Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Swamp Sensei]

The copy ability is already in place to copy abilities, I'm just giving more depth to it. Instead of playing against Ness and having to deal with PK Flash, you can now inhale pk fire, and thunder as well. You don't end up with all three, just whatever you suck up, what's so ridiculous about that exactly?

It's a balancing nightmare.

Kirby is already a bit of a dynamic character. Giving him access to every projectile move in the game is ludicrous and straight up broken from a logistics stand point. They already have to balance Kirby with all the neutral Bs. Adding in EVERY SINGLE DANG PROJECTILE is a programming nightmare.

That might make Kirby take up the time of 3-4 characters alone, when Kirby already takes up a lot of character time.

Sucking up DDD just gives you the hammer back, with this it's formerly Kirby's side b (I changed it remember). It doesn't take over Kirby's standard attacks, just his neutral special.

And we're giving him moves the character doesn't even have to begin with?

Why even have him the ability to copy the opponents moves at all if we're just going to give him something completely different just because its an opportunity for poorly thought out fan service.


Moreover, this is just inconsistent as hell.

Inhaling this moves nets you that move, but this other move gets you something else entirely...

Think about that. It would make Kirby needlessly complicated.

Balance wise, it does what it always did, make the match-up more like a ditto. This literally can only help balance the character.

You've got the idea behind Kirby wrong.

Kirby isn't meant to be a "ditto" character. He's meant to be dynamic. A Mix Match. Ever changing.

Moreover, dittos aren't exactly the best method of balancing. Balancing is how ALL the different skills stack up against everything else. Not just making things equal in strength.

Hmm I think the only Ninja attack Kirby has is Up Throw.

Isn't Down Throw Ninja? Or is it Suplex?

And most attacks are just random kicks that people assume are from Fighter Kirby, but they really don't appear in the games at all.
The ones I can recognize that are from Fighter Kirby are Jab, Side Smash and Up Smash/Up Air (with a different animation).

F-Air and F tilt? are fighter as well.

So if we look at Kirby's moves.

Fighter: Jab, F-Smash, Up Smash, Up Air, F-Air, F-Tilt?
Ninja: Up Throw
Suplex: Down Throw?, Forward Throw, Back Throw
Yo-Yo: Dash Attack

Only moves that aren't from a Kirby game are:
Up Tilt, Down Tilt, Neutral Air, Back Air, Down Air

That's pretty faithful to the character. I think Kirby is fine.

Also, if Cloud is a balanced character, then I guess more than half of the roster is garbage.
He is not OP, but he is definitely very good and not balanced or honest, there is a reason why he is 3 in the tier list.

If he's not OP, then he's balanced bro.

Balanced doesn't mean mid tier. It means he isn't polarizing or worthless. Someone has to be number 3 and Cloud isn't causing any major problems competitively.

I forgot to say that Kirby needs his Slide Attack as his new Down Tilt.

Yes.

I never really had trouble with his Forward Air honestly. It's just the grab for me.

Pac's F-Air is actually super good. Great combo move.

 

[FunAtParties]

It's a balancing nightmare.

Kirby is already a bit of a dynamic character. Giving him access to every projectile move in the game is ludicrous and straight up broken from a logistics stand point. They already have to balance Kirby with all the neutral Bs. Adding in EVERY SINGLE DANG PROJECTILE is a programming nightmare.

That might make Kirby take up the time of 3-4 characters alone, when Kirby already takes up a lot of character time.


And we're giving him moves the character doesn't even have to begin with?

Why even have him the ability to copy the opponents moves at all if we're just going to give him something completely different just because its an opportunity for poorly thought out fan service.


Moreover, this is just inconsistent as hell.

Inhaling this moves nets you that move, but this other move gets you something else entirely...

Think about that. It would make Kirby needlessly complicated.


You've got the idea behind Kirby wrong.

Kirby isn't meant to be a "ditto" character. He's meant to be dynamic. A Mix Match. Ever changing.

Moreover, dittos aren't exactly the best method of balancing. Balancing is how ALL the different skills stack up against everything else. Not just making things equal in strength.


Isn't Down Throw Ninja? Or is it Suplex?


F-Air and F tilt? are fighter as well.

So if we look at Kirby's moves.

Fighter: Jab, F-Smash, Up Smash, Up Air, F-Air, F-Tilt?
Ninja: Up Throw
Suplex: Down Throw?, Forward Throw, Back Throw
Yo-Yo: Dash Attack

Only moves that aren't from a Kirby game are:
Up Tilt, Down Tilt, Neutral Air, Back Air, Down Air

That's pretty faithful to the character. I think Kirby is fine.


