Social Skyworld Hub - "Soaring through the Skys"

[LancerStaff]

Yeah, Pit should definitely just stick with what he's got. The SSB4 revamp made tons of sense since Brawl Pit was broke as heck along with most of the Brawl cast but that's not the point and had a new game to take stuff from. His next game is probably going to be KIU+/2 so we probably shouldn't worry about adding new stuff. Sakurai also had it right not making them use fifty different weapons because they can. His bow is his main weapon, and it's the most versatile of what he's got. Bows in KIU were usually pretty versatile in gameplay too, sometimes more then Blades. Palutena Bow is garbage but that's also not the point.

Dark Pit... Still kinda torn over what they should do to him. They're not going to give him a whole new moveset unless it's a really interesting concept, and I'm drawing a blank as to what he could do with just about any weapon. As far as A moves and stuff it'd just be whacking people around with whatever you give him. Specials, again, I can't think of any really big things that'd make the character. It's probably for the best he sticks with the Bow.

So if Pittwo is a clone again, then what should they do with his moves? That's a pretty major problem, because as it stands Pit is probably the most balanced character on the roster. The slower, more powerful idea would hurt him pretty bad, but then faster and weaker would probably invalidate Pit if not for some major drawback. Taking a Lucas route and changing things for the sake of change would be a horrible idea considering he's worse then Ness in every way that matters. So at large he should stay the same, namely the A moves.

So if Dark Pit's A moves were the same, then his playstyle differences should largely come from his specials. If Pit's anti-camp, Dark Pit should be anti-rushdown. So a large, slow arrow that eats shields but lacks range, and a Cannon shot that functions something like Snake's Usmash but with a lingering explosion which also helps with how Pit has an effective projectile for hitting people offstage and up above but he doesn't for his Nspecial and Dspecial.

Actually, part of what I like about Pit is how his default moveset is kinda vanilla. You can add just about anything, be it a playstyle or new specials, and he'll basically become it.

Honestly, dear, my priorities are so innately focused on proving Pit is a good character, I forget how Robin even functions.

Ain't as bad as me. I'm physically incapable of playing anybody else. Including my past mains in the games I played as them.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

This is news to me.

Source?

Incidentally, "between high and mid" is high-mid-tier. A respectable position, which is where Pit actually is.

Unfortunately everytime I look for it after the first 3 times, it's always locked for some reason. I think it was near the end of October that it was released.

Duck Hunt and Pacman are considered none of those things by anyone.

Trust me it has happened before, probably never again though.

Duck Hunt has no right occupying the top spot in any tier list without zigzag shot, and even then that's so unexplored it's hard to say.

Not sure about Pac, but Peepers stopped being used lot, which lead to him being ranked lower over time.

 

[Tito Maas]

Okay so Roy just UpB'd through the heart of my Upperdash's super armor for the win--point blank in his face. If that attack doesn't have invincible startup, I don't want to ever hear that I'm not using that attack "close enough" ever again in my damn life.

It's no way that after all these months, it's still that people "don't know how to use" the SideB's super armor. It's janky for no freaking reason.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Okay so Roy just UpB'd through the heart of my Upperdash's super armor for the win--point blank in his face. If that attack doesn't have invincible startup, I don't want to ever hear that I'm not using that attack "close enough" ever again in my damn life.

It's not way that after all these months, it's still that people "don't know how to use" the SideB's super armor. It's janky for no freaking reason.

Both moves have super armor, and Ive never dealt with this problem before, except the other way around of course. Upperdashed right through Roy's UpB like a boss.

 

[meleebrawler]

Taking a Lucas route and changing things for the sake of change would be a horrible idea considering he's worse then Ness in every way that matters.

So having a completely different gameplan is bad if it's not the same as a top tier's?

Lucas has a better zoning game (rope snake and recoil assisted PK Fires, and an actually usable neutral b), anti-zoning (faster reflecting fsmash and a more potent magnet) and recovery (tether option plus PK Thunder 2 that goes ridiculously far).

While Ness has a relatively simple and consistent plan of pressuring with his aerials so that he can get his grabs, Lucas plays around being much more difficult to approach and then capitalizing on mistakes made.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Roy's Blazer has both invincibility and super armor (why a move needs both of these, I don't know). You probably collided with it during its Invincibility frames.

