Sigma Busters (Name Pending): Official Discussion Thread

[Kirbeh]

This is not the write up, just a regular post.

My brother is already working on some sprites for Aremi, it's mostly close to the orignal design, though the proportions have been edited to better fit a platform fighter (such as a shorter body and slightly bigger head) there is also a chance that she would mainly wear her hood up rather than down, as that feels more natural in a game like this.

You might have to elaborate on this as I don't quite follow. How does altering the proportions fit a platform fighter “better”. Characters of all sorts of heights and proportions fit just fine, including other characters on your own roster. And if your making Aremi shorter, just how small is Weevle supposed to be? If she's going down to like, Pichu size, then I'll need to do another complete redesign.

Same thing with the hood. I'm fine either way, but your wording seems off. What makes keeping the hood up “more natural?” If that's your preference, just say so, no need to tip toe around and try to find some other justification.

Yeah, I made the mass rework since I felt the old set was a bit gimmicky, but I do feel the new rework does need a bit more work. I should maybe cut down on all the tornado-based moves of other characters but sometimes it's hard to think of a good Up Charge attack.

Hmm I notice I have some core issues when making move sets, but I can't put my finger on the exact issues, but I do want to fix them somehow.

I have noticed that over the many move sets, both the original versions and the reworks, the moves you seem to over-rep are boomerang projectiles, spinning Up Smashes, spinning style specials (Mario Tornado, Darkest Lariat, etc.), and more recently Up Specials that end in dropkicks as you gave those to both EPSILON and Chell. Also moves that trip, and tbh, sometimes I wonder whether you're actually talking about Smash Bros. tripping or just a knockdown state like in traditional 2D fighters. Can you clarify?

Otherwise, the main issue I find with your move sets is just the number of ideas you try to squeeze in. It varies by character, but you have had some cases where the focus seems to continuously shift. And at a conceptual stage that's fine, you're still trying to figure what exactly you want characters to do, but if you have a bunch of extra ideas for a character you have to find the cutoff point somewhere. If you can't fit everything, save it for a future character.

On the flip side you also have cases where the move sets seem to not take full advantage of the character concept. The original Ahab move set for example where you had him as a mostly straight forward boxer despite being a big whale alien. And speaking of:

Critique time.

Ahab

Spoiler

Appearance - Mobius takes design inspiration from sperm whales, having a box-shared head, toothy mouth, and gray color palette. Unsurprisingly, Mobius also has a large frame, being the among the biggest of the cast physically, and wears a typical boxing tank top and a pair of cyan boxing gloves. His elbows are encrusted with barnacles to emphasize how rugged he is, and periodically his blowhole spews steam, which becomes more pronounced on higher percent.

So, this is something I'd forgotten to touch on previously, but why does he blow steam? Is it just to reference Smash Bros.?

Archetype - Bruiser
Gimmick - Lighter than Air, Heavier than Stone

• Ahab's species is able to absorb air to give their bodies surprising agility, letting him jump up to 3 times in the air.

Not a criticism, but is having multiple jumps something to necessarily describe as a gimmick? It's not universal but it's still a fairly common trait in platform fighters. There are always a good number of characters with multiple jumps. I think it'd be better to add an attributes section that lists stuff like the number of jumps a character has plus a few other details like whether they can wall jump and other stuff like that.

Ground Moves:
Jab - Hammerhead Combo - A quick right hook, followed by a straight left punch, and ending with a strong headbutt.
Forward Tilt - Fishing Line - A quick left hook, press again to combo into a downward swing to launch foes upwards.
Up Tilt - Updraft - A short truncated uppercut, useful for juggling opponents though range is quite middling.
Down Tilt - Wave Breaker - A leg sweep using Ahab's tail, pushing opponents forward and has a potential to trip if you hit the sweetspot.
Back Tilt - Side Clocker - A sideswipe with Ahab's left fist to clock the opponent, has quite high downwards knockback.
Dash Attack - Sea Leg Sweeper - Ahab comes to a quick stop while plunging low to swing at an opponent's legs, knocking them down.

I notice you kept my moves but changed the descriptions a little?

The second hit of F-Tilt was intended to cause a ground bounce which would lead to follow-ups/juggle opportunities.

And Up Tilt was already described as being short, so I don't know why you also added "truncated."

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge - Hull Smasher - Ahab steps forward to delivering a strong body blow, spiking in the middle of the attack.
Up Charge - Tornado Uppercut - Charging with wind, Ahab performs with a spiraling uppercut, strong KO tool and juggling tool.
Down Charge - Tough Twister - Bending down, Ahab performs a spinning punch all around his body. While the weakest of the three charge attacks, this attack has heavy armor and hits both sides, a good keep away tool.

Why did you add a random spike to Forward Charge?

We approached the Charge moves differently, so let me explain my choices. The ship themed naming of FC and UC was inspired by Ahab's Moby **** inspiration (and Monstro from Pinocchio). Hull Smasher and Mast Breaker as moves describing destroying parts of a ship much like a heavy storm or some kind of rampaging sea creature.

Mast Breaker is intended to be a high damage KO move that has Ahab extend his range as far as he can. It's a big, high reaching uppercut with high end lag.

Tornado Blow as Down Charge on the other hand was where I tried to incorporate some of the wind powers by making it a juggle tool/combo starter. The idea is that while it only hits one side, it starts low, being able to scoop up crouched or small characters easily who might otherwise duck under some of his other moves.

It starts low, but launches upward to set up for juggles with Up Tilt, etc.

The replacements you gave are fine however:

Up Charge is yet another spinning move. In Ahab's case though, I think it's far more fitting given the wind powers. Ditto for Down Charge even if it seems a little awkward in execution for a big boxer.

With that in mind though, I would say you should replace Hull Smasher as well.

One more thing on Up Charge. How do you intend to make it both a KO option and juggling tool? Those are opposite functions.

Aerials:
Neutral Air - Bluster Spinner - A spinning attack with Ahab's arms, like a tornado, a good horizontal combo tool.
Forward Air - Big Clocker - A forward punch that deals a nasty spike—a simple attack sure but an effective one.
Up Air - Anchor Arms - Flexing one of his arms upwards and one of his arms downwards, he performs this styling attack with frame 1 invincibility but high end-lag.
Down Air - Quick Bluster - A quick series of diagonally downward strikes, while weak in terms of sheer power, it's very fast speed (Frame 2) lets it be a good combo move into itself.
Back Air - Backdraft - A sideways swing with the fists, creating a crest of wind backwards to add a bit of extra range.

Anchor Arms was named for the pose, you should probably change the name to match the new function.

Grabs:
Pummel - Clinch - A grappling punch, among the fastest pummels in the game.
Forward Throw - Breaching Blow - A swing over the shoulders to crash opponents downwards.
Down Throw - Downer Socket - A crouched down uppercut to launch foes upwards.
Back Throw - Spinning Tosser - Ahab spins around and tosses the foe backwards.
Up Throw - Blue Cyclone - Ahab jumps in the air, then crashes into the floor for a powerful piledrive.

Breaching Blow is a swing over the shoulders? Like a judo throw? On a boxer? Given the nature of the character I think having some none boxing moves is fine, but this one seems particularly odd.

Down Throw is an uppercut? Kinda weird placement tbh.

I realize I didn't elaborate enough on my Back Throw, but I think we actually have a similar idea here. What I had in mind for Whirlwind Toss was for Ahab to lift the opponent while still clinching them and quickly perform a 360 spin where he lets go at the end and sends them flying.

With the changes to NAIR, UAIR, Up Throw, Side Special, etc. are you sure you're not transitioning Ahab from a boxer into a wrestler/grappler?

Specials:
Neutral Special - Twister Punch - Gathering the air around his fists, Ahab charges a powerful forward jab that later makes the air crackle as the vacuum made around his fists pops. This crackle results in a strong sweet spot for the punch.

• Neutral Hyper - Storming Punch - While the punch itself is weaker than the normal attack, the punch itself creates a windbox to push the opponent off-stage.

Side Special - Cyclone Spinner - A lariat that deals multiple hits of strong damage, it can also be used as a horizontal recovery while in the air, though it sends Ahab into freefall afterwards.

