Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[redgreenblue]

It's generally more constructive to prove me wrong instead of just being a ****.

I'm sorry . It just made me laugh.

Have you ever played an actual brawl falco? I mean one that puts up a challenge? If you're questioning phantasm's usability on-stage in relation to farore's wind, you obviously haven't. Phantasm's disjointed hitbox and high speed makes it incredibly hard to punish. SH phantasms send the character into the air a considerable distance, and from there you can either SH phantasm them to spike them back into the ground to repeat, or start juggling the character. What can you do with farore's wind on the ground? Just for running away quickly, yes? I don't see how that's useful, especially since you can cover the same distance in the same or less time with two SH phantasms. Since melee, phantasm's start up time has dropped dramatically, the damage and knockback done has increased dramatically, and it goes a hell of a lot further. Phantasm went from melee turtle to brawl turtle, basically.

 

[redgreenblue]

Floaty makes things more punishable imo. The faster you fall the faster you hit the safety of the ground and gain even more methods to dodge attacks. While falling faster does make your ability to recover harder, it makes punishing your recovery harder too.

Second the Phantasm covers enough ground, in spite of being predictable that its difficult to punish on the ground, plus it has a huge hitbox, so its actually a viable option to do damage to your opponent. Startup on it is also faster than Fayore's Wind.

I highly doubt that it requires all of their recovery moves to be hard to punish. The statement could potentially apply to more than one move, but it definitely doesnt mean that all of their recovery options have to be hard to punish. Also, Im pretty sure that in context, recovery is singular, and only applies to one recovery move.

No, when they say recovery, they mean the character's recovery metagame. This refers to all methods of recovery. Fire bird makes his recovery suck, however phantasm more than makes up for it. Which is what makes his recovery hard to punish.

 

[Mr Mattastic]

its totally marth

 

[AlexX]

No, when they say recovery, they mean the character's recovery metagame. This refers to all methods of recovery. Fire bird makes his recovery suck, however phantasm more than makes up for it. Which is what makes his recovery hard to punish.

Just because Phantasm is good doesn't mean that Fire Bird doesn't count as part of his recovery, though. It's not his only recovery move, so you can't act like it is.

You're right that he has one great recovery move and one poor one, but if anything that averages his recovery out. As I said, if using the better one 75% of the time mattered, Ike wouldn't be considered to have such poor recovery since Ike players generally try to recover with Aether whenever possible due to being much harder to gimp compared to Quick Draw.

 

[smashbot226]

I'm willing to bet money on Pit...

I mean, come on.

R.O.B. plays pretty darn similar to Pit, wouldn't you say?

 

[MiraiGen]

I'm sorry . It just made me laugh.

Have you ever played an actual brawl falco? I mean one that puts up a challenge? If you're questioning phantasm's usability on-stage in relation to farore's wind, you obviously haven't. Phantasm's disjointed hitbox and high speed makes it incredibly hard to punish. SH phantasms send the character into the air a considerable distance, and from there you can either SH phantasm them to spike them back into the ground to repeat, or start juggling the character. What can you do with farore's wind on the ground? Just for running away quickly, yes? I don't see how that's useful, especially since you can cover the same distance in the same or less time with two SH phantasms. Since melee, phantasm's start up time has dropped dramatically, the damage and knockback done has increased dramatically, and it goes a hell of a lot further. Phantasm went from melee turtle to brawl turtle, basically.

Okay, I'll accept that. I really haven't fought much Falco except the computers. I'm a bit too used to Melee Falco whom I fought all the time and it really wasn't worth it then.

Also

No, when they say recovery, they mean the character's recovery metagame. This refers to all methods of recovery.

Gah christ, thank you! Been trying to say that for a while now.

Just because Phantasm is good doesn't mean that Fire Bird doesn't count as part of his recovery, though. It's not his only recovery move, so you can't act like it is.

That's not the point. Read above.

You can't deny the fact that he has another recovery move that's worse, is the point.

However I'm willing to lean a bit away from Zelda, though I think she's still possible I'm leaning more towards Falco or Pikachu, just because of Quick Attack's hitframes.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

its totally marth

Marth has no projectiles. I'd say Pikachu.

 

[Zindura]

The hint reeks of Lucas.

Great projectile, excellent close-range fighting ability, intimidating and diverse recovery...

 

[Daichi]

Toon Link, Pit, or Dedede would be my guess.

 

[Icy_Eagle]

Toon Link, Pit, or Dedede would be my guess.

not marth?

I think it's either pikachu or zelda. Recovery usable on ground sounds like QAC, while low tournament placings just scream Zelda to me

 

[Oh Snap]

^^to elaborate, she has 16 possiblities, but how many are viable?

depending on placement on the stage, one of the sides may not be a viable direction. Going up will be punished, no matter in what direction, and going down/towards the opponent can be punished if he simply waits.