Also, I've been on Anther's Ladder with 100% . Made a variety of people really salty. Impressed quite a few others. I record all of my ranked sets so I can review them. They come out in great quality so I may upload them for critique. I am more apt to upload offline sets but I might do it anyway for MU advice. Learning a lot, very fast with Pit. Having a blast doing it. Definitely picked the right character to go alongside my MK.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Roy's Blazer has both invincibility and super armor (why a move needs both of these, I don't know). You probably collided with it during its Invincibility frames.

Also, I've been on Anther's Ladder with 100% . Made a variety of people really salty. Impressed quite a few others. I record all of my ranked sets so I can review them. They come out in great quality so I may upload them for critique. I am more apt to upload offline sets but I might do it anyway for MU advice. Learning a lot, very fast with Pit. Having a blast doing it. Definitely picked the right character to go alongside my MK.

Great job.

 

[LancerStaff]

Okay so Roy just UpB'd through the heart of my Upperdash's super armor for the win--point blank in his face. If that attack doesn't have invincible startup, I don't want to ever hear that I'm not using that attack "close enough" ever again in my damn life.

It's no way that after all these months, it's still that people "don't know how to use" the SideB's super armor. It's janky for no freaking reason.

There's this complicated thing for when two moves with SA collide... Something to do with timing. That's also why when two Arms used at roughly the same time clash both characters get hit.

So having a completely different gameplan is bad if it's not the same as a top tier's?

Lucas has a better zoning game (rope snake and recoil assisted PK Fires, and an actually usable neutral b), anti-zoning (faster reflecting fsmash and a more potent magnet) and recovery (tether option plus PK Thunder 2 that goes ridiculously far).

While Ness has a relatively simple and consistent plan of pressuring with his aerials so that he can get his grabs, Lucas plays around being much more difficult to approach and then capitalizing on mistakes made.

Having a different gameplan almost solely because of what the character can't do is bad, yes. Don't you remember?

Ness is a top tier character, while Lucas is low and approaching bottom. He is bottom with customs on. All because they wanted him to be "unique." Besides having a Zair absolutely not being worth the trade-off of having the absolute worst grab in the game, he also lacks Ness's Fair, can't use the projectile part of Uspecial as anything but recovery due to absurd lag that Ness lacks... Even most of his A moves are worse, and most that aren't worse are merely equal.

 

[Wintropy]

@ LancerStaff , not to be a jerk, but didn't you say you physically can't play any character other than Pit?

I would be wary of making snap judgements about characters you have no direct knowledge of.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ LancerStaff , not to be a jerk, but didn't you say you physically can't play any character other than Pit?

I would be wary of making snap judgements about characters you have no direct knowledge of.

It's one thing to not be able to play as a character, and another to not be able to recognize it's tools or lack thereof.

That, and I'm hearing every other good player say he's absolute trash. Amazing Amphardos of the custom moveset project says he's bottom five, although I don't think he's quite that bad.

 

[Wintropy]

It's one thing to not be able to play as a character, and another to not be able to recognize it's tools or lack thereof.

That, and I'm hearing every other good player say he's absolute trash. Amazing Amphardos of the custom moveset project says he's bottom five, although I don't think he's quite that bad.

Theory does not equate to practice.

You can't absolutely say something has no value unless you've tested it yourself and have reached that empirical conclusion.

I know plenty of Lucas players who understand the character fundamentally and would make a strong case to suggest he's at least mid-tier, if not higher.

That and it's been, what, a month since he was released? Why jilt the bride before you've even become acquainted?

 

[Tito Maas]

There's this complicated thing for when two moves with SA collide... Something to do with timing. That's also why when two Arms used at roughly the same time clash both characters get hit.



Having a different gameplan almost solely because of what the character can't do is bad, yes. Don't you remember?

Ness is a top tier character, while Lucas is low and approaching bottom. He is bottom with customs on. All because they wanted him to be "unique." Besides having a Zair absolutely not being worth the trade-off of having the absolute worst grab in the game, he also lacks Ness's Fair, can't use the projectile part of Uspecial as anything but recovery due to absurd lag that Ness lacks... Even most of his A moves are worse, and most that aren't worse are merely equal.

