Smash's Core Gameplay - Mindgames and Brawl

[Radical Dreamer]

My only rebuttle is this: If you have chess(melee). Then someone takes chess, removes the Rook, and replaces it with another Queen (brawl). We have a new game, new strategy, it is missing a piece now, yet the game still has just as much strategy involved, because the core is still the same. Just as many spaces, just as many pieces (just not unique ones), and just as much strategy.

That's not an accurate analogy. Assuming Melee is Chess, Brawl would be Chess without the Queen, Rook and Bishop, and replacing it with...nothing.

 

[Conda]

this thread sucks
Why don't any of you guys play street fighter or something less smash bros-like?

 

[fr0st2k]

Y'know when Radical Dreamer said it was "clear" that you don't play the game at a remotely competitive level? It's clear because of statements like this.

no .. i think its clear how blindly ignorant ... well , let me just say it ... how idiotic you are. You clearly are not an intelligent person. I bet your grades are average, nor that you were never very spectacular at anything you've ever done in your life. This goes for radical dreamer as well, and most of the other people on this board.

Sorry i had to say it, but you guys just ARENT understanding and i final hit my breaking point.

Advanced Techniques changed the way competitives played the game. THATS IT.

Advanced Techniques didnt ADD to the depth, it replaced other aspects of the game. REPLACED!

1+1-1 = 1.

God, im so sick of how many total idiots there are on this board. Blind sheep, with no individuality, no intelligence, no creativity, and you are so stuck in the little box that is melee, that you can see nothing outside of it.

This is the brawl discussion. If youre going to constantly pine for melee, then GO BACK TO THE MELEE BOARDS AND PLAY MELEE.

Tons of topics are out there trying to help you, trying to let you see the light, but you flat out REFUSE to accept it.

YOU KNOW WHAT! YOU NEVER WILL! LEAVE BRAWL ALONE. DONT EVEN BUY IT. Im trying to save you 50 dollars. You are so enthralled by melee your little brains wont let another game inside....it can't handle it.

In 2 years, i KNOW you all will be eating your words. Some player who is actually worth is salt, who knows somethign about the game will tell you that Brawl is better, and it will start to spread. And once everyone else knows it, as the little idiotic sheep you are, you will flock straight back to it.

I suggest you buy the game then. 2 years down the road when the formula is tried and true.

 

[fr0st2k]

this thread sucks
Why don't any of you guys play street fighter or something less smash bros-like?

What is the point of this post???? Are you some kind of idiot? What relevance does this have AT ALL towards the topic.

I have played Street Fighter, all of them, Guilty Gear too, Soul caliber, Tekken tag, Counter Strike, WoW, EQ, Quake, Unreal, Goldeneye, Mario Kart, Diablo 1/2. Starcraft, Warcraft, AOE/K

And not only that .. but i played ALL of them a LOT! I was great at ALL of them. What competitive games have you played?

When you have more experience with games as i do, then i will listen your opinion.

 

[BigRick]

lawl what does mindgame mean?

 

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Plain and simple, the people who think a game can't have mind games without ATs are scrubs. SF2 is like the simplest game you could find and people STILL play it till this day. The mind games are still there.

People are just butthurt because they took out these techniques that weren't supposed to be in the game in the first place, that they spent months and months mastering and basing their game around. Watch any of the higher level videos that are out there right now. It's pretty obvious this game can be played on a competitive level. People need to get over wave dashing and L canceling and enjoy the NEW game with the NEW system. There's plenty of depth to be found in it.

Honestly though, I feel like L canceling took away from depth. Sure it allowed for some funky combos but people never really had to commit to their air approach. Atleast now you can't shuffle with fox all day with no real risk other than being hit out of it. People will actually have to think about what they're doing now instead of making a mistake and L canceling it or wave dashing out of the way. Spacing becomes that much more important. I'm not even sure people know what mind games and depth are, truthfully.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

no .. i think its clear how blindly ignorant ... well , let me just say it ... how idiotic you are. You clearly are not an intelligent person. I bet your grades are average, nor that you were never very spectacular at anything you've ever done in your life. This goes for radical dreamer as well, and most of the other people on this board.

Sorry i had to say it, but you guys just ARENT understanding and i final hit my breaking point.

Advanced Techniques changed the way competitives played the game. THATS IT.

Advanced Techniques didnt ADD to the depth, it replaced other aspects of the game. REPLACED!

1+1-1 = 1.

God, im so sick of how many total idiots there are on this board. Blind sheep, with no individuality, no intelligence, no creativity, and you are so stuck in the little box that is melee, that you can see nothing outside of it.

This is the brawl discussion. If youre going to constantly pine for melee, then GO BACK TO THE MELEE BOARDS AND PLAY MELEE.

