Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[Zatchiel]

Sigh.

What MK short hops as an approach? It doesn't work in every MU. It applies.

Dittos show you know the MU of your own character. It's not a true test of skill. A MK that's the best in MK dittos won't win a tournament. An MK that's the best in a majority of MUs will.

(Examples include MKs who have lost to mid-low tiers and/or uncommon high tiers. Look at MLG.)

I wouldn't say being the best at Samus dittos is a worthless title. It just doesn't have as much merit as being the best Samus at other MUs. Although usually owning both titles go hand in hand.

How's the games over there in MD? Ever heard of MK Fair? MK Nair? Both were pretty good options, the latter is even good SH-OoS.
What's he going to approach with? Specials? Grabs? lol?

I also hate Samus dittos :/
Gets pretty desprate when it comes to "First Zair wins." And it forces both Samuses to play duck and cover from each other's spam.

As for anything else, i have NOID.

 

[NO-IDea]

I can't even begin to tear apart your post without feeling bad for you. But, because it's fun, let's start.

MK f-air? Do you ever see an MK space with f-air? Give me replays, please fine one of a good MK that spaces with f-air.

What's he going to approach with? Specials? Grabs? lol?

F-tilt is a much better option than f-air. (For that matter, f-tilt outright beats f-air in the MK ditto as far as spacing goes.) D-tilt works wonders too. He has so many options that for you to even consider f-air over nado/d-tilt/f-tilt/d-air makes you sound like a really really bad player. For you to completely neglect MK's dash speed, and therefore his ability to walk to mid range and punish OoS with dash attack and "grab" tells me you don't know squat. Nearly every character has an answer to rising f-air. It's not MK's best approach. Tell me, what MKs have YOU been playing? Maybe the MK players are punishing your open playstyle with f-air. And punishing with an unsafe move is completely different than approaching with safe pokes that MK has.

MK n-air? Do you ever see MK n-air as an approach? It's a great follow-up and good for reading spot dodges. It's great for abusing invincibility frames off the ledge and ledge-guarding. As an approach? N-air in MK dittos get's punished by n-air (laughably), and it completely ruins MK's frame and range advantage if you just run up to n-air any character's shield.

"First z-air does not win." This is open to interpretation. First z-air that lands? Because it's better to simply outspace your opponent. Meaning you let them commit to z-airing first. First z-air to be shot out does not win.

As for anything else, I have people like you who like to post as if they know something so I can procrastinate from work and tear apart their ignorance.

I apologize if I do not actively advertisement how good I am through replays. Or have a 4,000+ post count and therefore presume I'm good. But I cannot apologize for people like you who post ****ty and false information and therefore mislead people on how MUs are played.

Please please please attempt to continue this argument with your stupidity so I can really show how bad of a player you are. You think this is arrogance? I think this is me telling you to be a better player and think before you post. I don't care if you walk away from this argument either, disliking me and thinking I'm an *******. As long as you walk away realizing "Holy ****, I'm wrong and got called out on it. Maybe I need to take a step back and analyze the subject before posting like I know it."

 

[Zatchiel]

Ok, TL;DR, Summary: You're saying MK is better off grounded? :/
You or your opponent is doing something wrong. Very.

And Fair can pseudo WoP, Nair is one of his best moves, and you're implying that his Ftilt is his best spacing option, at any instance. Jeebus man, what MK are you playing?

 

[NO-IDea]

Ok, TL;DR, Summary: You're saying MK is better off grounded? :/
You or your opponent is doing something wrong. Very.

And Fair can pseudo WoP, Nair is one of his best moves, and you're implying that his Ftilt is his best spacing option, at any instance. Jeebus man, what MK are you playing?

LOL.

What game are you playing? Almost every character in this game is safer grounded. You have the most options in that scenario. You clearly do not have an understanding of Brawl mechanics, no idea of spacing and probably suck at using shield.

I didn't say n-air wasn't one of his best moves. I didn't say f-air couldn't pseudo WoP. Is this how you refute arguments? LOL

I said they both aren't as good compared to his tilts and nado in approaching in nearly all his MUs. And when tilts aren't a safe approach (Snake/Falco), then d-air is the better option still, over f-air and n-air. No where is f-air and n-air safe for approaching. And, to reiterate, approaching and baiting/punishing are different.