Just to intervene, Lucas is only bottom in customs because he has no customs.

And Lucas is a character who is completely inferior to his counterpart, but that example doesn't blanket the concept. Again, look at Luigi, Falco, and Wolf. Roy v. Marth.

 

[Koiba]

I'm too lazy to read the last 5 pages what happened?

 

[Tito Maas]

Theory does not equate to practice.

You can't absolutely say something has no value unless you've tested it yourself and have reached that empirical conclusion.

I know plenty of Lucas players who understand the character fundamentally and would make a strong case to suggest he's at least mid-tier, if not higher.

That and it's been, what, a month since he was released? Why jilt the bride before you've even become acquainted?

Eh nah, he's not higher than mid-tier. Why do mains of characters always want people to believe their characters are better than what they are? There's no argument for Lucas to be better than low to mid mid-tier

 

[Wintropy]

Eh nah, he's not higher than mid-tier. Why do mains of characters always want people to believe their characters are better than what they are? There's no argument for Lucas to be better than low to mid mid-tier

Because they know the character and have dedicated their time and effort to understanding how the character works?

It's very easy to say "X character is Y tier because Z reason", but honestly, a lot of the time it's just theory-crafting with no verifiable evidence to back it up. That goes for both side of the equation, of course - hence why most tier lists are practically fallible.

 

[Tito Maas]

Because they know the character and have dedicated their time and effort to understanding how the character works?

It's very easy to say "X character is Y tier because Z reason", but honestly, a lot of the time it's just theory-crafting with no verifiable evidence to back it up. That goes for both side of the equation, of course - hence why most tier lists are practically fallible.

Understanding how your character works doesn't include only positives.

Just because you're good with a character doesn't mean he's better than what he is.

Kinda like Pit and how people ITT want him to be low high-tier. He's not.

And tier lists are pretty accurate. Anti-tier listers seem to be under the impression that tier lists are made to tell you what characters you can't win with.

 

[LancerStaff]

Theory does not equate to practice.

You can't absolutely say something has no value unless you've tested it yourself and have reached that empirical conclusion.

I know plenty of Lucas players who understand the character fundamentally and would make a strong case to suggest he's at least mid-tier, if not higher.

That and it's been, what, a month since he was released? Why jilt the bride before you've even become acquainted?

It's not theory. I don't just throw out a few attacks in training, I make sure to play against the character a decent amount and put in research before making a judgement if we don't have tournament results to back it up. Wasn't that hard to find a Lucas to play since a friend mains him and Ness, and I've had the chance to play with other Lucas players as well.

Some characters I feel that I under or overrate because of their matchup with Pit, but Lucas isn't the type to be weak to Pit in particular. A month may be a little quick, but we have another fifty characters to compare him to.

The big thing is his grab. It's the worst grab in the game. The only good character with a tether is ZSS, but she has plenty of ways to keep people at a range where it's effective. Lucas does not. ZSS has good ways to catch people trying to jump over it. Lucas does not. At least Pac's has a "lingering hitbox" of sorts that at least limits the punish, Lucas's doesn't have any redeeming qualities. And in a game where grabs are so important, he just isn't effective.

Just to intervene, Lucas is only bottom in customs because he has no customs.

And Lucas is a character who is completely inferior to his counterpart, but that example doesn't blanket the concept. Again, look at Luigi, Falco, and Wolf. Roy v. Marth.

Hm, just noticed you have Lucas as a main. Now that I think about it, Lucas might be the type that can't really deal with jank and windboxes, but most of my experience with customs is through Pit so I can't really say.

Falco is still pretty bad, but at least he's playable now. He's not really viable though... With Wolf, who can say with SSB4's mechanics? Fox can properly combo now, and we've had a bunch of techs that bumped Wolf up removed. Roy Vs. Marth I think is close. Not because I think Roy is that bad, but because Marth had some pretty big changes last patch.

I'm too lazy to read the last 5 pages what happened?

Just arguing about Lucas's placement. In the Pit social.

Understanding how your character works doesn't include only positives.

Just because you're good with a character doesn't mean he's better than what he is.

Kinda like Pit and how people ITT want him to be low high-tier. He's not.