• Side Hyper - Hurricane Spinner - A quicker cyclone lariat that has better vertical recovery is the button is mashed.

Down Special - Storm Uppercut - A powerful charged uppercut that usually takes a while to charge, but if Ahab gets hit the charge gets ended automatically so Ahab can perform a quicker but weaker punch upwards as a counter.

• Down Hyper - Upper Drafter - Ahab jumps up in the air to perform a spiraling uppercut similar to a tornado. He can act after the end of this move's animation.

Up Special - Steam Geyser - Propelled by hot steam from his blowhole, Ahab performs a powerful body slam that can be aimed in the air.

• Up Hyper - Steam Powered Assault - The attack lasts longer and has a powerful sweetspot in the end due to Ahab spinning very powerfully, however unlike the normal special this does send Ahab into freefall after use. Better used as an offensive move than a mobility tool

I don't see the overall utility of Down Special? Is it like an uppercut version of a Falcon Punch?

If so, I don't think interrupting the attack should result in a counter. That punishes the opponent for making the right call. I suppose they could still grab or just wait for the move to end before approaching but it seems weird to give the move a second automatic option as a safety net when it's meant to be a high risk/high reward attack.

Also, with the Hyper version basically turning it into Mac's Rising Upper, why not just make it an Up Special?

And speaking of Up Special, you're incorporating steam now? Plus, with the steam coming from his blowhole, it's going to propel him in the opposite direction. How is it intended to animate? He would need to start the move upside down for it be used upward.

I already addressed Side Special above.

Neutral is just custom DK neutral. Nothing inherently wrong with that, just be careful with the balancing.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Cyclone Boost - Ahab boosts himself in the air as he spawns a lingering tornado, anyone caught in the tornado will also be launched upwards.
Level 2 - Thunderclap - Ahab claps, summoning an explosive cloud that goes upwards, using any attack will cause the cloud to explode into an electrical burst.
Level 3 - Aerodynamics - An install-based Hypermax that surrounds Ahab in wind. While in this state, his jumps, ground speed and air speed are higher.

Thunderclap is another kind of an out of nowhere move. His whole shtick is wind and all of a sudden you have a storm cloud/electricity.

Like I expressed earlier in the post, it really feels like you still don't have a fully concrete idea on what you want Ahab to be.

 

[Glubbfubb]

This is not the write up, just a regular post.



You might have to elaborate on this as I don't quite follow. How does altering the proportions fit a platform fighter “better”. Characters of all sorts of heights and proportions fit just fine, including other characters on your own roster. And if your making Aremi shorter, just how small is Weevle supposed to be? If she's going down to like, Pichu size, then I'll need to do another complete redesign.

Same thing with the hood. I'm fine either way, but your wording seems off. What makes keeping the hood up “more natural?” If that's your preference, just say so, no need to tip toe around and try to find some other justification.



I have noticed that over the many move sets, both the original versions and the reworks, the moves you seem to over-rep are boomerang projectiles, spinning Up Smashes, spinning style specials (Mario Tornado, Darkest Lariat, etc.), and more recently Up Specials that end in dropkicks as you gave those to both EPSILON and Chell. Also moves that trip, and tbh, sometimes I wonder whether you're actually talking about Smash Bros. tripping or just a knockdown state like in traditional 2D fighters. Can you clarify?

Otherwise, the main issue I find with your move sets is just the number of ideas you try to squeeze in. It varies by character, but you have had some cases where the focus seems to continuously shift. And at a conceptual stage that's fine, you're still trying to figure what exactly you want characters to do, but if you have a bunch of extra ideas for a character you have to find the cutoff point somewhere. If you can't fit everything, save it for a future character.

On the flip side you also have cases where the move sets seem to not take full advantage of the character concept. The original Ahab move set for example where you had him as a mostly straight forward boxer despite being a big whale alien. And speaking of:

Critique time.

Ahab

Spoiler

So, this is something I'd forgotten to touch on previously, but why does he blow steam? Is it just to reference Smash Bros.?



Not a criticism, but is having multiple jumps something to necessarily describe as a gimmick? It's not universal but it's still a fairly common trait in platform fighters. There are always a good number of characters with multiple jumps. I think it'd be better to add an attributes section that lists stuff like the number of jumps a character has plus a few other details like whether they can wall jump and other stuff like that.



I notice you kept my moves but changed the descriptions a little?

The second hit of F-Tilt was intended to cause a ground bounce which would lead to follow-ups/juggle opportunities.

And Up Tilt was already described as being short, so I don't know why you also added "truncated."



Why did you add a random spike to Forward Charge?

We approached the Charge moves differently, so let me explain my choices. The ship themed naming of FC and UC was inspired by Ahab's Moby **** inspiration (and Monstro from Pinocchio). Hull Smasher and Mast Breaker as moves describing destroying parts of a ship much like a heavy storm or some kind of rampaging sea creature.

Mast Breaker is intended to be a high damage KO move that has Ahab extend his range as far as he can. It's a big, high reaching uppercut with high end lag.

Tornado Blow as Down Charge on the other hand was where I tried to incorporate some of the wind powers by making it a juggle tool/combo starter. The idea is that while it only hits one side, it starts low, being able to scoop up crouched or small characters easily who might otherwise duck under some of his other moves.

It starts low, but launches upward to set up for juggles with Up Tilt, etc.

The replacements you gave are fine however:

Up Charge is yet another spinning move. In Ahab's case though, I think it's far more fitting given the wind powers. Ditto for Down Charge even if it seems a little awkward in execution for a big boxer.

With that in mind though, I would say you should replace Hull Smasher as well.

One more thing on Up Charge. How do you intend to make it both a KO option and juggling tool? Those are opposite functions.



Anchor Arms was named for the pose, you should probably change the name to match the new function.



Breaching Blow is a swing over the shoulders? Like a judo throw? On a boxer? Given the nature of the character I think having some none boxing moves is fine, but this one seems particularly odd.

Down Throw is an uppercut? Kinda weird placement tbh.

I realize I didn't elaborate enough on my Back Throw, but I think we actually have a similar idea here. What I had in mind for Whirlwind Toss was for Ahab to lift the opponent while still clinching them and quickly perform a 360 spin where he lets go at the end and sends them flying.

With the changes to NAIR, UAIR, Up Throw, Side Special, etc. are you sure you're not transitioning Ahab from a boxer into a wrestler/grappler?

I don't see the overall utility of Down Special? Is it like an uppercut version of a Falcon Punch?

If so, I don't think interrupting the attack should result in a counter. That punishes the opponent for making the right call. I suppose they could still grab or just wait for the move to end before approaching but it seems weird to give the move a second automatic option as a safety net when it's meant to be a high risk/high reward attack.

Also, with the Hyper version basically turning it into Mac's Rising Upper, why not just make it an Up Special?

And speaking of Up Special, you're incorporating steam now? Plus, with the steam coming from his blowhole, it's going to propel him in the opposite direction. How is it intended to animate? He would need to start the move upside down for it be used upward.

I already addressed Side Special above.

Neutral is just custom DK neutral. Nothing inherently wrong with that, just be careful with the balancing.


Thunderclap is another kind of an out of nowhere move. His whole shtick is wind and all of a sudden you have a storm cloud/electricity.

Like I expressed earlier in the post, it really feels like you still don't have a fully concrete idea on what you want Ahab to be.

An elaborate on my brother, his artstyle is more-in line with the old design philosophy of Smash Bros, that is, to emphasize the most notable elements of the character's moveset and incorporate them into the design, in Aremi's case, that is the head and to a lesser extent, the feet due to most of Aremi's attacks either being fire-charged kicks, breathing fire, or shooting out her head. Hence why a slightly bigger head and pointed shoes are his main focus when designing Aremi's sprites. Does that make sense?

About the critiques, that is sorta the reason I disliked Ahab and originally wanted to cut him, his kit just never really clicked with me, and he seems to be more in line with a rivals of aether character due to the whole wind gimmick.

