Sigma Busters (Name Pending): Official Discussion Thread

[Kirbeh]

Dev Update, jumping now works properly, but now landing is a buggy now, it never ends

Hang in there! It's a long process, so don't feel like you need to rush it.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Nah, I'd say just stick to your original idea for this one. Wouldn't make sense for him to have more a hostile/brutal move set if he's still intended to be a character we're rooting for, plus any hostility is directed at the poachers, not the other unrelated fighters.

A third heavyweight huh? With the grappler and bruiser already covered, I'm honestly not sure outside of trying another hybrid. Maybe another zoner with lots of firepower to compensate for poor mobility?

2/14 characters in our roster are heavyweights; honestly, not that many. The lighties (Aremi, Weevle, Samson, EPSILON and Kowalski) make up 5/14 of the roster, so quite a bigger chunk than the heavies. Fighting games tend to have more lighties than heavies, but I feel like three gives enough variety for said heavies.

 

[Kirbeh]

3/14 characters in our roster are heavyweights; honestly, not that many. The lighties (Aremi, Weevle, Samson, EPSILON and Kowalski) make up 5/14 of the roster, so quite a bigger chunk than the heavies. Fighting games tend to have more lighties than heavies, but I feel like three gives enough variety for said heavies.

Oh no, I'm not concerned/complaining about it. 3 out of 14 isn't a lot and if anything, I prefer the heavies (I'm a Gief/Pot/ main after all.) I'm just trying to think of what we could do to make the third standout from the two already on the roster.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Oh no, I'm not concerned/complaining about it. 3 out of 14 isn't a lot and if anything, I prefer the heavies (I'm a Gief/Pot/ main after all.) I'm just trying to think of what we could do to make the third standout from the two already on the roster.

A projectile-based heavy maybe, I personally think we should also implement a poison-based gimmick as well, and I have an idea that can combine both and be original.

I think a heavy that manipulates, or more interestingly is made out of, the metal mercury would be a really cool addition. Mercury is both a unique metal since its naturally liquid in room temperature, so while she is quite the dense fellow due to being made of you know, metal, the liquid aspect of her allows her to move elegantly for a heavy. How should I expand on this concept, any ideas?

 

[Kirbeh]

A projectile-based heavy maybe, I personally think we should also implement a poison-based gimmick as well, and I have an idea that can combine both and be original.

I think a heavy that manipulates, or more interestingly is made out of, the metal mercury would be a really cool addition. Mercury is both a unique metal since its naturally liquid in room temperature, so while she is quite the dense fellow due to being made of you know, metal, the liquid aspect of her allows her to move elegantly for a heavy. How should I expand on this concept, any ideas?

I just had an idea actually, what if the third heavy is a mid to long range character? Really good reach, but also quite tall and on the slower side. Being made of mercury, she could also have the ability to further extend or reshape her limbs for attacks.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I just had an idea actually, what if the third heavy is a mid to long range character? Really good reach, but also quite tall and on the slower side. Being made of mercury, she could also have the ability to further extend or reshape her limbs for attacks.

Yeah her game plan is mainly around chip-damage, most of her attacks are quite weak by themselves, but they are all moves that are either quite fast, do multiple very weak hits in rapid succession, great at chipping shields, or leave damage overtime effects from the poisonous mercury making up her body.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah her game plan is mainly around chip-damage, most of her attacks are quite weak by themselves, but they are all moves that are either quite fast, do multiple very weak hits in rapid succession, great at chipping shields, or leave damage overtime effects from the poisonous mercury making up her body.

Any specifics on how she should look?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Any specifics on how she should look?

I don't know exactly, I imagine gangly limbs, mainly a very long pair of hands that are near melting, since she can shape her hands into many different forms, mainly drills and other sharp implements. Her hair is equally as long and liquid like, her body is essentially a blob of mercury shaped into a vaguely human figure. She has some elegance to her, which contrasts some... goofy transformations she can preform, like turning her gut into a cannon that can shoot out her fists, having her trip on one of her feet to make an acid puddle, etc. She is a being of contrasts; on one side she can be serene, and other times she does some wacky junk, fitting for her weird playstyle. Her body is made entirely out of mercury metal, with the exception of her eyes, which have an indigo color—a really simple color scheme. My moveset is still marinating in my head, so maybe some sketches can inspire me.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Also Dev Update... again, jumping is no longer glitchy, got it to work finally.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I think a heavy that manipulates, or more interestingly is made out of, the metal mercury would be a really cool addition. Mercury is both a unique metal since its naturally liquid in room temperature, so while she is quite the dense fellow due to being made of you know, metal, the liquid aspect of her allows her to move elegantly for a heavy. How should I expand on this concept, any ideas?