Tons of topics are out there trying to help you, trying to let you see the light, but you flat out REFUSE to accept it.

YOU KNOW WHAT! YOU NEVER WILL! LEAVE BRAWL ALONE. DONT EVEN BUY IT. Im trying to save you 50 dollars. You are so enthralled by melee your little brains wont let another game inside....it can't handle it.

In 2 years, i KNOW you all will be eating your words. Some player who is actually worth is salt, who knows somethign about the game will tell you that Brawl is better, and it will start to spread. And once everyone else knows it, as the little idiotic sheep you are, you will flock straight back to it.

I suggest you buy the game then. 2 years down the road when the formula is tried and true.

You're sounding pretty desperate, and it doesn't help your arguments.

Advanced techniques did not replace aspects of the game. They just added to it.

1+3=4 This is Melee. Now, this is Brawl:

1+3-2+1=3 Brawl takes away a lot of what Melee had (-2) but adds some, I guess (+1). It's still less.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

this thread sucks
Why don't any of you guys play street fighter or something less smash bros-like?

Actually after I went to Evo West this year I have made attempts to pick up CvS2, Guilty Gear and Tekken. Honestly, it's much harder to pick up those games though, for a lot of different reasons. The communities are simply smaller and more hidden, making it much harder to find other people willing to play these games. And when you actually do find people to play with, you find that the only people who actually play these games are all really, really solid, if not incredible players. With Smash, it's easy to find players of all skill levels, making it manageable to start out playing, and as you continue to improve. CvS2 is the game I play the most out of those other games, and it's hard to find players who won't OCV me. I guess it doesn't help that I had pretty much never played a 2D fighter in my life and decided to start at the age of 20 after being inspired at Evo.

I'm actually going to play some CvS2 and 3rd Strike today.

Honestly though, I feel like L canceling took away from depth. Sure it allowed for some funky combos but people never really had to commit to their air approach. Atleast now you can't shuffle with fox all day with no real risk other than being hit out of it. People will actually have to think about what they're doing now instead of making a mistake and L canceling it or wave dashing out of the way. Spacing becomes that much more important. I'm not even sure people know what mind games and depth are, truthfully.

Lulz, have you even played Brawl? Fox is now like one of the only characters with a fairly safe, lagless aerial approach given the removal L-canceling. You can drill or neutral air into shine or downsmash. I've seen Champ do it in videos and I was doing it to MrGanondorf last night.

 

[BigRick]

Actually after I went to Evo West this year I have made attempts to pick up CvS2, Guilty Gear and Tekken. Honestly, it's much harder to pick up those games though, for a lot of different reasons. The communities are simply smaller and more hidden, making it much harder to find other people willing to play these games. And when you actually do find people to play with, you find that the only people who actually play these games are all really, really solid, if not incredible players. With Smash, it's easy to find players of all skill levels, making it manageable to start out playing, and as you continue to improve. CvS2 is the game I play the most out of those other games, and it's hard to find players who won't OCV me. I guess it doesn't help that I had pretty much never played a 2D fighter in my life and decided to start at the age of 20 after being inspired at Evo.

I'm actually going to play some CvS2 and 3rd Strike today.

yup smash bros is the biggest community so logically you'll get the biggest amount of scrubs

 

[WastingPenguins]

no .. i think its clear how blindly ignorant ... well , let me just say it ... how idiotic you are. You clearly are not an intelligent person. I bet your grades are average, nor that you were never very spectacular at anything you've ever done in your life. This goes for radical dreamer as well, and most of the other people on this board.

Hahaha. I don't want to derail the thread but I couldn't resist responding to this. Sorry pal, but you're talking to a high school valedictorian who scored 34 on his ACT, currently maintaining a 3.8 GPA through my Senior year at university, accepted to some top graduate schools, currently executive editor of one of the top student-run newspapers in the nation, as well as a locally acclaimed artist with works in several university art museums across the state... all at the age of 22.

Not to toot my own horn (I have plenty of faults) but for you to (ignorantly) attack my GRADES and personal talents, things that have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand, in a argument about Super Smash Bros. tactics, is just hilarious and baffling.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

1440 SAT (old SAT - 740 verbal, 700 math), 3.75 high school GPA, currently enrolled in the University of California at Berkeley (which I applied to as a non-California resident). Got a 4 on the AP English Literature and Composition Exam despite completely omitting one of the essays.

Not that I'm perfect either, and I don't consider myself intrinsically talented. I would say I've had to work for the things I've achieved in my life.