If he's not OP, then he's balanced bro.

Balanced doesn't mean mid tier. It means he isn't polarizing or worthless. Someone has to be number 3 and Cloud isn't causing any major problems competitively.


Yes.

Pac's F-Air is actually super good. Great combo move.

Kirby's hammer attack, and DDD's jet hammer are practically the same thing, and balancing nightmare? It makes balancing easier. I'll get to the rest of this later.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Kirby's hammer attack, and DDD's jet hammer are practically the same thing,

Yes and no, but that's not the point.

Why is it just magically copying Jet Hammer when 99/100 Dedede won't be using that move.

and balancing nightmare? It makes balancing easier.

Not it really doesn't.

If you're going to give Kirby THAT much versatility, then his normals are going to be awful. You can't do things in a one by one basis. You have to see how this one form of Kirby affects the rest of the cast.

You have no idea how balance works if you think copying and pasting a move to a different character makes things easy.

Kirby has different stats then everyone else. Sure this one move may work on the original character because their stats are made to compensate, but not everything will instantly work on Kirby.

If you need to give Kirby THAT much versatility, his non copy moves are going to have to suffer big time to compensate. There's a reason he's not that good in most Smash games. It's because he is purposely kept vanilla so his versatility doesn't push him off the deep end.

Likewise, Kirby is a simple character, just like his series. He's easy to understand and easy to play. Giving him a bajillion things gets rid of the design philosophy of Kirby.

 

[FunAtParties]

Yes and no, but that's not the point.

Why is it just magically copying Jet Hammer when 99/100 Dedede won't be using that move.


Not it really doesn't.

If you're going to give Kirby THAT much versatility, then his normals are going to be awful. You can't do things in a one by one basis. You have to see how this one form of Kirby affects the rest of the cast.

You have no idea how balance works if you think copying and pasting a move to a different character makes things easy.

Kirby has different stats then everyone else. Sure this one move may work on the original character because their stats are made to compensate, but not everything will instantly work on Kirby.

If you need to give Kirby THAT much versatility, his non copy moves are going to have to suffer big time to compensate. There's a reason he's not that good in most Smash games. It's because he is purposely kept vanilla so his versatility doesn't push him off the deep end.

Likewise, Kirby is a simple character, just like his series. He's easy to understand and easy to play. Giving him a bajillion things gets rid of the design philosophy of Kirby.

Because Kirby already has inhale, and the hammer would give Kirby something to actually copy?

You're acting as though Kirby is inheriting their entire movesets. Would six jumps, benefit a lot of movesets, and make one hell of a character? Yes, but thats not happening and stealing one attack isn't going absolutely nullify another character's strengths.

On top of that, Kirby's moveset is kept pretty standard just to compensate for this as it is. It's pretty much why Kirby sucks through most of the series.

Giving Kirby similar projectiles isn't going to change that his recovery will still suck, (even with my side b, barring attribute changes) and that his standards will still lack range. He's pretty much made slightly subpar to allow for transformations to be useful in the first place, so no, nerfs won't be needed.

Simple character? You know he already has some depth right.? Inhale in itself is a complex move that can allow Kirby to heal himself, or suicide KO. In order to play the character on any sort of decent level requires extensive match-up knowledge. I will agree that Kirby is simple to get started, but my changes wouldn't change that anyway.

I seriously don't know own what your problem is right now, but I think I'm going to move on from... all of whatever this is going on here.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Because Kirby already has inhale, and the hammer would give Kirby something to actually copy?

Kirby's and Dedede's inhale are both very different though.

You're acting as though Kirby is inheriting their entire movesets. Would six jumps, benefit a lot of movesets, and make one hell of a character? Yes, but thats not happening and stealing one attack isn't going absolutely nullify another character's strengths.

Even one move can make or break a move set.

Witch Time, Brawl Shuttle Loop, Bouncing Fish, Flare Blitz...

They'd all be devastating on Kirby.

On top of that, Kirby's moveset is kept pretty standard just to compensate for this as it is. It's pretty much why Kirby sucks through most of the series.

Yeah but with so many special moves at his disposal how do you know it will compensate?

THAT' is what I'm saying. THAT is what would make it a balancing nightmare.

Giving Kirby similar projectiles isn't going to change that his recovery will still suck,

But you weren't talking about just projectiles.

You were talking about stuff like Dedede and hammer and I assume other things since not every character has a projectile.

Which is it, man?

He's pretty much made slightly subpar to allow for transformations to be useful in the first place, so no, nerfs won't be needed.

You underestimate your idea.

Simple character? You know he already has some depth right.?