Okay, I immediately have an awesome character this could take inspiration from - Twelve, in Street Fighter III - Third Strike. And I think "Mercury" having a liquidy nature would make a lot of sense - though personally, I'd avoid just taking the Dhalsim method of giving her stretchy limbs, and instead playing with her potential ability to shapeshift. Doing things like turning her limbs into giant blades or spines, for instance, could make for a really unique visual - and...

I don't know exactly, I imagine gangly limbs, mainly a very long pair of hands that are near melting, since she can shape her hands into many different forms, mainly drills and other sharp implements. Her hair is equally as long and liquid like, her body is essentially a blob of mercury shaped into a vaguely human figure. She has some elegance to her, which contrasts some... goofy transformations she can preform, like turning her gut into a cannon that can shoot out her fists, having her trip on one of her feet to make an acid puddle, etc. She is a being of contrasts; on one side she can be serene, and other times she does some wacky junk, fitting for her weird playstyle. Her body is made entirely out of mercury metal, with the exception of her eyes, which have an indigo color—a really simple color scheme. My moveset is still marinating in my head, so maybe some sketches can inspire me.

...I think there's an interesting idea you could go for as a projectile. Hear me out:

Side Special: Mercury Shot
Mercury (name pending) turns one of her hands into a mostly spherical blob, before tossing it forward in an arc. The arc in specific can be altered by holding slightly up (higher but shorter) or down (lower but longer), allowing for additional control. While the blob itself only does mediocre damage on hit, it's particularly notable for what it does when grounded - turning into a puddle. Up to two of these puddles can be active at once, and it "dries up" after 30 seconds. Not notable on its own, right? Until...

Neutral Special: Mercury Spines
Mercury envelops her entire body in large spines in a chargeable attack that can work as a quick full-body get-off-me when tapped, but when held, boasts an enhanced mid-level range and attack power. Notably, if a Mercury Shot puddle is currently active - inputting Neutral Special allows it to also output spines of equal power to those emanating from Mercury herself, no matter where she is on the stage. This allows it to function as a frighteningly effective stage control tool - but the limitations it has promotes a more cerebral playstyle, forcing you to think ahead and play with your opponent to an extent.

Not sure if this is what you're going for, but this concept immediately sprang to mind for me when I read your thought for her shooting out her hands. Hope you like it!

 

[Kirbeh]

Quick sketches

Spoiler

 

[Glubbfubb]

Quick sketches

Spoiler

View attachment 382878View attachment 382879

Quite like both, though I imagine Weevle to be a bit shorter in game since she is the smallest of the cast.

I quite like Curie (the mercury's work in title name), though though simplifying the face could better emphasize her abilities to shapeshift into many forms.

 

[Kirbeh]

Quite like both, though I imagine Weevle to be a bit shorter in game since she is the smallest of the cast.

I quite like Curie (the mercury's work in title name), though though simplifying the face could better emphasize her abilities to shapeshift into many forms.

She only has eyes and a mouth. I don't know much simpler the face can get (I guess I could remove the mouth as well?) Or are you referring to the crest on her forehead? I figured it'd be appropriate to include the symbol for mercury somewhere on her design.

aremi doodle

Spoiler

 

[Glubbfubb]

She only has eyes and a mouth. I don't know much simpler the face can get (I guess I could remove the mouth as well?) Or are you referring to the crest on her forehead? I figured it'd be appropriate to include the symbol for mercury somewhere on her design.

aremi doodle

Spoiler

View attachment 382880

Oh that's the actual mercury symbol, keep it then that's a cool inclusion, the design could work for Curie, also I like Aremi she looks like a little gremlin and I love that, she also has the perfect hairstyle, so keep that.

BTW Am now working on Curie's moveset, so you can eventually reference it for your sketches. Be on the lookout for disjointed jabs and some wacky transformations.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Hey Kirbeh do you think Curie could fit as a space pirate-type character? Like, maybe her species could have a pirate culture and she is one of the best? This would fit her moveset since she turns her limbs and body into drills, scimitars, and the like.

 

[Kirbeh]

Hey Kirbeh do you think Curie could fit as a space pirate-type character? Like, maybe her species could have a pirate culture and she is one of the best? This would fit her moveset since she turns her limbs and body into drills, scimitars, and the like.

That's another possible angle to take I suppose, though the direction on that also depends on what you mean by space pirates. We talking high tech space smugglers or space versions of traditional sea pirates?

 

[Glubbfubb]

That's another possible angle to take I suppose, though the direction on that also depends on what you mean by space pirates. We talking high tech space smugglers or space versions of traditional sea pirates?

