Smash Balls = New Play Style, Second Tourney Ruling?

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Yes. Big bold text symbolizing yelling in an action that I'm suppose to be a 5 year old idiot sure is inviting to become a member of YOUR society. And I love your imagery of grouping me into the 'casuals' circle and saying I'm quite fine for being in such a circle. While constantly referring to yourself as not only a member of the tournament circuit, but seemingly that it also is a closed stagnant community that is superior to all others. Also that somehow is 'yours' as if you are a partial owner of it by right of being so protective of it.

No, if anything, all you did was re-affirm that I already said my fill over the last 2 pages and all you did was read my first post.

Smashbros has always been a tournament worthy game, and its blatantly obvious when you look at the game mechanics that Sakurai implemented. LVL 9 CPU's use some crazy advanced techniques, and a lot of intended techniques were also added that give the game depth. Smash DI, Ledgeteching, Powershielding, Lightshielding, Meteor Canceling, Crouch Canceling, Jump Canceling, Double Jump Canceling, L-Canceling, Trajectory DI, Chaingrabbing, Short-hopping, Dash Dancing, Tech Chasing, Wakeup games, and other techniques that took technical skill and were intended for mindgames...

Sorry, but its annoying for people to say Smash was never tournament worthy and that we are trying to "turn it into Street Fighter." Deep down Sakurai did want it to be a competitive fighter with technical depth. Even when the game began, back when 2D Fighters were all the rage, it was planned to be a more practical fighter(Look up the Iwata Asks Interview). If anything, Sakurai never intended for it to be the crazy popular, casual, free-for-all, Nintendo-fest it is now.

Level 9 computers sure did advanced techniques. They also did them perfectly, in ways humans could never duplicate. But a lot of those things you said the computer could do, it would do them either better than a human could do or worse than a human could do. And always in a set pattern.

And no good player would ever tell you that he got good off of playing Level 9 computers. Just like no one would ever tell you they got good or practiced off of computers to play competitively for any fighter. I see no correlation with what Level 9 computers have to do with Smash Bros Melee in the end not being able to stand up to being a competitive fighter, due to the fact that people havehad to negate almost all the levels, basically 20 of the characters and wavedashing/l-canceling was found turning matches into something that makes me think that I'm watching a production of "You Got Served" rather than a fighting game.

And there’s no other logic that can be put to the game except to say you are trying to make it like other fighters when you take off items, only allow other flat stages, set tiers, set up tournaments, and etc. Let’s see…you’re trying to make Smash Bros JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FIGHTER EVER! Limit the variables of luck, memorize all the moves and reduce the game to mindgames and button twitching. Street Fighter, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive in a NUTSHELL!

I'm not trying to say this is the worst thing ever and I'm trying to take it away from you. But at the same time, you can't start denying that's what it is. And at the same time, I'm hoping THIS time that it won't cause a set of characters (fox/falco/sheik/marth) to be what ALL of the people want to play.

 

[MookieRah]

but seemingly that it also is a closed stagnant community that is superior to all others.

Haha. No. The tournament community isn't closed or stagnant by any means.

Let’s see…you’re trying to make Smash Bros JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FIGHTER EVER!

Nope, we are trying to make it competitively viable. Items are random and thusly they take away from skill. Also... we don't play on just flat stages. We have roughly half the stages playable in tournaments, and they range from the flattest of flat FD to moving stages such as Rainbow Cruise and Poke floats.

Limit the variables of luck, memorize all the moves and reduce the game to mindgames and button twitching.

You don't even know what you are talking about. You don't realize that within the confines of our rules for Melee there is so much depth and variety. Most of which you apparently don't realize we have. Hell mangz, I was a tournament Mewtwo player! He's ranked as the worst character in the game! I still did well in tournaments despite that.

Please don't act like you know something when all you have to go by is BS stereotypes you read about on 4chan.

 

[Libomasus]

Level 9 computers sure did advanced techniques. They also did them perfectly, in ways humans could never duplicate. But a lot of those things you said the computer could do, it would do them either better than a human could do or worse than a human could do. And always in a set pattern.

And no good player would ever tell you that he got good off of playing Level 9 computers. Just like no one would ever tell you they got good or practiced off of computers to play competitively for any fighter. I see no correlation with how Level 9 computers have to do with Smash Bros Melee in the end not being able to stand up to being a competitive fighter, due to the fact that people havehad to negate almost all the levels, basically 20 of the characters and wavedashing/l-canceling was found turning matches into something that makes me think that I'm watching a production of "You Got Served" rather than a fighting game.

And there’s no other logic that can be put to the game except to say you are trying to make it like other fighters when you take off items, only allow other flat stages, set tiers, set up tournaments, and etc. Let’s see…you’re trying to make Smash Bros JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FIGHTER EVER! Limit the variables of luck, memorize all the moves and reduce the game to mindgames and button twitching. Street Fighter, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive in a NUTSHELL!

I'm not trying to say this is the worst thing ever and I'm trying to take it away from you. But at the same time, you can't start denying that's what it is. And at the same time, I'm hoping THIS time that it won't cause a set of characters (fox/falco/sheik/marth) to be what ALL of the people want to play.

The reason I mentioned LVL 9 comps was to prove that all those techniques were intended, that Sakurai intended to reward you for good timing and mindgames. We aren't "reducing" it to anything, we are merely focusing it. Also, refer to everyone elses posts about how there are much more stages and characters used in tourneys than you think.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Level 9 computers sure did advanced techniques. They also did them perfectly, in ways humans could never duplicate.

You obviously have not seen M2K, Silent Wolf, or any other technical player play. Everything they do is possible for a human to duplicate.

But a lot of those things you said the computer could do, it would do them either better than a human could do or worse than a human could do. And always in a set pattern.

Like what? Powershielding? Everything else they can do has easily been duplicated and is already part of the metagame. L-canceling, ledgeteching, SDI, everything they can do already has been duplicated and then some.

And no good player would ever tell you that he got good off of playing Level 9 computers. Just like no one would ever tell you they got good or practiced off of computers to play competitively for any fighter. I see no correlation with how Level 9 computers have to do with Smash Bros Melee in the end not being able to stand up to being a competitive fighter

The computers simply show you what is technically possible, just as how the perfect control videos show the upper limits of tech skill.

due to the fact that people havehad to negate almost all the levels

They've banned characters in other fighters, something we've never had to do. Not to mention that melee was only the second installment in the series, You should also not that there are 6 neutrals, and 7 counterpick stages available, for a total of 13 stages. These 13 stages differ in sizes and shapes far more than any competative fighter I've seen.

basically 20 of the characters

What! Smash has no banned characters at all!

and wavedashing/l-canceling was found turning matches into something that makes me think that I'm watching a production of "You Got Served" rather than a fighting game.

So I guess Guilty Gear should not be considered a competative fighter. I guess Roman canceling makes it a production of "You Got Served" too. I guess fast games just can't be played competatively huh.