Well duh.

Every character has depth. I meant he's simple to get started as you say here.

I will agree that Kirby is simple to get started, but my changes wouldn't change that anyway.

Yeah it would. It makes the one complicated thing about him even more complicated.

I seriously don't know own what your problem is right now, but I think I'm going to move on from... all of whatever this is going on here.

Alright then. Dropping this is probably for the best.

 

[Chandeelure]

Isn't Down Throw Ninja? Or is it Suplex?


F-Air and F tilt? are fighter as well.

So if we look at Kirby's moves.

Fighter: Jab, F-Smash, Up Smash, Up Air, F-Air, F-Tilt?
Ninja: Up Throw
Suplex: Down Throw?, Forward Throw, Back Throw
Yo-Yo: Dash Attack

Only moves that aren't from a Kirby game are:
Up Tilt, Down Tilt, Neutral Air, Back Air, Down Air

That's pretty faithful to the character. I think Kirby is fine.


If he's not OP, then he's balanced bro.

Balanced doesn't mean mid tier. It means he isn't polarizing or worthless. Someone has to be number 3 and Cloud isn't causing any major problems competitively.


Yes.

Pac's F-Air is actually super good. Great combo move.

Down Throw is Suplex, so yeah, Ninja has only one move XD

I don't really remember Side Tilt and Forward Air as Fighter moves, they look kinda similar (not much, really) to a move in Amazing Mirror like Up Air and Up Smash being similar to Fighter's running attack in that game... but now that I think about it, that doesn't really count because Amazing Mirror is older than Smash 64 and Melee... so yeah, those also don't count.

I don't consider that balanced personally, balanced for me means that they have the same amount of strenghts and weaknesses, and in my opinion Cloud has more strenghts than weaknesses.

Strenghts:
Good mobility in the air and in the ground
Good frame data, at least in the air
Combined with huge and disjointed hitboxes that have a lot of active frames
Limit, a thing that gives Cloud a buff in mobility, you can't make it disappear until he dies or uses it, and gives him 4 very useful and different options to use. And he doesn't even have to charge it that much, he can just hit and get hit.

Weaknesses:
Most grounded attacks are normal
"Bad" recovery (with that aerial speed, the speed and priority of Climhazzard, and limit, it's not really that bad to be honest)

He isn't causing trouble competitively because all the competitive guys use Top 10 characters that can deal with that kind of stuff, but yeah, there are 58 characters in this game.

Just look at MU charts, a character that "loses" to 3 or maybe 4 characters only is not balanced.

Characters like Sonic, Sheik and Rosalina (Luma) are considered unbalanced by a lot of players and they are below him.

But yeah, that's what I personally think about the meaning of balance and Cloud.

Now, I'm going to sleep.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't really remember Side Tilt and Forward Air as Fighter moves, they look kinda similar (not much, really) to a move in Amazing Mirror like Up Air and Up Smash being similar to Fighter's running attack in that game... but now that I think about it, that doesn't really count because Amazing Mirror is older than Smash 64 and Melee... so yeah, those also don't count.

I remember a spinning air kick from Super Star that looked like F-Air.

F-Tilt has Kirby kick in a similar way to Smash Kick or whatever its called.

 

[FunAtParties]

Kirby's and Dedede's inhale are both very different though.



Even one move can make or break a move set.

Witch Time, Brawl Shuttle Loop, Bouncing Fish, Flare Blitz...

They'd all be devastating on Kirby.


Yeah but with so many special moves at his disposal how do you know it will compensate?

THAT' is what I'm saying. THAT is what would make it a balancing nightmare.


But you weren't talking about just projectiles.

You were talking about stuff like Dedede and hammer and I assume other things since not every character has a projectile.

Which is it, man?


You underestimate your idea.


Well duh.

Every character has depth. I meant he's simple to get started as you say here.


Yeah it would. It makes the one complicated thing about him even more complicated.


Alright then. Dropping this is probably for the best.

I was just talking about projectiles, the. entire. time.

I said, if he sucks up a projectile he copies that projectile. Kirby would not inherit the move of ANY other kind of attack. Kirby will not get a bouncing fish, Witch time, etc... I don't know where you thought that was said, but that lead to much ado about nothing.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I was just talking about projectiles, the. entire. time.

I said, if he sucks up a projectile he copies that projectile. Kirby would not inherit the move of ANY other kind of attack. Kirby will not get a bouncing fish, Witch time, etc... I don't know where you thought that was said, but that lead to much ado about nothing.

Then what was this stuff about Dedede and the hammer ability then?

 

[FunAtParties]

Then what was this stuff about Dedede and the hammer ability then?