Smugglers, I mean Kowalski's backstory is about fighting against his poachers, might as well give them a face in Curie, adds some factions to the game. She is likely going to be the most hateble character in the game since at least LAMBDA will have some sympathetic qualities like their oddly wholesome relationship with Weevle and and like not treating their army like disposable flies, Curies has NONE of these qualities.

 

[Kirbeh]

Smugglers, I mean Kowalski's backstory is about fighting against his poachers, might as well give them a face in Curie, adds some factions to the game. She is likely going to be the most hateble character in the game since at least LAMBDA will have some sympathetic qualities like their oddly wholesome relationship with Weevle and and like not treating their army like disposable flies, Curies has NONE of these qualities.

Dang, gotta scrap my other idea for Curies then. I was going to make her look elegant, almost angelic, or as close as a gray blob can get but in this case I'll try to go for a more sinister look.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Dang, gotta scrap my other idea for Curies then. I was going to make her look elegant, almost angelic, or as close as a gray blob can get but in this case I'll try to go for a more sinister look.

You can keep the serene elegance, there is a trope called dissonant serenity where elegance is used to highlight the creepiness of someone

 

[Kirbeh]

You can keep the serene elegance, there is a trope called dissonant serenity where elegance is used to highlight the creepiness of someone

I know, but there was a very particular look/angle I was going for that I don't want going to an evil character. I'll shelve that design and come up with a different elegant look.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I know, but there was a very particular look/angle I was going for that I don't want going to an evil character. I'll shelve that design and come up with a different elegant look.

That's cool then, I am developing a moveset for her, so you could get inspiration for her signature transformations.

 

[Glubbfubb]

You know what Kirbeh I don't really know what moveset I would give Curie, I want to keep the transformation gimmick but still be relatively grounded, do you have any ideas for what her moveset could be?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Developed a moveset for EPSILON, finally did that, quite like them.

 

[Kirbeh]

You know what Kirbeh I don't really know what moveset I would give Curie, I want to keep the transformation gimmick but still be relatively grounded, do you have any ideas for what her moveset could be?

I'll try and brainstorm some ideas tomorrow after work.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Do you guys think Smash Run could work as a rougelike, I am trying to make some ideas for other modes aside from battling, and I'm not ready for a story mode yet.

 

[Kirbeh]

Do you guys think Smash Run could work as a rougelike, I am trying to make some ideas for other modes aside from battling, and I'm not ready for a story mode yet.

I think something similar to Smash Run could work, honestly it lends itself really well to the rougelite format. That said, I would say it'd be best to keep the game's scope on the smaller side. Keep the focus on the versus mode, training mode, a simple arcade mode and online. A rougelite mode or more fleshed out story mode can be later additions. At most maybe one more mode for base game that has a goofy gimmick for casual play/change of pace from standard versus battles.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I think something similar to Smash Run could work, honestly it lends itself really well to the rougelite format. That said, I would say it'd be best to keep the game's scope on the smaller side. Keep the focus on the versus mode, training mode, a simple arcade mode and online. A rougelite mode or more fleshed out story mode can be later additions. At most maybe one more mode for base game that has a goofy gimmick for casual play/change of pace from standard versus battles.

Yeah I want to have some single player retention to encourage coming back for casual players.

 

[Glubbfubb]

We have 5 slots left for fighters, I want to say from an objective standpoint, how does the roster look?

 

[Glubbfubb]

I am considering making command input for my currently finished characters. Any suggestions for inputs or command ideas? I am prioritizing Aremi, Levi, and Wynnnie's command inputs over others.

 

[Kirbeh]

We have 5 slots left for fighters, I want to say from an objective standpoint, how does the roster look?

I mean, I don't think we could look at the roster objectively unless we had a decent sample size of opinions/input from a lot more people.

I can only give my subjective opinion in which case; I think it's a good spread of characters so far. However, as far as play styles go, I think we need another all-rounder and another rushdown character as the only one so far is Weevle who is a hybrid. Maybe one more unorthodox/specialist type character.

Looking at the characters themselves, Curies obviously needs some more work since her details haven't been fully decided. I will also say that I think Kowalski is the weakest link on the roster so far. Lore/story wise he's perfectly fine, but I feel that his moveset is underwhelming. His visual design also feels like a bit of a mismatch imo. (Also why is his name Kowalski specifically?)

I am considering making command input for my currently finished characters. Any suggestions for inputs or command ideas? I am prioritizing Aremi, Levi, and Wynnnie's command inputs over others.

None atm, but before getting into any of that, shouldn't the characters' regular attacks be decided first? And before going into that, I've been meaning to ask, what is the games control scheme anyway? Exactly the same as Smash? Are there any other additional universal mechanics?