And there’s no other logic that can be put to the game except to say you are trying to make it like other fighters when you take off items, only allow other flat stages

Or we are using the options given to us in the game to play it the way we want, which would be without items and on fair stages. I guess that just so happens to be like other competative fighters huh. And have you even seen the allowed stages in tournaments! We let people play on Pokefloats! Name one fighter with a more unique stage than Rainbow Cruise!

set up tournaments

You mean like every single competative game! Heck, even casual games have tournaments.

set up tiers

Tiers are mearly a reflection of those tournament results. They just show who's winning more, not who's better.

Let’s see…you’re trying to make Smash Bros JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FIGHTER EVER!

Or we are playing smash bros exactly how it was intended. Do you know how it was intended to be played. It was intended to be played any way we ****ing want

Limit the variables of luck, memorize all the moves and reduce the game to mindgames and button twitching. Street Fighter, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive in a NUTSHELL!

EXACTLY. Smash is both a fighting game and a party game. What part of that can't you comprehend. Is it madness to think that a game can be enjoyed in more than one way!?

I'm not trying to say this is the worst thing ever and I'm trying to take it away from you.

So insulting our way of play is not supposed to offend us?

But at the same time, you can't start denying that's what it is.

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO TELL ME WHAT THIS GAME IS. MLG has already recognized smash as a fighting game. Evo has already recognized smash as a fighting game. Pretty soon the whole world will recognize that smash is more than just a party game.

And at the same time, I'm hoping THIS time that it won't cause a set of characters (fox/falco/sheik/marth) to be what ALL of the people want to play.

Other fighting games have tiers. Even in other games people often choose who to play because of the tier list. In games that are better balanced you see more variety, but this concept still holds true. The character higher on the tier list are the ones that have placed better, and thus people will flock to them. That is a result of the competative mindset, play to win, and has nothing to do with the type of game it is.

 

[NES n00b]

And no good player would ever tell you that he got good off of playing Level 9 computers. Just like no one would ever tell you they got good or practiced off of computers to play competitively for any fighter. I see no correlation with what Level 9 computers have to do with Smash Bros Melee in the end not being able to stand up to being a competitive fighter, due to the fact that people havehad to negate almost all the levels, basically 20 of the characters and wavedashing/l-canceling was found turning matches into something that makes me think that I'm watching a production of "You Got Served" rather than a fighting game.

It is revelant since you said "The game was not to appeal to tourney standards due to 90% variables of smash had to be taken out" then he responded by saying that alot of what computers do are not only intended, but deep mechanics of Melee that would have made Melee deep on its own. Of course, you ignore the reason for the example, but also try to argue for items in a TOURNEY (<---- see this) then say there wasn't meant to be tournies. Wouldn't it be fair to say if it wasn't meant to be tournies (assuming since I am pretty sure he put opions like the off switch for things like this), then it wouldn't be more of a stretch to say you can use the options (that was implied shouldn't be used either which is a rediculous notion lol) to make it more tourney viable for said tournies.

And lol, you got served. WTF? I think lower play looks like people waving sticks everywhere; therefore, it shouldn't be done cause I am using subjective ****!!!1!1!1!!!1 Don't ever put opion based stuff in a logical debate. -.- L cancelling was intended so. . . . I don't even know why you implied that tourney people made that technique so everything would look like "You got served."

And there’s no other logic that can be put to the game except to say you are trying to make it like other fighters when you take off items, only allow other flat stages, set tiers, set up tournaments, and etc. Let’s see…you’re trying to make Smash Bros JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FIGHTER EVER! Limit the variables of luck, memorize all the moves and reduce the game to mindgames and button twitching. Street Fighter, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive in a NUTSHELL!

First of all, Dead or Alive is a terrible fighting game series especially for tourney scenes.

Second, even if we were trying to make Smash like those gams, why would we do this and not just play those games? Please think about it for a second (hint hint, makes it more skill based with more consitent results)

Third, we aren't trying to make it more like Street fighter or whatever since we would be playing those games instead. See how this doesn't make sense? It would be like if I told Halo people that play SWAT (or how ever it is spelled) that they are trying to make it like Counter Strike since the developer obviously made sheilds part of the game.

4th, you make like something being reduced to "mindgames" (and button twitching yeah I know) bad. . . . . . . do you even know what that is? (PS, that "Button twitching" gives more options to mindgame effectively with)

I'm not trying to say this is the worst thing ever and I'm trying to take it away from you. But at the same time, you can't start denying that's what it is. And at the same time, I'm hoping THIS time that it won't cause a set of characters (fox/falco/sheik/marth) to be what ALL of the people want to play.

Are you saying that somehow items would make the game balanced? That is stupid notion. Since when did random things appearing = more balance?

If you are asking to ban equivalent characters to these, then the next best set of characters would take over. These things can't be helped. Therefore, this is also a stupid notion.

 

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Please don't act like you know something when all you have to go by is BS stereotypes you read about on 4chan.

After you stop quoting me out of context, putting words in my mouth and using '4chan' type stereotyping of your own.

The reason I mentioned LVL 9 comps was to prove that all those techniques were intended, that Sakurai intended to reward you for good timing and mindgames. We aren't "reducing" it to anything, we are merely focusing it. Also, refer to everyone elses posts about how there are much more stages and characters used in tourneys than you think.

Yes, I know the stages you guys pick. Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Pokemon Stadium, etc. And I know that you can decide to play other levels as well as long as other people decide to. As I've said in my other posts, that makes little difference when you actually go to the places I go to and then all people want to do is play Final Destination all the time. Because "That's all the good people play." And if anyone picks anything different, they literally throw a fit, getting red with anger. And you won't even pick a stage off the list.

And so don't go off and start trying to correct me, I KNOW its not that way. I'm just saying, there's what YOU guys do, and there's what happens when I try to play people at LAN Center, Smash Bros get together, small tournaments, etc. Do you see why there's a less than positive connotation for joining the tournament scene in some areas? Because Fox/Falco/Sheik on one level is not fun. Even when you beat them (yes, I do with Marth AND Link from time to time).

 

[MookieRah]

After you stop quoting me out of context, putting words in my mouth and using '4chan' type stereotyping of your own.

Misquoting you? Well I'm sorry for "misquoting", I guess everything you said must have been a misquote. In context of what you said you only were speaking out of tournament stereotypes for smash. You obviously haven't been a part of the community for very long and/or completely uneducated about what the competitive community is actually like.

When you talk as if you know what you are talking about but end up regurgitating stereotypes you shouldn't expect to be treated with any sort of respect. Learn about what you are discussing before throwing your two cents in.

 

[PXG]

Sonic Wave said it perfectly. The game is designed to be played any way or style you want. Why casual players care so much that we take off items and ban stages is beyond me. We've stated our case as if we beat a stable full of dead horses. We cannot stress or say it anymore. You know our rules, and you know our reasons and justifications. We are not going to change and that is how its going to be. We play for skill, money and pride. And with that, DOES come fun.

We get a thrill from seeing two skilled players duking it out. If you don't find competitive Smash as interesting as we do, fine. That's how you feel. We do not intend on changing how you view Super Smash Bros. or how you play the game. We encourage you to establish tournaments for those who wish to use items. However, we will not take part in it, because of our style and way of playing the game (not intending our way is right and your way is wrong. Our way of playing the game is what makes it fun for us. Its just the way we like it. That is all.