That was literally the only special case, which is why it was listed individually. I'm not crazy, Bayonetta with 6 jumps and a smaller hitbox would be terrifying, I don't want that.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That was literally the only special case, which is why it was listed individually. I'm not crazy, Bayonetta with 6 jumps and a smaller hitbox would be terrifying, I don't want that.

But why is Dedede the only special case?

That just seems inconsistent.

 

[Kirbeh]

I know the original question was for Smash For newcomers, but across the board I think we could do with less counters. I'd personally cut down the current twelve to a third, leaving it to these 4: if that's too much then add back for half.

Spoiler

- This one's gonna be divisive, but I'd like to see Gravitational Pull replaced with summoning a Pull Star. Like Gravitational Pull it'd pull in objects, but instead of drawing in items/eliminating projectiles it draws in items, projectiles and other characters. It stays out on stage and has a gravitational pull with a limited range. Once something moves close enough to it starts to be drawn toward it.

Items are effected in pretty much the same way as GP, projectiles are also drawn to it but instead of being rendered useless, they damage the Pull Star which shatters after taking enough hits. (And Rosalina can only have one out at a time of course.) Characters can still struggle against the pull and break free, or perhaps use it their advantage to get close faster, but will take damage upon actually touching the Pull Star which will deal a few weak hits and shatter on its own.

Aside from that, I'd like to see her Uair and Dair nerfed just a tad. And I second Munomario777's idea for set Luma colors. Also, I'd like her to get her Mario Tennis outfit or something as a second costume. I feel like they'd go with the tennis one for some reason. I just don't see them using the Mario Kart biker jumpsuit or the Olympic leotard in Smash.

- Don't really play much with Jr. at all so while I know he needs buffs, I don't know where he needs them. I know this one's a stretch but I would like for Jr. and the Koopalings to have alt colors so we can play as multiple Ludwigs, Mortons, etc.
At the very least just bring it up to 16 costumes so they each get one alt color. An easy one for Bowser Jr. would be to swap his fang bandana for his Shadow Mario one from Sunshine.

- Here's another divisive one. I'd like to get rid of Substitute as counter. I don't want to get rid of the move entirely though, we gotta keep that plush doll.

I'd replace with either Mat Block, his other signature move, or Spikes.

Mat Block could be used to block incoming projectiles and would remain on stage until taking enough damage. When used up close, it would launch enemies up as a potential combo starter.

Spikes would work pretty much as you'd expect it. He'd drop down some spikes around his general area, and they remain on stage for a little while, damaging enemies who step on them.

Now, going back to Substitute, I have a bit of a weird suggestion; a taunt. In the Pokemon games, Substitute just absorbs some hits for you, so I think it could be a taunt with a special effect. Greninja would disappear and would appear in his place. After a brief moment, it'd disappear in another puff of smoke and Greninja would reappear. If timed right would take the hit, there'd just be no counter attack.

I know his Down Taunt already has an effect., but it was just an idea I had. That being said, I know this would never happen as the substitution/counter combo is kind of a big part of the whole ninja motif.

- Another character who I'm not too familiar with aside from the fact a few buffs are probably needed. A Grandmaster costume would be neat though.

- As Drunkle Glow brought up earlier, the spinning attack from her duel with Chrom could be worked in. Honestly she used multiple attacks in that one short scene that she could be given to differentiate her from Marth.

The first few swings in the exchange could be a neutral jab combo.

Maybe an F-Smash at 0:20.

At 0:30 you've got a possible Dash Attack.
Lastly the spinning move could be a similar to the 's Airborne Assault, though a bit less like that and more like Vergil's Lunar Phase from Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 would be preferable imo.

And of course I'd like to her Counter get replaced as well. With what exactly, I'm not sure yet.

As for cosmetic stuff, Great Lord and "Marth" costumes would be nice. And it'd never happen but that Spring Festival costume from Heroes would be funny. Then there's the Harvest Scramble kimono, the swimsuit from her Summer Scramble concept art. These latter three are definitely not possible though.

- Like you might have guessed, I'd like to see Counter Surge replaced. With what, I'm again, not really sure at this moment, but I'll try to think of something later. For costumes, those Nohr and Hoshidan Royal armor sets would be neat.

- Give her a different set of default Specials plz.

- As much as I like the Electro-Shock Arm, I think it could be replaced as well as the Guardian Orbitars. The Silver Bow is one of his signature weapons so that has to stay, as does the Gift of Flight for recovery. Otherwise I'd like to see a few of his normals tweaked to "Luigify" him a bit.