 

[Kirbeh]

An elaborate on my brother, his artstyle is more-in line with the old design philosophy of Smash Bros, that is, to emphasize the most notable elements of the character's moveset and incorporate them into the design, in Aremi's case, that is the head and to a lesser extent, the feet due to most of Aremi's attacks either being fire-charged kicks, breathing fire, or shooting out her head. Hence why a slightly bigger head and pointed shoes are his main focus when designing Aremi's sprites. Does that make sense?

Yes and no.

The first half is not a design philosophy of Smash Bros. I honestly don't know where you're getting this from.

The closest thing to that would actually be Street Fighter which traditionally enlarged the feet and hands on characters to improve readability on their attacks.

Smash Bros. does not do this. The characters have their normal proportions and instead have simulated squash and stretch by enlarging and shrinking certain body parts during certain attacks or having prominent hit effects surrounding those parts in place of changing size.

Also, based on previous conversations I thought you'd opted to give Aremi sneakers instead? Less important, but I thought this was still the case and already included them in the sketches I'm making for her model sheet and key art. I assumed that Wyrm was the one that's supposed to have the pointed/clog style shoes now.

About the critiques, that is sorta the reason I disliked Ahab and originally wanted to cut him, his kit just never really clicked with me, and he seems to be more in line with a rivals of aether character due to the whole wind gimmick.

I still don't see what your hang up with Rivals is when you readily borrow ideas from so many other things.

Either way, as part of the write up, there is another Ahab rework included there. I suppose we can see what you think of it once it's done and if you're still not feeling Ahab then I guess he's benched/cut.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Yes and no.

The first half is not a design philosophy of Smash Bros. I honestly don't know where you're getting this from.

The closest thing to that would actually be Street Fighter which traditionally enlarged the feet and hands on characters to improve readability on their attacks.

Smash Bros. does not do this. The characters have their normal proportions and instead have simulated squash and stretch by and enlarging and shrinking certain body parts during certain attacks or having prominent hit effects surrounding that part in place of changing size.

Also, based on previous conversations I thought you'd opted to give Aremi sneakers instead? Less important, but I thought this was still the case and already included them in the sketches I'm making for her model sheet and key art. I assumed that Wyrm was the one that's supposed to have the pointed/clog style shoes now.


I still don't see what your hang up with Rivals is when you readily borrow ideas from so many other things.

Either way, as part of the write up, there is another Ahab rework included there. I suppose we can see what you think of it once it's done and if you're still not feeling Ahab then I guess he's benched/cut.

My brother is still working on his set of sprites, so I don't know exactly what will be changed, either way it won't be exactly the same from your design, its mostly close but there have been some design changes, just want to let you know.

 

[Kirbeh]

My brother is still working on his set of sprites, so I don't know exactly what will be changed, either way it won't be exactly the same from your design, its mostly close but there have been some design changes, just want to let you know.

Whenever the basic standing sprite is complete, post it here so I can change the art accordingly. Thankfully it's still just sketches so I don't have to redo as much work as I would have had I started line art and coloring/shading.

You didn't address the other two points.

Where'd you source the incorrect info on Smash Bros. design?

Do you have any requests or suggestions for Ahab while I'm still making the rework? Any moves you feel are must haves or changes in direction you think would be better? I can try taking them into account and combining them with the other changes. Or if you're that unsure/mixed on Ahab as a whole, should I even bother? Would you prefer to just drop him now?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Whenever the basic standing sprite is complete, post it here so I can change the art accordingly. Thankfully it's still just sketches so I don't have to redo as much work as I would have had I started line art and coloring/shading.

You didn't address the other two points.

Where'd you source the incorrect info on Smash Bros. design?

Do you have any requests or suggestions for Ahab while I'm still making the rework? Any moves you feel are must haves or changes in direction you think would be better? I can try taking them into account and combining them with the other changes. Or if you're that unsure/mixed on Ahab as a whole, should I even bother? Would you prefer to just drop him now?

To be honest, I don't know what to do with Ahab; my mind isn't in a good place since I've been having 3 straight days of insomnia, so I'm not in tip top shape to answer all these questions, but I still answer them; I can just not answer them to the best of my ability. All I know is that my brother has his own art style, which may not be exactly the same as yours, and were trying to keep close to your style as best as possible, but of course two people will have two different styles when making one character. I am just having a hard time saying this without making it sound like I am just tossing your work, which I am not; my brother is just making his own adaptions based off the concept sketches he was given. I hope that makes sense because my mind is exhausted and I have a hard time giving in depth answers when I am ill-rested. Ahab is also just a difficult character for me to design and balance; he was just an early idea I had, and I don't know if he fits the current vision we have, so I think we can bench him for now.

 

[SpecterFlower]

i'll read the entire thread later, its cool to see a project being made in godot, im working on making a game in godot

 

[Glubbfubb]

i'll read the entire thread later, its cool to see a project being made in godot, im working on making a game in godot

Oh cool, what game are you working on?

 

[Kirbeh]

To be honest, I don't know what to do with Ahab; my mind isn't in a good place since I've been having 3 straight days of insomnia, so I'm not in tip top shape to answer all these questions, but I still answer them; I can just not answer them to the best of my ability. All I know is that my brother has his own art style, which may not be exactly the same as yours, and were trying to keep close to your style as best as possible, but of course two people will have two different styles when making one character. I am just having a hard time saying this without making it sound like I am just tossing your work, which I am not; my brother is just making his own adaptions based off the concept sketches he was given. I hope that makes sense because my mind is exhausted and I have a hard time giving in depth answers when I am ill-rested. Ahab is also just a difficult character for me to design and balance; he was just an early idea I had, and I don't know if he fits the current vision we have, so I think we can bench him for now.

I wasn't talking about your brother's art in my last post at all though. I was just saying to post one of the sprites when it's done so I can match the changes on the key art. (And you still ignored the source question.)

If you want to bench Ahab, then I'll leave out the rework in the big write up.

In any case, if you're exhausted you didn't need to respond right away. Log out, turn off the PC/phone and go rest up.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I wasn't talking about your brother's art in my last post at all though. I was just saying to post one of the sprites when it's done so I can match the changes on the key art. (And you still ignored the source question.)

If you want to bench Ahab, then I'll leave out the rework in the big write up.

In any case, if you're exhausted you didn't need to respond right away. Log out, turn off the PC/phone and go rest up.

Sorry misread it, Yes ill post the sprite sheet when he is done, hopefully it doesn't devolve into some weird Gartic Art Phone situation. Also I'm taking a break developing today, still open for questions.

 

[Kirbeh]

Sorry misread it, Yes ill post the sprite sheet when he is done, hopefully it doesn't devolve into some weird Gartic Art Phone situation. Also I'm taking a break developing today, still open for questions.

No questions. Go rest. Threads not going anywhere.

 

[Glubbfubb]

No questions. Go rest. Threads not going anywhere.

Okay, cya, just respond to the current question I have if you can

 

[Kirbeh]

Okay, cya, just respond to the current question I have if you can

What's the question?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Sorry misread it, Yes ill post the sprite sheet when he is done, hopefully it doesn't devolve into some weird Gartic Art Phone situation. Also I'm taking a break developing today, still open for questions.

Less of a question and more of a concern of doing spirtes the way you suggested may devolve into some Gartic Phone situation.

 

[Kirbeh]

Less of a question and more of a concern of doing spirtes the way you suggested may devolve into some Gartic Phone situation.

What did I suggest?

I only asked for one of the completed sprites. This is so that I can make the necessary changes to the key art. As an example, my current art has her wearing sneakers.

I want to see the sprite, so I know exactly what she's supposed to look like. This is intended to be the opposite of a Gartic Phone situation.

If I can see what she looks like, I can match my art to the sprite's design.

Moreover, if your brother is doing Aremi's sprites, I'm not going to make any sprites for the time being. Until I've seen his art, I can't make anything or else we'll end up with a mismatch of art styles.

 

[Glubbfubb]

What did I suggest?

I only asked for one of the completed sprites. This is so that I can make the necessary changes to the key art. As an example, my current art has her wearing sneakers.

View attachment 387065

I want to see the sprite, so I know exactly what she's supposed to look like. This is intended to be the opposite of a Gartic Phone situation.