And tier lists are pretty accurate. Anti-tier listers seem to be under the impression that tier lists are made to tell you what characters you can't win with.

Hey, Japan puts Pit on top of B last patch and the viability poll had Pit as a notable threat in the top twenty. He's fine.

 

[Wintropy]

Understanding how your character works doesn't include only positives.

Just because you're good with a character doesn't mean he's better than what he is.

Kinda like Pit and how people ITT want him to be low high-tier. He's not.

And tier lists are pretty accurate. Anti-tier listers seem to be under the impression that tier lists are made to tell you what characters you can't win with.

I was actually saying that this conversation is essentially redundant, as to my knowledge, none of us understand the character in question very well.

How can you objectively say "he's not X tier"? Tier lists are "pretty accurate" because they're based on a variety of factors, including:

- The character's individual toolkit and its application in a competitive environment
- Matchups with other characters, especially high / top-tiers
- Consistency of competitive efficacy
- Representation in official tournaments and consistency of results

Saying "this character's toolkit isn't as good as that character's toolkit, ergo he's a poor character" is baseless theorycrafting. I have to stress that it's been barely a month since these characters have been released - half a year on and we still can't come to a communal consensus on where the vast majority of mid-tier characters are.

Until we have verifiable evidence to demonstrate the full potential of the character in question, we're really just clutching at straws, which includes mains of this character.

It's not theory. I don't just throw out a few attacks in training, I make sure to play against the character a decent amount and put in research before making a judgement if we don't have tournament results to back it up. Wasn't that hard to find a Lucas to play since a friend mains him and Ness, and I've had the chance to play with other Lucas players as well.

Some characters I feel that I under or overrate because of their matchup with Pit, but Lucas isn't the type to be weak to Pit in particular. A month may be a little quick, but we have another fifty characters to compare him to.

The big thing is his grab. It's the worst grab in the game. The only good character with a tether is ZSS, but she has plenty of ways to keep people at a range where it's effective. Lucas does not. ZSS has good ways to catch people trying to jump over it. Lucas does not. At least Pac's has a "lingering hitbox" of sorts that at least limits the punish, Lucas's doesn't have any redeeming qualities. And in a game where grabs are so important, he just isn't effective.

Playing against the character a few times isn't really much to go on.

You're kind of drastically disregarding everything else the character can do.

EDIT: I'm just gonna drop it at that.

I have no interest in pursuing this conversation any further if it's just going to go in circles indefinitely.

 

[LancerStaff]

I was actually saying that this conversation is essentially redundant, as to my knowledge, none of us understand the character in question very well.

How can you objectively say "he's not X tier"? Tier lists are "pretty accurate" because they're based on a variety of factors, including:

- The character's individual toolkit and its application in a competitive environment
- Matchups with other characters, especially high / top-tiers
- Consistency of competitive efficacy
- Representation in official tournaments and consistency of results

Saying "this character's toolkit isn't as good as that character's toolkit, ergo he's a poor character" is baseless theorycrafting. I have to stress that it's been barely a month since these characters have been released - half a year on and we still can't come to a communal consensus on where the vast majority of mid-tier characters are.

Until we have verifiable evidence to demonstrate the full potential of the character in question, we're really just clutching at straws, which includes mains of this character.



Playing against the character a few times isn't really much to go on.

You're kind of drastically disregarding everything else the character can do.

It's not just a few times... I told you, I'm putting serious effort into what I'm doing. I don't just say things like this without serious consideration.

Edit: Didn't see your edit. Sorry, I'll stop.

 

[Tito Maas]

It's not theory. I don't just throw out a few attacks in training, I make sure to play against the character a decent amount and put in research before making a judgement if we don't have tournament results to back it up. Wasn't that hard to find a Lucas to play since a friend mains him and Ness, and I've had the chance to play with other Lucas players as well.

Some characters I feel that I under or overrate because of their matchup with Pit, but Lucas isn't the type to be weak to Pit in particular. A month may be a little quick, but we have another fifty characters to compare him to.