So let's recap. I said super missiles are good against characters that short hop (I don't think I have to explain why, but for people like you who exist, maybe I should. You give up the option to shield. You have to land. There is landing lag. It doesn't matter if you air dodge into a missile if you land and the hitbox is still there.)

I further explained that MK doesn't have to SH to approach, given that being grounded (nado, tilts, baiting and punishing with extremely fast ground speed) or being fully airborne (d-air, nado) are better than hitting a shield with f-air and n-air. In other words, SH aerials aren't good approaches on the shield. If you are not hitting a shield and hitting the character while they are suffering ending lag from a move instead, that is called punishing. Usually meaning you are playing badly if providing such an opening.

As of yet you have not proven me wrong. You do like to state that they are good moves. I agree. Do go on.

EDIT: For you to improve your future argumentation skills. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[Xyro77]

Hi! My name is Noid! Would you like a pancake?

Yes i would! Thank you, captain.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

^ Haha, I don't get it but it's funny and kinda cute.

@NOID Also, interesting stuff about straw man. Didn't know that was one of the fallacies. Anyway, you said super missiles are good against SH characters. Would this be a grounded super missile or a SH/FH one? I'm guessing you're talking about grounded, since SH itself would take a certain amount of frames, making grounded quicker? Just wanna make sure I get the whole picture.

 

[NO-IDea]

Grounded. If you do take on this strategy, you have to time it rather than spam it. Given enough distance, lead a SH homing into grounded super. But otherwise, just one grounded super missile is good enough. Time the super missile so that it lays where they land if they completely commit to short hopping towards you. If space allows, foxtrot back and repeat.

Ideally, you want them to land within f-tilt distance. A)Because that's Samus's best range (dash attack, f-tilt, d-tilt, standing grab (comes out in 14 frames. Standard human reflex, accounting for andrenaline, is still about 10 frames. Meaning they also have to input the command as well. Any slower than that and the grab lands. In other words, they have to be able to predict to dodge. If you're spamming projectiles and using f-tilt correctly, they should have a spam shield mindset already.) And B)Super missile from that distance covers their option to roll as well. Outspace them and f-roll/b-roll usually places them in front of you.

@Xyro: Remember how I mentioned how much I love/hate your ability to find the most ridiculous .gifs out there? Touche.

 

[Xyro77]

For maximum spacing, dtilt and ftilt are great cept d tilt has MASSIVE lag and every time its shielded u should be getting punished for it. F tilt is nice too but ive almost always had it powershield and then got punished for it. As for dash attack, i gotta use that more often.


I personally find that staying mobile and then retreating to ledge(when you know its getting hot and heavy) is the way to go. I say this because she is SO LIMITED while on the ground.....unless u can Powershield nearly everything the foe gives you or the foe cant PS everything you give him.

 

[Zatchiel]

Almost every character in this game is safer grounded.

And with this statement, i subside.

Thank you for your time.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ6nziBqJIU&feature=related

You don't have to explain. But next time, don't create false elaborations about MK until you actually KNOW MK.

 

[NO-IDea]

ROFLLMAO.

Man, you are really bad. You sure that's the right video you want to show me? All I see is M2K using retreating f-airs against Seibrik's grounded playstyle. Did you ever see the f-air hit Seibrik's shield? He's not trying to connect it. If he does, Seibrik can up+b OoS the f-air. He's trying to bait an approach and catch the starting frames of MK's dash. Not approaching. Do I have to go over what camping means with you too? Not once did you see M2K move forward with f-air unless used as a follow-up.

How often did you see Seibrik, ranked #1 in Florida, use f-air as an approach? I saw it as a punish. For that matter, how often did you see Seibrik leave the ground when both MKs were in a neutral position?

Did you see n-air once as anything but a punish or punished? (Let me answer that for you. One time was punished with n-air OoS (did I not call that in my previous post?) Once used as a kill move to punishing landing lag from up+b. Once used while abusing invincible frames off ledge (again, did I not state that?)

I've personally played Seibrik, taught him some of the tricks in the Samus MU and watched him teach Omni the MK MU back at Pound IV.