If I can see what she looks like, I can match my art to the sprite's design.

Moreover, if your brother is doing Aremi's sprites, I'm not going to make any sprites for the time being. Until I've seen his art, I can't make anything or else we'll end up with a mismatch of art styles.

I think for now you doing the stage and portrait sprites and my brother the character sprites seems to be best for now. Sorry if it sounds like I'm overcomplicating things.

 

[Kirbeh]

I think for now you doing the stage and portrait sprites and my brother the character sprites seems to be best for now. Sorry if it sounds like I'm overcomplicating things.

You're good, we'll sort out roles a little better later.

Also, as a quick update for the write up. It's currently 8 pages long. I'm including reworks of every character except the Myten Queen for a total of 12 move sets so far. Since you're putting me on stage duty, I'll see if I can come up with ideas to include for those as well. I'll have to read over your planet bios again. If you haven't already, could you please put those in the OP for easy access.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Okay so to keep track of all the roster's home planets -

Wikka-1 - A heavily forested swamp planet; today, today it mainly a rural, albeit self-sufficient planet. The planet's heavy methane has caused the crust to randomly ignite with Pyronite flames, the hottest flames in the galaxy. As a result the atmosphere can be quite tricky to breath-in, requiring special filters in order to not choke to death on the gases. The warming of the soil has made it fertile for several species of rare plants, one of which is the planet's local delicacy, Wikkan Fire Squash. This red squash needs to be prepared in a certain way or else you will have to digest a bowl of magma in your stomach. When it is prepared properly it makes quite the delicious stew when combined with the meat of Dogans, tiny cricket/chicken hybirds who are both a pest species and the main source of meat for the Wikkans, Aremi's species. The planet was once prosperous, providing fuel for the Double Sigma, but became blacklisted from trade due to being scapegoated for the Sigma's disappearance. Now only remnants of the original drilling operations remain on the planet, with the sites quickly being retaken by the jungles.

Great Tide Nebula - A star nebula found in the upper right corner of the galaxy. The name comes from the arching formations made by the stardust, which often pass through rough asteroid clusters, making it resemble crashing waves on rocks. The natives are the whale-like Areocetaceans, who stitch these asteroids together with loose metal and space junk to make loose settlements led by large family-based clans. Areocetaceans are a varied bunch, some are commonly found around the galaxy as space mechanics, since their ability to live without the need for traditional air allows them to work basically anywhere. Due to being rather far off from the goings on of the galaxy, several Areocetaceans have been found trading with often blacklisted planets such as Wikka-1. Due to how remote the nebula is, the place has attracted some unscrupulous induviduals, who often form cartel bases in the center of lone asteroids. Areocetacean play a variety of sports in the wide cosmic ocean, one of the most popular being Air Boxing, which is boxing taking place in the depths of the nebula's cache of star dust.

Draden - Nicknamed the "Furnace of the Galaxy," Draden is a craggy planet near the middle of the galaxy. On the surface is what is called Polarus Draden, a snowy mountain with towering spires of ice overlooking deep canyons. The only plant life growing on the planet is the twisty but sturdy Icewoods, and the tough, thread-like Dragon's Whisker Root. These two plants are used to form infrastructure and clothing, respectively. Icewoods, despite their name, are also fireproof since they have a strong wax coating. Meanwhile the clothing Dragon's Wiskers create are immune to all temperatures. This is important as beneath the canyons are pits called "Firegates," which are the entrances to Magmatic Draden. The Firegates are all dotted with ancient ruins, implying some sort of long, unrecorded history on the planet. Magmatic Draden is a looping series of tunnels lined with metallic ore and gemstones, with the gems forming the closest things to plant life down there. This makes the planet a prime spot for mining, which are accomplished by the Magmatic Dracons, while the refinery is done by the Polarus Dradens. This makes it a key planet for trading in the galaxy, with the small moon of Draden, Scalon, being converted into a trade hub. The bustling moon of Scalon however, is also a sight for smuggling and black market trade, so a taskforce was created to try and quell said smuggling, with Polarus and Magmatic Dracons working together to stop these crimes.

Mythis and Diptera - Two celestial bodies outside the galaxy, a planet and its moon, that can be best described as two different wastelands. Mythis is the main planet, and its climate is currently a near endless sulfuric ocean with small barren islands dotting the landscape. Diptera meanwhile the a cavernous moon of bone-white dirt and stone, with grey dust filling the atmosphere. These planets were originally thriving; however, well, Diptera was, Mythis was still an acid death worth, but it had plants at least. Mythis was home to the Myten, a parasitic lifeform that regularly migrated towards the then forested Diptera to devour the G'nats, the natives of the moon. The G'nats fear the Mytens, who deprive them of their food, since, as bloodsuckers, they lack many options. Through some unknown means, the G'nats managed to nearly wipe out the Mytens, however as spite the Mytens bombarded Diptera, making it the feral wasteland you see today. Diptera is now a ruined planet, with the only lifeforms being mutated insects and G'nats driven mad by being starved of blood. This caused several sane G'nats to go off world to find a way to substain themselves, making the population of sane G'nats on their native planet quite low.

Viprin - A desert planet, but one with a varied climate. With a large reserve of groundwater caused by constant meteor showers from Boa, their regularly thawing and freezing moon of pure ice, Viprin is quite fertile despite its climate. The biggest draw to Viprin is its wildlife, which has one of the most varied list of endemic wildlife not found anywhere else. This however attracts game hunters, most notably from the native Viprex, giving the species a whole a bad reputation as nothing more than savage poachers. To escape this bad stereotyping, most Viprex pride themselves as top ecological scientists, however this has grown criticism from the natives, as some believe hunting is the essence of their culture and the aristocrats are simply erasing that. This has caused conflicts between the scientist population and hunter population, which is harming their tourist industry.

Birchun - Less of a planet and more of a planet-sized tree, Birchun's main distinctive trait is the fact that a giant oak has grown from the planet, causing a giant hole in the center of it. Some say that this was a result of two giant celestial bodies colliding, and the energy caused a new species of plant to bloom, creating this tree. Regardless, Birchun's native species are the ent-like Oaklans, colossal humanoid trees known for their wisdom. Several Oaklans were praised for brinding in new ages of the galaxy, which isn't far off from the truth as Oaklans are also infamous for their long growth cycle. Like locusts, Birchuns hibernate for over a century before waking all at once. Due to how vulnerable the species is, all tourism towards Birchum is prohibited, and only ecological scientists can travel on the planet's surface, where a host of untouched wildlife can be found.

These are all the planets I have so far, Kowalski is the only one without a planet, as Albino Protochimps are so rare that they don't have one sent home planet. How does this look, any questions for these planets?

Ill add this list to the OP Kirbeh hope it helps for your ideas. Tommorow I will try to fix this one big issue that freezes the game, it is another one of those "issue blockages" that makes progress a snail's pace but once gone allows me to do a lot of progress.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Had an idea Kirbeh for a potential replacement for Ahab, how does it look?

Spoiler: Rudder Concept

Name - Rudder
Gender - Male
Species - Muckbass
Origin - Muckbass are a piscine species that often colonize the most inhospitable environments in the world due to their unique ability to convert any type of gas into healthy oxygen. They are also naturally hardy beings, having a very tough coating of waxy scales and a near impenetrable stomachs, making them able to eat almost anything. Rudder is one such Muckbass and is known for his down-to-earth nature in spite of his bizarrre occupations. Living in the desolate Great Tide Nebula, Rudder has the job of being a universal cleaner, essentially a galactic garbage man, cleaning up any space junk around the galaxy for credits. Rudder is surprisingly knowledgeable, keeping many pieces of junk he found interesting and forming his own personal museum of trash, which to him is his treasures. One day however when cleaning he noticed a cage drifting in space, when he came to opening it he discovered a certain reptilian primate hiding out, and unbeknownst to him Rudder seems to catch the eye of a dangerous crime organization.
Appearance - Rudder takes inspiration from bass, catfish, and coelacanths. He has a glossy black sheet of scales covering his main body with a pale-white underbelly. Rudder doesn't have a typical humanoid built/posture, instead mainly being hunched over with a build slightly resembling a sumo wrestler. He wears an old, dirty, construction vest, indicating his job, and he wears a pair of leather gloves. Finally Rudder has a line of crested finds lining down his back, implying his species being quite ancient.