 

[Thingy Person]

The aforementioned equation is poorly argumented. Let me expand.
The only AT (aside from SSHFL since I don't know what that is) that I find to have added depth to the game is Wavedashing, because it adds a little more open-endedness than dodge rolls.
L-Cancelling is a bane to depth from my point of view. Take Link's Dair. It's a powerful and useful move, the counterpart of his Fair that required timing. The Dair comes out instantly but it has lag upon landing, so you'd have to USE IT SPARINGLY.
L-Cancelling just removes that lag, making Dair superior to Fair in every way (aside from the fact that Fair is forward and Dair is down), making alternations between the two unnecessary and, z0mg, removing depth from the game. And combos =/= depth; more options don't mean you could use them in different situations. A long list of combos makes the pond wide, but not deep. With all due respect, but with what I've seen up till now, all it does is enlarge the gap between casual and competitive play. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Waveshining doesn't do jack, except pushing your opponent to the other end of the stage. What's so great about that? It deals more damage than a shine is supposed to (even then, not by so much) and what happens now? Walk-offs are tournament illegit. So much for that.
All I'm trying to say is that ATs don't necessarily equal depth. You may use it all you like, because that's part of the competitive mindset, but don't glorify it more than it deserves.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Waveshining doesn't do jack, except pushing your opponent to the other end of the stage. What's so great about that? It deals more damage than a shine is supposed to (even then, not by so much) and what happens now? Walk-offs are tournament illegit. So much for that.

You realize that waveshining can lead into plenty of other things, like grabs, jabs, smashes... pretty much anything, right? It doesn't have to lead to another shine?For Falco it is sometimes the only way to position yourself correctly to follow up a shine and continue your combo. There are huge articles on this very board about the many many uses of this one particular technique. Or did you just watch Zeldgadis' Fox combo video and assume you knew everything about it?

I'm sorry to sound condescending, and this is more directed at Frost than at you, but this is exactly what I'm talking about-- someone who says "I know all about those techniques"... and follow that statement with others that clearly demonstrate that their understanding and knowledge of the subject is quite limited.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

The aforementioned equation is poorly argumented. Let me expand.
The only AT (aside from SSHFL since I don't know what that is) that I find to have added depth to the game is Wavedashing, because it adds a little more open-endedness than dodge rolls.
L-Cancelling is a bane to depth from my point of view. Take Link's Dair. It's a powerful and useful move, the counterpart of his Fair that required timing. The Dair comes out instantly but it has lag upon landing, so you'd have to USE IT SPARINGLY.
L-Cancelling just removes that lag, making Dair superior to Fair in every way (aside from the fact that Fair is forward and Dair is down), making alternations between the two unnecessary and, z0mg, removing depth from the game. And combos =/= depth; more options don't mean you could use them in different situations. A long list of combos makes the pond wide, but not deep. With all due respect, but with what I've seen up till now, all it does is enlarge the gap between casual and competitive play. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Waveshining doesn't do jack, except pushing your opponent to the other end of the stage. What's so great about that? It deals more damage than a shine is supposed to (even then, not by so much) and what happens now? Walk-offs are tournament illegit. So much for that.
All I'm trying to say is that ATs don't necessarily equal depth. You may use it all you like, because that's part of the competitive mindset, but don't glorify it more than it deserves.

Uhhhhhh....nope.

To all of this.

If you don't know what SHFFL is...uh yeah...you know we're talking about Smash Bros right? Come on, I've only been playing this game for only a year.

Comparing Link's aerials is easily one of the worst examples I've ever seen. L-cancelling doesn't get rid of lag entirely in Melee, though I've been told it did that in 64. In Melee, it only halves the lag. For the characters with relatively non-laggy aerials (15 or 18 frames), this makes their lag appear almost nonexistent when halved (7 or 9). Most of Ganondorf's aerials are reduced from 25 frames of lag to 12, making him much safer and manageable. In Link's case, his Dair has a whopping 50 frames of recovery, which, when halved, is still very significant at 25 frames of recovery. This move is punishable whether you L-cancel it or not and should be used sparingly, or it just needs to be set up very well. In fact, Link's L-cancelled dair has more recovery than his non-L-cancelled fair. Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about here, and I don't know if you know what you're talking about either.

Waveshining doesn't do jack? Seriously, are we playing the same game here? When people claim that wavedashing in general imbalanced the game further, I scoff at them because of how much it helped characters at all ends of the tier list, including Fox, Marth, Ganondorf, Ice Climbers, Luigi and Mewtwo, and how much it didn't even benefit a very broken Peach who remained very broken even though all these other characters got better. But when it comes to Fox, I concede that wavedashing, and more specifically, waveshining, is something that may have very well broken Fox. It simply does a ton. It leads to infinite combos on some characters; it leads to upsmashes on some to set up for kills; it leads to grabs which set up for vicious combos and eventually kills; it sets up edgeguarding, including shinespiking; and for all characters lighter than Marth it leads to techchasing, which is also very potent.

