recently been banned, along with 7 other stages, including my gorgeous pictochat D:.

Also guys I have a question, I've never actually gotten the jist of why this happens but...

When I do an attack on a platform, in this example I'll use usmash, I fall off of the platform and INSTANTLY perform a uair, but there was nothing to push me off originally, why does this happen?

You sure your opponent or ally wasn't near you? Him walking (or maybe jumping) near you can push you that little bit necessary.

 

[Mr9]

Norfair used to be legal here, but it's recently been banned, along with 7 other stages, including my gorgeous pictochat D:.

Also guys I have a question, I've never actually gotten the jist of why this happens but...

When I do an attack on a platform, in this example I'll use usmash, I fall off of the platform and INSTANTLY perform a uair, but there was nothing to push me off originally, why does this happen?

something similar to this happens to me but ill pass through the platform and than instantly snap back on the platform and do a down tilt or down smash rather than a Dair

 

[KillerJawz]

You sure your opponent or ally wasn't near you? Him walking (or maybe jumping) near you can push you that little bit necessary.

Nobody was near me D:

 

[LanceStern]

We need a video...

I know if you hit an opponents shield you can fall off and instantly perform something, but now just a ghost fallthrough

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I'm getting chaingrabbed by the ICs.

Player controlled IC(Popo)

OR

The Bish(Nana)

back-throws, then, other IC starts tossing ice blocks. I get forced into the
1 option position(can only stand up from ground).

When I get get back up, if I DIed the right direction(away from the ICs? IDK), and got far enough away, will UpB start before they grab/smash if I'm at high %?

This is all theoretical, BTW.

I'm also assuming the 1st frame(or 2) of UpB has invincibility, in some form. Correct my ignorance, if I'm wrong.

 

[Muz]

No invincibility on Samus's upB, sorry

Best strategy is to not get grabbed, heh. A good IC will not let you di away with ice blocks, but will chaingrab you instead. But if you are getting iceblock locked, best bet is to smash di each hit away so that you can reach the edge sooner. That way even if they do manage to spike you, you're at low enough percent to still upB to the edge.

 

[Zeratulfenix]

Im having trouble pulling off the ledge-hopped grapple beam consistently :/
I either grab the ledge or the grapple doesnt extend the full length usually.

What are the exact commands for that? Is it just my timing?

 

[Muz]

There's 2 types of ledge hop grapples:

1)Shooting your grapple OVER the stage
The first type is easier, and can be done on any stage. To do it, simply press away (not down, which will make you fast fall off) then simultaneously press forward (HOLD) and jump. Almost immediately afterwards press and hold L or R to do an air dodge, then once you are actually over the stage press A. The benefits of this version is that it has the potential to reach further, plus gives you invulnerability during your jump because of the airdodge. Also you have more room to maneuver in response to what your opponent is doing.

2)Shooting your grapple THROUGH the stage.
This is a bit trickier, but the advantage is that it comes out quicker and can really surprise an opponent. Unfortunately, it can only be done on stages with sloped edges like Smashville (easiest) or Battlefield. This is because you'll be taking advantage of Brawl's physics allowing you to rise up, back and then over a sloped ledge despite jumping into it. The other thing this takes advantage of is that a grapple will not try to home in to the edge if your arm is past it, underneath the stage.
To do it, press down from the ledge, then IMMEDIATELY press forward and jump, then Z. The motion is similar to a Hoduken, but you're pressing jump right you press down.

Hope that helps.

 

[Zeratulfenix]

That helps a load, actually. I wasn't airdodging, and doing so really helps. I'm getting it consistent fairly quickly.

 

[LanceStern]

I have a question on staling and refreshing moves.

Do multihit moves refresh others for each hit they make?
- If I grab someone and pummel. Does it stale the pummel with each strike and therefore refresh my other moves by knocking them out the queue?

- If I uair/usmash/fair an opponent. Does it stale the uair/usmash/fair for each hit and refresh my other moves? or does it load as one strike?

 

[Muz]

Multihit moves that raise the combo meter in training mode only add 1 item to the queue. This is apparent because otherwise if I hit with an up-B for 6 hits, then my next up-B would be super weak. Fortunately this is not the case.

Pummeling is a bit odd. From what I remember, you can pummel very fast and only add 1 item to the queue. Or you can take like half a second between pummels, and each pummel would count as its own item in the queue.


----------------------------

Ok I just did some testing and I have to make a corrections:

Raising the "consecutive hits" counter has nothing to do with how much a move adds to the queue.
Two examples show this:
1)In training mode, if you grab an opponent, no matter how fast or slow you hit the opponent it will ALWAYS be considered a "combo". However going to a real brawl and testing it showed me that if I fully staled the D-air(fully fresh does 15% damage, then after 10 in a row only does 7%), then pummeled ten times as fast as i could, that only pushed 1 D-air out of the stale move queue. Meanwhile (also in a real brawl) after again fully staling D-air but this time pummelling slowly 10 times, the next D-air did a full 15% damage.

2)If you shoot 10 charge shots at an opponent but leave a second between each shot, you'll fully stale the move.
(I shot 10 shots like this in a real brawl, bringing opponent from 0% to 20%, then shot a fully charged shot and only did 11% more, compared to the fully fresh 26% max damage)

But if you shoot the 10 charge shots as fast as you can one after the other, it will only add 1 move to the stale move counter.
(I shot 10 shots "rapidfire" in a real brawl, bringing opponentf from 0% to 31%, then shot a fully charged shot and did 23% more damage, which is only slightly stale as fully fresh it does 26%.)

