D
Deleted member
Guest
That's never happened to me.
That Wolf guide is also in need of an update. :/
That Wolf guide is also in need of an update. :/
-
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Sonic Matchup Export : Wolf
- Thread starter Tesh
- Start date
Goldenadept
Smash Lord
i've never had ftilt clash agaisnt another move, either both hits connect or it gets shielded, that'd be an interesting thing to test though
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Also, I thought we were doing the whole Advantage/Slight Disadvantage/etc. thing?
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
65:45 is impossible <_<
you mean 65:35. Which I can agree with.
^
This.
Needs more "how do I play this matchup?" and "what do I look for?/how do I get around this strategy?" than 66.5:34.837
XLR8TION
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2009
- Messages
- 833
- NNID
- XLR8TION
- 3DS FC
- 4399-0465-6002
the 65:45 thing was a typo and i just tried to throw my 2 cents in, im not gud with the
"how do I play this matchup?" part...so ill just stay out lol
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
I'm aware it has multiple uses, I usually jump over it or shoot lasers at it but I dunno, I always felt that if Mush or Trent were to throw out of that attack more often it would significantly change the outcome of the matches, sometimes. Not a troll.
Come somewhere I'll be at and I'll make it happen.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
That's cute and all but like NE doesn't even have any players worth talking about outside of Trent.
/0.02
I'm pretty sure I'm better than your entire PR. I could move to NE right now, go to like 3 tournaments and outplace you in everyone of them.
/KIDGogglesmode.
As far as you saying I'm not good with Sonic, I'm the best Sonic this side of the MW and I'm pretty certain I'm a notch above Trent. The reason I don't place as well is because people know how to beat Sonic around these parts.
/truth
D
Deleted member
Guest
Damn...fighting words up in this thread.
JayBee
Smash Champion
when i get off of work ill put my two cents in since i've had good wolf experience often. and no, im not talking about ninjalink (lol to anyone who knows what i mean) but its slight disadvantage for sonic.
Mr. Johan
Smash Hero
Yeah, I exaggerated. Dunno why I thought it did that much, lol
Yes, but because it's going to be stale 90% of the time, it's not going to be a move used with the intent to kill unless Sonic is both way high in percentage and is really really good at staying away from the other three moves +utilt.
I remember reading it somewhere a while back. It may be stronger than Squirtle's and maybe Peach's though. The speed and range of the move more than make up for it though.
How decent does Wolf fare on Yoshi's and Pictochat, since those will be the likeliest places Sonic is going to counterpick? What about other stages if Sonic doesn't feel confident on those two?
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=287217
look for #1. I'm not saying it would be easy, I'm saying it would be the easiest thing I'd do all month.
And Tyser plays D3 and would probably 3 stock you if you played sonic.
look for #1. I'm not saying it would be easy, I'm saying it would be the easiest thing I'd do all month.
And Tyser plays D3 and would probably 3 stock you if you played sonic.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm with the wuff on this one. :3
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Doubt it. Highly doubt it. The only D3 to 3 stock me was Coney. Also, #1 in NE doesn't mean **** to me. You may as well be #1 in North Dakota.
This isn't a trash talk thread/social. If you want to money match a good D3 from NE, record the matches and give you input on the DDD matchup, you can do it in the Sonic V DDD matchup thread. But being 100% of the topic of thread is not okay.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
MU discussions suck. Both parties talk like the other character can't do so n so as long as they do this and that. Some don't even know what their talking about. Best thing to do is find a competent Wolf play him and take from it what you can. There is never no middle ground on these things
That might work with the MK/Snake matchups, but not every Sonic has a competent Wolf to play against and not every Wolf has a competent Sonic to play against. Experience is your most valuable tool and you won't get much of anywhere without it. However it doesn't hurt to have some information ahead of time. Things you might not have known without someone else telling you.
We don't need middle ground really. Its all about information. For example, Seagull seems to be 100% correct on most of the stuff he brought up. However there probably aren't many Sonics that agree with him on how relevant it is to the entire matchup. Thats perfectly useful discussion regardless.
Perhaps you have something useful to add Kain?
We don't need middle ground really. Its all about information. For example, Seagull seems to be 100% correct on most of the stuff he brought up. However there probably aren't many Sonics that agree with him on how relevant it is to the entire matchup. Thats perfectly useful discussion regardless.
Perhaps you have something useful to add Kain?
resTy
Smash Champion
Why am I even being mentioned? I play Melee...
And for the record, Nebraska Brawl is free. Don't get it twisted.