Going back to his specials, I was thinking of maybe using one of the Cannons as a new Side B. They function like grenade launchers of sorts so that'd be a move no other characters have yet.

The Dark Pit Staff could replace the Guardian Orbitars to be a strong zoning weapon. It's shots are powerful, but leave Dark Pit open if he tries to aim and fire at close range.

And with the stadd being a Special Move, I thought that maybe he could have Unlimited Flight as a new Final Smash. It'd pretty be similar to Yoshi Dragon and Mega Charizard X. Pitoo can fly around freely and fire homing shots from his staff. This one isn't as interesting I know, but I think it still fits him, and I find the main moveset to be more important that the Final Smash.

- More variants as costumes like the two in Mario Kart 8. I like the moveset as it is, so I don't know what really needs to changed aside from further balancing like with most characters.

- Better air game. I know his ground game is supposed to be his thing but I'd sacrifice some attack power if it meant making his Up and Side B go just a little bit farther. Also more colors for his training outfit.

- It's probably only me, but I really wish her neutral jab combo didn't cause a bury effect. It feels odd to me. I'd be fine to see that go in exchange for some general buffs to the rest of her moves.

- Some buffs and more swimsuit recolors plz. And again, as Drunkle Glow already said; replace Riki with Reyn and rename Buster to Enchant.

- Like with Jr., I don't play DH so I don't know what he needs in terms of buffs. I like his actual move-set as it is though maybe the Gunmen could get more utility? Again I'm not sure.

- Buff a few things I guess, design wise he's near perfect imo.

- I like the Galaga grab, just make it suck less.

- Two alts that I want to see; Alpha series Ryu and SFV Beard Ryu.

- Cross Dressing Cloud when?

- Voted for her and love how she was handled, but I do think she needs some more balancing. Slight nerfs and tweaks here and there would hopefully fix her up to where people are okay with her. I think it'd be funny if she had her Peach and Daisy costumes as well, or really just another costume from the Bayo games. Her old costume from the flashback sequence would be cool to see.

 

[FunAtParties]

But why is Dedede the only special case?

That just seems inconsistent.

Omg youre impossible.

Its so Kirby gets something different, I already answered this. And yes, I know, it has different properties already, but I thought it would be nice to give Kirby his hammer back at least once.

Wow I'm sure glad I shared some of ideas of mine. That was fun.

 

[Kirbeh]

Omg youre impossible.

Its so Kirby gets something different, I already answered this. And yes, I know, it has different properties already, but I thought it would be nice to give Kirby his hammer back at least once.

Wow I'm sure glad I shared some of ideas of mine. That was fun.

Let's not start another huge argument guys.

In short you want Kirby to have more variety to what he can copy, but it only extends to projectile attacks and one exception when Inhaling Dedede to restore Hammer Flip as you want to change his Side B to the old Melee dash attack.

While that's what I got from your posts, I do see where Swampasaur might have missed that at first. I also agree that it'd be a tad inconsistent, but overall I actually do like this idea, though I doubt they'd go through the extra work to do so.

That'd certainly rework Kirby's match-up spread though. would all have multiple moves that he could copy.

 

[FunAtParties]

Let's not start another huge argument guys.

In short you want Kirby to have more variety to what he can copy, but it only extends to projectile attacks and one exception when Inhaling Dedede to restore Hammer Flip as you want to change his Side B to the old Melee dash attack.

While that's what I got from our posts, I do see where Swampasaur might have missed that at first. I also agree that it'd be a tad inconsistent, but overall I actually do like this idea.

Thanks for the summary.

 

[Curious Villager]

Isn't Kirby designed to be a simple character so that he's easy to pick up and understand for newcomers and beginners etc? If so, I think his current play style is fine for the most part.

Though I'm a bit out of the loop in regards to what the current argument is actually about so I could be missing the point...

 

[Basty]

Give Pac-Man a grab, sucks being the only character without one :^)

 

[Kirbeh]

Thanks for the summary.

Honestly, I think it's a really interesting idea, some more specifics would be nice though just to sort out some possible moves.

For example:
What projectiles are taken into account here?
Would Kirby be able to swallow Falco's Reflector? Could he swallow FLUDD's water?

Could swallowing just the peanut from Diddy's Popgun give him the copy ability? Would the banana count as projectile given that it's also an item?

Mega Man as whole has a lot projectile normals. I assume these wouldn't count right?

Isn't Kirby designed to be a simple character so that he's easy to pick up and understand for newcomers and beginners etc? If so, I think his play style is fine for the most part.

Though I'm a bit out of the loop in regards to what the current argument is actually about so I could be missing the point...

