Smash's Core Gameplay - Mindgames and Brawl

[skuzzel]

Yuna, I think I agree with you, but the fact remains that right now, everyone will always be able to pull the "but its still so new" card and both sides just end up wasting time with useless arguing.

On the other hand, you could wait a year, make a single post with the same logic and evidence and silence everyone.

Just let it go till you can crush them, or heaven forbid your wrong.

 

[fr0st2k]

Because maybe you're, gasp, wrong?

Why are you so fast to believe that we're all wrong and you're right when we actually have valid arguments for our standpoint while you always reply with either silence of flamign?

tell me what is wrong with my original post? what did i say in it exactly to make you so upset?

I never even said that brawl is better than melee. I didnt even say that brawl has as much potential as melee. I said that it still has a lot of depth, and that it will do fine as a competitive game.

YUNA.. you suck, you know why youre arguments cant be argued? Because you argue about nothing!

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, I think I agree with you, but the fact remains that right now, everyone will always be able to pull the "but its still so new" card and both sides just end up wasting time with useless arguing.

Yeah, people seem to like to use that argument a lot when they're losing. But they have no problem ignoring it when they're winning (or think they do). I mean, when was the last time someone pulled an "It's too early!"-game on someone saying the game's a lot more balanced than Melee? Or that it's really, really deep? Or even "The game will be deep! Because I said so!".

It seems that it's only too early to tell if the game's bad.

tell me what is wrong with my original post? what did i say in it exactly to make you so upset?

Let me quote.

"By now, we all know what mind games are. But perhaps some of us are getting our definition a bit clouded. Mindgames arent limited to the number of advanced techniques in the game, but limited to your own cleverness; your knowledge of all the characters, all their moves, their limits, their weaknesses, their strengths. It is formulating strategies on the fly, it is faking out your opponent, putting them in a corner, and abusing their mistakes."

To which I replied "What the ATs do is give us more options to mindgame, fakeout and abuse people's mistakes." Your reponse was to ignore it.

"Its new physics subtracts nothing from its core concept. It allows for a new play style, a new strategy."

I pointed out there's not much new to make up for all that's gone. And that all of the "new" things you're thinking of was already there. It's just that it wasn't used a lot. But it was still there.

"What is it missing exactly? What makes it worse than melee? How can you be sure? If you have answers, Id love to hear."

I pointed out a few things. You ignored them all.

And then there's the countless threads in which you've posted, trolled and flamed competitive players, myself or just posted something I've disagreed with and when I (or someone else) replied to you (with valid arguments), you'd always ignore us, try to change subjects or just troll or flame us back (though this has ceased now).

I've seen you do this in so many threads I can't keep track of what you'd said in what thread anymore.

YUNA.. you suck, you know why youre arguments cant be argued? Because you argue about nothing!

You can argue with me. You just need to be good at it and present valid arguments. I can't help but notice that you've yet again bypassed everything I said and tried to change the subject.

When will you finally reply to my arguments with valid arguments of your own?

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Those 3 options are now gone and the remaining options have not been changed. There's less options, less thing you can do. And the things you can do are inferior to what you could do before.

The fact that focus has shifted means nothing. There's still less options/depth.

Wait a second, I don't think we're even on the same page, or even in disagreement in regards to depth/technicality reduction.

You say bad options are still options, I say bad options might as well not exist. Even if those "inferior" options never left, why bother using them with three overwhelming options present themselves? You say the reduction of depth makes Smash boring, I say said reduction is not a bad thing. Brawl is checkers and Melee is chess is an apt and golden comparison--but how come chess beats out checkers BECAUSE it's more complex? What happens when somebody who's played both games explicity likes checkers better? Is that person boring, made of fail and lose, etc.?

 

[BigRick]

How is it not outsmarting him? And how will Brawl be any different? How do you not find openings by tricking your opponents into leaving themselves open?

- The classic 2: camping and pressure
- number 3: mindgames/conditioning
- number 4: fakeouts/baiting doesn't seem to be that effective in Brawl because of the new mechanics (lack of WD and effective DD)... but oh well thats just based on what I've seen

And how is tricking someone not outsmarting them? If someone dashes towards a Sheik and they F-tilt, only to have that someoen wavedash back into a dashattack, how did they not just outsmart the Sheik? They anticipated their move and then punished.

No they used the fast running speed of the character in order to trigger a response. You wouldn't be able to do that kind of stuff with Bowser.

If the Sheik had chosen not to F-tilt and instead dashattacked/dashgrabbed herself, then she would've outsmarted the other person.