- Tyser
And for the record, Nebraska Brawl is free. Don't get it twisted.
- Tyser
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Also@Tesh, in response to how Wolf usually kills Sonic. It's usually with retreated Fairs. I just wait for Sonic to either leave himself open or spindash at me and retreat a Fair to kill.
I would really love Speed's input on the matchup too, since he's one of the Sonic's I have played and learned from. Shado doesn't usually post here, but Speed does so I imagine Speed has an idea on the matchup.
I would really love Speed's input on the matchup too, since he's one of the Sonic's I have played and learned from. Shado doesn't usually post here, but Speed does so I imagine Speed has an idea on the matchup.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
Seagull was the only informative one though that's what I mean lol.
And I have nothing to say cause only Sonic I played was Trent in friendlies and I just know ban YI or Picto whichever you hate more against Sonic. Only people who prolly know stuff are Seagull (plays Speed) and Choice (played X)
And I have nothing to say cause only Sonic I played was Trent in friendlies and I just know ban YI or Picto whichever you hate more against Sonic. Only people who prolly know stuff are Seagull (plays Speed) and Choice (played X)
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
And Yes! But he only uses wolf for characters that he ***** like yoshi and sonic loool.
D
Deleted member
Guest
If you're talking about Choice, he uses Wolf/Falco evenly.
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
No I mean the NJ player named Yes! lol. He's played myself and a few other sonics in the region. He and I both agree that wolf obliterates sonic lol.
JayBee
Smash Champion
Well to me it's pretty even. Sonic vs Wolf is a matchup where both characters have to get in to get thier game going, but they both can prevent the other from getting in on thier terms pretty well. For the Basics...
Sonic wants in so he can create offense through his follow-up/mixup game, and he does this through punishment opportnuities. but Wolf has the tools to zone him out, mainly with moves like bair. Sonic can avoid getting hit with bair but punishing a retreating bair isn't in his favor. It minimizes the ability to land a shield grab, which is one of sonics ways to open up his offense. Add to the fact that Wolf is better than sonic up close, and Sonic will end up spending a lot of time out side of bair/ ftilt range weaving and looking for any pattern to exploit, usually limiting his spin dashes, out side of cancels to bait reactions. he could counter poke with bair, but Wolf's is fasterm better for spacing than Sonic's. I try to place my self just about Wolfs forward smash range so that he has to move forward to hit me, and if I see it I can punish.
Wolf wants to get in to, so he can abuse he advantage over sonic in melee range, but the problem is that sonic is, well, too damn fast to react to. so he has to zone, and especially at the offset try to get sonic to come to him on his terms while being as safe as possible. the problem with that is, while his normals and tils are very good against Sonic, his laser isn't that great at forcing Sonic to approach recklessly (depending on the stage, its near useless). he must still rely primarily on zoning with aeirlas to defensively pressure sonic unil he can safely get in his face.
The issue that makes this even in my opinion is that someone has to make a move at some point, but it doesn't look like either can literally create a situation where they can get in with a significant advantage. someone has to take the risk. If Sonic calls it right, he goes into his mixup game and in my experience can put himself in a great position, so that he can powershield getoff me moves and bait airdodges, racking up nice damage quickly. If wolf gets in the way he wants then Sonic is kinda at his mercy and will be forced to get out quickly, probably behind on %. Fighting thru Wolf's jabs and titls is not advised. Wolf takes away Sonics spin dash game well, but Sonic's movement options forces Wolf to play defensively, so they kind of limit each others offense (also, while Wolfs aerial mobility is good and helps him avoid counterattacks from Sonic, its not as effective offensively against him, as a simple read turns that aggressiveness into shield grabs, right into sonic's game plan). This compounds Sonic's main weakness and forces him to play slower paced, rely on heavy reads and his edgegaurding game for the kill, and while Wolf's KO moves are better that Sonic's, Sonic is heavy enough, agile enough, and his recovery is so good that it still requires a very good read.
both i believe have a good game plan against each other once they knock the other offstage too. Wolf is easier of the two to harass off stage, but if Sonic is forced to upB too soon hes is put in a very bad position too (obviously) when he tries to land.
There were plenty of times where a Wolf would get the life lead quickly, but in the end I was mobile enough to get the kill first, if just barely, and it almost always either involved the ledge or a crazy read, that, if failed, would get me dsmashed. Wolf can be frustrating to get around, but once I got in and started forcing wolf to airdodge, or attack/reflector as long as I stayed grounded i could answer all options by runnign to his landing spot and shielding, occasionally waiting for the sidestep. Rarely did I ever completely annihilate any wolf players, but I usually was comfortable with what was going to happen in the matchup.
so yeah, long wall of text, blah blah blah, slight advantage Wolf.
if seagull would be so kind as to comment on this i would be happy...