That is indeed the case of Kirby's design, and the argument here is whether or not he should be able to copy projectiles in addition to what he can already acquire from inhaling opponents themselves. So you're on point.

I agree that Kirby is fine as is, at the same time though, I think Zesty's idea is actually pretty interesting. Provided it remains limited to projectiles as they already said, I think expanding the pool of possible copy abilities wouldn't hurt too much.

 

[FunAtParties]

Isn't Kirby designed to be a simple character so that he's easy to pick up and understand for newcomers and beginners etc? If so, I think his current play style is fine for the most part.

Though I'm a bit out of the loop in regards to what the current argument is actually about so I could be missing the point...

Yes and no.

Every character has depth. As I said earlier, current Kirby can already swallow projectiles already, depending on which one it can heal/hurt him which takes time to learn and isn't something really made for beginners to the game. Sakurai gives each and every character little easter eggs to their moves, and you only really discover them by playing around with them.

Regardless, my idea is pretty much just as simple as he is now. Seeing that Kirby can already swallow projectiles, the only thing that would change is what happens after (he gets to use that projectile), and just like with copying any ability, he can always spit it out.

Of course, I'm wrong, and whatever.

Honestly, I think it's a really interesting idea, some more specifics would be nice though just to sort out some possible moves.

For example:
What projectiles are taken into account here?
Would Kirby be able to swallow Falco's Reflector? Could he swallow FLUDD's water?

Could swallowing just the peanut from Diddy's Popgun give him the copy ability? Would the banana count as projectile given that it's also an item?

Mega Man as whole has a lot projectile normals. I assume these wouldn't count right?


That is indeed the case of Kirby's design, and the argument here is whether or not he should be able to copy projectiles in addition to what he can already acquire from inhaling opponents themselves. So you're on point.

I agree that Kirby is fine as is, at the same time though, I think Zesty's idea is actually pretty interesting. Provided it remains limited to projectiles as they already said, I think expanding the pool of possible copy abilities wouldn't hurt too much.

That's a good question, and it really depends on how the attack works. For example, Palutena's Upsmash is just one really long hitbox. It couldn't be swallowed or copied. I think (?) FLUDD is as well, but I'm not sure. I could definitely see it being an issue for something like Mega Man's lemons or Villagers Slingshot, more so the later, maybe it could be limited to specials? Idk, I'm kinda done thinking about it tbh.

 

[Curious Villager]

Yes and no.

Every character has depth. As I said earlier, current Kirby can already swallow projectiles already, depending on which one it can heal/hurt him which takes time to learn and isn't something really made for beginners to the game. Sakurai gives each and every character little easter eggs to their moves, and you only really discover them by playing around with them.

Regardless, my idea is pretty much just as simple as he is now. Seeing that Kirby can already swallow projectiles, the only thing that would change is what happens after (he gets to use that projectile), and just like with copying any ability, he can always spit it out.

Of course, I'm wrong, and whatever.

If I recall correctly, Kirby only really gets hurt whenever he swallows explosive items and heals whenever he swallows any recovery items (maybe even regular items but I can't really remember) I think that should be fairly easy to understand for beginning players.

Do you mean that whenever Kirby swallows a projectile, he can spit it right back at them (kind of like Villager's pocket, except he can't really store it the way Villager does) I guess that can work....

 

[FunAtParties]

If I recall correctly, Kirby only really gets hurt whenever he swallows explosive items and heals whenever he swallows any recovery items (maybe even regular items but I can't really remember) I think that should be fairly easy to understand for beginning players.

Do you mean that whenever Kirby swallows a projectile, he can spit it right back at them (kind of like Villager's pocket, except he can't really store it the way Villager does) I guess that can work....

He would just copy that ability, like Ness pl thunder, Kirby sucks the projectile up, now Kirby can PK Thunder.

 

[Curious Villager]

He would just copy that ability, like Ness pl thunder, Kirby sucks the projectile up, now Kirby can PK Thunder.

Where would the button mapping go? Would it remain Kirby's neutral special, or be an up special like Ness?

 

[FunAtParties]

Where would the button mapping go? Would it remain Kirby's neutral special, or be an up special like Ness?

Neutral special.

 

[Luminario]

FunAtParties Though you're probably sick of talking about this now after that whole miscommunication argument up there, I love the idea, both the Copy expansion and the Meteor side B.

 

[FunAtParties]

FunAtParties Though you're probably sick of talking about this now after that whole miscommunication argument up there, I love the idea, both the Copy expansion and the Meteor side B.