 

[NES n00b]

EVEN BIGGER LOL, so you are saying that since people play Final D and only play three characters at YOUR LOCAL LAN CENTER, that we have to change our rules?

Well since I know these casual players that only play Icicle Mountain, all items on very high, and random characters only. They get mad whenever I want to do something different. So I am going to. . . . . . wait, it is just easier to call you stupid.

 

[Jack Kieser]

*yawn* Hoo, boy... I wake up from a nap, and my eyes are assaulted by walls of text and multiquotes... not what nearsighted eyes call 'pleasent' by any means...

 

[Dark Sonic]

And so don't go off and start trying to correct me, I KNOW its not that way. I'm just saying, there's what YOU guys do, and there's what happens when I try to play people at LAN Center, Smash Bros get together, small tournaments, etc. Do you see why there's a less than positive connotation for joining the tournament scene in some areas? Because Fox/Falco/Sheik on one level is not fun. Even when you beat them (yes, I do with Marth AND Link from time to time).

So you admit that the majority of us aren't like that, and then proceed to group us with them anyway? Most of us aren't like that. You should also show your friends the tournament legal list if they are so bent on playing "tournament" stages. They'd be suprized to find out that we actually play on crazy levels more than they do. All the casuals at my school just stick to Hyrule Temple, Corneria, Dream Land, FD (for their "fair" stage), and Kongo Jungle 64. Not exactly the craziest stages.

And by LAN center, do you happen to mean Gigabits LAN center? (just curious, because I happen to live in Central Florida, and that's where we hold our local tournaments).

 

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

. . . . . . wait, it is just easier to call you stupid.

For someone who just told me to keep 'opinionated statements out of discussions' and then follwed up with 'Dead or Alive is a Crappy fighter' two sentances later, I think you should slow down.

So you admit that the majority of us aren't like that, and then proceed to group us with them anyway? Most of us aren't like that. You should also show your friends the tournament legal list if they are so bent on playing "tournament" stages. They'd be suprized to find out that we actually play on crazy levels more than they do. All the casuals at my school just stick to Hyrule Temple, Corneria, Dream Land, FD (for their "fair" stage), and Kongo Jungle 64. Not exactly the craziest stages.

And by LAN center, do you happen to mean Gigabits LAN center? (just curious, because I happen to live in Central Florida, and that's where we hold our local tournaments).

I didn't mean to lump you in with them, sorry. However, you guys also seem to think I'm one of those who is all gun ho 100% ITEMS! and because of a back and forth I had with Yuna that I'm on a character banning spree. I'm not. I'm for two things. Anyway that could make the game so most of the features, at least the characters, could be playable in tournaments. Or just that Brawl will have such a large appeal that THIS time the Tournament scene won't affect the 'casual' scene where everyone wants to play a select few characters and nothing else (even when they're playing outside of tournament play and just for fun).

I gave up on the Melee scene a while ago, partially because in the area I live, it seems everyone is a PC or 360 fan. The only people I found who play it are the people I describe. One of the many reasons I'm trying to move away from where I live. And yeah, nowhere near Florida.

With Brawl, I've been actually trying to get all my own friends into the game, to no avail. Losing the battle to WoW and general laziness. Before I can even think about joining anything competitively again or even getting good at Brawl when it comes out, I need to figure out where all the people are around my area.

 

[NES n00b]

For someone who just told me to keep 'opinionated statements out of discussions' and then follwed up with 'Dead or Alive is a Crappy fighter' two sentances later, I think you should slow down.

Only part of it was, it has been proven to be a really bad tourney game with random winners, not alot of options, not much depth, etc. It is just terrible.

You only want to change an entire international community so your small group of friends will still be *******s. Seriously, just stop.

 

[Raistlin]

Yes. Big bold text symbolizing yelling in an action that I'm suppose to be a 5 year old idiot sure is inviting to become a member of YOUR society. And I love your imagery of grouping me into the 'casuals' circle and saying I'm quite fine for being in such a circle. While constantly referring to yourself as not only a member of the tournament circuit, but seemingly that it also is a closed stagnant community that is superior to all others. Also that somehow is 'yours' as if you are a partial owner of it by right of being so protective of it.

No, if anything, all you did was re-affirm that I already said my fill over the last 2 pages and all you did was read my first post.



Level 9 computers sure did advanced techniques. They also did them perfectly, in ways humans could never duplicate. But a lot of those things you said the computer could do, it would do them either better than a human could do or worse than a human could do. And always in a set pattern.

And no good player would ever tell you that he got good off of playing Level 9 computers. Just like no one would ever tell you they got good or practiced off of computers to play competitively for any fighter. I see no correlation with what Level 9 computers have to do with Smash Bros Melee in the end not being able to stand up to being a competitive fighter, due to the fact that people havehad to negate almost all the levels, basically 20 of the characters and wavedashing/l-canceling was found turning matches into something that makes me think that I'm watching a production of "You Got Served" rather than a fighting game.

And there’s no other logic that can be put to the game except to say you are trying to make it like other fighters when you take off items, only allow other flat stages, set tiers, set up tournaments, and etc. Let’s see…you’re trying to make Smash Bros JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FIGHTER EVER! Limit the variables of luck, memorize all the moves and reduce the game to mindgames and button twitching. Street Fighter, Tekken, Soul Calibur, Dead or Alive in a NUTSHELL!

I'm not trying to say this is the worst thing ever and I'm trying to take it away from you. But at the same time, you can't start denying that's what it is. And at the same time, I'm hoping THIS time that it won't cause a set of characters (fox/falco/sheik/marth) to be what ALL of the people want to play.

You may have been playing this game for a long time, but it's pretty clear you have no idea of the depth and complexity it reaches. That's actually kind of sad.

 

[Dark Sonic]

along with that I'm one of those that think the game should have 100% ALL ITEMS ON! and that because Yuna and I had that back and forth, now I'm on this banning character kick.

I never assumed you wanted to ban characters. You said

due to the fact that people havehad to negate almost all the levels

and

basically 20 of the characters

I just stated that these things were unfounded and false.

I used the example that other fighters have banned characters to show that what we've done is not to far from the ordinary.

You condemed us for using game options to shape the game how we saw fit, which is much more closeminded than anything we have done to you.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok... I need to interject here, because there is a lot of pointless bickering and flaming going on in this thread, and some things need to be straightened out.

First of all, from the looks of things, items/Final Smash tournaments may very well be happening. I know it's still way too early to call anything either way, but I, at very least, am pretty invested in exploring these possibilities, and people have voiced their support for the project so far; to those people, I sincerely thank you, as I'm sure more people will in the future. Is is undoubtable that the success of this project hinges on the support it receives from the community.

No one is talking about replacing anything here. There is an established tournament scene. This is a fact, and if you want to argue its legitimacy, procedures, or anything else, this is not the thread to do it in. What we're talking about is an entirely new, supplementary tournament format. In all realism, this format will most likely be held at events that are separate from events that sponsor current tournament playstyles; regardless of what people think about playstyles, from what I've heard, many events simply don't have enough people or resources to hold both styles of tournament at the same time.