The big thing is his grab. It's the worst grab in the game. The only good character with a tether is ZSS, but she has plenty of ways to keep people at a range where it's effective. Lucas does not. ZSS has good ways to catch people trying to jump over it. Lucas does not. At least Pac's has a "lingering hitbox" of sorts that at least limits the punish, Lucas's doesn't have any redeeming qualities. And in a game where grabs are so important, he just isn't effective.



Hm, just noticed you have Lucas as a main. Now that I think about it, Lucas might be the type that can't really deal with jank and windboxes, but most of my experience with customs is through Pit so I can't really say.

Falco is still pretty bad, but at least he's playable now. He's not really viable though... With Wolf, who can say with SSB4's mechanics? Fox can properly combo now, and we've had a bunch of techs that bumped Wolf up removed. Roy Vs. Marth I think is close. Not because I think Roy is that bad, but because Marth had some pretty big changes last patch.



Just arguing about Lucas's placement. In the Pit social.



Hey, Japan puts Pit on top of B last patch and the viability poll had Pit as a notable threat in the top twenty. He's fine.

I didn't say Pit wasn't fine. But I'm not gonna say he's better than he is. Don't misconstrue not being a top tier as "something is wrong with this character". The issue with the top tiers is that nothing is wrong with them and flaws can only be found in relation to other Top 10'ers. That doesn't mean Pit isn't well balanced or has a problem.

I don't think a clone character in concept has to be better than their counterpart. I just think it's important to offer a different style of play and cover weaknesses that the original can't. Falco isn't great in Smash 4 but that certainly doesn't speak for his track record since Melee. Wolf was considered to be pretty good in Brawl and was viable because of the differences between him, Fox, and Falco. I don't need Dark Pit to be better, but I need to have a reason to choose one over the other and matchups where one excels over the other. As it stands, there aren't enough differences between the two for it to matter on an overall scale.

Lucas just sucks in comparison to Ness because not a single tool he has is better than Ness's besides PK Magnet, jab, FSmash and situationally, UpSmashUpSmash. They gave Lucas all the weaknesses Ness should have and called it a day. If you go that route, yeah, of course it's a failed effort. I don't even think there are any matchups where Lucas had an advantage over Ness.

 

[Tito Maas]

I was actually saying that this conversation is essentially redundant, as to my knowledge, none of us understand the character in question very well.

How can you objectively say "he's not X tier"? Tier lists are "pretty accurate" because they're based on a variety of factors, including:

- The character's individual toolkit and its application in a competitive environment
- Matchups with other characters, especially high / top-tiers
- Consistency of competitive efficacy
- Representation in official tournaments and consistency of results

Saying "this character's toolkit isn't as good as that character's toolkit, ergo he's a poor character" is baseless theorycrafting. I have to stress that it's been barely a month since these characters have been released - half a year on and we still can't come to a communal consensus on where the vast majority of mid-tier characters are.

Until we have verifiable evidence to demonstrate the full potential of the character in question, we're really just clutching at straws, which includes mains of this character.

It's like when people talk about their character's relativity in a tier list, they forget that their character isn't the only characet on the tier list. As good as your character is, there's always some relativity to the other characters in the game that's factored into tier lists as well.

Any dummy who wants to say Lucas is above mid-tier (I'm laughing at the idea) has probably answered these things for himself:

- The character's individual toolkit and its application in a competitive environment
- Matchups with other characters, especially high / top-tiers
- Consistency of competitive efficacy
- Representation in official tournaments and consistency of results

But he doesn't answer another important question or two:

- "What does this character do better than anyone else?"
- "Are this characters best tools better than other character's best tools in other situations? Which characters?"
- And for clones, "What can this character do better than its counterpart? is there a reason why I should use this character over the original?" In Lucas's case, the answer is "not much" and "no, not really", respectively.

That's why it seems like people want to rank their favorite characters higher than they should be, because they're not taking into account, well, the rest of the tier list.

For example, Pit. He's high mid-tier because of different things he can do relative to the characters below him. But he's not in the class of the characters above him because of simply... mechanics. And what makes the top tier characters top tier mostly comes down to mechanics and frame data. That's where that comparison to the other characters has to come in.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Let's all talk about hot springs instead of what rank Pit and Lucas are in.

 

[SilverWolfLaguz]

Who has two thumbs and loves hot springs? Everybody with two thumbs!