You need to learn how to watch and learn from replays. Again, you exhibit no knowledge of shield mechanics and spacing. Do continue to make a fool out of yourself.

Thanks for the instructional video. I'm sure I taught you and everyone else reading valuable lessons.

EDIT: Just a further anaylsis of the video. No, you do not see d-air being used. You never want to be above an MK in the first place. No you do not see nado being used as an approach. MK has the ground speed and OoS options to punish it. But yes, you do see a ton of f-tilts being used for approaching.

Anyway, that's it for now folks. Until LP makes the next dumb post.

EDIT2: Que in Xyro .gif.

 

[KillerJawz]

Stop flaming people or infractions will be given out, this applies to everyone in the thread.

 

[NO-IDea]

I'll be nice...er. Sorry.

 

[Zatchiel]

Not flaming NOID, he's just not being clear enough.
I'll take what i have and turn to the MK boards for questioning, as i'm doing wrong in asking questions regarding MK's approach and retreat options here :/

 

[KillerJawz]

No I was correct in my wording, there was obvious flaming going on in earlier posts.

Do report your findings from the MK boards, as I am quite curious myself.

 

[Choice]

is samus's nair sposed to be any good? i've been using it a lot off stage edge guarding other low tier characters and i feel like it's been working fairly well. soft nair -> anything is what i typically do. samus is pretty fun to play.

 

[KillerJawz]

Nair is a very good gimper on characters with poor recoveries, it's also tied fastest for fastest aerial coming out (frame 5, same as uair). Nair is also a good combo breaker, and can get you out of a lot of chains.

 

[Zatchiel]

What KJ said. It's maily used as a defensive tactic, and its offstage use is considerably good.
If you're going offensive, use Zair, Uair, and on occasion, Fair is pretty good too, FF is even better.

 

[IsmaR]

is samus's nair sposed to be any good?

Absolutely. But if you master its use, I'll have to kill you. Try using it more on platform-heavy stages.

 

[Choice]

why would you have to kill me? =/

 

[Zatchiel]

Absolutely. But if you master its use, I'll have to kill you. Try using it more on platform-heavy stages.

Correct. On stages like BF, a hitbox exhausted Nair can set up for a Jab-Lock at low%'s, directly out of a platform drop when the opponent goes off the platform by Defenestration.

 

[Choice]

i dunno what kind of hacks you have for BF, but mine does not have any windows.

 

[NO-IDea]

Not flaming NOID, he's just not being clear enough.
I'll take what i have and turn to the MK boards for questioning, as i'm doing wrong in asking questions regarding MK's approach and retreat options here :/

Is it not clear enough because of terminology? Perhaps your definition of "approaching" does not meet Brawl's definition, or any fighting game's definition of approaching. You cannot define the word through a dictionary when discussing it in terms of competitive gaming, or think of the word as merely an offensive strike. You have to consider positioning (control of the stage), spacing (full utilization of hitboxes), and timing (frame data) when analyzing whether a move can be used as an approach in a particular MU. On that note, you also should re-analyze what your definition of camping is as well. Visit the Brawl Tactical Discussion thread (I know you lurk like a monster on smashboards, how else do you get that many posts) and read Pierce's thread on camping.

I explained the utility of such moves in thorough enough detail, at least enough for understanding on the Samus boards. I could go into further detail, but that would be a waste of time, saved for only those that do wish to improve in their MK MU.

I cannot help those who are willfully ignorant. If you need further explanation (because I explained what exactly occurred in that video thorough enough IMO. I don't see where the confusion is), I would be more than happy to assist you. But merely stating "he's not being clear enough" without telling me what is unclear informs me you only wish to walk away from this argument and learn nothing instead of accepting answers that are not your own and learn from this discussion.

This is a tactical discussion thread. If you cannot bring anything to the table, posting videos without explanation (other than what appears to be M2K spamming f-air but is really producing a brick wall (which btw could still have been broken and Seibrik has learned since then. That was Winterfest. He's gotten better.)), please don't post here to increase your post count and be unproductive.

 

[Zatchiel]

*Skips*

2 words: Too long.
And thanks for the brief explain.

Just needs more Q&A, less read and reply my man.