There are events, though, that have hundreds of people in attendance, and those events hold the possibility of sponsoring both tournament styles. In that case, people who normally only play the items/FS way may feel the urge to play a tournament style without items for a change, and people who normally only play the in the current style will be able to play competitive games in a format that they might only get to play once in a while, if at all, in a tournament setting. This is, ultimately, what the point is: many people, all who love Smash, playing different ways and coming together.

I know that I'm kind of hi-jacking the thread when I say this (and I'd like to say I'm so sorry to the OP), but I ask that everyone stop the bickering, the fighting, and the flaming. This thread, I feel, should be past that. Like I said, as of right now, I'm the only one who is actively working on finding a valid, cohesive, and establishable set of items/FS-on tournament rules, but a project this big is doomed to failure if only one person is doing everything.

If you currently have a copy of Brawl, I ask that, if you have the time, energy, or will, please experiment with different item/character/stage/stock number/time limit configurations. If you find something that, in practice that YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED playing Brawl (and not Melee), is broken, questionable, exploitable, or even very good, fun, and balanced, please put your findings here for now, or PM me with what you have found. If you are someone who holds tournaments yourself, please experiment with the above possibilities to find what works best in that setting. If you only play casually with some of your friends, let me know what works best for you, what configurations you find enjoyable and workable. If you play competitively, but sometimes also play with items/FS on, what configurations work best for you, as well?

I promise, once Brawl comes out here and I can talk to some mods and/or other established members of the community, I will make a thread (or equivalent) dedicated solely to this project and the discussion of a new tournament format. For now, if you are willing to help, please do your part; if you aren't, I implore you: don't purposefully obstruct and impede the progress of others.

I will reiterate for clarity:

The mission of this project is to discover and establish a second, supplementary tournament playstyle and ruleset that incorporates items and/or Final Smashes in a competitive setting. This is not to replace any current style of play or ruleset.

 

[meko]

Why is it so hard to see that final smashes only make things more unbalanced? It sounds like Jack and the other smash ball advocators are saying that smash balls should be included to allow for more characters to be used in tournaments, but from having played the game, I can tell you that including final smashes in any tournament will only lessen the amount of characters that will be chosen.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Why is it so hard to see that final smashes only make things more unbalanced? It sounds like Jack and the other smash ball advocators are saying that smash balls should be included to allow for more characters to be used in tournaments, but from having played the game, I can tell you that including final smashes in any tournament will only lessen the amount of characters that will be chosen.

It's hard to see because we haven't played the game yet. All I'm asking for is experimentation. I'm not even saying that Final Smashes will make it in the final format. I know that certain items will probably be banned; to think that no items will be banned is naive. Simply put, let's make sure before we pour cement into the mold, because it will be hard to chip away at the sculpture once it's dried.

 

[flyinfilipino]

It's hard to see because we haven't played the game yet. All I'm asking for is experimentation. I'm not even saying that Final Smashes will make it in the final format. I know that certain items will probably be banned; to think that no items will be banned is naive. Simply put, let's make sure before we pour cement into the mold, because it will be hard to chip away at the sculpture once it's dried.

Um, I think a lot of people here have played the game. And I don't think that's the first time that's been brought up.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Okay, enough with the bickering. Jack Kieser has seemed to change his view on smash balls in particular anyway. He simply wants to actually get a few item tournaments organized rather than just talking about them. Is that too much to ask? Maybe instead of giving him all this criticism we can actually help him set this up and see how it goes this time? Brawl has attracted an extremely large casual base, and a few item tournaments might even inspire some of them to try competing. It would certainly make the transition between the two styles smoother. We keep telling people that we won't add items into the competative scene we have now, and yet when someone comes to us for help starting their own tournaments we shut them down? I'd really like to see this go somewhere, and I will try to get some more support for this myself, but we need to get some more influencial people involved in this.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Um, I think a lot of people here have played the game. And I don't think that's the first time that's been brought up.

I'm very sorry; I wasn't clear enough. I meant that I hadn't played Brawl yet, so I can't make a final judgment either way. I reserve judgment on these kinds of things until I experience them for myself.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'm very sorry; I wasn't clear enough. I meant that I hadn't played Brawl yet, so I can't make a final judgment either way. I reserve judgment on these kinds of things until I experience them for myself.

Okie doke then. Good luck with your endeavors.

 

[Losnar]

Lol. You ban the top tier characters....then high tier becomes the new top tier. You ban the high tier characters...then mid tier becomes the new top tier. See where I'm going with this?

Well if the Top Tier has only 2 characters and the High Tier has 12 then I say go for it.

There should be more low tier tourneys.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Smash balls should obviously not be allowed. How would you feel if you traveled, for this to happen in a tourney set?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=o-KkP2YA27o
They're dumb lol. The game doesn't need more skill taken out of it, geez.

 

[Yuna]

Ok, I'm going to post the link to this again, so that people who are interested in conversing about and working towards the original post and original message of this thread can have a meaningful and non-inflammatory conversation.

[... lots of whining ...]

Funny, you've once again managed to ignore every single counter-argument I made and gone in a completely different direction, blaming others instead.

I already put to you the question of why don't you ban a character if one character is going to break the game so bad that you have to ban Smash Balls for every other character, limiting all of their Final Smashes and make them lose their abilities and possibly make some other characters not viable for torunament play. You seem to reject the idea as not viable because in the past, they gimped the entire game of Melee just to allow for the keeping of all the characters playable, even when that allowed for the characters selection to be limited to three of the top best characters, who were already the best, staying the best.

Why should Marth be banned? He's not overpowered without FS:es. Why should Marth suffer so the others can use their FS:es?

Especially when once we ban Marth, we'll still have a Top Tier. Marth was just Top Tier. With Marth gone, the Top Tier will be unchallenged. Once we ban those, we'll have the Mid Tier, which will completely destroy the Bottom Tier because their FS:es are just that sucky.

There are extremely clear Tiers where FS:es are concerned. Each Tier destroys the ones below it.

You cannot balance a game by banning more and more characters. Especially when the reasons we ban them aren't even part of their original metagame (without aids) and we could easily ban those.

You've complained about how we in Melee became more geared towards the Top Tiers despite us constantly banning stuff that made them broken. Did you know that a majority of stage bans in Melee that wasn't because the stage itself was just generally broken (like with the case of Brinstar Depths) came to be because of unbeatable Fox and Falco strategies on them?

I don't see the logic. If Marth is seen as being one of the best characters pre-Brawl without his Final Smash along with Meta Knght and Peach and possibly King Dedede and Ike, what's the point of taking away Smash Balls and finding out he is still the best? Just ban him and allow Smash Balls to be there. Then *Shock* maybe we can have Smash Balls and OMG maybe some other characters can have a chance to be viable for tourney play.

1) Marth is one of the best.
2) Meta-Knight can rack up damage but not Ko
3) Peach can do neither and her moves lack a lot of their priority from Melee. Nerfed turnips and turnip pulls (all of them are weaker now except possibly Mr. Saturn).
4) Ike is too slow to ever be any good.

We won't ban Marth without Final Smashes because Marth without Final Smashes is just Top Tier material. We don't ban Top Tiers. We ban God Tiers that are really, really far above the rest and completely force everyone to play one of a select few if they want to stand even the remotest of chance to win. This is what the competitive fighting communities of the world do.