 

[Glubbfubb]

I mean, I don't think we could look at the roster objectively unless we had a decent sample size of opinions/input from a lot more people.

I can only give my subjective opinion in which case; I think it's a good spread of characters so far. However, as far as play styles go, I think we need another all-rounder and another rushdown character as the only one so far is Weevle who is a hybrid. Maybe one more unorthodox/specialist type character.

Looking at the characters themselves, Curies obviously needs some more work since her details haven't been fully decided. I will also say that I think Kowalski is the weakest link on the roster so far. Lore/story wise he's perfectly fine, but I feel that his moveset is underwhelming. His visual design also feels like a bit of a mismatch imo. (Also why is his name Kowalski specifically?)


None atm, but before getting into any of that, shouldn't the characters' regular attacks be decided first? And before going into that, I've been meaning to ask, what is the games control scheme anyway? Exactly the same as Smash? Are there any other additional universal mechanics?

I'll add more balanced characters to the roster. Neutral attacks are hard to describe since just writing down how each kick is different gets tedious after a while, and they arnt as dynamic to talk about as the specials in my opinion.

To be honest, the core control scheme is still being determined in some places. I want it to feel like a Platfighter while trying to be distinct, but that causes me to go down a rabbit hole of other likeminded games. Like I wanted to have a strafe button, but I remembered that NASB has that too, I originally wanted more variety in options when shielding and ledging, but Rivals 2 is doing that. It's a big issue I have, and I hoped command inputs would be this game's main niche so to speak. And even then that could have its own issue of being too complicated to attract newbies, so even then there are issues. Do you get my issues?

 

[Kirbeh]

I'll add more balanced characters to the roster. Neutral attacks are hard to describe since just writing down how each kick is different gets tedious after a while, and they arnt as dynamic to talk about as the specials in my opinion.

To be honest, the core control scheme is still being determined in some places. I want it to feel like a Platfighter while trying to be distinct, but that causes me to go down a rabbit hole of other likeminded games. Like I wanted to have a strafe button, but I remembered that NASB has that too, I originally wanted more variety in options when shielding and ledging, but Rivals 2 is doing that. It's a big issue I have, and I hoped command inputs would be this game's main niche so to speak. And even then that could have its own issue of being too complicated to attract newbies, so even then there are issues. Do you get my issues?

I understand wanting your project to feel distinct and not have it be compared to other platform fighters, especially in an era where we're finally seeing a lot of new ones emerge as more devs throw their hats into the ring. However, functionality should always come first. No shame in borrowing a concept that works/feels fun to play, we wouldn't have a lot of things if people didn't iterate on existing ideas. I mean, making your own take on a platform fighter already counts as much. By that same token, don't feel obligated to shoehorn something in if you have reservations about it working well.

A few things to consider for example:

With your command idea in particular, I think you're going to have to really weigh what you want to prioritize and ask why you actually want to include them.

Are the commands only there to be distinct? If yes, are they worth alienating casuals and even veteran plat fighter players who aren't accustomed to them?

If you do want to include commands for specials and supers, will you offer an alternative? Perhaps an option for a more traditional plat fighter control scheme, similar to how Street Fighter 6 offers traditional controls and simpler controls for new players.

Do the commands truly make the game distinct? While uncommon in plat fighters, they're the norm for the overarching fighting game genre. Outside of input/execution they don't really affect the mechanics or dynamic of the game.

Going back to the other mechanics you were looking to include, so what if other games have them? If you really enjoy a particular mechanic, iterate/expand on it. Make it your own/your own version.



As for the normal attacks, it'd still be a good idea to have some descriptors for them, even if they're on the simpler side. It provides a baseline that can be worked on at least. And if you don't think they're as dynamic then make them be more dynamic. With a varied cast of alien characters, the odds of overlap are slimmer than if you were working with a more traditional cast of just human martial artists.

Take my criticisms of Kowalski's move set for example; I think his Up, Side and Down Specials would make for better Smash Attacks. They're all pretty simple attacks but have properties that could make his moveset dynamic focused on mobility.

Up Special as Up Smash would give him a strong anti-air that puts him in the air for a follow up to start an air combo. Plus, the animation just looks more natural as a grounded move considering he's springing off the staff like a tree branch.

Ditto to the above for Side Special, as the act of vaulting is dependent on using the ground to create firm leverage. Plus, with the moves reach, it could have the utility of vaulting over projectiles to punish opponents for poor spacing.

And then Down Special as a down smash would spear opponents as it emerges from ground and the wall it produces gives him a point to wall jump off of for different combo routes or other shenanigans.