 

[LancerStaff]

Hot springs are fun and easy to wear!

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Who has two thumbs and loves hot springs? Everybody with two thumbs!

Hot Springs stage confirmed for Smash 5

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm not gonna try to argue @ LancerStaff 's points about Lucas any further, but I will say that it's stupid to think any less
of Lucas just because he can't do the same things Ness can, because as it stands he's barely a clone. Judge him all you want otherwise, but understand that Lucas's gameplan is almost completely different and thus has almost no comparison to how Ness plays.

 

[Tito Maas]

Let's all talk about hot springs instead of what rank Pit and Lucas are in.

Let's talk about grab setups. I played a good Luigi and Fox the past couple of days who have some awesome combos into grabs and setups into grabs that I'm just not great against. Does Pit have any of these setups? I feel I rely on the grab too much, so what can we do to mix up getting the grab on people besides, well, just pressing the grab button?

Also, can we talk about the Luigi matchup in general? Was playing this dude I usually wreck but his Luigi (his secondary, mind you) was dominating with the fireball-to-grab setup. I have a harder time with Luigis and ZSS than I do dudes like DeDeDe, who I guess is supposed to be a bad matchup for the Pits?

I'm not gonna try to argue @ LancerStaff 's points about Lucas any further, but I will say that it's stupid to think any less
of Lucas just because he can't do the same things Ness can, because as it stands he's barely a clone. Judge him all you want otherwise, but understand that Lucas's gameplan is almost completely different and thus has almost no comparison to how Ness plays.

Eh.

Lucas plays differently from Ness, but he's still similar to Ness in that there isn't really anything he can do that Ness can't do better. The incentive to play Lucas is, well, lacking right now.

Lucas right now is my 2nd but he's probably better as a pocket. Matches up well against Luigi.

 

[Koiba]

Pit mains what percentages does upperdash kill without rage?

 

[LancerStaff]

Upperdash KOs at 141% in training on FD against Mario on SSB3D. For reference, Electroshock KOs at 136% on Mario's default position (thank you reset button) and 186% smack-dab in the middle off the respawn platform under the same conditions. As usual in training, rage and stale/fresh moves do not apply.

I prefer to use the Upperdash and Electroshock largely as a punish tool myself, so I tend to get offstage KOs off of earlier Electroshocks.

Hm... We don't have SSBU KO%s, do we? Yaknow, I'll get on that tonight and put it all in a topic when I can.

 

[SilverWolfLaguz]

Pit mains what percentages does upperdash kill without rage?

Disclaimer: Tested in training mode, where there's no rage effect or stale/freshness, against a Level 9 Stop CPU on Final Destination. Only tested the extreme ends, the midpoint, a certain king, and mirror match.

155%
109%
// 142% (Presumably Villager and Luigi are here too)
176%

 

[meleebrawler]

Eh.

Lucas plays differently from Ness, but he's still similar to Ness in that there isn't really anything he can do that Ness can't do better. The incentive to play Lucas is, well, lacking right now.

He zones better with a zair and a faster PK Fire of which the mid-air recoil can make totally safe. He counters other zoners better with a faster reflector and a more powerful magnet. He recovers better purely due to access to a tether and the insane distance his PK Thunder 2 can travel.

It's not a matter of Lucas not being able to do anything Ness does better, but that the things Ness DOES do better happen to work better in the context of Smash 4 and with more ease.

Really the whole "why play Lucas when Ness is better" mentality is just toxic and prevents people from seeing Lucas for his own merits.

 

[Wintropy]

Old-school, rock-hard, 2D Kid Icarus platformer.

Classic gameplay, new design.

That'd be fun.

I'd play it.

 

[SilverWolfLaguz]

I have these stupid on and off thoughts of a Mario & Luigi-style RPG starring Pit and his doppelganger. Most of the "Bros Attacks" usually end up with me imagining DP using Pit as the weapon though.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I have these stupid on and off thoughts of a Mario & Luigi-style RPG starring Pit and his doppelganger. Most of the "Bros Attacks" usually end up with me imagining DP using Pit as the weapon though.

I imagined Pot would powerbombing DP through a hoard of Underworld enemies, and DP using Mario's back throw on Pit.