He's not really outsmarting the other guy he's just aware that the other guy is trying to use speed in order to confuse him.

How? One is harder to do because Peach's grabrange sucks?

Don't play devil's advocate, you know that Falcon also has poor grab range.

Captain Falcon has Nair, Fair and the moonwalk. Also, Dash Dance grabbing with Peach, not very easy because of the range.

Yes but Nair/Fair are aerial approaches, when he goes into the air you know that hes not going to grab... I was talking about ground approaches here

And this means I'm not using mindgames because? If they've got crappy reflexes, then they're a crappy player. Crappy players get mindgamed by pretty much everything.

Exactly. You dont need mindgames to beat crappy players, tech skill is more than enough since Melee is very technical. With Fox/Falcon you can simply overwhelm them with speed. Therefore with the 4 ways to find openings you only use 3.

 

[Yuna]

You say bad options are still options, I say bad options might as well not exist. Even if those "inferior" options never left, why bother using them with three overwhelming options present themselves? You say the reduction of depth makes Smash boring, I say said reduction is not a bad thing. Brawl is checkers and Melee is chess is an apt and golden comparison--but how come chess beats out checkers BECAUSE it's more complex? What happens when somebody who's played both games explicity likes checkers better? Is that person boring, made of fail and lose, etc.?

I'm not saying people are wrong for liking Brawl more.

I'm, however, saying that Brawl is less deep. Checkers is less deep than Chess. Brawl is less deep than Melee.

- The classic 2: camping and pressure
- number 3: mindgames/conditioning
- number 4: fakeouts/baiting doesn't seem to be that effective in Brawl because of the new mechanics (lack of WD and effective DD)... but oh well thats just based on what I've seen

They all existed in Melee. They are not new nor have there been things added to make them a lot more effective.

Thus my point of Brawl being less deep and having less options for mindgaming stands. Focus has shifted, sure. But there are still less options.

And camping is something that's frowned upon in competitive play. I'm not saying people necessarily loathe campers, it's that it's discouraged and if it can be helped, people won't camp. Certain stages were banned becase of camping, for instance.

No they used the fast running speed of the character in order to trigger a response. You wouldn't be able to do that kind of stuff with Bowser.

That's because Bowser is a bad character.

They used fast running speed to trick their opponent into thinking they'd do something they didn't. Harder than mindgaming as Bowser? Sure. Mindgaming? Yes.

He's not really outsmarting the other guy he's just aware that the other guy is trying to use speed in order to confuse him.

... ... ... ...

Confusing something to trick someone into doing something bad and punishing him for it is not outsmarting them in what universe?

Don't play devil's advocate, you know that Falcon also has poor grab range.

It's poor, you say? It's better than Peach's.

Yes but Nair/Fair are aerial approaches, when he goes into the air you know that hes not going to grab... I was talking about ground approaches here

What does have have from aerial Fair/Nair? That's right, jabs. He can mindgame with mixups on landing (grab/jabs/another aerial if he spaced the nair/run away if he expects a shieldgrab).

Exactly. You dont need mindgames to beat crappy players, tech skill is more than enough since Melee is very technical. With Fox/Falcon you can simply overwhelm them with speed. Therefore with the 4 ways to find openings you only use 3.

Yes, and?! When talking about mindgaming potential, balance, high level play, whatever, we talk as if two good playes are playing.

The fact that it' easy to mindgame crappy players doesn't really matter!

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Fox/Sheik/Marth were the top 3. Every now and then you ~might~ see Falco do well, or Jiggz win the last big tournament ever (srsly, wtf?), but those 3 countered **** near everyone below them, and kinda countered each other. A large portion of the cast in SSBM was completely unusable. When I'm able to use Fox against someone who has dedicated a very large portion of time to one character (Boss/Jiggz, Simna/Ness), and win just because I know how he wins (laserspam camping, shine/Usmash), without even practicing the character for more than a week, there's something very wrong with the game.

Seriously, Melee was really unbalanced, get over it. Just because you can't win the Peach v Marth match-up/Peach is unwieldy as hell now, don't go and assume the game is really unbalanced. You just suck, Yuna, plain as day. Then again, when was the last time you did anything noteworthy with SSBM? FC2? It's not hard to place in top 32, especially back when everyone sucked pretty badly. But hey, what do I know? It's not like I've ever played you.