Character bans because of brokenness are very few. That's because very few games have characters that broken. Marth with his FS is that broken.

Also, read above about Final Smashes.

Instead of just hacking away at the game until its 'perfect without any hint of luck or random variables'. Until you have a game that is nothing but three characters with every move memorized and a flat stage. You might as well just go play Tekken. The point is, instead of looking for stuff to take OUT of the game, look for things you can keep INTO it.

What is this myth about flat stages? A majority of the counterpick stages used in Melee weren't, you know, Final Destination, which was the only stage that was completely flat. Pokémon Stadium would randomly go flat for, like, 4 seconds once every 2 minutes or so, but that doesn't count.

Brinstar is a popular anti-Fastfaller counterpick and Mute City, though flat nowhere near Final Destination level, was a popular counterpick against Marth, Ganondorf and Sheik depending on who you play.

You're complaining about how you have to memorize each move? Horrendeous! Instead of, what, spamming items, which would be ideal? We do not "look out" for stuff to keep out of the game. We just ban stuff when we find broken things. All fighting communities do it.

Because this is competitive gaming. We want tournaments to be fair. And there's money on the line. We do not unban things because "it would be more fun".

It all goes back to your fundamental rule that you believe items are the problem of Smash Bros tournament play. Trust me, I understand 100% where you are coming from. But, although you have heard it a million times, it is also the entire point of the game... Blah blah its like playing Mario Kart without Items. You'd just be driving around and really only be able to pass the other drivers by your own kart drivers speed and your ability to skid...and while that's possible, in effect, everyone would just pick Bowser (going off the 64 version). That's my same argument against Melee.

How large is the competitive Mario Kart scene again? That's right, inexistent. Gee, I wonder why. Could it be because the game itself is so unbalanced and unfit for serious competitive gaming no matter what you try to do?

Meanwhile, if we set forth a bunch of rules in Melee and Brawl, we suddenly have a viable tournament game!

So really, we're probably not gonna get anywhere. I'm just expressing how I want Brawl to change things. It seems that you're already looking for the next set of tournament worthy characters but also weary of what can be broken in Brawl. I'm not oblivious of these things, but you have to come from my side of having 5+ years of seeing nothing but fox/falco/sheik players ANYWHERE I go. I'm desperate for a change, even as far as making it so such a setup as not ever allowing such a three character teir be created again.

Funny, while those were the most popular, there were plenty of other characters in use. It's not as bad as Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike where pretty much all Top10 placers at major tournaments always played Yun, Chun or Ken.

Even if one character is super-god over all the others, everyone who plays that character just won't be held in such high esteem like a Ken or Aniki or Mikael or etc.

Wait, what? What kind of logic is that? Ken? Who played Fox and Marth?

I don't like Yuna's condensensing style of speech in this thread though I agree with his points. I recall him mentioning some Third Strike analogies before as if he played it and being one of the best in UK at it I'd love to moneymatch him for 600£ (first to 10 vs my SA2 Chun) and eat him for breakfast at that. I do think he's speaking properly even if he'll scare young children off.

You see, I start out curteous. But certain users don't show me the same curtesy back, at which point I don't care anymore and stop being curteos myself. Once such "crime" to warrant my drop oc curtesy is to ignore my points despite reading them, refusing to reply to them (since they probably just destroyed someone's arguments) and instead replying only to a select few and/or repeating the same inane arguments over and over again as if I'd never counter-argued them in the first place.

Jack is guilty of this, which is why I stopped being curteous to him. You see, in another thread, I stayed curteous for 5 whole pages against a user just like that. Guess what, nothing happened.

Also, I never said I myself am very good at Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike. I, however, have insight into other competitive gaming scenes, including those that are not my own. I have many friends in other competitive fighting scenes and I at least know how to play certain games on a deeper level, despite maybe not being to actually do it myself.

I know how to play SF3. I can't do it. The guy I was talking about brought up SF3 first, IIRC, so I continued on the same path.

Regardless, Smash Balls are ****ing awesome, but a complete waste of potential on ninty's part. I also believe two competetive players should be able to neutrally agree on any rules they want like Kenryoku percieved that they could. Just, well, because. If one player disagrees, then back to tourney rules it should be, of course. Its your problem if you let it happen to begin with as you could disagree.

Yeah, if two players wanted a game of complete luck with FS:es, all items and a banned stage, that wouldn't be bad, right?

You know that it will happen sometime. Anything that can happen will happen.

Also, I want to clarify to Yuna about luck. Alot of competetive scenes from Pokemon to Super Turbo keep luck pretty much unminimalized because strategically you have to consider whether the gamble is worth it or to go for a guarantied option. Not saying you don't have very ample and well tested reasons for banning luck related stuff; but you're still a minority in that way.

1) Name 5 games with many luck-based elements that are remotely as good as Final Smashes that haven't been banned or restricted.
2) How is going for the FS risky or "not guaranteed" at tall if you do it "right" (while keeping your enemy at bay)? And what could you possibly risk by getting it? Most FS:es have so little lag afterwards, they're unpunishable even on whiff.

Man Brawl is the most limited ****ing game to play 1 v 1 though. You know that? Barely any good rock paper scissors with unequal rewards and the only thing I find skillful is Just Defending attacks with the new shield mechanism, and I'm not always sure its even giving me frame advantage. When people like, sucked Rukario's **** for his d air's versatility I had just gotten off discovering its crazyness myself and I didn't even find that impressive. Though its about the only move in the game I feel has any real strategy right now.

Brawl is not very tournament worthy, no. I've argued this as well.

But introducing gamebreaking new rules won't make it more tournament worthy. It'll just sink deeper into the "uncompetitive swamp". Sure, casual gamers can host their own tournaments with FS:es and whatnot. My even the most casual gamers will eventuallt wise up and start abusing the rules once there's money involved.

Lucario's Dair is too good, yeah (goes through Marth's Upair, WTF).

 

[Yuna]

That's one of the main reasons I put forth both the Swiss and the Round-Robin styles as possibilities; I don't know, in practice, either system down to a T, so I felt the flexibility of putting forth two systems instead of only one would help for a preliminary.

You put forth double Round Robin as a possibility. A Round Robin alone takes a lot of time. A double Round Robin takes waaaaay too long.

I would'nt expect people to pay money. Maybe a little, but not as much as a regular tournament. Unless it caught on in a big way or something.

Either way, people say that the real compettetive players go for the money and thats in a standard brawl. But even around here we hold separate tournaments for pros and non-pros. It saves us all time and gives everyone a fair shot.

What qualifies somehow for Pro-Status? And shaving off those, you'll still have competent "non-pros" left. And they will eventually abuse the rules as well. If something gamebreaking is allow, people will abuse it if money's involved.

Either way, I think holding a tournament free (possibly with gimmie-prize for the winner) would draw a lot of players because there is nothing to lose .

Tournaments weren't always about the money...

People wouldn't travel for a free tournament or one with a gimmick-prize, though. And not many would show up... at least not many of "skill". I mean, I host tournaments at anime conventions all the time (because I go to many conventions). They mostly boil down to me and pretty one-two other players who even know what L-canceling is, though, despite often having an attendance of 64 or so people.