 

[Thingy Person]

You realize that waveshining can lead into plenty of other things, like grabs, jabs, smashes... pretty much anything, right? It doesn't have to lead to another shine?For Falco it is sometimes the only way to position yourself correctly to follow up a shine and continue your combo. There are huge articles on this very board about the many many uses of this one particular technique. Or did you just watch Zeldgadis' Fox combo video and assume you knew everything about it?

Eh...I guess you could disregard that then. I got my info from Smash Wiki and stage ban-related topics. So yeah, I should've lurked moar ><

I'm sorry to sound condescending, and this is more directed at Frost than at you, but this is exactly what I'm talking about-- someone who says "I know all about those techniques"... and follow that statement with others that clearly demonstrate that their understanding and knowledge of the subject is quite limited.

Well, the only practical knowledge I have is L-Cancelling, due to Kaillera and whatnot. But I'm happy is at least half of my post makes sense.
And this is also why I leave the "Please correct me if I'm wrong" kind of signals in my potentially ignorant writing. A precaution from looking like a f***tard later on.

edit: To the other post: then it still makes harder to use moves/characters easier to use. As you said, managable. But if everyone's doing it, then doesn't it just speed up the game?
Nontheless, glad that in Melee, it's not like every attack is reduced to the same lagless crap, like they were in 64.

 

[Blue sHell]

no .. i think its clear how blindly ignorant ... well , let me just say it ... how idiotic you are. You clearly are not an intelligent person. I bet your grades are average, nor that you were never very spectacular at anything you've ever done in your life. This goes for radical dreamer as well, and most of the other people on this board.

Sorry i had to say it, but you guys just ARENT understanding and i final hit my breaking point.

Advanced Techniques changed the way competitives played the game. THATS IT.

Advanced Techniques didnt ADD to the depth, it replaced other aspects of the game. REPLACED!

1+1-1 = 1.

God, im so sick of how many total idiots there are on this board. Blind sheep, with no individuality, no intelligence, no creativity, and you are so stuck in the little box that is melee, that you can see nothing outside of it.

This is the brawl discussion. If youre going to constantly pine for melee, then GO BACK TO THE MELEE BOARDS AND PLAY MELEE.

Tons of topics are out there trying to help you, trying to let you see the light, but you flat out REFUSE to accept it.

YOU KNOW WHAT! YOU NEVER WILL! LEAVE BRAWL ALONE. DONT EVEN BUY IT. Im trying to save you 50 dollars. You are so enthralled by melee your little brains wont let another game inside....it can't handle it.

In 2 years, i KNOW you all will be eating your words. Some player who is actually worth is salt, who knows somethign about the game will tell you that Brawl is better, and it will start to spread. And once everyone else knows it, as the little idiotic sheep you are, you will flock straight back to it.

I suggest you buy the game then. 2 years down the road when the formula is tried and true.

Yes, I felt like I had to quote your entire post...

Frost, you're getting ridiculous. You just took a jab at someone's intelligence because of this... That's terrible.

On a post before this one you said that ATs added slight* depth, but in your anger, in this post you say it added no depth.

=====================
Let me give you a scenerio.

Imagine Ike needs to anticipate an aerial approach from Fox while Ike is stationary. Theres a couple of things Ike could do that will either give him a free hit, grab, or set him up for a counterattack:

1. He could shield and attempt a shieldgrab
2. He could attempt to powershield it.
3. He could use the super armor on Eruption to score a hit.
4. He could try to catch him in an uptilt
5. He could spotdodge.
6. He could sideroll.

Those are what the basic game mechanics have to offer. The many possibilities make it so the Ike player could be relatively unpredicatable and the Fox player not to catch on and trick Ike right back.

BUT, there is one more option thanks to the help of ATs.

7. Ike could run backwards just slightly out of Fox's range and hyphen smash an Upsmash while still facing away from Fox.

And just for those that don't know, Ike's Upsmash is a 180degree attack that is slow, but punishes very well.

Did this REPLACE options? No. It just added more options, thus adding more depth to the fight itself due to the more probabilities there are at any given moment. All of the other options are just as important for the same reason that you must strive to be unpredictable and strive to predict your opponent.
====================

That is just one scenerio, frost. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You have to examine who is being unbendable here in this argument and who is being blindly ignorant. Try your absolute hardest to consider the fact that you might be wrong before shooting out name callings like you have been.

This last post of yours is ****ing disgusting, frost. I can't believe you would do that, opening yourself for attack from people that might not even know what they're talking about, but just feel the need to attack you for making them think outside the box. From that post on, you're dead to me on these boards, I really can't see myself ever taking you seriously for a very very long time knowing that you react in this way in your mind. I usually apologize after taking a jab at someone in an argument, but I won't this time because I think that you even know that you deserve it in this particular occasion.