For the record, I'm not going to watch/reply to this topic any further, so don't bother retaliating. If you don't like SSBB, then go back to SSBM, it'll still have people playing it, just like 64 did. Stop bothering us with your cries of how broken this game is, when you can't even give us reasons aside from LOLMARF. I didn't even see your little tier list, and it seems like you've ignored a lot of things brought up by everyone. Personally, I seriously think it's just that you can't get the hang of Brawl, and were so heavily reliant upon FC/Dsmash that you never really bothered to work heavily on a zoning game, but that's just me.

Either way, thread fails almost as much as a male Peach player dubbing himself Yuna.

EDIT: It'd be more fair to compare SSBM and SSBB to Chess and Go, really. SSBM is really formulaic, SSBB currently requires us to be a little more creative/think harder. Just me, though.

DOUBLE EDIT: LMFAO OMFG WRONG TOPIC, I THOUGHT I WAS STILL BROWSING THE BRAWL UNBALANCED TOPIC! OOPS!

Whatever, Yuna's the one that needed to read this post, that's all that matters. XDDDDD

 

[S623]

EDIT: It'd be more fair to compare SSBM and SSBB to Chess and Go, really. SSBM is really formulaic, SSBB currently requires us to be a little more creative/think harder. Just me, though.

Ooo... That's a good metaphor. Both require strategy, one appears very simple, other one complex, both can end up being equally difficult.

 

[Yuna]

Fox/Sheik/Marth were the top 3. Every now and then you ~might~ see Falco do well, or Jiggz win the last big tournament ever (srsly, wtf?), but those 3 countered **** near everyone below them, and kinda countered each other. A large portion of the cast in SSBM was completely unusable. When I'm able to use Fox against someone who has dedicated a very large portion of time to one character (Boss/Jiggz, Simna/Ness), and win just because I know how he wins (laserspam camping, shine/Usmash), without even practicing the character for more than a week, there's something very wrong with the game.

I keep forgetting that a great number of users on these forums play NTSC.

I apologize for this. Sheik, Fox and Marth are still forces to be reckoned with in PAL, but less so... especially Sheik.

Seriously, Melee was really unbalanced, get over it. Just because you can't win the Peach v Marth match-up/Peach is unwieldy as hell now, don't go and assume the game is really unbalanced. You just suck, Yuna, plain as day. Then again, when was the last time you did anything noteworthy with SSBM? FC2? It's not hard to place in top 32, especially back when everyone sucked pretty badly. But hey, what do I know? It's not like I've ever played you.

I'm not an American? Therefore I haven't been to many American tournaments?

Peach vs. Marth in Melee was a matchup in Marth's favour. Doesn't mean I haven't beaten good Marths in my day.

Peach vs. Marth in Brawl is a much harder matchup for Peach. That's not what I base my view of balance on, though. Someone asked for a really hard matchup in Brawl, I provided them with one.

For the record, I'm not going to watch/reply to this topic any further, so don't bother retaliating. If you don't like SSBB, then go back to SSBM, it'll still have people playing it, just like 64 did. Stop bothering us with your cries of how broken this game is, when you can't even give us reasons aside from LOLMARF. I didn't even see your little tier list, and it seems like you've ignored a lot of things brought up by everyone. Personally, I seriously think it's just that you can't get the hang of Brawl, and were so heavily reliant upon FC/Dsmash that you never really bothered to work heavily on a zoning game, but that's just me.

Funny, I provided a lot more than that. And I've also replied to every single post directed at me except for those two pages I didn't have the time to read and now I don't remember which ones they are.

I don't even main Peach anymore.

Either way, thread fails almost as much as a male Peach player dubbing himself Yuna.

EDIT: It'd be more fair to compare SSBM and SSBB to Chess and Go, really. SSBM is really formulaic, SSBB currently requires us to be a little more creative/think harder. Just me, though.

Um... we have? Or rather, I have. Creativity =/= Better. It's not necessarily better if what you can do with that creativity is more limited.

DOUBLE EDIT: LMFAO OMFG WRONG TOPIC, I THOUGHT I WAS STILL BROWSING THE BRAWL UNBALANCED TOPIC! OOPS!

This explains a lot. I thought this was a reply in that thread as well from reading this post while replying to it.

Whatever, Yuna's the one that needed to read this post, that's all that matters. XDDDDD

And you need to read this post.

Ooo... That's a good metaphor. Both require strategy, one appears very simple, other one complex, both can end up being equally difficult.

No, they can't. Chess doesn't just appear to be more simple. It is. Chess pros have quit chess to start playing go because go is deeper and more challenging. I haven't heard of anyone doing the opposite for the same reasons (in reverse), though.