So those kinds of tournaments invariably end up being local tournaments with none traveling for them and with a low bar for skill level since very few good people spend time and effort (because a tournament usually takes hours) on a free tournament or a gimmick-prize.

Sometimes I wonder what a Poker tournament organised by smashers would be like, obviously nothing random can be played competitively...

We use the rules the Poker community has set forth. Poker is designed to be random. And as NES n00b stated, the point of Poker is not knowing and seeing what your opponent has. Then the game would be unplayable. Who would ever bet against Pocket Aces, for example?

"A better analogy would be in a Martial Arts tourney, people would threw random weapons, at random times, at random locations into the arena/mat and sometimes, a random person would just be handed the weapon between rounds (similar to between stocks in Smash). Also, these weapons and things will be taken away eventually."

A good analogy. Let's try another. Let's assume we're watching a Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike tournament. Chun Li is top tier and Q is low tier. At random intervalls, an item will appear randomly on the stage. 3 hits from Chun Li and two from Q will make it break and give them access to their Special Arts. Chun Li's takes off the entire lifebar, is unblockable, has a huge range and is lightning fast. It can also be comboed into from pretty much every single Normal.

Chun Li's Special Arts also has a huge hitbox and she's invincible during it from the very first frame (so she can use it to counter approach). The hitbox is so huge you have to be too far away to be able to punish her for it to whiff since she also suffers from little lag.

Q's never hits, but if it hits, then it'll kill them. Not comboable into.

Or say, standardized tests. At random intervalls, people will receive notes from the test overseer. These notes would hold answers to the quiz questions. Certain people's notes will have more answers on them than others.

Not true, relatively amateur players have won past Poker Tournies. They aren't consitent like the best pros, but they sometimes win. So. . . . . yeah.

Never any big ones and the amateurs have to be at least competent or the Pros just fumbled the finals. Can happen in Smash... only with less frequency because Smash is much less luck-based.

Please don't act like you know something when all you have to go by is BS stereotypes you read about on 4chan.

See! MookieRah does it (he's a mod)! It's OK to flame people once it's become blatantly obvious they're unable to see reason.

Yes, I know the stages you guys pick. Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Pokemon Stadium, etc. And I know that you can decide to play other levels as well as long as other people decide to. As I've said in my other posts, that makes little difference when you actually go to the places I go to and then all people want to do is play Final Destination all the time. Because "That's all the good people play." And if anyone picks anything different, they literally throw a fit, getting red with anger. And you won't even pick a stage off the list.

Funny, I counterpick Donkey Kong 64, Brinstar, Mute City and Final Destination depending on the characters I play against. Other people actually counterpick based on which stages are good against whom. Falco just happens to loooooove Final Destination. So do Marth and Fox against Falco. Sheik likes Dreamland 64 and Battlefield against the Top Tiers.

People throw a fit when you don't pick Final Destination? What tournaments have you been to and were they held in Crazyland?

And so don't go off and start trying to correct me, I KNOW its not that way. I'm just saying, there's what YOU guys do, and there's what happens when I try to play people at LAN Center, Smash Bros get together, small tournaments, etc. Do you see why there's a less than positive connotation for joining the tournament scene in some areas? Because Fox/Falco/Sheik on one level is not fun. Even when you beat them (yes, I do with Marth AND Link from time to time).

Yes, because what you've experienced once or twice must be the verified truth!

Did you just say you mostly play people at LAN Center, Smash Bros. get togethers and small tournaments? Then why the hell do you criticize the competitive Smash community at large?! After all, you, yourself, admit to us not being "that way"!

Those are just over-glorified casual gamers who are n00bs. Obviously, we, the competitive community, si responsible for their actions because we are responsible for the actions of all Smashers worldwide! Guilty by associatio! I like it!

For someone who just told me to keep 'opinionated statements out of discussions' and then follwed up with 'Dead or Alive is a Crappy fighter' two sentances later, I think you should slow down.

It's not "opinionated", it's fact. Dead or Alive's design is so crappy, it's scoffed at by the competitive gaming community.

Smash is the ignored step-child. People in other communities just don't care for ours. They, however, at least recognize the depth of Melee. Dead or Alive is the ugly black sheep step-child people actually loathe because of how unworthy it is of real tournaments.

With Brawl, I've been actually trying to get all my own friends into the game, to no avail. Losing the battle to WoW and general laziness. Before I can even think about joining anything competitively again or even getting good at Brawl when it comes out, I need to figure out where all the people are around my area.

Maybe you shouldn't try to get your friends into playing the game competitively and calling them lazy for not going along with it without playing it first. Or it being out yet.

First of all, from the looks of things, items/Final Smash tournaments may very well be happening. I know it's still way too early to call anything either way, but I, at very least, am pretty invested in exploring these possibilities, and people have voiced their support for the project so far; to those people, I sincerely thank you, as I'm sure more people will in the future. Is is undoubtable that the success of this project hinges on the support it receives from the community.

Item tournaments are already happening. The pots are tiny (if they even exist), the turnout is small and no one good ever goes to them... and people don't travel for them either.

That's what Item tournies/FS tournies are going to be like for Brawl. Unless we find gamebreaking mechanics that balance them.

There are fatal flaws with FS:es, all of which have been pointed out repeatedly. These fatal flaws cannot be fixed. There is no way to fix them unless we literally break the game.

What we're talking about is an entirely new, supplementary tournament format. In all realism, this format will most likely be held at events that are separate from events that sponsor current tournament playstyles; regardless of what people think about playstyles, from what I've heard, many events simply don't have enough people or resources to hold both styles of tournament at the same time.

I'm just warning you of how bad it will be. The project can be as ambitious as it wants. But it will fail. If you even manage to get a decent turnout, the average skill level will be pretty low and is that really worthy of holding a tournament with money over?

There are events, though, that have hundreds of people in attendance, and those events hold the possibility of sponsoring both tournament styles. In that case, people who normally only play the items/FS way may feel the urge to play a tournament style without items for a change, and people who normally only play the in the current style will be able to play competitive games in a format that they might only get to play once in a while, if at all, in a tournament setting. This is, ultimately, what the point is: many people, all who love Smash, playing different ways and coming together.

Why would anyone who doesn't play Smash competitively ever go to a competitive Smash tourney, especially if they prefer to play with items and/or FS:es on, knowing the community at large doesn't?

And if you miraculously manage to get "hundreds of people" to attend an item/FS-tourney (for money?!), why would competitive gamers at large even show up? They don't want to play with items and/or FS:es. The two are almost mutually exclusive.

Very few will actually like both options so much they'd go to a tournament by "the other camp". Because it's not worth the travel, time, effort and money.

If you currently have a copy of Brawl, I ask that, if you have the time, energy, or will, please experiment with different item/character/stage/stock number/time limit configurations.

How many times must I say this:
I have. I didn't base my opinion on how the game is simply by watching videos and reaching about others who have played it on the Internets. That was just speculation before the game came out.

When it came out, I started playing it. I don't own it myself but I have 3 friends who do (all within easy access). I have played this gave extensively to test everything out and to come to the conclusions I have.

You might not like them, but they are nonetheless valid opinions based on extensive testing and experimenting. Do you really think I just booted it up, saw Marth's FS once and went "Too broken!"?