Archetype - Bruiser
Gimmick - None
Intended Strengths -

• Rudder's high weight gives him impressive survivability; he is tied with Chell as the 2nd heaviest character in the game, just behind LAMBDA.
• Rudder has surprising mobility, Muddy Rapids gives him a great burst movement/recovery option, and Flopping Salmon gives him a quick way to go back on stage.
• Rudder's long tail gives him some impressive range despite mainly utilizing melee attacks, essentially giving him a sword for some of his attacks.

Intended Weaknesses -

• Lacks a consistent projectile. Sure, Junk Spit is very powerful if used correctly, but the nature of the move means it is not something you can just use on a dime. This means he is very easy to zone out.
• In terms of horizontal recovery, Rudder is one of the best in the game, but he has quite poor vertical recovery abilities, requiring him to spend meter to get back on stage.
• Rudder has a hard time keeping up with fast characters due to his poor ground speed outside of burst movement options.

Planned Stats: (Give a letter grade from E- to A+)
Walk Speed - C-
Running Speed - B-
Traction - A-
Jump Height - B-
Air Acceleration - B-
Fall Speed - B
Weight - A+

Ground Moves:
Jab - Jawline - A series of bites done from Rudder's large gaping mouth, among his faster attacks in his kit and the start of some solid small-combos.
Forward Tilt - Slugger Punch - A forward hook done with a clenched fist, can be used to spike grounded opponents.
Up Tilt - Fin Flopper - An upwards tail slap done with Rudder's large tail, a good juggling tool due to its long range.
Down Tilt - Tripping Fin - Rudder attempts to trip the opponent with his tail by swiping it downwards, has a good chance to trip the opponent.
Back Tilt - Bass Drop - A backwards long-jump that sends Rudder backwards, is a surprisingly good burst movement option/kill move, though it is quite laggy in the end.
Dash Attack - Bellyflop - Rudder performs a... bellyflop, acting as a quick burst movement option with a spike hitbox in the center of the attack. Remember, it is quite laggy in the end.

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge - Shield Eater - Rudder charges up a powerful bite attack, his sharp teeth capable of shattering shields if fully charged, quite strong, however it lacks range.
Up Charge - Big Bertha - A charged upwards swing with Rudder's tail, it is a great kill-move after stringing together a bunch of Up Tilts and can be even used to juggle opponents as well.
Down Charge - Flounder Fall - A downward bellyflop, the force of the attack buries the opponent underneath Rudder.

Aerials:
Neutral Air - Spinning Sardine - Rudder spins in a circle, tail slapping everyone around him, among his most powerful aerials but also his laggiest.
Forward Air - Breaching Waves - A horizontal spin forwards, with some muddy water being spawned around Rudder to give him some extra range.
Up Air - Aerial Flopper - An aerial version of the Fin Flopper attack, an upwards swing of the tail, which again is great for vertical combos.
Down Air - Sunfish Slam - A downwards bellyflop with a powerful spike near the bottom of the attack, a very potent and safe option, but of course it lacks range.
Back Air - Tail Whip - A backwards tail slap, used as a get off me tool and kill move, very reliable but nothing really all that special.

Grabs:
Pummel - Knee Jab - A jab with a powerful and girthy knee, a strong but slow pummel.
Forward Throw - Junker Toss - A forward swing, the angle is set downwards, good for throwing people off ledges.
Down Throw - Spiraling Fish - A spiraling suplex downwards that deals great damage but doesn't kill, making it better as a combo throw.
Back Throw - Tail Hook - Getting hooked on Rudder's tail, he swings the foe back with a strong kill throw.
Up Throw - Upper Swing - A simple but strong upper toss that uses brute strength to be a powerful kill throw.

Specials:
Neutral Special - Junk Spit - A unique projectile attack where Rudder will spit one of several pieces of junk as projectiles, all in a set order, a very complicated move but one that offers great flexibility if mastered. Here is the list in order:

1. Pot - A heavy cast iron pot, deals the most raw damage and can instantly break shields, but it also only has decent range. However, the fact that it's one of only two projectiles that obey gravity makes it a decent ledge-guard tool.
2. Flask - A chemical flask that explodes into a burst of corrosive acid, poisoning anyone who collides with it. Has decent range and speed, but in terms of raw damage is the weakest projectile.
3. Bowling Pin - A projectile that bounces in a very high set of arcs before breaking, is capable of spiking opponents downwards if it hits.
4. Alarm Clock - A short range projectile that creates an ear-piercing sound that stuns opponents in place.
5. Seashell - A spiked seashell that slides along the ground to trip up anyone who gets hit by it.
6. Mint - Rudder breathes ice breath, the shortest range of all the projectiles, but it also freezes opponents in place if it connects.

• Neutral Hyper - Junk Burst - Rudder spits many pieces of scrap metal that arc in random angles, among his more consistent ledge guarding tools.

Side Special - Muddy Rapids - Rudder dashes forward, riding on a wave of muddy water, mash the button to increase the move's vertical height, though afterwards Rudder gets sent into freefall.

• Side Hyper - Mud Fall - Like a salmon up a waterfall, Rudder performs a swimming motion diagonally upwards, hitting anyone in his way, before entering freefall.

Down Special - Big Head Bash - A downwards headbutt, can spike opponents downwards and can even shatter shields.

• Down Hyper - Junker Bash - Rudder bashes opponents by crashing a giant hunk of metal on their heads, burying them.

Up Special - Flopping Salmon - Rudder leaps upwards before crashing down, while the attack is quite powerful, in terms of recovery its quite poor due to sending Rudder into an uncontrollable falling state.

• Up Hyper - Leaping Shark - Rudder leaps with a geyser of mud behind him to lift foes upwards, cutting some damage in exchange for better vertical recovery.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Boulder Toss - Spitting out a giant rock, Rudder carries it before having the option to toss it upwards or forwards, either way it is a strong and large projectile that is very capable of spiking opponents or shattering shields.
Level 2 - Mud Geyser - Rudder stomps, creating a mud geyser to launch foes upwards, a strong kill move off the top.
Level 3 - Junker Payload - Rudder spits out a freakin nuke that creates a colossal blast around himself, making it among the strongest moves of its kind, but also among the laggiest due to how long it takes to recover from.

I quite like this moveset, sure its simple, but it fits for what I am going for it, in terms of build I suggest maybe referencing Volt Catfish from Mega Man X3, or Duff MacWhalen from Mega Man X5 in terms of body type.

 

[Kirbeh]

Had an idea Kirbeh for a potential replacement for Ahab, how does it look?

Spoiler: Rudder Concept

Name - Rudder
Gender - Male
Species - Muckbass
Origin - Muckbass are a piscine species that often colonize the most inhospitable environments in the world due to their unique ability to convert any type of gas into healthy oxygen. They are also naturally hardy beings, having a very tough coating of waxy scales and a near impenetrable stomachs, making them able to eat almost anything. Rudder is one such Muckbass and is known for his down-to-earth nature in spite of his bizarrre occupations. Living in the desolate Great Tide Nebula, Rudder has the job of being a universal cleaner, essentially a galactic garbage man, cleaning up any space junk around the galaxy for credits. Rudder is surprisingly knowledgeable, keeping many pieces of junk he found interesting and forming his own personal museum of trash, which to him is his treasures. One day however when cleaning he noticed a cage drifting in space, when he came to opening it he discovered a certain reptilian primate hiding out, and unbeknownst to him Rudder seems to catch the eye of a dangerous crime organization.
Appearance - Rudder takes inspiration from bass, catfish, and coelacanths. He has a glossy black sheet of scales covering his main body with a pale-white underbelly. Rudder doesn't have a typical humanoid built/posture, instead mainly being hunched over with a build slightly resembling a sumo wrestler. He wears an old, dirty, construction vest, indicating his job, and he wears a pair of leather gloves. Finally Rudder has a line of crested finds lining down his back, implying his species being quite ancient.