After that, you revisit the bone theming (or maybe something else entirely) to give him a new set of specials that feel more special.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I'll add more balanced characters to the roster. Neutral attacks are hard to describe since just writing down how each kick is different gets tedious after a while, and they arnt as dynamic to talk about as the specials in my opinion.

To be honest, the core control scheme is still being determined in some places. I want it to feel like a Platfighter while trying to be distinct, but that causes me to go down a rabbit hole of other likeminded games. Like I wanted to have a strafe button, but I remembered that NASB has that too, I originally wanted more variety in options when shielding and ledging, but Rivals 2 is doing that. It's a big issue I have, and I hoped command inputs would be this game's main niche so to speak. And even then that could have its own issue of being too complicated to attract newbies, so even then there are issues. Do you get my issues?

If I may... I think I have a suggestion that'd be really unique?

Something I've not seen a platfighter do yet is act as a more direct cross between the mechanics of tradfighters and platfighters, and one interesting way to do so could perhaps be by changing the controls to lean more into the former. Bear in mind, this is just a suggestion - but hear me out!

Spoiler: pretty long description

My take on it would be loosely based on how fighting games for the NEOGEO Pocket Color worked - but we'd strip it back further, so that A and B are "light normal" and "heavy normal" respectively. You can gain additional attack options by holding a direction when you attack - akin to "command normals" or "tilts". These wouldn't specifically be a "punch" and a "kick" - just light attacks and heavy attacks, the specifics of which will depend on the character. For the sake of simplicity, moves would be the same both close to and far away from an opponent, more like in the Super Smash Bros. series - and to help with combos, I'd probably have a Beat system akin to Darkstalkers, where attacks can chain to each other in the order light->heavy->special.

I'd keep the grab/shield buttons on the R/ZR triggers for simplicity. I think having those as easily accessible options would help a lot, and if you keep it so that grabs go through shields but shields block attacks, that'd be a good way to balance it. Remember - don't make throws OP! Additionally, I'd keep taunts on a seperate button akin to Smash - but don't be afraid to make them have a function. One fun idea that springs to mind is how Art of Fighting handles it - namely, taunting reduces your opponent's Spirit Gauge, forcing a more aggressive and less campy playstyle because your options are actively limited if you choose to try and stay out of the way of combat. As for shield specifics - you could perhaps go with a Smash-styled "orb", though you could also go for a more traditional block that differs whether crouching or standing. In fact, you could even go for parries and perfect-shields as an additional mechanic, if you wanted!

However - there wouldn't be a "special button", as specials would be activated with (lenient) command inputs. Due to this, specials would need to be rethought - for instance, the traditional "recovery special" seen in platfighters wouldn't be as prominent, so they may be better-served to be used for offence. To balance this, characters would be universally given multiple wall-jumps (and maybe even a wall-slide) akin to MultiVersus or Brawlhalla, with stages being designed to reflect this (ie, having walls on their edges.) Additionally, stages would generally be slightly smaller to match the one-on-one gameplay, and characters could even be a little larger on the screen with this in mind.

As for Overmax, I'd maybe suggest some kind of "Overmax Meter" that builds up as you attack opponents, get hit, and - for some characters - unique stuff, like jumping, walking forward, and so forth. Each character - like in Street Fighter III: Third Strike - can pick between three Overmaxes, with the length of the meter bar increasing or decreasing depending on which one they choose. When full, they can input a new "super command" that allows them to use their Overmax. If you wanted additional meter play - you could easily then use this framework to include things like EX specials, a combo breaker mechanic, and other tools that would add a layer of strategy to meter use that isn't just Super Smash Bros.'s "wait for the FS Meter to fill up and then use it".

If you wanted to simplify things even further... you could have a "simplified" control scheme that allows holding a direction alongside an attack button to activate specials, then press both buttons simultaneously to activate supers, but I wouldn't have this as the main control scheme - just an option to help people get familiar with the game's other mechanics.

 

[Glubbfubb]

One other idea I had for controls was that there are more meter synergies than just Hypermax Attacks. Maybe by pressing one of the triggers while performing certain moves, you enhance that move while sacrificing some meter. You then press both back triggers to activate your Hypermax attack when it is filled all the way. Again, you can choose which Hypermax you use from the character select, but now certain Hypermax attacks require a certain amount of meter layers, going up to 3, to be usable, often compensating by higher potency or lesser risk. LAMBDA is a good example of such a concept, their Core Buster is a nuke of a move comparable to Jigglypuff's Rest in terms of KO power, but it also has the range of Rest as well, and instead of a long animation your punished with 100% damage to yourself if it misses. By contrast, their Super Nitro Krasher mode has no downsides aside from a costly 3-layer meter to fill, so its higher power means a higher reward. I imagine we can flesh out this mechanic more, maybe holding the meter button to spend it while performing a smash attack can give the user armor in exchange for a longer wind-up, or something else entirely. How does that sound?