On paper and in real life, Go is deeper and more advanced. Chess is, however, more popular in the West. Doesn't make it deeper, though.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I lied. It's still a boring day, and so I'm still reading this thread. I forgot that Europe has PAL, and that the three forces were nerfed a little bit.

NTSC SSBM is pretty unbalanced.

Peach v Marth in Brawl is borderline impossible. D: D: D:

I'm not claiming Brawl is better than Melee, but that it's much balanced. Right now, they're both great, but I'm kinda burnt out on SSBM, so Brawl is a welcome break. Plus, I play Sonic, so the game isn't too much slower for me.

I'd still really like to see your tier list for Brawl.

EDIT: S623, me comparing Chess and Go was kinda a jab at how formulaic and stagnant SSBM had become. Chess doesn't even compare to Go. When a computer can own the world's best player, it becomes apparent that it's nothing more than a game of patterns. =/

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

He posted it a while back, goes something like this:

EDIT: WHOOPS, different topic, correct line here

Amazing:
Original Marth (pre-patch)
Pikmin & Olimar
Toon Link

Great:
Pit
Meta-Knight
Lucas (possibly Amazing-tier if the Amazings are nerfed or we find out some Amazing combos with him)
Fox
Ike (though it could just be that he's new and people aren't used to him. I personally think he's a bit overrated)
Pikachu
Ice Climbers (if anyone figures out how to do that Chainthrow I saw)
Diddy Kong
Zelda/Sheik

Blah:
The Rest

Bottom:
Ganondorf (Forward B my tuchas)
Jigglypuff (Everything's nerfed)
Yoshi

Notice how everybody in Amazing/Great are all combo kings/would be in Melee

 

[Yuna]

InterimofZeal: It's in my "Is Brawl more Balanced?"-thread. It's just my current views on the characters and some of them are probably wrong.

 

[BigRick]

They all existed in Melee. They are not new nor have there been things added to make them a lot more effective.

Thus my point of Brawl being less deep and having less options for mindgaming stands. Focus has shifted, sure. But there are still less options.

And camping is something that's frowned upon in competitive play. I'm not saying people necessarily loathe campers, it's that it's discouraged and if it can be helped, people won't camp. Certain stages were banned becase of camping, for instance.

Yea you kinda misread my post or I wasnt clear enough. What I meant is that the first 3 (camping, pressuring, mindgames) are present in both Melee and Brawl while the 4th one, baiting/fakeouts, should be present in both but they look less effective in Brawl due to a slower game, lack of WD, etc.

That's because Bowser is a bad character.

They used fast running speed to trick their opponent into thinking they'd do something they didn't. Harder than mindgaming as Bowser? Sure. Mindgaming? Yes.

Sum1 tells you that he's going to clap his hands right in front of your face. He does it and you quickly close your eyes for a second... lol its not mindgames its reflexes and reaction time

Confusing something to trick someone into doing something bad and punishing him for it is not outsmarting them in what universe?

What? Lol I don't understand, I don't know what to say... it feels like you're trying to confuse me instead of arguing with me right now.

^^the previous sentence shows an example of how trying to confuse sum1 is not the same as trying to outsmart them, for example that's what they do in politics

Confusion is a means to avoid confrontation... Mixups are risky because your opponent can counter you correctly... therefore you don't mixup and you just use fakeouts

Very solid strategy.

It's poor, you say? It's better than Peach's.

barely... there's just more grab opportunities for Falcon because he moves faster

now look at sheik and marth... that's a long grab range for ya!

What does have have from aerial Fair/Nair? That's right, jabs. He can mindgame with mixups on landing (grab/jabs/another aerial if he spaced the nair/run away if he expects a shieldgrab).

It doesn't matter... even though he jabs after the aerial the pressure string started with an aerial therefore its not a ground approach. Btw do you know what was the point of the example because right now you're insisting on stuff that doesn't really matter...

Yes, and?! When talking about mindgaming potential, balance, high level play, whatever, we talk as if two good playes are playing.

The fact that it' easy to mindgame crappy players doesn't really matter!

Yes it doesn't matter but the crappy player analogy was to help you make the difference between fakeouts and mindgames because you still think they're the same.

 

[Yuna]

Yea you kinda misread my post or I wasnt clear enough. What I meant is that the first 3 (camping, pressuring, mindgames) are present in both Melee and Brawl while the 4th one, baiting/fakeouts, should be present in both but they look less effective in Brawl due to a slower game, lack of WD, etc.

Did you just admit to Brawl having less options?