Archetype - Bruiser
Gimmick - None
Intended Strengths -

• Rudder's high weight gives him impressive survivability; he is tied with Chell as the 2nd heaviest character in the game, just behind LAMBDA.
• Rudder has surprising mobility, Muddy Rapids gives him a great burst movement/recovery option, and Flopping Salmon gives him a quick way to go back on stage.
• Rudder's long tail gives him some impressive range despite mainly utilizing melee attacks, essentially giving him a sword for some of his attacks.

Intended Weaknesses -

• Lacks a consistent projectile. Sure, Junk Spit is very powerful if used correctly, but the nature of the move means it is not something you can just use on a dime. This means he is very easy to zone out.
• In terms of horizontal recovery, Rudder is one of the best in the game, but he has quite poor vertical recovery abilities, requiring him to spend meter to get back on stage.
• Rudder has a hard time keeping up with fast characters due to his poor ground speed outside of burst movement options.

Planned Stats: (Give a letter grade from E- to A+)
Walk Speed - C-
Running Speed - B-
Traction - A-
Jump Height - B-
Air Acceleration - B-
Fall Speed - B
Weight - A+

Ground Moves:
Jab - Jawline - A series of bites done from Rudder's large gaping mouth, among his faster attacks in his kit and the start of some solid small-combos.
Forward Tilt - Slugger Punch - A forward hook done with a clenched fist, can be used to spike grounded opponents.
Up Tilt - Fin Flopper - An upwards tail slap done with Rudder's large tail, a good juggling tool due to its long range.
Down Tilt - Tripping Fin - Rudder attempts to trip the opponent with his tail by swiping it downwards, has a good chance to trip the opponent.
Back Tilt - Bass Drop - A backwards long-jump that sends Rudder backwards, is a surprisingly good burst movement option/kill move, though it is quite laggy in the end.
Dash Attack - Bellyflop - Rudder performs a... bellyflop, acting as a quick burst movement option with a spike hitbox in the center of the attack. Remember, it is quite laggy in the end.

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge - Shield Eater - Rudder charges up a powerful bite attack, his sharp teeth capable of shattering shields if fully charged, quite strong, however it lacks range.
Up Charge - Big Bertha - A charged upwards swing with Rudder's tail, it is a great kill-move after stringing together a bunch of Up Tilts and can be even used to juggle opponents as well.
Down Charge - Flounder Fall - A downward bellyflop, the force of the attack buries the opponent underneath Rudder.

Aerials:
Neutral Air - Spinning Sardine - Rudder spins in a circle, tail slapping everyone around him, among his most powerful aerials but also his laggiest.
Forward Air - Breaching Waves - A horizontal spin forwards, with some muddy water being spawned around Rudder to give him some extra range.
Up Air - Aerial Flopper - An aerial version of the Fin Flopper attack, an upwards swing of the tail, which again is great for vertical combos.
Down Air - Sunfish Slam - A downwards bellyflop with a powerful spike near the bottom of the attack, a very potent and safe option, but of course it lacks range.
Back Air - Tail Whip - A backwards tail slap, used as a get off me tool and kill move, very reliable but nothing really all that special.

Grabs:
Pummel - Knee Jab - A jab with a powerful and girthy knee, a strong but slow pummel.
Forward Throw - Junker Toss - A forward swing, the angle is set downwards, good for throwing people off ledges.
Down Throw - Spiraling Fish - A spiraling suplex downwards that deals great damage but doesn't kill, making it better as a combo throw.
Back Throw - Tail Hook - Getting hooked on Rudder's tail, he swings the foe back with a strong kill throw.
Up Throw - Upper Swing - A simple but strong upper toss that uses brute strength to be a powerful kill throw.

Specials:
Neutral Special - Junk Spit - A unique projectile attack where Rudder will spit one of several pieces of junk as projectiles, all in a set order, a very complicated move but one that offers great flexibility if mastered. Here is the list in order:

1. Pot - A heavy cast iron pot, deals the most raw damage and can instantly break shields, but it also only has decent range. However, the fact that it's one of only two projectiles that obey gravity makes it a decent ledge-guard tool.
2. Flask - A chemical flask that explodes into a burst of corrosive acid, poisoning anyone who collides with it. Has decent range and speed, but in terms of raw damage is the weakest projectile.
3. Bowling Pin - A projectile that bounces in a very high set of arcs before breaking, is capable of spiking opponents downwards if it hits.
4. Alarm Clock - A short range projectile that creates an ear-piercing sound that stuns opponents in place.
5. Seashell - A spiked seashell that slides along the ground to trip up anyone who gets hit by it.
6. Mint - Rudder breathes ice breath, the shortest range of all the projectiles, but it also freezes opponents in place if it connects.

• Neutral Hyper - Junk Burst - Rudder spits many pieces of scrap metal that arc in random angles, among his more consistent ledge guarding tools.

Side Special - Muddy Rapids - Rudder dashes forward, riding on a wave of muddy water, mash the button to increase the move's vertical height, though afterwards Rudder gets sent into freefall.

• Side Hyper - Mud Fall - Like a salmon up a waterfall, Rudder performs a swimming motion diagonally upwards, hitting anyone in his way, before entering freefall.

Down Special - Big Head Bash - A downwards headbutt, can spike opponents downwards and can even shatter shields.

• Down Hyper - Junker Bash - Rudder bashes opponents by crashing a giant hunk of metal on their heads, burying them.

Up Special - Flopping Salmon - Rudder leaps upwards before crashing down, while the attack is quite powerful, in terms of recovery its quite poor due to sending Rudder into an uncontrollable falling state.

• Up Hyper - Leaping Shark - Rudder leaps with a geyser of mud behind him to lift foes upwards, cutting some damage in exchange for better vertical recovery.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Boulder Toss - Spitting out a giant rock, Rudder carries it before having the option to toss it upwards or forwards, either way it is a strong and large projectile that is very capable of spiking opponents or shattering shields.
Level 2 - Mud Geyser - Rudder stomps, creating a mud geyser to launch foes upwards, a strong kill move off the top.
Level 3 - Junker Payload - Rudder spits out a freakin nuke that creates a colossal blast around himself, making it among the strongest moves of its kind, but also among the laggiest due to how long it takes to recover from.

I quite like this moveset, sure its simple, but it fits for what I am going for it, in terms of build I suggest maybe referencing Volt Catfish from Mega Man X3, or Duff MacWhalen from Mega Man X5 in terms of body type.

Overall, I quite like it, just a few things I want to point out/mention.

First, and this is something that I address in the big write up I'm still working on, but I honestly think you should get rid of tripping entirely. Perhaps my interpretation is wrong, but as it currently is, you have it functioning like it does in Smash, right?

You have lots of moves across the cast with a chance to cause the opponent to trip. I would reduce the number of moves per character tha cause tripping and instead replace the tripping mechanic with a standard knockdown state like in traditional fighters.

The moves that do cause knockdown, would no longer have a chance but instead be guaranteed. The random nature of Smash tripping is out but a more reliable function replaces it. You also of course reduce the number of moves that cause a hard knockdown to balance things out.

Next is the random spikes on certain moves like Rudder's F-Tilt. I know you're using Smash terminology here, but do you actually mean for this to function like a Melee spike? Or is meant to be a meteor smash? Or is meant to be a ground bounce like in other 2D fighters?

The latter is what I think would make the most sense for this particular move.

Third is the overabundance of shield break moves. Rudder alone has several, as is the case with numerous other characters on the roster. I think you need to reduce the number of instant shield break moves to maintain better balance. With Rudder for example, being a bruiser type character, I think it's fine if he keeps the heavy shield damage/breaking on his Supers, Down Special and F-Charge, but I'd drop it from the Pot in his Neutral Special.

The last point is actually Rudder specific; his level 1 and 3 hypermax attacks.

I think it'd be better to remove the extra step of having to carry the rock in Boulder Toss and instead have him spit it forward or at a high angle depending on the input.

For Junker Payload, I'd replace the nuke with some other explosive on a timer. This would be the one that he could then carry and throw around to try and position it in a spot that gives him the most advantage.