 

[LancerStaff]

Old-school, rock-hard, 2D Kid Icarus platformer.

Classic gameplay, new design.

That'd be fun.

I'd play it.

I'd like something a little more modern and speedy, something like this:

Heh, I know Xacer sure would like it.

 

[Tito Maas]

He zones better with a zair and a faster PK Fire of which the mid-air recoil can make totally safe. He counters other zoners better with a faster reflector and a more powerful magnet. He recovers better purely due to access to a tether and the insane distance his PK Thunder 2 can travel.

It's not a matter of Lucas not being able to do anything Ness does better, but that the things Ness DOES do better happen to work better in the context of Smash 4 and with more ease.

Really the whole "why play Lucas when Ness is better" mentality is just toxic and prevents people from seeing Lucas for his own merits.

He has a ZAir, that's a plus over Ness. His PK Fire... is it a plus over Ness? I wouldn't really say so. In Brawl maybe, but Ness's PK Fire sets up for a lot of combos that Lucas could use. PK Fire to grab, anyone? That's something Lucas desperately needs. The spacing on the PK Fire is a plus... but overall, it doesn't quite benefit Lucas in a way that you would like it to. His only reliably kill moves are BAir and UThrow. All of his smashes are slow except for FSmash but there's no way to set up into them.

PK Magnet is better than Ness's.

His recovery is a definite plus. But his PK Thunder can't be used on the ground at all due to the high endlag and the fact that it opponents can be knocked out of the PK Thunder and into Lucas for an easy punish (since it's multihit, it doesn't end when it hits the opponent so usually the opponent can escape while Lucas is still in PKT mode. Easy punish when you factor in the endlag on top of that). If you PKT2 on the ground, you'll likely go so far that it kills you because it doesn't stop on shield or contact with anything, really. Also, PKT2 doesn't kill until like 130%. No juggles, no early kills, no ground mindgames. On top of not being able to kill. It's only good for recovery and nothing else. Kinda like his tether grab, the worst in the game.

His Nair is good, but none of them have the kill power or utility of Ness's. Even his UAir, which can kill, seemingly only has more range than Jigglypuff's Rest.

I actually play Lucas. But even I can see that there's no reason to use him over Ness, just like there's no real reason to use Dark Pit over Pit (though I do think Dark Pit is actually better in customs). I just think he's fun to play with and I refuse to use Ness because my rival uses Ness.

Lucas could actually use a lot of the things Ness has, like Ness's PK Fire, and Lucas's PKT2 has all the nerfs in terms of damage and multihit that Ness's has (why wouldn't Lucas's hit harder if it's slower, meaning easier to read, has more endlag, meaning more dangerous to use, and can't be use for juggles?).

Lucas has defensive options with the Magnet, PKT on recovery, and the spacing on PKF, yes... but in what ways do those things improve his game as a character? Ness doesn't do damage on his Magnet but it was buffed to have much less endlag, he can use PKT for juggling, deterring approaches, tacking damage on off-stage, protecting himself from edgeguards, etc, while Lucas is only good for recovery and almost ungimpable (and Ness's PKT2 is already near ungimpable just due to the fact that if your opponent whiffs, they die. Even though Lucas's is harder to penetrate, you won't get punished very badly for trying). And with the new multihit mechanics in this game, Ness's PK Fire is superior to Lucas's when you look at its total utility, and when you look at how much Lucas needs Ness's PK Fire to set up for his terrible tether which can't even grab out of shield. Lucas's PK Fire is great... until you realize you'd rather the opponent be trapped in place and racking up damage so you can set-up your stringer moves instead of blown back.

So yeah, besides killing with PK Magnet sometimes, what exactly does Lucas do better than Ness? Lucas's game revolves around a spacing PK Fire and a grab that just isn't going to grab very often. Ness's game can revolve around any parts of his whole moveset.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

He has a ZAir, that's a plus over Ness. His PK Fire... is it a plus over Ness? I wouldn't really say so. In Brawl maybe, but Ness's PK Fire sets up for a lot of combos that Lucas could use. PK Fire to grab, anyone? That's something Lucas desperately needs. The spacing on the PK Fire is a plus... but overall, it doesn't quite benefit Lucas in a way that you would like it to. His only reliably kill moves are BAir and UThrow. All of his smashes are slow except for FSmash but there's no way to set up into them.