Whats interesting to note here is that shooting 10 rapidfire charge shots still counts as 1 move in the queue, even though it doesn't count as consecutive hits in training mode.



Ok hope that answers your question. It actually clarified something for me too so that test was helpful heh

 

[NO-IDea]

1) If you pummel too fast, they don't show up on the que. But yes, with each strike, the pummel stales and gets added onto the que.

2) All of Samus's multi-hit moves are considered one attack since they're fast enough consecutively.

edit: ninja'd by muz

 

[Muz]

hmm out of boredom I found this video by Xyro:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3JmHLXDhE4

In it he fully stales the charge shot. He then fully refreshes it using jabs. What I found interesting about how he refreshed it was that those 10 jabs seemed to be very close together timewise, whereas 10 pummels have to be pretty far apart (at least it seemed to me). Also when I did my "rapidfire" chargeshot test, the hits on the opponent were further apart, but still counted as a single move in the queue. I wonder what's the explanation for that difference.

 

[KunaiX]

Hi Dear Samus Community,

i got a question about Samus.
Someone made a Dacus with her, where she slide about 3/4 on BF. Does anyone know how it works? Snake was to recover and Samus performed without any outside influences this technique. SO anyone knows how it works?

 

[LanceStern]

i got a question about Samus.
Someone made a Dacus with her, where she slide about 3/4 on BF. Does anyone know how it works? Snake was to recover and Samus performed without any outside influences this technique. SO anyone knows how it works?

show us the video.

I have a question: Does Samus' ftilt tilted up outrange Marth and MKs' fair?

 

[Deleted member]

How do you beat nado with samus >:l

Also, what are her worst matchups

 

[LanceStern]

How do you beat nado with samus >:l

Also, what are her worst matchups

To beat the tornado I guess ordered from most viable to least viable/reliable
Charge shot (anywhere from 1.5 seconds and onward I think (a plasma shot the size as mk).
Uptilt
Ftilt tilted up
Dtilt
Super Missiles
Dair at the top of his tornadoing head
Nair at the upper corner of his head
Zair at the upper corner of his head/tornado


Worst matchups I believe (in order from worst to least worst):

Marth
Olimar
Dedede
Metaknight

I think those are the toughest ones for her. I think Pit is pretty tough as well.

 

[Deleted member]

D3 is so easy for me (i would think its even o_O)
i think wario is his worst, i mean im not an experienced samus player but wario just like completely avoids samus' camp and doesnt die, plus he can kill so early or run clock.

 

[bleyva]

from Gimpyfish's thread on character impressions, in case anyone missed it:

Samus

Samus is just really poorly designed in this game. Samus doesn't seem to have progressed very much if at all in the last few months, and I don't think she really ever will GROW very much. I DO, however, think that she'll go up in the tiers. Why will this happen? Well, the way I figure it we're going to come across a group of the DUMBEST, CAMPIEST samus mains EVER. And yes, I realize that a lot of them play campy now. I'm not talking about camping then getting bored and going for a kill at 200%, I'm talking about the kind of camping where you just NEVER go for the kill. EVER. Almost every tournament match with these few players will go to time and everyone will hate them, but they'll be blatantly the highest placing Samus mains ever. I can't wait. Aside from the megacamp, Samus is really, really, bad.

so, you guys lookin foward to the glorious future of samus supercamping? :3

 

[LanceStern]

D3 is so easy for me (i would think its even o_O)

At another smashfest or tourney, play Awexs' D3 with Samus. It's very easy to rack up damage on a D3 and even combo him, but one grab and he does about 50+ damage to you because he can chain grab Samus really easy. Plus it's hard to KO him whereas his backair and utilt can catch Samus pretty easy, she's like a magnet to hitboxes.

i think wario is his worst,

O_o did you really say that? Samus is a she

i mean im not an experienced samus player but wario just like completely avoids samus' camp and doesnt die, plus he can kill so early or run clock.

Wario I think is 50-50 or 55-45 to Wario. Because he likes to air camp, you can just plug a bunch of projectiles and throw aerials/zair at him until the cows come home.

Hit him with the middle of your zair and then grab him as a frame trap. Samus has a bunch of grab-release combos on him. <- click

 

[KillerJawz]

IMO Samus's worst MUs are:

MK
Olimar
Marth
Falco

D3 is nothing if you know your ledge <3.

Samus v Wario is 50-50 imo.

I always just go to the ledge when MK nados tbh. Bad habit I know D:

 

[Deleted member]

But if you throw out anything against wario he just comes in and gets all nasty with ya XD

D3 is so easy, camp, ledge, up air to up b, ledge, repeat =D

 

[NO-IDea]

Yeah, until you get DQ'd for exceeding ledge grab limit. It's 50 in most areas, and 35 for MLG. In other words, if I see you planking, I'm not going to bother approaching and just laugh as the timer goes down.

Camping the ledge/planking doesn't work. People think MK is gay because of planking. No, he's gay because he's an amazing *** character.

Top 3 Worst MUs IMO:
1) D3
2) Marth
3) Olimar

Wario and MK are up there though. You can't touch a campy Wario on BF. It's hard enough to touch a campy Wario in general for that matter.

 

[ZeroL]

show us the video.

I have a question: Does Samus' ftilt tilted up outrange Marth and MKs' fair?

If you space it properly, it does! For Marth you need to hit the middle of him, just before or after he swung his sword there. For MK it requires precise timing and spacing. Samus' Ftilt comes out at frame 7, MK's Fair works like this:
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out


It's best to buffer the Ftilt right when the first hit of Fair begins, that way it mostly will hit.