Moving along from Rudder and the other general points, my write up does already feature a rework of Ahab, and rather than cut it, I've decided to leave it in so you can take a look and see what you think.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Overall, I quite like it, just a few things I want to point out/mention.

First, and this is something that I address in the big write up I'm still working on, but I honestly think you should get rid of tripping entirely. Perhaps my interpretation is wrong, but as it currently is, you have it functioning like it does in Smash, right?

You have lots of moves across the cast with a chance to cause the opponent to trip. I would reduce the number of moves per character tha cause tripping and instead replace the tripping mechanic with a standard knockdown state like in traditional fighters.

The moves that do cause knockdown, would no longer have a chance but instead be guaranteed. The random nature of Smash tripping is out but a more reliable function replaces it. You also of course reduce the number of moves that cause a hard knockdown to balance things out.

Next is the random spikes on certain moves like Rudder's F-Tilt. I know you're using Smash terminology here, but do you actually mean for this to function like a Melee spike? Or is meant to be a meteor smash? Or is meant to be a ground bounce like in other 2D fighters?

The latter is what I think would make the most sense for this particular move.

Third is the overabundance of shield break moves. Rudder alone has several, as is the case with numerous other characters on the roster. I think you need to reduce the number of instant shield break moves to maintain better balance. With Rudder for example, being a bruiser type character, I think it's fine if he keeps the heavy shield damage/breaking on his Supers, Down Special and F-Charge, but I'd drop it from the Pot in his Neutral Special.

The last point is actually Rudder specific; his level 1 and 3 hypermax attacks.

I think it'd be better to remove the extra step of having to carry the rock in Boulder Toss and instead have him spit it forward or at a high angle depending on the input.

For Junker Payload, I'd replace the nuke with some other explosive on a timer. This would be the one that he could then carry and throw around to try and position it in a spot that gives him the most advantage.

Moving along from Rudder and the other general points, my write up does already feature a rework of Ahab, and rather than cut it, I've decided to leave it in and so you can take a look and see what you think.

There is no random tripping by just running back and forth, its only an effect certain moves can have, such as a few specials poisoning opponents, freezing them in place, or burying them, I see tripping as a status condition some moves can give off. But if its an issue, I can surely cut the feature, it would ease the load a bit for me but it would also mean I have to go back to a lot of profiles and remove references to tripping.

When I mean spike I mean an attack that sends between 260 and 280 degree angles, so essentially straight down. I don't know if the terminology is correct but spike just pops out more than meteor attack, I hope that makes sense to you.

Also I will nerf some shield breaks, I want to also know if Neutral Special is a bit too gimmicky or does it work, I tried to make it a more consistent Faust junk toss or Game and Watch Judge, while also keeping it closer to Sora's spell list in that its a set order that you can work around .

 

[Kirbeh]

There is no random tripping by just running back and forth, its only an effect certain moves can have, such as a few specials poisoning opponents, freezing them in place, or burying them, I see tripping as a status condition some moves can give off. But if its an issue, I can surely cut the feature, it would ease the load a bit for me but it would also mean I have to go back to a lot of profiles and remove references to tripping.

I was more referring to how in some move descriptions you include "has a chance of tripping." I think it'd be better to simply make these moves fully consistent. If a move is intended to trip, it should always trip, but conversely you should reduce the usage of the property to make it less of a balance issue or general annoyance to players. This is also why I suggested making it a hard knockdown like in traditional fighters as opposed to the Smash Bros. style of tripping.

When I mean spike I mean an attack that sends between 260 and 280 degree angles, so essentially straight down. I don't know if the terminology is correct but spike just pops out more than meteor attack, I hope that makes sense to you.

So, a Melee spike specifically then?

True spikes are Melee specific (the knockback cannot be interrupted); meteors are used throughout the rest of a series. Meteor smashes are similar, but you can cancel the knockback by jumping or using Up Special with the right timing. Spikes and meteors are typically down aerials or other downward moving attacks like aerial Wizard's Foot or Falcon Up Tilt.

A ground bounce is exactly what the name implies, an attack that bounces the opponent off the ground allowing for follow up attacks.

Also I will nerf some shield breaks, I want to also know if Neutral Special is a bit too gimmicky or does it work, I tried to make it a more consistent Faust junk toss or Game and Watch Judge, while also keeping it closer to Sora's spell list in that its a set order that you can work around .

Neutral Special is fine, in fact, it'd still be fine if you wanted the item order to be random. I was just saying you should probably drop the shield break from the pot given the numerous other high shield damage/shield break moves in Rudder's arsenal.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I was more referring to how in some move descriptions you include "has a chance of tripping." I think it'd be better to simply make these moves fully consistent. If a move is intended to trip, it should always trip, but conversely you should reduce the usage of the property to make it less of a balance issue or general annoyance to players. This is also why I suggested making it a hard knockdown like in traditional fighters as opposed to the Smash Bros. style of tripping.


So, a Melee spike specifically then?

True spikes are Melee specific (the knockback cannot be interrupted); meteors are used throughout the rest of a series. Meteor smashes are similar, but you can cancel the knockback by jumping or using Up Special with the right timing. Spikes and meteors are typically down aerials or other downward moving attacks like aerial Wizard's Foot or Falcon Up Tilt.

A ground bounce is exactly what the name implies, an attack that bounces the opponent off the ground allowing for follow up attacks.


Neutral Special is fine, in fact, it'd still be fine if you wanted the item order to be random. I was just saying you should probably drop the shield break from the pot given the numerous other high shield damage/shield break moves in Rudder's arsenal.

Awnser to all those responses:

I'll probably make the trip effect more like a fighting game knockdown, tripping is just easier to say for me.

Yeah what you described for spikes is exactly what I had in mind when I mention spikes in my character kits.

I'll likely keep the Neutral Special projectile order consistant, that way there is no RNG jank

 

[Kirbeh]

Awnser to all those responses:

I'll probably make the trip effect more like a fighting game knockdown, tripping is just easier to say for me.

Yeah what you described for spikes is exactly what I had in mind when I mention spikes in my character kits.

I'll likely keep the Neutral Special projectile order consistant, that way there is no RNG jank

I think having a random element would be fine in this case. The only reason it reaches jank levels in Smash is because some of the available options are either completely useless or overpowered. I think so long as each object has some use without being too strong, the random element can spice things up without being a nuisance to either player.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I think having a random element would be fine in this case. The only reason it reaches jank levels in Smash is because some of the available options are either completely useless or overpowered. I think so long as each object has some use without being too strong, the random element can spice things up without being a nuisance to either player.

I know its just that with each item having a specific effect, it would be a better idea to have some control over which item goes in which order, especially since these arn't items you can just pick up and toss, you have to spit them out.

 

[Kirbeh]

I know its just that with each item having a specific effect, it would be a better idea to have some control over which item goes in which order, especially since these arn't items you can just pick up and toss, you have to spit them out.

You likened it to Faust earlier which is a perfectly apt comparison for how it could work, but if you want to go with a set order then by all means.

 

[Glubbfubb]

You likened it to Faust earlier which is a perfectly apt comparison for how it could work, but if you want to go with a set order then by all means.

I likened it to Faust due to sharing a core concept, that being tossing junk at people, but in terms of gameplay it is more in line with Sora's spell cycle Neutral Special.

 

[Kirbeh]

I likened it to Faust due to sharing a core concept, that being tossing junk at people, but in terms of gameplay it is more in line with Sora's spell cycle Neutral Special.

I know, I was just saying that so long as you don't involve any extremes like Judge or Hero's spells it could be random without being a major issue. A Faust style move can still be fine. If you prefer the ordered list that works too tho

 

[Glubbfubb]

Dev Update - Fixed a bug where the game freezes when I open it... but now I have to fix a bug where I am constantly running towards the right... yay for me.

Anyway development is going good, moving away from the tutorials and starting from scratch was good for me in hindsight. Hoping to work more in depth on movesets when I get all the movement bugs fixed.