 

[pesticide]

It really doesn't sound like you played this game competitively. "Mindgames" (hate this word) don't need to be impressive; they just need to work well. Wavedashing does work well in melee so long as you're playing a character other than Link or Peach.

Checkers and Chess are games of similar design. You can develop strategies in both of them; both of them favor "mindgames." But that doesn't change the fact that one is an inherently deeper, more strategic game with more variables to consider and more options at each player's disposal. Brawl is Checkers and Melee is Chess.

great analogy. i totally agree. but we shouldnt start thinking that brawl wont be as complex as melee based on the fact that there are less adv techs SO FAR. we can still find new ones in the coming years that will make brawl as competitive as melee was.

 

[Nilok]

Comparing Link's aerials is easily one of the worst examples I've ever seen. L-cancelling doesn't get rid of lag entirely in Melee, though I've been told it did that in 64. In Melee, it only halves the lag. For the characters with relatively non-laggy aerials (15 or 18 frames), this makes their lag appear almost nonexistent when halved (7 or 9). Most of Ganondorf's aerials are reduced from 25 frames of lag to 12, making him much safer and manageable. In Link's case, his Dair has a whopping 50 frames of recovery, which, when halved, is still very significant at 25 frames of recovery. This move is punishable whether you L-cancel it or not and should be used sparingly, or it just needs to be set up very well. In fact, Link's L-cancelled dair has more recovery than his non-L-cancelled fair. Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about here, and I don't know if you know what you're talking about either.

From my experience, that is not wholly true. I have been able to reduce Link's Dair to the point of being able to jump nearly the same moment I land. This may be because of the version of Melee I use, or simply because I get lucky timing. However whatever the reason, L-Canceling is acts slightly different than what you say.

I will also go on to say that current comparisons of Melee to Brawl are all but mute. Simply arguing that one is better than the other without giving the qualifier that we know very little of what Brawl is capable is arrogant and even ignorant to a point.

If Melee=M is, What 64 had=3=X, What we too away from 64=-1=-A, What Melee added=2=Y, and ATs=1=C, we come up with X-A+Y+C=M, or 3-1+2+1=5

If we continue the analogy to Brawl, and M still represents Melee.
Brawl=B, What Brawl added=1(currently)=D ATs Removed=-1=-C, We would come up with M-C+D=B we would come up with 5-1+1=5. Thus giving us with the same amounts.

HOWEVER! only if these were the only things in the game. we know very little about Brawl, in fact there may be things we find in the game that may raise it above Melee like comparing Melee to 64, or we may find things that in fact detract from the game far more that it gives up, thus dropping it down below Melee.

The main point is that there are a number of variable that we don't know about, probably the correct equation for Brawl is this: M-C+D±L±G=B (±=Plus or Minus).
There are currently too many unknowns to say that one game is better than the other at this point.

The current Competitive players, please hold off until we have more information. At the moment you are making Competitive players look bad, please hold off on saying one game is better than the other.

This also goes to the Casual players saying that Brawl is a better game, Once again we have no information to prove that one way or the other, you too are making Casual look ignorant.

Sorry for being so long winded, however I feel that need to be said.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hahaha. I don't want to derail the thread but I couldn't resist responding to this. Sorry pal, but you're talking to a high school valedictorian who scored 34 on his ACT, currently maintaining a 3.8 GPA through my Senior year at university, accepted to some top graduate schools, currently executive editor of one of the top student-run newspapers in the nation, as well as a locally acclaimed artist with works in several university art museums across the state... all at the age of 22.

Not to toot my own horn (I have plenty of faults) but for you to (ignorantly) attack my GRADES and personal talents, things that have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand, in a argument about Super Smash Bros. tactics, is just hilarious and baffling.

Doesn't matter how good you are academically so why are youeven bothering to answer such an attack?

Einstein was a C student and created the theory of E=mc^2
Many of the world's genius' were actually quite poor academically.
i don't believe Mendeleve or many other of the world's greatest and brightest minds were academically superior to those around them.

Simply because one's academics are high does nothing to prove how intelligent a person is overall. If anything it makes them seem somewhat moronic for even making such a claim.

 

[infernovia]

I think we should all lock these kind of discussions till next week just because I am tired of people saying it hasn't been released yet.

And I don't know what people have been saying, but advanced techs will allow you mindgame better than the lack of it. Your imagination might be limitless, but when your tools aren't it hardly gets any fruition.

And then there is the question as to what kind of advanced techs you can find. They might even make brawl slower and more defensive. Not fun in my opinion.

 

[xS A M U R A Ix]

Lulz, have you even played Brawl? Fox is now like one of the only characters with a fairly safe, lagless aerial approach given the removal L-canceling. You can drill or neutral air into shine or downsmash. I've seen Champ do it in videos and I was doing it to MrGanondorf last night.