If you find something that, in practice that YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED playing Brawl (and not Melee), is broken, questionable, exploitable, or even very good, fun, and balanced, please put your findings here for now, or PM me with what you have found.

Read any post of mine.

If you are someone who holds tournaments yourself, please experiment with the above possibilities to find what works best in that setting. If you only play casually with some of your friends, let me know what works best for you, what configurations you find enjoyable and workable. If you play competitively, but sometimes also play with items/FS on, what configurations work best for you, as well?

I do all of those things because I'm also a part of the Swedish anime community and go to conventions/expos a lot.

Trust me, even the casuals and n00bs at anime conventions who don't play anything competitively complain to me about the brokenness of FS:es... and they have even learned to abuse some of them!

And while some of them want items on, they all agree on "our" reasons for banning them.

I promise, once Brawl comes out here and I can talk to some mods and/or other established members of the community, I will make a thread (or equivalent) dedicated solely to this project and the discussion of a new tournament format. For now, if you are willing to help, please do your part; if you aren't, I implore you: don't purposefully obstruct and impede the progress of others.

Why would you need to talk to some mods and/or other established members of the community in order to make a thread? Do you expect it to be stickied?

I am willing to help. I have been trying to help. So have many others who have played the game extensively. In fact, almost every single person who's ever played the game agrees with me. You just didn't like what you heard.

The mission of this project is to discover and establish a second, supplementary tournament playstyle and ruleset that incorporates items and/or Final Smashes in a competitive setting. This is not to replace any current style of play or ruleset.

It's doomed to fail. It's like trying to hold competitive tournaments in Mario Kart. Not... going... to... succeed.

Well if the Top Tier has only 2 characters and the High Tier has 12 then I say go for it.

There should be more low tier tourneys.

It doesn't matter if High Tier has 12 characters, people will tierwhore the Top4 or so of those 12.

 

[NES n00b]

Wow, epic post for win.

Yeah, you are right about Poker tournies. That is why I put relative amateurs.

 

[SAMaine]

I read a few of the comments in this topic... I didn't quite notice it before over Yuna's yelling on how Smash Balls are made of lose and phail, but thank you ShortAssassin, Jack Kieser and anyone else who said two styles could coexist. That is the type of idea I like. I pretty much stopped caring about this topic because Yuna seems as inflexible as a brick wall, and I know better than to argue with a brick wall.

 

[Yuna]

I read a few of the comments in this topic... I didn't quite notice it before over Yuna's yelling on how Smash Balls are made of lose and phail, but thank you ShortAssassin, Jack Kieser and anyone else who said two styles could coexist. That is the type of idea I like. I pretty much stopped caring about this topic because Yuna seems as inflexible as a brick wall, and I know better than to argue with a brick wall.

You've never argued against me because everytime I counter-argued your inane points, you simply ignored my posts. Kinda tells me you have no counter-argments of your own.

The two styles can coexist. One will just be gimped and not used by the competitive gaming community... because it is not competitive. They will coexist as in exist in the same universe. But not side by side. We won't be having FS-tourneys at "normal" tourneys unless something changes drastically in gameplay.

Item tournaments existed for Melee as well. It's just that very few people attended them, whereof almost none competitive and none of the competitive players ever bothered having them as side tournaments at "real" ones.

People can suggest alternative tournaments where we all play on Icicle Mountains only. I would tell them about how and why those would fail as well. Alternative =/= better/good/viable/playable.

Do you have any counterarguments to my arguments about how Smash Balls are made of Lose and Phail? I mean, who's the brick wall here, the guy who argues against people and at least gives them the chance to prove him wrong or the guy who ignores all posts that says anything that goes against his arguments?

Your counterarguments seem to be:
* Because I say so (despite having never played the game)
* Because you are a brick wall (pot - kettle)
* Because it's just an alternative (that will fail)

 

[SAMaine]

You've never argued against me because everytime I counter-argued your inane points, you simply ignored my posts. Kinda tells me you have no counter-argments of your own.

The two styles can coexist. One will just be gimped and not used by the competitive gaming community... because it is not competitive. They will coexist as in exist in the same universe. But not side by side. We won't be having FS-tourneys at "normal" tourneys unless something changes drastically in gameplay.

Item tournaments existed for Melee as well. It's just that very few people attended them, whereof almost none competitive and none of the competitive players ever bothered having them as side tournaments at "real" ones.

People can suggest alternative tournaments where we all play on Icicle Mountains only. I would tell them about how and why those would fail as well. Alternative =/= better/good/viable/playable.

Do you have any counterarguments to my arguments about how Smash Balls are made of Lose and Phail? I mean, who's the brick wall here, the guy who argues against people and at least gives them the chance to prove him wrong or the guy who ignores all posts that says anything that goes against his arguments?

Your counterarguments seem to be:
* Because I say so (despite having never played the game)
* Because you are a brick wall (pot - kettle)
* Because it's just an alternative (that will fail)

Well when your arguements go beyond because I say so and because you are a brick wall, then I might actually care to point out stuff.

Actually no, I will put up a possible counterargument on how the Smash Ball doesn't suck. You can dodge it... Many people pointed that out. You then claim that you can't dodge Marth one-hit pwn, but have you even tried using an air-dodge against Marth's FS, yet? Another topic on this board points out that Brawl is focusing more on aerial combat so much that even the idiot Level 9 CPs are doing it, even so much as jumping instead of dashing to avoid tripping.

 

[Yuna]

Well when your arguements go beyond because I say so and because you are a brick wall, then I might actually care to point out stuff.

As opposed to when I use facts and logic (frame talk, balance talk, competitive gaming talk, FS properties talk) to motivate my arguments, which is, oh, every single time?

What forums are you reading?

On that, do I have any counterarguments on how the Smash Ball doesn't suck? Yeah, you can dodge it... Many people pointed that out. You then claim that you can't dodge Marth, but have you even tried using an air-dodge against Marth's FS, yet? Another topic on this board points out that Brawl is focusing more on aerial combat so much that even the idiot Level 9 CPs are doing it, even so much as jumping instead of dashing to avoid tripping.

You cannot dodge all Final Smashes. Some of them have hitboxes that stay out far too long for you to ever be able to dodge them.

Even if you dodge it, the invincibility will wear off in time for you to get hit with it already. And you cannot dodge while getting comboed. I've had to repeat these points countless times already. Especially to you.

Have you tried airdodging while getting comboed by Marth? Not that effective (like, at all).

How is aerial combat going to help you? You're helpless in the air. If you even try to approach Marth aerially, he can easily punish you if you whiff (let go of the shield and B or just B if you whiffed while he wasn't blocking), suffer massive shieldhitstun (let go of the shield and B) or by simply abusing the fact that the Final Smash gives you invincibility from the very first frame you tap B. If you try to approach from the air, he can just wait for you to do an attack and initiate his Final Smash.

The hitbox is not simply a tiny box thrown straight forward. It's pretty big!

I've said this many times. It is obvious you haven't read any of it.

When talking about competitive gaming, we have to talk about it as if two skilled players were playing, not two n00bs who spam FS:es without thinking of comboing into them if it's possible.