Sonic wants in so he can create offense through his follow-up/mixup game, and he does this through punishment opportnuities. but Wolf has the tools to zone him out, mainly with moves like bair. Sonic can avoid getting hit with bair but punishing a retreating bair isn't in his favor. It minimizes the ability to land a shield grab, which is one of sonics ways to open up his offense. Add to the fact that Wolf is better than sonic up close, and Sonic will end up spending a lot of time out side of bair/ ftilt range weaving and looking for any pattern to exploit, usually limiting his spin dashes, out side of cancels to bait reactions. he could counter poke with bair, but Wolf's is fasterm better for spacing than Sonic's. I try to place my self just about Wolfs forward smash range so that he has to move forward to hit me, and if I see it I can punish.
Wolf wants to get in to, so he can abuse he advantage over sonic in melee range, but the problem is that sonic is, well, too damn fast to react to. so he has to zone, and especially at the offset try to get sonic to come to him on his terms while being as safe as possible. the problem with that is, while his normals and tils are very good against Sonic, his laser isn't that great at forcing Sonic to approach recklessly (depending on the stage, its near useless). he must still rely primarily on zoning with aeirlas to defensively pressure sonic unil he can safely get in his face.
The issue that makes this even in my opinion is that someone has to make a move at some point, but it doesn't look like either can literally create a situation where they can get in with a significant advantage. someone has to take the risk. If Sonic calls it right, he goes into his mixup game and in my experience can put himself in a great position, so that he can powershield getoff me moves and bait airdodges, racking up nice damage quickly. If wolf gets in the way he wants then Sonic is kinda at his mercy and will be forced to get out quickly, probably behind on %. Fighting thru Wolf's jabs and titls is not advised. Wolf takes away Sonics spin dash game well, but Sonic's movement options forces Wolf to play defensively, so they kind of limit each others offense (also, while Wolfs aerial mobility is good and helps him avoid counterattacks from Sonic, its not as effective offensively against him, as a simple read turns that aggressiveness into shield grabs, right into sonic's game plan). This compounds Sonic's main weakness and forces him to play slower paced, rely on heavy reads and his edgegaurding game for the kill, and while Wolf's KO moves are better that Sonic's, Sonic is heavy enough, agile enough, and his recovery is so good that it still requires a very good read.
both i believe have a good game plan against each other once they knock the other offstage too. Wolf is easier of the two to harass off stage, but if Sonic is forced to upB too soon hes is put in a very bad position too (obviously) when he tries to land.
There were plenty of times where a Wolf would get the life lead quickly, but in the end I was mobile enough to get the kill first, if just barely, and it almost always either involved the ledge or a crazy read, that, if failed, would get me dsmashed. Wolf can be frustrating to get around, but once I got in and started forcing wolf to airdodge, or attack/reflector as long as I stayed grounded i could answer all options by runnign to his landing spot and shielding, occasionally waiting for the sidestep. Rarely did I ever completely annihilate any wolf players, but I usually was comfortable with what was going to happen in the matchup.
so yeah, long wall of text, blah blah blah, slight advantage Wolf.
if seagull would be so kind as to comment on this i would be happy...
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
Honestly, Sonic can't be in the air the entire match, Wolf's shine is too good. You want to Spikey-throw to spring u-air kill? You will get shine combo faired/upaired and die at 50%. Think you can get out of the range of effectiveness? Okay. Think about this. There have been times Trent would have thrown a back-air for what felt like a full minute before I threw a back-air. Mine hit. No trades. If he played as Wolf I would have been Beared into next week, but he plays Sonic. Wanna spin dash on the corner the entire match at picto-chat because I banned YI? I will jump over you and wait for you to move, if you don't, you'll get lasered, if you jump out at me, you'll get shined. If you move the opposite way, you'll get b-reverse lasered. Banning stages is illegal and you pick YI and you are going to jab me once, and run away the entire rest of the match? Good, I know the floor well enough so I can hit you with a laser and run away too.
Excel is right though, the shield button is sonics best friend. Grabs and baiting air-dodges into f-smash do work on occasion. Power-shield is pretty nice if the wolf just stands there and blasts, true. But if the wolf times his laser with jumping backwards/forwards and shoots right before he touches the ground, where's the lag? Also, if I know you are going to be shielding a lot, grabs are free too.