Yes I have and it's still a bit different than it was in Melee.

 

[Smo]

What I am trying to say is that you can imagine anything. Your mind can go anywhere. But what goes on in your mind has no effect on the real world if you have no means of implementing or realizing these ideas.
Advanced techs such as the dreaded wavedash are tools that allow one to implement these things.
You will never "feel the fear of an opponent" if the opponent has no moves with which to actually strike fear into you. There has to be a medium through which he can influence your mind and your emotions. This is where techniques and skills in the game come into play. I'll agree that they don't have to be advanced techs, but I don't see why one would be opposed to something that allows you to better influence your opponent, which advanced techs do.

this guy won the thread on the second page.


let's imagine a melee match with someone using ATs and someone who doesn't.
The non-AT guy ... let's call him casual*** (joking about the *** bit i have nothing wrong with casual players, but it's funny) all he can do is full hopped aerials, dash to get around quickly (ie can't change direction as quickly, can't move backwords), has only 5 actions on ledge (let go, climb on, attack, jump, roll), has a slower grab, can't use attacks as quickly from aerials (so has fewer combo possibilities) and can't reduce damage and stun time effectively (once again reducing counter attack possiblities).

Tourney*** can do all of these things, giving him many more options for applying his strategy. More ways to evade attacks, take attacks strategically, more ways to set up for attacks.


ie. more mindgames with more techniques!

 

[Nilok]

this guy won the thread on the second page.


let's imagine a melee match with someone using ATs and someone who doesn't.
The non-AT guy ... let's call him casual*** (joking about the *** bit i have nothing wrong with casual players, but it's funny) all he can do is full hopped aerials, dash to get around quickly (ie can't change direction as quickly, can't move backwords), has only 5 actions on ledge (let go, climb on, attack, jump, roll), has a slower grab, can't use attacks as quickly from aerials (so has fewer combo possibilities) and can't reduce damage and stun time effectively (once again reducing counter attack possiblities).

Tourney*** can do all of these things, giving him many more options for applying his strategy. More ways to evade attacks, take attacks strategically, more ways to set up for attacks.


ie. more mindgames with more techniques!

I can understand what you are saying, however your comparison is closer to a relative newbie to a pro who has been playing for a long time.

Regardless, I am not here to argue that ATs give more options, however you post feels like it is sliding towards to saying that Brawl is simpler than Melee, at the moment we currently don't have the information to conclude that. I made recently made post speaking to that.

If you are simply correcting someone earlier who was saying AT do not add to the game, I apologize.

 

[Met]

Yeah AT add to the strategy and depth. But to what degree? I have seen casual players that were very smart and unpredictable beat competitive players before. AT are the icing on the cake, but being smart is what matters the most in this game.
saying melee is better than brawl at this point is stupid... go watch the pros when melee was new and young. They look like total scrubs because no one knew of AT's
Give brawl some time because it isn't even out in the states yet.

I would also like to add that the game is ****ing sweet chillin got it almost a month ago and we have played the **** out of it and i do think in time we will find AT's so quit QQ.

 

[themitey1]

I'll have to agree with people saying that ATs added strategy, depth, etc etc. I guess the biggest beef i have with people here is they arn't open to completely NEW ATs, totally unrelated to the ATs that existed in melee. All I see with people that have been playing the game thus far is that they can't do their old ATs, AND that they can't find new ATs to REPLACE them. But what about completely different ATs? Something that's not related to l-canceling and wavedashing? It is COMPLETELY possible that the ATs I'm talking about exist in Brawl. It took years to develop and define the ATs in melee, why isn't that possible in brawl? What if the possibilities of ATs in Brawl FAR exceed what was in melee, but the fact that some people are so obsessed with finding equivalent ATs to what was in melee that they cannot (and probably will not) find these new ATs? That is what's bothering me about some people around here.

To the people that arn't like what I'm talking about, you guys are great and keep up the good work!

 

[DancingZombies]

I think the point he's trying to get across is that this isn't Street Fighter, Tekken, Guilty Gear, or whatever, that you don't have to memorize absurd combos to stand a chance. Button combos are fine for games like that, as it wouldn't be much of a game without it, but not as much for Smash. New advanced techniques are being discovered, and won't be for a while (wave-dashing wasn't discovered instantaneously). Moreover, the game has plenty of depth, strategies, and the like even without absurd amounts of AT. I'm not saying it's more competitive, but it's not less fun because of it. Even without AT, pros will still smoke scrubs, because there is still much more to brawl than just mashing buttons.

 

[Shooo-rook]

Brawl would be better than Melee if Psyduck were a playable character.

If psyduck were a playable character... humanity would have achieved everything it possibly could have achieved.