Sum1 tells you that he's going to clap his hands right in front of your face. He does it and you quickly close your eyes for a second... lol its not mindgames its reflexes and reaction time

More like they tell me they'll do it, then put their hands out, pretend to be about to do it and then steal money from my pocket while I close my eyes from being tricked.

What? Lol I don't understand, I don't know what to say... it feels like you're trying to confuse me instead of arguing with me right now.

Ok...

"Confusing someone to trick someone into doing something bad and punishing him for it" = Outsmarting someone (though how you outsmarted them and on what level depends on what you do, it's still outsmarting them)

Confusion is a means to avoid confrontation... Mixups are risky because your opponent can counter you correctly... therefore you don't mixup and you just use fakeouts

This game does not really have mixups (what, moves vs. grabs?), so confusion, shield-pressure and fake-outs are all we have.

Very solid strategy.

If this were Guilty Gear XX Accent Core

barely... there's just more grab opportunities for Falcon because he moves faster

And it's got a longer range... and better uses.

now look at sheik and marth... that's a long grab range for ya!

Doesn't change the fact that Peach's still sucks and Falcon's better.

It doesn't matter... even though he jabs after the aerial the pressure string started with an aerial therefore its not a ground approach. Btw do you know what was the point of the example because right now you're insisting on stuff that doesn't really matter...

It's not a ground approach, hence it's bad?

Do you know how fast his shorthop and nair are? I don't really know how fast his shorthop is but I think it's 4 frames. His nair is 3 frames on startup. That's 7 frames. Pretty fast.

Yes it doesn't matter but the crappy player analogy was to help you make the difference between fakeouts and mindgames because you still think they're the same.

Fakeouts are mindgames. Mind games incorporate a lot of things. Fakeouts are one of them.

 

[Xengri]

You know, I’ve argued over some pretty obvious things with some pretty hard headed people, this ones pretty high up there on the list (So is arguing over if baiting is a form of mindgames or not but, I’m not going to even bother with something that ridiculous).
The only thing I can see as even close to a plausible argument that Adv.techs=/= more options = more Mindgame potential, is that some “certain adv.techs present one option that makes many other options obsolete and never used”.

My question is:
What Tech makes it that a basic game mechanic is never used.

Is it wavedash?
It made dashing and dash attacks never used?
That’s not true, I still use a dash attack once in a while.
It’s still a valid option and, has it’s uses.
It may be situation, but, isn’t everything?

Did Wavedash make rolling obsolete?
I’m not going to say that I personally used rolling a lot ( I can’t say I never used it ether) but, that’s cause there are better options.
Even if it wasn’t wavedash, spotdodging over shadows rolling as a evasive tactic just as much (although it needs more precision but, it is better)

If it’s not wavedash that’s being referred to as the tech that killed many other options and, made them forgotten forever, then what is?
What ad.tech made it so that other options were never used?


You know, it’s not even about Brawl vs. Melee for me.
Arguing something like that is arguing opinion and, arguing opinion is stupid.
I don’t even have a opinion on Brawl yet, and, any that I would have, it would be to early to argue for or against (It being more balanced, never/will be competitve, etc).

My thing is how, people are actually trying to say that Melee’s adv.techs hurt/didn’t add to the mindgame potential.
That’s what I’m saying is false.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I'm pretty sure most of us will be wrong as time goes on. Personally, and I know this sounds really ignorant, I think Olimar's gonna go down as time goes on (and people learn how to fight him), and Ness isn't as bad as people think he is. Zelda is waaaaaaay better than Sheik, IMHO.

EDIT: Yuna, I'm just gonna talk to you about everything Brawl related in this topic. Your other one is overflowing with idiots. Maybe AIM/MSN sometime?

 

[Yuna]

I'm pretty sure most of us will be wrong as time goes on. Personally, and I know this sounds really ignorant, I think Olimar's gonna go down as time goes on (and people learn how to fight him), and Ness isn't as bad as people think he is. Zelda is waaaaaaay better than Sheik, IMHO.

EDIT: Yuna, I'm just gonna talk to you about everything Brawl related in this topic. Your other one is overflowing with idiots. Maybe AIM/MSN sometime?

Zelda's better than Sheik. I don't think anyone's arguing this.

PM me your MSN.

 

[BigRick]

Did you just admit to Brawl having less options?

lol I've never said otherwise... my first point was more options =/= more mindgames

hell yea there's less options in brawl

More like they tell me they'll do it, then put their hands out, pretend to be about to do it and then steal money from my pocket while I close my eyes from being tricked.

nvm for that analogy the language barrier between us is too high your swedish and Im french canadian

Ok...