Excel is right though, the shield button is sonics best friend. Grabs and baiting air-dodges into f-smash do work on occasion. Power-shield is pretty nice if the wolf just stands there and blasts, true. But if the wolf times his laser with jumping backwards/forwards and shoots right before he touches the ground, where's the lag? Also, if I know you are going to be shielding a lot, grabs are free too.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
In His World was playing. No wonder you lost!
Sonic 100-0's everyone when his music is playing.
I don't understand that first paragraph at all. Looks like you are saying if the Sonic is repetitive and brainless, you will be able to read him?
What do you mean about knowing the floor?
When it comes to iSDR, its an invincible spindash that can still go into any of Sonic's aerials/specials and shield cancels sometimes. Jumping over him doesn't really help much if you don't punish him for it. Why try to do something fancy like shining perfectly through it or jumping over him when you can just jab it to stop him and then abuse your superior boxing game?
What do you mean about knowing the floor?
When it comes to iSDR, its an invincible spindash that can still go into any of Sonic's aerials/specials and shield cancels sometimes. Jumping over him doesn't really help much if you don't punish him for it. Why try to do something fancy like shining perfectly through it or jumping over him when you can just jab it to stop him and then abuse your superior boxing game?
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
Well, that goes without saying. I'm just saying Sonic is going to get shined if he EVER tries to attack in the air against a Wolf who knows this match-up. Baiting a missed Shine is about Sonics only shot if you try to take this to the air. If the wolf just jumps there and switches up how he throws his bairs (retreat, advance, stationary), sonic can't do a damn thing unless he's really good at PS-grabbing.
YI is good for sonic because projectiles just seem to miss him, other than like Pits arrows. Wolf can get to the lowest part of the floor, in the middle of the stage, and still shoot him with the laser.
No, that's a good idea...thanks, Wolf Sonic is now 100-0 in favor of Wolf now that I completely no longer fear sonics only means of damage. /topic
When are the Yoshi's and Samus's discussing the Wolf match-up, that would be fun, I actually know these 3 matchups like the back of my hand so I feel I can kinda help.
YI is good for sonic because projectiles just seem to miss him, other than like Pits arrows. Wolf can get to the lowest part of the floor, in the middle of the stage, and still shoot him with the laser.
I'm into the thrill of the chase, that's why.
No, that's a good idea...thanks, Wolf Sonic is now 100-0 in favor of Wolf now that I completely no longer fear sonics only means of damage. /topic
/troll
When are the Yoshi's and Samus's discussing the Wolf match-up, that would be fun, I actually know these 3 matchups like the back of my hand so I feel I can kinda help.
JayBee
Smash Champion
just because you shoot a laser at sonic while he's preping iSDR doesnt force him to come at you btw. his movement options are really diverse, and more often than not Wolf is probably giving up something if he just sits there waiting for it on the platform of yoshis, and doesn't have the lead. I usually will vsdj out of side B charge just to mix it up and show the opponent that my only option out of it isn't just to release the b button. Or I will just sit there, which I really dont mind doing anymore. plus I can spinshot and bair you for spamming lasers to much, so its not as reliable to stopping the whole strategy behind iSDR unless the sonic basically lets it.
btw, i do want to take stages into consideration in this matchup, because isdr and the hop of side B, (moreso the isdr because its easier) nullifies the slow lasers and forces wolf to play more grounded if he wished to counter it with his moves ( he can clank with it, but youre asking him to make a strong read considering spin dash's options pre-release.) and sonic can just escape pressure, he isnt' obligated to attack him at all many times.
Not saying that isdr is surefire win, but it helps a lot in the right hands.
btw, i do want to take stages into consideration in this matchup, because isdr and the hop of side B, (moreso the isdr because its easier) nullifies the slow lasers and forces wolf to play more grounded if he wished to counter it with his moves ( he can clank with it, but youre asking him to make a strong read considering spin dash's options pre-release.) and sonic can just escape pressure, he isnt' obligated to attack him at all many times.
Not saying that isdr is surefire win, but it helps a lot in the right hands.
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
MegaRobMan seems to have about as much sonic matchup knowledge as the commentators at WGF.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
afk @ this callout.
(ono)
JayBee
Smash Champion
LOL its funny because I rarely go for Up smash followups or punishes anymore, unless im fighting someone like DK, cause its too damn easy. dont know why i dont use it.
Mr. Johan
Smash Hero
lol, I don't use USmash as much either, except for the odd "Starting attack" in a match. The lack of damage made if it's DIed and the end lag dissuade me.