 

[Glubbfubb]

What gives a fighting game longevity to you, I want the game to have a consistant player base, so I wonder I can increase longevity, any ideas

 

[Kirbeh]

What gives a fighting game longevity to you, I want the game to have a consistant player base, so I wonder I can increase longevity, any ideas

The most important thing is the game feel and characters. If the game feels good to control and the characters are fun to use, I can go back to a game anytime and still enjoy it. I revisit plenty of fighting games even if there is bad or no online at all if I can get enough enjoyment out of vs matches against the CPU.

Second point would be the single player. I know you have an ambitious idea for a rogue-like 1P mode and I think that's a great idea. That said, continuing off the first point, a decent arcade mode does wonders while maintaining a smaller scope. It's simple, but some story images and a little dialogue can go a long way for endearing people to characters. Launching with at least a basic arcade mode would be best imo, with the rogue-like mode coming down the line as a big update.

Third is the aforementioned online. A fighting game can have plenty of longevity without it, but that is mostly composed of only the most dedicated players. It goes without saying that having online is now the current expected standard. And ideally rollback of course.

While I did say, I still get enjoyment playing older games on my own, the true fighting game experience is going to be against human opponents. So while I list this as third, in terms of actual importance, I would place on equal ground or perhaps even higher than point #2. Most players, competitive and casual alike are going to rely on online to play with their friends or seek out challenges.

So, in summary:

1. Control/game feel and characters
2. Online functionality
3. Single player with replay value

 

[Glubbfubb]

The most important thing is the game feel and characters. If the game feels good to control and the characters are fun to use, I can go back to a game anytime and still enjoy it. I revisit plenty of fighting games even if there is bad or no online at all if I can get enough enjoyment out of vs matches against the CPU.

Second point would be the single player. I know you have an ambitious idea for a rogue-like 1P mode and I think that's a great idea. That said, continuing off the first point, a decent arcade mode does wonders while maintaining a smaller scope. It's simple, but some story images and a little dialogue can go a long way for endearing people to characters. Launching with at least a basic arcade mode would be best imo, with the rogue-like mode coming down the line as a big update.

Third is the aforementioned online. A fighting game can have plenty of longevity without it, but that is mostly composed of only the most dedicated players. It goes without saying that having online is now the current expected standard. And ideally rollback of course.

While I did say, I still get enjoyment playing older games on my own, the true fighting game experience is going to be against human opponents. So while I list this as third, in terms of actual importance, I would place on equal ground or perhaps even higher than point #2. Most players, competitive and casual alike are going to rely on online to play with their friends or seek out challenges.

So, in summary:

1. Control/game feel and characters
2. Online functionality
3. Single player with replay value

Good point, luckily Godot has native rollback netcode, so no worry about having dedicated servers.

As for single player on top of the planned rougelike mode, I was also going to have event matches, break the targets, and arenas to fight enemies, so there is good single player content.

Also how far are you into the write ups, I'm just curious on that front

 

[Kirbeh]

Good point, luckily Godot has native rollback netcode, so no worry about having dedicated servers.

As for single player on top of the planned rougelike mode, I was also going to have event matches, break the targets, and arenas to fight enemies, so there is good single player content.

Also how far are you into the write ups, I'm just curious on that front

Just under half-way-ish? I'm adding a few extra things in as well, but you'll see what they are once it's done. The overall outline is as follows:

• Character Design Guidelines (on move sets specifically, not for appearance, lore, etc.)
• Move Set Reworks (13 characters, excluding the Myten Queen. This is the bulk of the write up.)
• Some stage ideas (Smallest section and kinda tacked on at the end, still brainstorming some layouts and backgrounds)

 

[Glubbfubb]

Just under half-way-ish? I'm adding a few extra things in as well, but you'll see what they are once it's done. The overall outline is as follows:

• Character Design Guidelines (on move sets specifically, not for appearance, lore, etc.)
• Move Set Reworks (13 characters, excluding the Myten Queen. This is the bulk of the write up.)
• Some stage ideas (Smallest section and kinda tacked on at the end, still brainstorming some layouts and backgrounds)

If you want you can post them one at a time, I won't mind

 

[Kirbeh]

If you want you can post them one at a time, I won't mind

I did consider it, but I'd rather just post everything all at once. I might do the stages separately though since they weren't part of the original document, but we'll see.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I did consider it, but I'd rather just post everything all at once. I might do the stages separately though since they weren't part of the original document, but we'll see.

Okay, I'll wait on that then, if you do have stuff to share I'm excited to see what you make

 

[Glubbfubb]

At what percent threshold would you say it would be fair for an attack to be a one-hit kill, as in the attack will kill you no matter what. I have two attack ideas, both Level 3 Hypermax Attacks, first is Chell's Black Bullet, which shoots a black venom-coated bullet at the foe to finish them off, this one kills automatically at 150%. Meanwhile, I was thinking of reworking Weevle's Level 3 Hypermax Attack, to be more accurate to the lore of Weevle's. Since Weevle's species, the G'nat, go insane after a long period without a blood feeding. Even though Weevle is a G'nat she has had regular blood feedings so it wouldn't make sense for her to go into a feral state of her own. I also wanted to exclusively give the transformation Hypermaxes to LAMBDA and EPSILON since those essentially turn them into playable SNK bosses for a few seconds. So my replacement is instead an homage to Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu attack, where Weevle dashes forward and rapidly mauls the target, before posing back for the camera. (Instead of the typical kanji, Weevle instead uses the letter for epsilon, since she is a loyal minion of... EPSILON) That attack kills instantly when the foe is over 120% since Weevle is again durable as wet tissue paper and therefore needs a quicker kill. The main purposes of these attacks is to either take down an evasive fighter for Chell or finish off a dangerous foe for Weevle, and I wonder if those attack concepts are fair Kirbeh .

 

[Kirbeh]

At what percent threshold would you say it would be fair for an attack to be a one-hit kill, as in the attack will kill you no matter what. I have two attack ideas, both Level 3 Hypermax Attacks, first is Chell's Black Bullet, which shoots a black venom-coated bullet at the foe to finish them off, this one kills automatically at 150%. Meanwhile, I was thinking of reworking Weevle's Level 3 Hypermax Attack, to be more accurate to the lore of Weevle's. Since Weevle's species, the G'nat, go insane after a long period without a blood feeding. Even though Weevle is a G'nat she has had regular blood feedings so it wouldn't make sense for her to go into a feral state of her own. I also wanted to exclusively give the transformation Hypermaxes to LAMBDA and EPSILON since those essentially turn them into playable SNK bosses for a few seconds. So my replacement is instead an homage to Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu attack, where Weevle dashes forward and rapidly mauls the target, before posing back for the camera. (Instead of the typical kanji, Weevle instead uses the letter for epsilon, since she is a loyal minion of... EPSILON) That attack kills instantly when the foe is over 120% since Weevle is again durable as wet tissue paper and therefore needs a quicker kill. The main purposes of these attacks is to either take down an evasive fighter for Chell or finish off a dangerous foe for Weevle, and I wonder if those attack concepts are fair Kirbeh .

I think 150% is a good spot, and honestly, I think it should be fine for Weevle as well. If you want her to have a Raging Demon, the super itself is going to deal a lot of damage, so she should realistically reach the 150% threshold during the super itself so long as she it uses on an opponent that's already over 100%.

I think you could have it deal around 40-50%. So, landing it on an opponent at 100% exactly or a little over, whichever you think is best for balance.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I think 150% is a good spot, and honestly, I think it should be fine for Weevle as well. If you want her to have a Raging Demon, the super itself is going to deal a lot of damage, so she should realistically reach the 150% threshold during the super itself so long as she it uses on an opponent that's already over 100%.

I think you could have it deal around 40-50%. So, landing it on an opponent at 100% exactly or a little over, whichever you think is best for balance.

That could work too, I just like the Shun Goku Satsu and I want to reference it somewhere, plus having more than one insta-kill hypermax adds more variety.

 

[Kirbeh]

That could work too, I just like the Shun Goku Satsu and I want to reference it somewhere, plus having more than one insta-kill hypermax adds more variety.

You could also consider giving everyone a 4th Hypermax to serve as an insta-KO after meeting certain conditions like the Instant Kills from Guilty Gear and Persona 4 Arena.