I appreciate it bro

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Some minor moveset changes I would like to see are letting Link use bomb arrows if he pulls out a bomb and uses his bow right after, replace Bowser's fire breath with fireballs, have Rosalina's neutral air be the Luma Spin, have Sonic's forward air be his heal kick, have Pac-Man's down air be his butt bounce, and like everyone else I want Falco to have an Arwing FS, Wario to have his shoulder charge and for Palutena's default special moves to be changed up.

Oh, and change Ganondorfs up tilt, up smash, neutral air, and up air. Those moves don't fit him in the slightest in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member]

In the case of , I always wondered why he doesn't have his slide kick he uses in most of his games.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

In the case of , I always wondered why he doesn't have his slide kick he uses in most of his games.

Yeah, it would make sense for them to make his slide kick his down tilt. It's not like his current down tilt is a reference to anything.

 

[Munomario777]

I don't consider that balanced personally, balanced for me means that they have the same amount of strenghts and weaknesses, and in my opinion Cloud has more strenghts than weaknesses.

Strenghts:
Good mobility in the air and in the ground
Good frame data, at least in the air
Combined with huge and disjointed hitboxes that have a lot of active frames
Limit, a thing that gives Cloud a buff in mobility, you can't make it disappear until he dies or uses it, and gives him 4 very useful and different options to use. And he doesn't even have to charge it that much, he can just hit and get hit.

Weaknesses:
Most grounded attacks are normal
"Bad" recovery (with that aerial speed, the speed and priority of Climhazzard, and limit, it's not really that bad to be honest)

He isn't causing trouble competitively because all the competitive guys use Top 10 characters that can deal with that kind of stuff, but yeah, there are 58 characters in this game.

Just look at MU charts, a character that "loses" to 3 or maybe 4 characters only is not balanced.

Characters like Sonic, Sheik and Rosalina (Luma) are considered unbalanced by a lot of players and they are below him.

But yeah, that's what I personally think about the meaning of balance and Cloud.

Now, I'm going to sleep.

Balance is just a measurement of a character's power level compared to other characters, not necessarily a measurement of whether or not a character's strengths and weaknesses are equal. Top- / high-tier characters, e.g. Sheik or Mario, also tend to have strengths that outweigh their weaknesses, meaning that Cloud isn't necessarily imbalanced – his power level is similar to the other top-tiers. It'd be a different story if the standard were to have roughly equal strengths and weaknesses, since then Cloud would be significantly stronger than every other character.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Why is it just magically copying Jet Hammer when 99/100 Dedede won't be using that move.

What's more amusing is knowing that Kirby's Hammer Flip is actually stronger in the knockback department than Dedede's Jet Hammer. In other words, a full power Jet Hammer may deal more damage than a full power Hammer Flip, but its base knockback is pathetic when compared to that of a full power Hammer Flip.

Hammer Flip
BKB: 60
KBG: 70

Jet Hammer
BKB: 5
KBG: 66

 

[Sharkarat]

some of the small changes I want
Change Luma color to either be linked to costume or selectable seperately.
Give Jr. the Mini Bowser colors (red/green/blue).
Want pummel to be shaking the opponent.
Bomb arrow when you fire bow while holding a bomb.
Din's fire not putting her in free fall.
Want more changes but if nothing else replace Warlock Punch with Warlock Blade
Change up default specials.
I really like Jumbo Hoops, so if they remove customs i want changes to make super hoop closer to it.

 

[Chandeelure]

I remember a spinning air kick from Super Star that looked like F-Air.

F-Tilt has Kirby kick in a similar way to Smash Kick or whatever its called.

I just checked in my old DS (yeah XD), and nope, there is an attack called Spin Kick that looks similar to his Side Smash, but there is nothing similar to his Fair, and also nothing similar to his Forward Tilt.

Balance is just a measurement of a character's power level compared to other characters, not necessarily a measurement of whether or not a character's strengths and weaknesses are equal. Top- / high-tier characters, e.g. Sheik or Mario, also tend to have strengths that outweigh their weaknesses, meaning that Cloud isn't necessarily imbalanced – his power level is similar to the other top-tiers. It'd be a different story if the standard were to have roughly equal strengths and weaknesses, since then Cloud would be significantly stronger than every other character.

Well, that for me means all top tiers are unbalanced haha.
I mean why are you using a group of like 7 or 8 characters (the best ones) as the standard to determine what's balanced or not, the roster has 58 characters.
The top tier characters are top tier because they are better than the others, they have more strenghts than weaknesses.

Cloud walling you with Nair and killing you with one of his mini Final Smashes at 70% is not balanced.
Luma interrupting pummels and killing you at 60% with fast attacks with insane priority is not balanced.
Sonic using like 5 moves during the entire match and still winning is not balanced.
Bayonetta killing you because you tried to hit her with a Jab is not balanced.
Fox killing you at like 0% with a Fair Footsool is not balanced.
Etc.