"Confusing someone to trick someone into doing something bad and punishing him for it" = Outsmarting someone (though how you outsmarted them and on what level depends on what you do, it's still outsmarting them)

stop ignoring half of what I say please... if you confuse your opponent into doing something wrong you are simply avoiding mental confrontation, that's exactly why I said earlier that it's a good strategy

This game does not really have mixups (what, moves vs. grabs?), so confusion, shield-pressure and fake-outs are all we have.

yep melee has mixups but doesn't have a ****load... so I guess that's one of the main reasons why many say that traditional fighters have more mindgames (which are not only mixups btw)

It's not a ground approach, hence it's bad?

Do you know how fast his shorthop and nair are? I don't really know how fast his shorthop is but I think it's 4 frames. His nair is 3 frames on startup. That's 7 frames. Pretty fast.

You can stop with your framedata about aerials now... I was talking about dash grabs in the first place. Once Falcon is in the air he's not going to grab so it becomes another situation, buttom line.

Fakeouts are mindgames. Mind games incorporate a lot of things. Fakeouts are one of them.

Mindgames do incorporate a few things but not fakeouts. Mindgames are mainly about conditionning, tactical application and risk/reward evaluation in order to manipulate your opponent.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

OMG HOW DOES I MINDGAME? I THINK U GUYS ARE MAKING UP MINDGAMES, THEY DUN EXIT, LIEK TIRES!

Only tires were confirmed for Brawl. Wario has them. mmhmm.

 

[S2]

Yeah, I don't think its fair to call Brawl's depth based on the month we've had it (a few lucky importers had it).

I'll agree, from my playing Brawl thus far it felt like a bit of a step-back. But if you judged Melee's total depth after the first month of its release in Japan, it'd probably be just as shallow as Brawl.

That being said, I don't think we're going to find any exploits on the level of WDing, but I'm sure there will still be plenty of things that will be found and need to be mastered... even if they are character specific stuff.


The problem with arguing depth is that it can't be measured or compared. One player could argue that learning L-canceling is deep and its removal takes depth away. While another player can then argue that learning the exact frames on certain air moves so that the move finishes right before landing (so no lag) is just as difficult and actually more deep.


I'm not saying that Brawl is going to be as deep of a fighter for mindgames. We'll see. Just saying that you can't spend 6 years mastering Melee and 1 month on Brawl and make a decision about their total depth and mindgames without just making a complete guess. Even if you end up being correct in 5 years about which one has more depth, it's still just a guess.

 

[Xengri]

You know, I’ve argued over some pretty obvious things with some pretty hard headed people, this ones pretty high up there on the list (So is arguing over if baiting is a form of mindgames or not but, I’m not going to even bother with something that ridiculous).
The only thing I can see as even close to a plausible argument that Adv.techs=/= more options = more Mindgame potential, is that some “certain adv.techs present one option that makes many other options obsolete and never used”.

My question is:
What Tech makes it that a basic game mechanic is never used.

Is it wavedash?
It made dashing and dash attacks never used?
That’s not true, I still use a dash attack once in a while.
It’s still a valid option and, has it’s uses.
It may be situation, but, isn’t everything?

Did Wavedash make rolling obsolete?
I’m not going to say that I personally used rolling a lot ( I can’t say I never used it ether) but, that’s cause there are better options.
Even if it wasn’t wavedash, spotdodging over shadows rolling as a evasive tactic just as much (although it needs more precision but, it is better)

If it’s not wavedash that’s being referred to as the tech that killed many other options and, made them forgotten forever, then what is?
What ad.tech made it so that other options were never used?


You know, it’s not even about Brawl vs. Melee for me.
Arguing something like that is arguing opinion and, arguing opinion is stupid.
I don’t even have a opinion on Brawl yet, and, any that I would have, it would be to early to argue for or against (It being more balanced, never/will be competitive, etc).

My thing is how, people are actually trying to say that Melee’s adv.techs hurt/didn’t add to the mindgame potential.
That’s what I’m saying is false.

Quoting myself cause I’m pretty sure this got lost at the bottom of the page.