 

[Kirbeh]

If I may... I think I have a suggestion that'd be really unique?

Something I've not seen a platfighter do yet is act as a more direct cross between the mechanics of tradfighters and platfighters, and one interesting way to do so could perhaps be by changing the controls to lean more into the former. Bear in mind, this is just a suggestion - but hear me out!

Spoiler: pretty long description

My take on it would be loosely based on how fighting games for the NEOGEO Pocket Color worked - but we'd strip it back further, so that A and B are "light normal" and "heavy normal" respectively. You can gain additional attack options by holding a direction when you attack - akin to "command normals" or "tilts". These wouldn't specifically be a "punch" and a "kick" - just light attacks and heavy attacks, the specifics of which will depend on the character. For the sake of simplicity, moves would be the same both close to and far away from an opponent, more like in the Super Smash Bros. series - and to help with combos, I'd probably have a Beat system akin to Darkstalkers, where attacks can chain to each other in the order light->heavy->special.

Spoiler: pretty long description

I would argue that NASB2 already does this in a way by having dedicated light and heavy buttons, though it lacks a beat system or magic series like Darkstalkers/Vs Capcom. On the subject of magic series, I did bring up newly emerging platform fighters in my last post. If you haven't seen it already, I highly recommend checking out the gameplay showcase for Combo Devils that was shown off at Throne last month. It's a really intriguing and promising entry in the genre. It's got magic series, air dashes, a different take on percent that instead fills a meter that prevents you from doing stuff like teching if it gets full, etc.

I'd keep the grab/shield buttons on the R/ZR triggers for simplicity. I think having those as easily accessible options would help a lot, and if you keep it so that grabs go through shields but shields block attacks, that'd be a good way to balance it. Remember - don't make throws OP! Additionally, I'd keep taunts on a seperate button akin to Smash - but don't be afraid to make them have a function. One fun idea that springs to mind is how Art of Fighting handles it - namely, taunting reduces your opponent's Spirit Gauge, forcing a more aggressive and less campy playstyle because your options are actively limited if you choose to try and stay out of the way of combat.

That actually sounds like a lot of fun! I haven't played any of the Art of Fighting games but now I wish more games did that. It's always neat to see games that give taunts actual functions. Third Strike is another good example since you can try to apply buffs to you own character at the risk of getting punished.

As for shield specifics - you could perhaps go with a Smash-styled "orb", though you could also go for a more traditional block that differs whether crouching or standing. In fact, you could even go for parries and perfect-shields as an additional mechanic, if you wanted!

This is actually what I want to implement in my own project that I'm working on. Characters have the option to either block or put up a barrier (shield,) Blocking still leaves you vulnerable to high-low mix ups, cross ups and chip damage, while the barrier functions closer to a Smash shield, blocking all damage from all directions but at the cost of mana (meter, but it's a more fantasy themed setting.) The meter in question isn't actually the same one that builds super, but a secondary resource tied to a few other defense/mobility mechanics.

However - there wouldn't be a "special button", as specials would be activated with (lenient) command inputs. Due to this, specials would need to be rethought - for instance, the traditional "recovery special" seen in platfighters wouldn't be as prominent, so they may be better-served to be used for offence. To balance this, characters would be universally given multiple wall-jumps (and maybe even a wall-slide) akin to MultiVersus or Brawlhalla, with stages being designed to reflect this (ie, having walls on their edges.) Additionally, stages would generally be slightly smaller to match the one-on-one gameplay, and characters could even be a little larger on the screen with this in mind.

Is it weird that the first thing that came to mind from this was a 2D Power Stone? I'd like to see a game that tries this honestly, seems like it could be pretty interesting. I think this particular style would benefit from using traditional life bars though given the reduced focus on ring outs and recovery moves. An off stage "KO"/ring out would probably still take a good chuck of health though.

As for Overmax, I'd maybe suggest some kind of "Overmax Meter" that builds up as you attack opponents, get hit, and - for some characters - unique stuff, like jumping, walking forward, and so forth. Each character - like in Street Fighter III: Third Strike - can pick between three Overmaxes, with the length of the meter bar increasing or decreasing depending on which one they choose. When full, they can input a new "super command" that allows them to use their Overmax. If you wanted additional meter play - you could easily then use this framework to include things like EX specials, a combo breaker mechanic, and other tools that would add a layer of strategy to meter use that isn't just Super Smash Bros.'s "wait for the FS Meter to fill up and then use it".