 

[IsmaR]

Not helping, broski. It be best to avoid that to end this.

 

[KillerJawz]

Yes, just avoid this.

Should a single snide remark come from any of you, I shall lay down the mighty Zair of Justice.

Now, Platform Cancelling with Samus. What can we REALLY do with it?

DISCUSS.

 

[Zatchiel]

Please explain to me your meaning of PCing.
I've got 3 different definitions from 3 different character boards :/

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Isn't platform cancelling using a move that allows you to land on (moving?) platform with the short amount of frames possible? I've heard from a friend that Marths platform cancel with dair (that's what I remember him saying, but I might be mistaken since I was half-asleep at the time haha). We are supposed to platform cancel by pressing down + Zair correct? Then we land on the platform as quickest as possible.

I personally don't find much use for platform cancelling. I guess we could to it and follow up with angled ftilt or maybe Charge/Plasma shot for surprise, even though there's a lot of start up time. I honestly rather abuse uair or just zair poke through platforms rather than bring Samus to her grounded game. Might have some use to trick people? I'm not entirely sure haha.

 

[KillerJawz]

We can platform cancel with dair as well, also, fun fact:

If we platform cancel the very edge of the platform on smashville, our grab covers the entire floating platform.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Hmmm, you know how if you hold down after laying a bomb you reduce the amount of lag - does that only work grounded or can it work in the air? I know bombs are terrible, but I wanna essssperiment with them more.

 

[KillerJawz]

It works in both the air and ground. I do that quite regularly against Peaches, makes it difficult for them to not get shield poked on the platforms.

 

[Choice]

you mean if you hold down after you use down b?

 

[Darkshadow7827]

you mean if you hold down after you use down b?

yea, you hold down on the analogue stick after laying a bomb. It reduces lag, but even then - it's still a really laggy move haha.

Edit: I don't know the mechanics behind it, or why it even works like that, but apparently it does. I forgot what it's called, but it's somewhere in the thread with all the ATs.

 

[Choice]

alright yea sweet. i hope low tier tourneys start happening more often so i can use samus. she's really fun to play.

 

[NO-IDea]

Raigoth Bomb Tech. I haven't seen that dude in a while.

It's just buffering. Buffer the crouch to cancel the lag, then buffer the next input as whatever action you want to take. D-tilt is easiest (you're already crouching). Useful for forcing space in between you and opponent; be sure to use the tech in case they attempt to capitalize on bomb timing (since it won't explode on impact anymore.)

Doesn't necessarily improve position, but doesn't hurt either. Mostly useful in ICs MU.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Raigoth Bomb Tech. I haven't seen that dude in a while.

It's just buffering. Buffer the crouch to cancel the lag, then buffer the next input as whatever action you want to take. D-tilt is easiest (you're already crouching). Useful for forcing space in between you and opponent; be sure to use the tech in case they attempt to capitalize on bomb timing (since it won't explode on impact anymore.)

Doesn't necessarily improve position, but doesn't hurt either. Mostly useful in ICs MU.

Ah, that actually makes a lot of sense. I should've been able to see the reason, especially with all the uses of crouch cancelling for jabs and whatnot. Interesting that it works for B-moves. I learned something today.

 

[Choice]

it works in the air as well though, correct? you cant crouch in the air

 

[Darkshadow7827]

it works in the air as well though, correct? you cant crouch in the air

Well... that's because... hmmmm... Another good point brought up. I have no clue. Now I'm curious all over again hahaha. -Waits for someone to answer.-

Edit: NOID said it's buffering so does that mean if we don't do a move in the air, we get full lag?

 

[NO-IDea]

When you're landing after the bomb, you're buffering the crouch. The same concept of buffering a move/dash/spot dodge out of an air dodge. So yes, it does work in the air (if you land afterwards.) Otherwise, if it's fully in the air, no you cannot cancel the lag.

 

[Choice]

ahh ok, so it only works whenever you touch the ground.

 

[Zatchiel]

I used Zair on a Falcon @ PS1, Water transformation field. The Zair was scrunched beside the Windmill, but Falcon (Who was directly behing the section of the Windmill) took the damage and knockback of a tipper Zair.

Can someone please elaborate? I can find better use for this.