PK Magnet is better than Ness's.

His recovery is a definite plus. But his PK Thunder can't be used on the ground at all due to the high endlag and the fact that it opponents can be knocked out of the PK Thunder and into Lucas for an easy punish (since it's multihit, it doesn't end when it hits the opponent so usually the opponent can escape while Lucas is still in PKT mode. Easy punish when you factor in the endlag on top of that). If you PKT2 on the ground, you'll likely go so far that it kills you because it doesn't stop on shield or contact with anything, really. Also, PKT2 doesn't kill until like 130%. No juggles, no early kills, no ground mindgames. On top of not being able to kill. It's only good for recovery and nothing else. Kinda like his tether grab, the worst in the game.

His Nair is good, but none of them have the kill power or utility of Ness's. Even his UAir, which can kill, seemingly only has more range than Jigglypuff's Rest.

I actually play Lucas. But even I can see that there's no reason to use him over Ness, just like there's no real reason to use Dark Pit over Pit (though I do think Dark Pit is actually better in customs). I just think he's fun to play with and I refuse to use Ness because my rival uses Ness.

Lucas could actually use a lot of the things Ness has, like Ness's PK Fire, and Lucas's PKT2 has all the nerfs in terms of damage and multihit that Ness's has (why wouldn't Lucas's hit harder if it's slower, meaning easier to read, has more endlag, meaning more dangerous to use, and can't be use for juggles?).

Lucas has defensive options with the Magnet, PKT on recovery, and the spacing on PKF, yes... but in what ways do those things improve his game as a character? Ness doesn't do damage on his Magnet but it was buffed to have much less endlag, he can use PKT for juggling, deterring approaches, tacking damage on off-stage, protecting himself from edgeguards, etc, while Lucas is only good for recovery and almost ungimpable (and Ness's PKT2 is already near ungimpable just due to the fact that if your opponent whiffs, they die. Even though Lucas's is harder to penetrate, you won't get punished very badly for trying). And with the new multihit mechanics in this game, Ness's PK Fire is superior to Lucas's when you look at its total utility, and when you look at how much Lucas needs Ness's PK Fire to set up for his terrible tether which can't even grab out of shield. Lucas's PK Fire is great... until you realize you'd rather the opponent be trapped in place and racking up damage so you can set-up your stringer moves instead of blown back.

So yeah, besides killing with PK Magnet sometimes, what exactly does Lucas do better than Ness? Lucas's game revolves around a spacing PK Fire and a grab that just isn't going to grab very often. Ness's game can revolve around any parts of his whole moveset.

I hate PK Fire. All people do nowadays is spam it until they can get you at a grab kill percentage.

 

[Koiba]

I hate PK Fire. All people do nowadays is spam it until they can get you at a grab kill percentage.

You can power shield it while approaching and you can go for a punish

And if your caught in it you can DI away from it

Unless you in a super laggy match

 

[Tito Maas]

I hate PK Fire. All people do nowadays is spam it until they can get you at a grab kill percentage.

If you're talking about Lucas, that's most of what you really can do. He's definitely a hit and run character. Doesn't have very much range at all on any of his attacks besides his Smash attacks, which are slow and unsafe.

Lucas's game revolves around the use of PK Fire. His jab is one of the best in the game though.

Lucas's meta has gotten worse as people have started to realize there's no reason to fear the PKT and his grab game.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

If you're talking about Lucas, that's most of what you really can do. He's definitely a hit and run character. Doesn't have very much range at all on any of his attacks besides his Smash attacks, which are slow and unsafe.

Lucas's game revolves around the use of PK Fire. His jab is one of the best in the game though.

Lucas's meta has gotten worse as people have started to realize there's no reason to fear the PKT and his grab game.

I mean Ness when he does pk fire. Lucas doesn't spam it alot and the fire continues to go. You get lit up once and that's it.

You can power shield it while approaching and you can go for a punish

And if your caught in it you can DI away from it

Unless you in a super laggy match

Laggy matches or team battles are when it happens for me. I also hate how people are being teir whores and copying other people instead of either sticking with their original main, create their own commbos, or playing a character that actually intrest them.