While I do like Third Strike's super system, I do prefer when games give the player access to all their characters' supers. I think it makes the flow of the match more dynamic and offers more opportunities for player expression if you have multiple options to use in different situations over just building towards the one super.

Overall, a lot of neat suggestions and ideas.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Spoiler: pretty long description

I would argue that NASB2 already does this in a way by having dedicated light and heavy buttons, though it lacks a beat system or magic series like Darkstalkers/Vs Capcom. On the subject of magic series, I did bring up newly emerging platform fighters in my last post. If you haven't seen it already, I highly recommend checking out the gameplay showcase for Combo Devils that was shown off at Throne last month. It's a really intriguing and promising entry in the genre. It's got magic series, air dashes, a different take on percent that instead fills a meter that prevents you from doing stuff like teching if it gets full, etc.



That actually sounds like a lot of fun! I haven't played any of the Art of Fighting games but now I wish more games did that. It's always neat to see games that give taunts actual functions. Third Strike is another good example since you can try to apply buffs to you own character at the risk of getting punished.



This is actually what I want to implement in my own project that I'm working on. Characters have the option to either block or put up a barrier (shield,) Blocking still leaves you vulnerable to high-low mix ups, cross ups and chip damage, while the barrier functions closer to a Smash shield, blocking all damage from all directions but at the cost of mana (meter, but it's a more fantasy themed setting.) The meter in question isn't actually the same one that builds super, but a secondary resource tied to a few other defense/mobility mechanics.



Is it weird that the first thing that came to mind from this was a 2D Power Stone? I'd like to see a game that tries this honestly, seems like it could be pretty interesting. I think this particular style would benefit from using traditional life bars though given the reduced focus on ring outs and recovery moves. An off stage "KO"/ring out would probably still take a good chuck of health though.



While I do like Third Strike's super system, I do prefer when games give the player access to all their characters' supers. I think it makes the flow of the match more dynamic and offers more opportunities for player expression if you have multiple options to use in different situations over just building towards the one super.

Overall, a lot of neat suggestions and ideas.

What of my idea, I feel like it can work as well

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

One other idea I had for controls was that there are more meter synergies than just Hypermax Attacks. Maybe by pressing one of the triggers while performing certain moves, you enhance that move while sacrificing some meter. You then press both back triggers to activate your Hypermax attack when it is filled all the way. Again, you can choose which Hypermax you use from the character select, but now certain Hypermax attacks require a certain amount of meter layers, going up to 3, to be usable, often compensating by higher potency or lesser risk. LAMBDA is a good example of such a concept, their Core Buster is a nuke of a move comparable to Jigglypuff's Rest in terms of KO power, but it also has the range of Rest as well, and instead of a long animation your punished with 100% damage to yourself if it misses. By contrast, their Super Nitro Krasher mode has no downsides aside from a costly 3-layer meter to fill, so its higher power means a higher reward.

I imagine we can flesh out this mechanic more, maybe holding the meter button to spend it while performing a smash attack can give the user armor in exchange for a longer wind-up, or something else entirely. How does that sound?

Firstly: more meter synergies is a good call. Depending on how you're going to handle combos (given you mentioned wanting to have combo-heavy gameplay), it might be worth having a combo breaker that allows a player to escape so they don't just get zero-to-death'd. I also like the idea you suggest of enhancing a move... but I'd personally have you input both normal buttons simultaneously, more akin to how Darkstalkers or Street Fighter handled it. That way, you can use the back triggers for shielding/parrying, and the front triggers for grabs/throws. I'd also personally have a unique special input for Hypermaxes, such as, for example, 236236->A+B.

That said... I think meter stocks could be interesting, but I'm not sure how balanced they'd be. I think this would depend on whether you'd want to standardise meter length so everyone's is the same, but have Overmax attacks use a different number of stocks (ie, some use all 3 stocks, others use only 2) akin to A-ISM in Street Fighter Alpha 2 - or don't have meter stocks, and have everyone's meter length be one of a few discrete sizes, akin to Third Strike. Though, I will say, while meter stocks would be way more intuitive for things like EX specials and combo breakers, I'm not sure if they'd gel well with having to select only one Overmax.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Firstly: more meter synergies is a good call. Depending on how you're going to handle combos (given you mentioned wanting to have combo-heavy gameplay), it might be worth having a combo breaker that allows a player to escape so they don't just get zero-to-death'd. I also like the idea you suggest of enhancing a move... but I'd personally have you input both normal buttons simultaneously, more akin to how Darkstalkers or Street Fighter handled it. That way, you can use the back triggers for shielding/parrying, and the front triggers for grabs/throws. I'd also personally have a unique special input for Hypermaxes, such as, for example, 236236->A+B.