I also underlined the irony in my quote because, sadly I’m about to do just that… ( Yeah I know, but I’m only human right?)

lol I've never said otherwise... my first point was more options =/= more mindgames

hell yea there's less options in brawl

Exactly how do less options not mean more mind games?
Then Again, I’m doubting you even know what mind games are. Ether that our, you’re trying to manipulate it’s definition to better suit your argument.

lol I've never said otherwise... my first point was more options =/= more mindgames
stop ignoring half of what I say please... if you confuse your opponent into doing something wrong you are simply avoiding mental confrontation, that's exactly why I said earlier that it's a good strategy

Avoiding mental confrontation????
Are you just making up ridiculous things now?
Not trying to come of hars but, confusing your opponent (Mind) into doing something wrong (in the game) is what mindgames are.
It’s making your opponent do what you want them to do.
Maybe you’re a visual learner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nObA-7mlsls
^That’s pretty old but, it gets the point across.

You see the mindgames there (half of which would not have been possible without the use of adv.tech)?
The players confused the person in the game then punished them.
Mindgames.

yep melee has mixups but doesn't have a ****load... so I guess that's one of the main reasons why many say that traditional fighters have more mindgames (which are not only mixups btw)

Define Mixups.
Then contrast them to Mindgames for us.

Mindgames do incorporate a few things but not fakeouts. Mindgames are mainly about conditionning, tactical application and risk/reward evaluation in order to manipulate your opponent.

The correct statement would be:
Many of which are about conditioning, tactical application, risk/reward evaluation , and baiting your opponent into something that you are predicting so you can punish them.

 

[BigRick]

So far, Melee is ALOT deeper than Brawl.

And it's okay since we don't know how deep Brawl is.

In the end I'll just say that mindgamez dont exist like Zeal cause some ppl still think that WD back and fsmash is a mindgame lol

 

[BigRick]

Oh Xengri you're back explain this to me cause Yuna couldn't catch it:

What's the difference between Peach dash grabbing sum1 and Falcon dash grabbing sum1? (Mainly in how they can land a dashgrab)

If you understand this then everything will be clear to you.

Work's over... I'm out.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

The moment a foe can predict you, a set of moves is no longer a mindgame.

 

[Xengri]

Oh Xengri you're back explain this to me cause Yuna couldn't catch it:

What's the difference between Peach dash grabbing sum1 and Falcon dash grabbing sum1? (Mainly in how they can land a dashgrab)

If you understand this then everything will be clear to you.

Work's over... I'm out.

Umm, off the top of my head.

Falcon slides when he does a dash grab, so it has a longer range.

Peaches has a short range, she stops her momentum when she does a dash grab and, *I think* hers has more ending lag.

The moment a foe can predict you, a set of moves is no longer a mindgame.

Agreed.
That's why baiting is a type form of mindgames. Your opponent failed to predict something and, you punish him for it.

I can't believe I'm seriously arguing this...

 

[OrlanduEX]

The aforementioned equation is poorly argumented. Let me expand.
The only AT (aside from SSHFL since I don't know what that is) that I find to have added depth to the game is Wavedashing, because it adds a little more open-endedness than dodge rolls.
L-Cancelling is a bane to depth from my point of view. Take Link's Dair. It's a powerful and useful move, the counterpart of his Fair that required timing. The Dair comes out instantly but it has lag upon landing, so you'd have to USE IT SPARINGLY.
L-Cancelling just removes that lag, making Dair superior to Fair in every way (aside from the fact that Fair is forward and Dair is down), making alternations between the two unnecessary and, z0mg, removing depth from the game. And combos =/= depth; more options don't mean you could use them in different situations. A long list of combos makes the pond wide, but not deep. With all due respect, but with what I've seen up till now, all it does is enlarge the gap between casual and competitive play. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Waveshining doesn't do jack, except pushing your opponent to the other end of the stage. What's so great about that? It deals more damage than a shine is supposed to (even then, not by so much) and what happens now? Walk-offs are tournament illegit. So much for that.
All I'm trying to say is that ATs don't necessarily equal depth. You may use it all you like, because that's part of the competitive mindset, but don't glorify it more than it deserves.

I don't believe anyone could make this kind of argument. You REALLY need to play against someone who know how to use ATs or at least watch some match videos of some pros to see that Advanced techs make the game so much more competitive than it is normally that you can't even recognize it. If you have no command of advanced techs and you play against someone who really does, you will be destroyed. It is just that simple.

First of all, you simply don't understand how much depth wave dashing added to the game. You need to play against someone using it extensively to actually know.

And arguing that combos and l-canceling don't add depth is ridiculous. L-canceling Link's down air does not suddenly make it as or less useful as his forward air. They have different properties besides. This applies to all characters. You also choose to ignore that l-canceling makes the gaps on the tier list SMALLER thus making more characters tournament viable and thus making the game (gasp) more deep.
Guess what. Sheik, Fox, and Marth would still be top tier without advanced techs. And guess what else. Ganondorf, Luigi, Mewtwo, Ice Climbers and a crapload of other characters who RELY on advanced techs to compete with the top tier characters would be almost worthless.