 

[fr0st2k]

Plain and simple, the people who think a game can't have mind games without ATs are scrubs. SF2 is like the simplest game you could find and people STILL play it till this day. The mind games are still there.

People are just butthurt because they took out these techniques that weren't supposed to be in the game in the first place, that they spent months and months mastering and basing their game around. Watch any of the higher level videos that are out there right now. It's pretty obvious this game can be played on a competitive level. People need to get over wave dashing and L canceling and enjoy the NEW game with the NEW system. There's plenty of depth to be found in it.

Honestly though, I feel like L canceling took away from depth. Sure it allowed for some funky combos but people never really had to commit to their air approach. Atleast now you can't shuffle with fox all day with no real risk other than being hit out of it. People will actually have to think about what they're doing now instead of making a mistake and L canceling it or wave dashing out of the way. Spacing becomes that much more important. I'm not even sure people know what mind games and depth are, truthfully.

wow <3

Spoiler

10 char

 

[fr0st2k]

Doesn't matter how good you are academically so why are youeven bothering to answer such an attack?

Einstein was a C student and created the theory of E=mc^2
Many of the world's genius' were actually quite poor academically.
i don't believe Mendeleve or many other of the world's greatest and brightest minds were academically superior to those around them.

Simply because one's academics are high does nothing to prove how intelligent a person is overall. If anything it makes them seem somewhat moronic for even making such a claim.

Wow .. i was going to essentially post this exact thing. couldn't have said it better myself.

If you are intelligent to any degree, you would know that the American education system rewards conformity and punishes uniqueness.

Intelligent people abhor the system, because it doesn't open itself to change and is restricted by the lowest common denominator, aka "Little johnny, the illiterate ******."

Performing well in school only means you can regurgitate information. It doesn't mean you can apply it.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Doesn't matter how good you are academically so why are youeven bothering to answer such an attack?

Simply because one's academics are high does nothing to prove how intelligent a person is overall. If anything it makes them seem somewhat moronic for even making such a claim.

I don't see the response as moronic since it was instigated by a totally unwarranted, unsubstantiated claim that our grades were subpar -- a claim made by a marginally literate ******* who doesn't appear remotely intelligent himself, essentially because his claims about the game were refuted and his faulty logic was revealed. His exact words were "I bet your grades are average."

Like I said, I don't consider myself particularly intelligent or talented, but the fact that my grades allowed me to get into what is easily one of the best educational institutions in existence despite racial, legacy and nonresident disadvantages says something. So lets ask Mr. Frosty, what kind of grades did you get, and from where will you be receiving your degree(s)? It's a hell of a lot easier to claim your academic performance is poor because you're a nonconformist than to actually perform well academically.

 

[Crizthakidd]

do you now why millions of people play COD4 and halo? its because the thrive of being top rank and just generally getting bettter. in melee we saw this too as kids who did avdanced teqs were better. stronger faster, smarter

in brawl we will find new things and make the gameplay fast lol chillout bro wait till the release in 3 days. the game is all there baby. shield, grab attack folowing attacks, smash

or defend, recover, get back to stadge and edge hog.

but the most important thing. its a GAME. it is suppose to be fun never forget

 

[Nitoheilapine]

-thinks for a second-

I've only read the first post and the fifth page, so please forgive me if I've missed anything already been said.

Let's see. The topic of this Thread is mindgames in Brawl. Where to start.

Mindgames are caused when strategies and counter strategies are at a person's disposal. These strategies are then used against another person to be victorious. The problem is the opponent also has a strategy and counter strategy of his own. This is where the game part of Mindgames falls into place.

If ya want to put it simple, it's rock-paper-scissors with every made up sign as well. Rock beats Scissors, but Paper beats rock.. This is just the surface.

Now lets bring in Advanced Techs which are the made-up signs kids loved to do just to win. These, when put up against a person who is just starting, will always win. Kind of like a pro against a casual gamer with no idea about AT's.

Rock beats Scissors like usual, and Scissors beats paper. BUT Tsunami beats all.

Let's mesh these together, shall we? When Advance Techniques are known by both the people. This proves to be a bigger mind game than all the rest.

Rock + Tsunami beats Paper + Typhoon + Volcano, but Paper + Spider beats Rock + Tsunami + Teacher. The now simple game of Rock-Paper-Scissors has turned into an even bigger Mind game than Risk.

I just thought of this for those people who are choked up about no wave-dashing. It's kind of like a person who has come up with the best hand sign to throw out, but instead the two people are playing slide instead. His genius plan has just been thrown out the window.

Brawl, at the moment, is somewhere inbetween the standalone game and the one with all the made up signs. Instead of Rock + Tsunami + Teacher, we only know Rock + Tsunami, and we do not know if that can or can not beat Paper in the long run.