That said... I think meter stocks could be interesting, but I'm not sure how balanced they'd be. I think this would depend on whether you'd want to standardise meter length so everyone's is the same, but have Overmax attacks use a different number of stocks (ie, some use all 3 stocks, others use only 2) akin to A-ISM in Street Fighter Alpha 2 - or don't have meter stocks, and have everyone's meter length be one of a few discrete sizes, akin to Third Strike. Though, I will say, while meter stocks would be way more intuitive for things like EX specials and combo breakers, I'm not sure if they'd gel well with having to select only one Overmax.

So essentially alongside every character having their A button be neutral attacks and B button be special attacks, pressing both together can enhance the specials into "meter attacks." That is what I am gathering from your ideas.

The Hypermax balancing issue is tricky since each level of hypermax is quite different and has their own utility, so I don't know HOW to order them. I also think having the front left trigger be grabs, the front right trigger be shields, and back left trigger for dodges, and the back right trigger for strafing, would possible be the best choice for control sequence.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I would argue that NASB2 already does this in a way by having dedicated light and heavy buttons, though it lacks a beat system or magic series like Darkstalkers/Vs Capcom. On the subject of magic series, I did bring up newly emerging platform fighters in my last post. If you haven't seen it already, I highly recommend checking out the gameplay showcase for Combo Devils that was shown off at Throne last month. It's a really intriguing and promising entry in the genre. It's got magic series, air dashes, a different take on percent that instead fills a meter that prevents you from doing stuff like teching if it gets full, etc.

I actually came across Combo Devils fairly recently because of its directional shield system, which I honestly think is really fun - airdashes are honestly kind of interesting to me, because on the one hand they'd probably be a great fit into a platfighter, but on the other hand giving everyone an airdash means everyone also has an additional recovery tool, making games arguably last longer. It'd need tweaking, but I think it has potential. Also - I knew I remembered a game that had a system like that! I just forgot it was NASB, ahahah

That actually sounds like a lot of fun! I haven't played any of the Art of Fighting games but now I wish more games did that. It's always neat to see games that give taunts actual functions. Third Strike is another good example since you can try to apply buffs to you own character at the risk of getting punished.

I honestly love it too, Third Strike handles this really well and it's a great way to add an additional degree of strategy.

This is actually what I want to implement in my own project that I'm working on. Characters have the option to either block or put up a barrier (shield,) Blocking still leaves you vulnerable to high-low mix ups, cross ups and chip damage, while the barrier functions closer to a Smash shield, blocking all damage from all directions but at the cost of mana (meter, but it's a more fantasy themed setting.) The meter in question isn't actually the same one that builds super, but a secondary resource tied to a few other defense/mobility mechanics.

This sounds really fun! I think the idea of blocking still having vulnerabilities but being useful is fun, and a mana system sounds like a really unique but cool way of exploring a dual-defense system. Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen something like that before!

Is it weird that the first thing that came to mind from this was a 2D Power Stone? I'd like to see a game that tries this honestly, seems like it could be pretty interesting. I think this particular style would benefit from using traditional life bars though given the reduced focus on ring outs and recovery moves. An off stage "KO"/ring out would probably still take a good chuck of health though.

Honestly, this is true - traditional life-bars would probably be a way better fit for something like this, and I reckon you could even make an argument for a "ring out" to take all of an opponent's health if you give them ample opportunity to recover from it with things like walljumps and the like.

While I do like Third Strike's super system, I do prefer when games give the player access to all their characters' supers. I think it makes the flow of the match more dynamic and offers more opportunities for player expression if you have multiple options to use in different situations over just building towards the one super.

Honestly, I kind of agree - I mainly suggested it like this because Glubbfubb originally wanted players to have to pick a super, which was supposed to be the appeal of the whole Overmax system. I guess either way has its uses, though.

 

[Kirbeh]

What of my idea, I feel like it can work as well

I mean, you're pretty much describing EX moves, so yeah, those can absolutely work. Ditto for the variable supers/Hypermaxes.

I will echo Knee's sentiment on the input for performing them, but I don't think they necessarily need to be tied to the face buttons. When traditional fg control schemes are converted over to pad, the heavy button will often be on the shoulder/bumper button. Street Fighter has Heavy Punch on the bumper and Guilty Gear places Dust on this button for example. If you want to use the right bumper as a dedicated EX modifier, I think that could work too, but it depends on how you want the control scheme to be.

You'll need to figure out what kind of attack system you'll be using and then try to settle on a good control mapping.