While Marth and others can do all of this, the only thing the player without a Smash Ball can do is camp, stall and run away. Which is useless if they're behind. If they approach even the slightest, they die. Zero Suit Samus' FS even sucks you in from above, below and quite afar!

I've played the game. You haven't. So have none of the idiots claiming you can dodge FS:es and ****. Yes, they are idiots for rehashing the same inane arguments over and over despite tons of players telling them it doesn't work and that you can't dodge while getting comboed.

Why do you take the words of random people making assumptions who haven't even played the game over those of comptetitive gamers who have?

 

[Knight-errant]

As opposed to when I use facts and logic (frame talk, balance talk, competitive gaming talk, FS properties talk) to motivate my arguments, which is, oh, every single time?

What forums are you reading?


You cannot dodge all Final Smashes. Some of them have hitboxes that stay out far too long for you to ever be able to dodge them.

Even if you dodge it, the invincibility will wear off in time for you to get hit with it already. And you cannot dodge while getting comboed. I've had to repeat these points countless times already. Especially to you.

Have you tried airdodging while getting comboed by Marth? Not that effective (like, at all).

How is aerial combat going to help you? You're helpless in the air. If you even try to approach Marth aerially, he can easily punish you if you whiff (let go of the shield and B or just B if you whiffed while he wasn't blocking), suffer massive shieldhitstun (let go of the shield and B) or by simply abusing the fact that the Final Smash gives you invincibility from the very first frame you tap B. If you try to approach from the air, he can just wait for you to do an attack and initiate his Final Smash.

The hitbox is not simply a tiny box thrown straight forward. It's pretty big!

I've said this many times. It is obvious you haven't read any of it.

When talking about competitive gaming, we have to talk about it as if two skilled players were playing, not two n00bs who spam FS:es without thinking of comboing into them if it's possible.

While Marth and others can do all of this, the only thing the player without a Smash Ball can do is camp, stall and run away. Which is useless if they're behind. If they approach even the slightest, they die. Zero Suit Samus' FS even sucks you in from above, below and quite afar!

I've played the game. You haven't. So have none of the idiots claiming you can dodge FS:es and ****. Yes, they are idiots for rehashing the same inane arguments over and over despite tons of players telling them it doesn't work and that you can't dodge while getting comboed.

Why do you take the words of random people making assumptions who haven't even played the game over those of comptetitive gamers who have?

Here's an interesting match that uses Smash Balls:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgfsFY6y70E&feature=related

As you can see, they didn't hit every time, and they had to plan out what they would do (though in the end they still missed sometimes). Kind of a good example of what we might expect to see if smash balls were allowed in some tournaments

I'm not really for or against smash balls, I'm just giving info.

Also, Yuna, I'm not trying to be mean, but if you want people to read your posts...make them more concise. I started reading some of them and eventually just skipped them because they are toooooo long. Also, people listen better when you don't call them idots

I don't say that to put you down, but rather so that people will listen to what you say (because I know you make good points, I've read some of your threads/posts before).
.

 

[JoJoRukus]

I'm in agreement with most of Yuna's points here.
My basic argument before reading was that yes, it COULD have a place at SOME tournaments, but not traditional tournaments, and I doubt it will attract people who want to put money on the line, and no doubt if such a tournament DID exist, it would be flooded by players of characters who have incredibly hard to dodge or impossible to dodge FSes, and the concentration would no longer be on who was superior in skill at that moment, but who could run over and break open the Smash ball, at which point their opponent would be more inclined to run around and stall rather than fight back for it.

 

[GhostAnime]

You can dodge it... Many people pointed that out. You then claim that you can't dodge Marth one-hit pwn, but have you even tried using an air-dodge against Marth's FS, yet? Another topic on this board points out that Brawl is focusing more on aerial combat so much that even the idiot Level 9 CPs are doing it, even so much as jumping instead of dashing to avoid tripping.

none of this removes the random factor. also, you only pointed out one FS out if 35.

 

[masterspeaks]

This thread is spectacular with all the idiots I have put on my ignore list. Pages and pages of Yuna shutting down all the Jack Kieser & SAMaine posts. Take a break guy, it is clear those few people refuse to see any logic. I can understand how infuriating this must be, but you have clearly presented them with evidence as to why FS don't work and they just don't like what they are hearing.

 

[masterspeaks]

none of this removes the random factor. also, you only pointed out one FS out if 35.

Omg, we are using Marth's FS as the prime example because of his inherent speed and aerials, that aid him in breaking smash ball and abusing it easiest. If you want other examples please tell me how someone can effectively evade a landmaster, or air dodge samus's FS screen ****.

 

[listentomook]

Im all for the smash ball.


hope that gets my opinion across

 

[PXG]

The fact that Yuna plays the game and you don't should end the arguing right there. Its funny how Yuna'a arguments include words like "are", "is", "do", "can" and "will" while the casual's arguments are full of "might" and "could".

You guys are making assumpstions without EVER playing the game. Sure, I haven't either, yet I am VERY careful as to how I speculate certain things about the game. You can only rely on Youtube and Stage6 so much. However, I don't need to have played Brawl to know that items are unbalanced and random. That simply carries over from the last game. If there is a workaround established, then we may see a possible change in the rules. But until then, they are going to stay banned.

The fact that Marth's FS is an automatic KO, or some are impossible to dodge (because of such a massive hitbox), you must ban them, until something is worked out to balance such factors. We can't take the risk of keeping a broken part of the game unbanned, so that people can take advantage of it, ESPECIALLY, if there is money involved.

 

[MookieRah]

Here's an interesting match that uses Smash Balls:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgfsF...eature=related

As you can see, they didn't hit every time, and they had to plan out what they would do (though in the end they still missed sometimes). Kind of a good example of what we might expect to see if smash balls were allowed in some tournaments

Ok half of the FS's hit in that video. The other 2 were completely and totally botched. The biggest mistake being when the guy decided to do it when his opponent was behind him. The other being when the guy tried to perform it after a throw. If you actually read what Yuna said about using Marth's FS efficiently you would realize that these were not methods he talked about.

Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that those players knew about all of the proper setups for Marth's FS then they wouldn't be wasting them like they did. It's not hard at all to set up, and when the 2 misses occured they happened when the player jumped the gun. Imagine how things would play out after giving both players a month's time to master using Marth's FS. It would become easy and routine, and it would in effect break the game.

 

[Knight-errant]

Ok half of the FS's hit in that video. The other 2 were completely and totally botched. The biggest mistake being when the guy decided to do it when his opponent was behind him. The other being when the guy tried to perform it after a throw. If you actually read what Yuna said about using Marth's FS efficiently you would realize that these were not methods he talked about.

Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that those players knew about all of the proper setups for Marth's FS then they wouldn't be wasting them like they did. It's not hard at all to set up, and when the 2 misses occured they happened when the player jumped the gun. Imagine how things would play out after giving both players a month's time to master using Marth's FS. It would become easy and routine, and it would in effect break the game.

That makes sense. Would it be impossible for other players to also learn how to dodge, or do you think the FS is too good for that?

At any rate, I already agree that Smash Balls are too broken for tournament play, I was just trying to throw some more material in there for people to scrutinize.