SO um, yeah, great in theory, but not when actually playing

Depends on the stage, really. Like FD, she only has about 3 places to teleport safely, but places where there are a lot of platforms or on large stages, Zelda has a lot of places to teleport too. Zelda players usually don't do this often, though. It's not a useful tatic

Also, just yesterday, I punished Fox's phantasm with Zelda's Dair. I'll admit it's really difficult to punish phantasm. Well, I wasn't even trying to punish that Fox. I forgot how I was above him, but when I came down with the Dair, it hit Fox while he was using phantasm.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Falco has been updated. Now that Overswarm is in Ireland trying to catch leprechauns, LeeHarris is helping out by doing the synopsis and making the next thread. Speaking of the next thread, I put the hint for next week up too. I tried to avoid being too obvious, because this character is quite easy to spoil IMO. And I was quite tired when I wrote it, so hopefully I wont have to come back to redo the hint later.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I say Pit.
Has spammable B moves.
Great recovery but it can be gimped (You fall a bit before you start flying)


Edit: 1ST GUESS MWHAAHAHAHAHAH!

 

[JCaesar]

Next one's Pit. Great aerial game, arrow spam on the ground, and a long distance up-B which is easily gimped.

Edit: dang, just missed first guess.

 

[Oh Snap]

Dang! I really hoped it would be Zelda.

Next one is Pit.

 

[DarkRenji]

Ok ok, now I will be right...
I say Pit... -.-

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Changed the hint a bit.

 

[Grunt]

Ness i think

 

[Ayaz18]

most likely pit

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Pit... at least... only logical option to me

 

[gameboii]

i say ZSS?

 

[Dream Land Works]

I am going to have to say Jigglypuff. She still has the Wall of Pain abilities, but nothing great when it comes to fighting on the ground. Her recovery can be gimped with good edgeguarding because of it only being Pound and Mid Air Jumps. The spam B move I would guess is Rollout.

 

[SuPa050]

i call ness on the gimped recovery and insane aerial game

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ness doesn't have an insane aerial game.
Nor does he have a bad ground game.
his ground game is much better than his aerial game IMO.
Nor does he rely on spamming a B move while on the ground.
Nor doe she have an excelleny recovery.

It's probably Pit.
Wolf has a good ground game but a somewhat decent aerial game.
has a poor recovery.

Pit has a poor ground game but very spammable B move.
Excellent aerial game.
Has an excellent recovery
Gimpable recovery.


With the kill at low eprcents Iw as thinking either MK or Sonic since both are known for killing their opponents off the stage via aerial manuevers.
MK was discussed already
Sonic has a good aerial game.
A somewhat poor ground game.
no spammable moves.


by process of elimination it has to be Pit.
****IT I WILL NOT BE DENIED OF HAVING THE FIRST CORRECT ANSWER!

 

[JCaesar]

Changing my answer to Ganondorf. Pit can't get low % kills with his aerials. Ganon needs to spam over-B on the ground. Not exactly sure how Ganon's recovery can be "great sometimes" but overall he fits better than Pit.

I wanted to say Ike also, but his jab combo is too good.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Except that ganandorf's aerial game is looked upon as being below par.

Nor does he simply spam Over B. He also uses his down B.

I am still going to say pit since I have managed to get low percent kills with him via gimping.
His recovery is great but gimpable.

I was thinking Sonic since sonic can spam his spindash and spin charge for approaching.

Hmm
Pit or Sonic.
'
Which would it be?

 

[JCaesar]

Except that ganandorf's aerial game is looked upon as being below par.

You need to watch some vids of G-Reg autocancelling dairs.

"this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent" = not Pit, as much as I wanted to say him. Not to mention his ground game isn't that bad. Ganon's is worse.

Sonic is a good answer too. The "low percent" kills could be up-B -> uair off the top. And obviously down-B on the ground.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yes but Ganandorf's doesn't devolve into spammage of a B move. The over B is used to approach and then attack, it can't be spammed as a part of the ground game. not to mention he also has his Down B for chasing.

I was thinking about the G-reg videos with the autocancelled but it would mean that Ganandorf's game revolves around his aerial ability, which clearl yisn't the case. he jsut moves too slowly aerially both attack and speedwise. It woulda lso mean he is a very capable edge guarder. He can kill with his aerials at low percentages but it isn't going to happen often since the same can be applied to Ike's aerial moves.

Sonic can also gimp with his spring and he can do the following for an easy kill.
Dthrow off the stage Fair~>Fair kills nearly every character.

Dair also semispikes.
Nair is also good for edge guarding as well.

Sonic is also very aerial and often has to use his spindashes to approach but the inability to actually spam them makes it difficult which is why i am hesitant to go with Sonic.
I'll probably be wrong either way.

 

[Adapt]

"Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options other than to use one of their B attacks often. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily."

First Impression: ZSS. Her b-air and f-air are my number 1 and 2 kill moves. On the ground though there aren't as many options and f-B is a common ground move for sure. I think she is also underestimated (and underplayed), and her recovery is possible to be gimped, but you have to be smart about it because there are several options that she can use to get back.