Wave shining is just one character specific tech that doesn't even define the metagame on its own. There are far more important ones.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that Advanced techs = depth. A LOT of depth. If you can't understand this, you need to consult players like M2K and Gimpy on the matter. Otherwise, please stop speaking in ignorance.

And who cares if it makes the gap between casuals and competitives wider? No one said you has to play against competitives.
PROTIP: Casuals vastly outnumber competitives in the real world.

 

[fr0st2k]

I don't believe anyone could make this kind of argument. You REALLY need to play against someone who know how to use ATs or at least watch some match videos of some pros to see that Advanced techs make the game so much more competitive than it is normally that you can't even recognize it. If you have no command of advanced techs and you play against someone who really does, you will be destroyed. It is just that simple.

First of all, you simply don't understand how much depth wave dashing added to the game. You need to play against someone using it extensively to actually know.

And arguing that combos and l-canceling don't add depth is ridiculous. L-canceling Link's down air does not suddenly make it as or less useful as his forward air. They have different properties besides. This applies to all characters. You also choose to ignore that l-canceling makes the gaps on the tier list SMALLER thus making more characters tournament viable and thus making the game (gasp) more deep.
Guess what. Sheik, Fox, and Marth would still be top tier without advanced techs. And guess what else. Ganondorf, Luigi, Mewtwo, Ice Climbers and a crapload of other characters who RELY on advanced techs to compete with the top tier characters would be almost worthless.

Wave shining is just one character specific tech that doesn't even define the metagame on its own. There are far more important ones.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that Advanced techs = depth. A LOT of depth. If you can't understand this, you need to consult players like M2K and Gimpy on the matter. Otherwise, please stop speaking in ignorance.

And who cares if it makes the gap between casuals and competitives wider? No one said you has to play against competitives.
PROTIP: Casuals vastly outnumber competitives in the real world.

s2 argued it ...

"The problem with arguing depth is that it can't be measured or compared. One player could argue that learning L-canceling is deep and its removal takes depth away. While another player can then argue that learning the exact frames on certain air moves so that the move finishes right before landing (so no lag) is just as difficult and actually more deep."

did you miss that?

 

[OrlanduEX]

s2 argued it ...

"The problem with arguing depth is that it can't be measured or compared. One player could argue that learning L-canceling is deep and its removal takes depth away. While another player can then argue that learning the exact frames on certain air moves so that the move finishes right before landing (so no lag) is just as difficult and actually more deep."

did you miss that?

s2 is trying to redefine depth. "Depth" is understood in fighting games to essentially mean complexity that lends it itself to a high level of competition.

s2's example is flawed because the "first player" in his analogy doesn't know what depth means, and the second person in the analogy doesn't realize that not all characters have air moves that auto-cancel (that's the technique he described). What of Snake and Ike? All their air moves have lag that lasts too long for them to finish it before they hit the ground unless they full jump or double jump. Those characters like Marth and Pit that have air moves with little to no lag have a great advantage in this respect because they are not bogged down by lag. If we had l-canceling however, the playing field would be more level, and the game more deep.

And as for the first person, learning a technique can be "difficult", but not "deep". You can't just use the word "deep" to describe everything.

s2 is basically ignorant about what he's talking about.

 

[Yuna]

Oh Xengri you're back explain this to me cause Yuna couldn't catch it:

What's the difference between Peach dash grabbing sum1 and Falcon dash grabbing sum1? (Mainly in how they can land a dashgrab)

If you understand this then everything will be clear to you.

Work's over... I'm out.

I thought I explained it very well:
Falcon's is easier to land because of the range.

Peach can "mixup" with a dashattack, but Falcon can mixup with a Nair.

 

[Yuna]

Not to mention that auto-canceling did exist in Melee. Auto-canceling aerials is not as good as L-canceling them because you're still quasi-open.

Shieldhopped aerials, anyone? Even if you auto-cancel your attack, if they shield-hop aerial you right then, you won't have enough time to attack again most of the time. And what if you just auto-canceled them in the air? What are you going to do then? Airdodge to dodge the shieldgrab? 2nd jump away? Do another aerial (and land and lag during it)?

Very few characters can do much with the auto-cancel (at least not to the extent of L-canceling). Marth just happens to excel at it.

The options are still very limited.

Sorry. Forgot I'd just posted in it this thread.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Any new opinions on this topic? Has Brawl become better (mindgame wise) since this came out?