But, when I was playing Holms at Oh Snap, I found that my Dsmashing was effective. Sonic's hurtbox shifts during the move, and I think it's enough to crawl underneath a SH Bair's hitbox and punish if Wolf keeps advancing to you, and it seems to have more "priority" than Wolf's Fsmash, thought the odds of timing it to counter that fast attack are slim. Just something to think about, it could be an answer for punishing Wolf's landings.
But, when I was playing Holms at Oh Snap, I found that my Dsmashing was effective. Sonic's hurtbox shifts during the move, and I think it's enough to crawl underneath a SH Bair's hitbox and punish if Wolf keeps advancing to you, and it seems to have more "priority" than Wolf's Fsmash, thought the odds of timing it to counter that fast attack are slim. Just something to think about, it could be an answer for punishing Wolf's landings.
Repeating the question, lol.
D
Deleted member
Guest
He does decent on both of those stages. I actually like going to pictochat, but what is it that makes Sonic good there?
He has a trick on the slopes near the edges. It lets him do an invincible spindash that will go through anything that doesn't clink with spindashes. Basically all your aerials and specials will lose to spindash. The only way to "stop" him is you clash with spindash using a ground move or the right type of special (wolf doesn't have one).
That trick is possible alot of stages but on Yoshi's Island and Pictochat its from the main platform on both sides which can make it a decisive tool in any matchup. Especially vs a character that loves his aerials and specials.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Before I get started here, Id like to just put up my perspectives on the current conversation.
How the wolf mains view the sonic matchup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDnPyoypNDw
by the way, quick note, see at 1:20 where bair > shine
how sonic mains view the matchup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn_PahNorAw&feature=related
God what a hilarious video that was.
Speeds input on every matchup.
'Man I just dont see how sonic could win. sonic loses this matchup really bad.'
I played you at MLG columbus.
Our match was super duper close. you were at like 130%, and I was at 120%, last stock each, and you clipped me off the ledge with a down smash. Unless you were talking about playing people consistently, then thats ok.
Personally I think this matchup is dead even. Ive played some of the best wolf mains, and I play wolf myself as you can see from the vid i posted.
like others said its kinda hard for either character to start a chain, but at the same time its hard for each character to get out of the strings of the other. There isnt much gay shiz that either one could do to the other. so it basically boils down to having to out play the other guy.
sonic can mess up spacing easily so hes probably one of the easiest characters to powershieldgrab wolfs bairs with.
wolf really shouldnt be getting away with shooting more than 1 laser at a time against sonic. he is very fast and can close the distance in an instant between lasers.
wolf does have to be very very cautious of sonic offstage tho. among other tricks. i think f smash tilted down at the edge beats his side b to the ledge.
if wolf does go offstage, sonic should probably be grabbing the ledge to force wolf to recover onstage, and usually sonic can punish that.
dont try to cross up wolfs shield, up smash oos is a top tier punish option.
How the wolf mains view the sonic matchup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDnPyoypNDw
by the way, quick note, see at 1:20 where bair > shine
how sonic mains view the matchup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn_PahNorAw&feature=related
God what a hilarious video that was.
thats why im glad i got here so late.
LOL
Speeds input on every matchup.
'Man I just dont see how sonic could win. sonic loses this matchup really bad.'
That hurts.
I played you at MLG columbus.
Our match was super duper close. you were at like 130%, and I was at 120%, last stock each, and you clipped me off the ledge with a down smash. Unless you were talking about playing people consistently, then thats ok.
its a big stage for sonic to move around and be manuverable on. and sometimes the tranformations kill you so we dont have to.
Personally I think this matchup is dead even. Ive played some of the best wolf mains, and I play wolf myself as you can see from the vid i posted.
like others said its kinda hard for either character to start a chain, but at the same time its hard for each character to get out of the strings of the other. There isnt much gay shiz that either one could do to the other. so it basically boils down to having to out play the other guy.
sonic can mess up spacing easily so hes probably one of the easiest characters to powershieldgrab wolfs bairs with.
wolf really shouldnt be getting away with shooting more than 1 laser at a time against sonic. he is very fast and can close the distance in an instant between lasers.
wolf does have to be very very cautious of sonic offstage tho. among other tricks. i think f smash tilted down at the edge beats his side b to the ledge.
if wolf does go offstage, sonic should probably be grabbing the ledge to force wolf to recover onstage, and usually sonic can punish that.
dont try to cross up wolfs shield, up smash oos is a top tier punish option.