EDIT: I just saw this in my Twitter feed, what a coincidence.

A few of many reasons why Villager vs. Cloud is horrible. pic.twitter.com/ilY70lAhR7

— Bulby (@Bulbamike) April 9, 2017

Let's add weird Z Axis things to Cloud unbalanced list.
Yeah, it's a joke, but still...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

When talking about imbalance, it seems kind of ironic that Giga Bowser is underwhelming as a Final Smash transformation; a 1.7x size Bowser could make KOs way more easily than Giga Bowser. Whereas for Giga Mac, he at least hits harder than a 1.7x size Little Mac with pretty much any ground attack.

Of course, the way the size modifier affects a fighter's damage multiplier can play a factor in all of this, since Giga Bowser is treated as a 1x-sized fighter, even when he can outsize just about any fighter who is set to 2.4x-size.

This is evidenced even further in a Giant Special Smash, where everyone deals 1.62x damage with their direct attacks, but the damage multiplier increases to 3.04x if any of them pick up a Super Mushroom; something that Giga Bowser and Giga Mac do not have access to, as they're stuck with the 1.62x damage multiplier.

 

[Chandeelure]

When talking about imbalance, it seems kind of ironic that Giga Bowser is underwhelming as a Final Smash transformation; a 1.7x size Bowser could make KOs way more easily than Giga Bowser. Whereas for Giga Mac, he at least hits harder than a 1.7x size Little Mac with pretty much any ground attack.

Yeah, it's so damn bad.

You can hit him, it lasts like 10 seconds and all his attacks are slow and weak.

The only attacks I do as Giga Bowser are Down and Up Smash, the only ones that are good.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yeah, it's so damn bad.

You can hit him, it lasts like 10 seconds and all his attacks are slow and weak.

The only attacks I do as Giga Bowser are Down and Up Smash, the only ones that are good.

Yeah, when you compare f-smashes, you know that something is not right. A 1.7x-size Bowser can 1-hit KO pretty much anyone (even a 1x-sized Bowser) with a fully charged f-smash. Giga Bowser can't even 1-hit KO a Jigglypuff with his f-smash, and yet Giga Mac and Mega Lucario can both pull that off rather easily with their fully charged f-smashes.

As for Wario-Man, he's more about off-stage performance than brute force, so while he may not be a heavy hitter, his insane air game makes up for it.

Anyway, even though he's impervious to flinching, Giga Bowser's underwhelming offensive power for his size is a huge sin, and a couple months ago, I actually took some time to improve Giga Bowser's attacks. With my own adjustments, Giga Bowser can actually compete against 1.7x-sized fighters more easily, and even KO them below 200% damage with certain attacks.

You can refer to the link below for all of my adjustments...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j0NIdzFGCHZWWy9kNfUEZaDk6TOY6ra-6qPzxhsmFQo/edit?usp=sharing

Note: EF3E3778 is the ID for Giga Bowser's Fire Breath script data. That has not been modified in any way.

On a side note, I even went as far as to extend Giga Bowser's duration to 1200 frames (20 seconds), but that could be considered overkill to some people. On the other hand, KO'd fighters can still kill time off the clock by staying on their revival platforms as long as possible.

 

[Burruni]

Give me priority moves and a less terrible shield.
Balance more speed less power. Warlock punch is weaker but launches a big projectile.
Give me back the old F-Smash and stop ignoring that Wario Land+World exists
Have things combo into themselves better.


Simple requests

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Give me a grab
Give me a grab
Give me a grab
Give me a grab

 

[Yellowlord]

Well; I am sure many of you are aware of the upcoming direct happening on April 12th. However, as we all know, the main focus seems to be only on ARMS and Splatoon 2, along with some 3DS titles, so we probably won't be seeing any Smash related news. At best, maybe we'll get release dates on the missing amiibo, but probably nothing more then that.

If they really don't plan on teasing Smash at the very least in this direct, here's hoping that E3 will be hypeworthy enough to wait 2 months...

 

[Baskerville]

Swap out Luma Shot for Luma Warp and call it a day.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think I want a Kirby Smash mode in Smash. Kirby Smash is where all the playable characters in this mode are Kirby with permanent copied specials. I don't mean just the Neutral Special. I mean Side Special, Up Special, Down Special, and even Final Smash. The character select screen in this mode would be nothing but Kirby with hats.

They all have the same normal moves like Kirby but they all have different special moves depending on the hat they are wearing.