What did the old hint look like anyone? It would prolly help.

Sonic is also a clear contender. Maybe jiggs. I doubt its ganon or ike because their ground games are both pretty strong

Pit imo isn't underestimated, most ppl fear him a lot

 

[sagemoon]

its not pit, he doesnt lack a ground game and only noobs resort to spamming b. Not to mention pit has trouble killing unless he can land a sweetspotted bair. Either that or the hint was just worded wrongly. Not to mention EVERY hint someone has said pit. It seems like they're doing that on purpose lol. plus pit is in no way underestimated by the majority of the community

Wario seems to fit for me. He has a good aerial game, but then again im not sure his ground game is weak either. The bike fits for a b move. His recovery is way good w/ the bike, but a smart player can jump out and hit him off the bike, thus gimping it. And wario is underestimated

 

[ShadowLink84]

The thing is that it is morelikely to be pit because he can spam his arrows.
He can do so at far and mid range.
ZSS and Sonic cannot spam their B moves as easily nor are their recoveries gimped without the user making a large error on their part.

 

[Tien2500]

My immediate thought was Wario. Wario's air game is great and I've gimp killed quite a few people at low percentages with him. But Wario has absolutely norhing going for him on the ground. Overall he is the slowest ground character. His jab is the only attack that comes out with any speed and even that is slow for a jab. Wario's only option on the ground is his bike. Wario can be knocked off his bike midair. And to top things off Wario is underestimated which Pit and ZSS aren't.

On the subject of ZSS I wouldn't call her air game amazing. Her air game is solid but not exceptional. Maybe if she had a lower short hop and could actually approach by air things would be different.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

I belive this may actually mean olimar. His aerials are very powerful. His recorvey, which is normally ok, is insanely easy to gimp, like the hint says. Olimar is greatly underestimated because of the recovery. And every olimar I know loves to spam those pikmin, as the ground game isnt the best otherwise. I am actually surprised I am the first olimar person (this round), even though everyone before who said it wasn't olimar stated the fact the horrible recovery isn't mentioned, and here it is mentioned.

And when it comes to ZSS, here air game doesn't kill at low percents, tehy generally require above 100, unless you can get a uair off at a high level.

 

[hoopspr226]

I think Bowser fits the bill pretty well.

On the ground Bowsers must spam up b and he also has a surprisingly deadly aerial game that can take ppl out at early percentages (side b anyone?)

 

[Finch]

I thought bowser too but his recovery is not easily gimped. It's definitely ganondorf.

 

[harpuia190]

jigglypuff no foolin

 

[Renufus]

I can't think of a reason why the SBR would waste their time talking about G-dorf. Everyone already knows he's terrible. Besides, his recovery is NEVER "fine sometimes." It's always crappy.

This is a tricky one. Think I'll have to go with Pit though, especially since they only seem to be discussing high/top tiered characters (despite the disclaimer that they're in no order - but come on, there's an obvious pattern here).

 

[ph00tbag]

It's not ZSS. He ground game isn't really about Plasma Whip as much as it is about dsmash and tilts. If it is ZSS, this will be the second time that I've actually responded to a horribly misleading hint, and I'll just stop paying attention. -.-

I want to say Wario, but his recovery is actually pretty **** good, IMO. Maybe a smart opponent could gimp him. Actually, I believe I've seen it happen.

 

[Blad01]

What could be possible :

-> Bowser. The recovery part makes me doubt.

-> Donkey Kong : Many spikes that could kill at low percents. Undersetimated. On the ground, ican't see any useful moves... There are his tilts, though. But a lot of DK users seem to use B, Down B and side B. This last one is done with a SH though... Hum, no it's not DK.

-> Fox. (Hum... :s)

-> Ganondorf. He has a solid ground game, so...

-> DDD ?

-> Lucario. Great but slow smashes, but good tilts...

-> Olimar.

-> Sonic.

-> Wario

-> Yoshi.

 

[Kitamerby]

I can't think of a reason why the SBR would waste their time talking about G-dorf. Everyone already knows he's terrible. Besides, his recovery is NEVER "fine sometimes." It's always crappy.

...You've never played a good Ganondorf, I'm guessing.

Anyways, it's WARIO.


Wario's completely underestimated by anyone who hasn't faced a good one, and I won't say much, but the first time I fought a good Wario, thinking that I would win easily... It wasn't pretty. The Bike is completely abusable against pretty much everyone, and makes for a great recovery, but the problem with that is that you can EASILY knock him out of it in the air, and chances are he won't be able to use the Bike again until it's too late. His tilts are quick somewhat and very powerful, but they have such short range he rarely can use them unless he combos and are pretty much unusable if your opponent spaces right. Meanwhile, his air game is completely deadly, as everyone knows due to him apparently storing hydrogen up his ***.