To wrap this up, the Mindgames, as you put it, are rather lacking in imagination and establishment. They are faulty. Full of holes.

 

[Nobie]

No one cries that Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo has less depth than Street Fighter 3: Third Strike because it has fewer "advanced techniques."

 

[Skepsis]

I'm pretty sure this is one giant joke topic. fr0st cannot possibly be silly enough to miss the fact that a game with more options in any given situation is more "mindgame-able" than an almost identical game that gives you less.

Right?

I mean, Brawl may eventually have enough techniques (not necessarily "advanced" ones) which make it equally as versatile as Melee, but as of right now, Melee gives you more usable options in almost any given situation than Brawl does, which makes it pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain that Melee has more ways to mindgame. That may change in the future, but as of now, no.

 

[Mo28]

The big complaint isn't that it won't have mindgames. Its just that all the old AT's allowed for even more mindgames than the basic gameplay. Less options = less mindgames.

You understand.

No the AT's were more like fast reflexes than mind games

 

[fr0st2k]

I'm pretty sure this is one giant joke topic. fr0st cannot possibly be silly enough to miss the fact that a game with more options in any given situation is more "mindgame-able" than an almost identical game that gives you less.

Right?

I mean, Brawl may eventually have enough techniques (not necessarily "advanced" ones) which make it equally as versatile as Melee, but as of right now, Melee gives you more usable options in almost any given situation than Brawl does, which makes it pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain that Melee has more ways to mindgame. That may change in the future, but as of now, no.

dude ... are you serious? Are you totally ignoring EVERY post that concurs with my original point?

WOW!

 

[Xengri]

dude ... are you serious? Are you totally ignoring EVERY post that concurs with my original point?

WOW!

Joke topic or, not Frost.

This has been discussed, specially with you, many, many times.
Be sensible. Being stubborn in the face of logic is foolish.

If there is more options available to you, you have more actions that you can do at any given situation,
More options makes you less predictable.
More options make it more possible to lure your opponents to where you want them to be.
That is what the term Mindgames.

Can you not agree to that?

That is all the adv,techs did.
The just simply gave a player more options under any situation.

No one is saying that without Adv,techs Mindgames will cease to exist however, without them, it limits a player.
Limiting a player directly limits Mindgame potential.
Adv.techs lessen the restraints on a player, allowing them to care out a border range of commands with their characters.
It doesn't matter how hard you try to think of ways to manipulate your opponent.
If you can't control your character to carry out the command , it won't work.

I’m sure others have already told you this.
I just tried making it as simple as possible for anyone to understand.

 

[BigRick]

lawl at this thread seriously

not at frost2k... but at the late 2007-2008 members trying to teach us what ''mindgames'' are

seeing stuff like xengri wrote shows that he doesn't know what Melee is about

as long as you have 3 options... the rock, the paper and the scissor (aka the initial attack, its counter, and the counter's counter)... you reach maximum depth already

paper beats rock
scissor beats paper
what beats scissor? lawlz its rock

you dont need tsunamis, AK47 rifles, lollipops, turd sandwiches

yes the game will look NICER, but it will not be DEEPER

its called yomi layer 3

Rick out

EDIT: btw xengri I bet I could **** you with Sheik with only two approaches: grab and dsmash

 

[fr0st2k]

No the AT's were more like fast reflexes than mind games

seriously.

People are so disillusioned by advance techniques, that they forget what real mindgames are.

I already made my rebuttal about checkers vs chess . .. which incase you couldnt figure it out, was about how advanced techs didnt add anything to the game.

Its not the amount of things you can do, its what you actually use.

If you have 12 queens, youre still going to have a very strategical game, itll just be different. It has the same board, and the queen still has the same properties, but theirs less unique pieces.

ALL IT MEANS IS THE METAGAME WILL DEVELOP DIFFERENTLY!

 

[fr0st2k]

Joke topic or, not Frost.

This has been discussed, specially with you, many, many times.
Be sensible. Being stubborn in the face of logic is foolish.

If there is more options available to you, you have more actions that you can do at any given situation,
More options makes you less predictable.
More options make it more possible to lure your opponents to where you want them to be.
That is what the term Mindgames.

Can you not agree to that?

That is all the adv,techs did.
The just simply gave a player more options under any situation.

No one is saying that without Adv,techs Mindgames will cease to exist however, without them, it limits a player.
Limiting a player directly limits Mindgame potential.
Adv.techs lessen the restraints on a player, allowing them to care out a border range of commands with their characters.
It doesn't matter how hard you try to think of ways to manipulate your opponent.
If you can't control your character to carry out the command , it won't work.

I’m sure others have already told you this.
I just tried making it as simple as possible for anyone to understand.

Brawl has new attacks, new normal techniques, and new physics. This isnt more? are you forgetting about all that?