Sonic Matchup Export : Wolf

[Seagull Joe]

Before I get started here, Id like to just put up my perspectives on the current conversation.

How the wolf mains view the sonic matchup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDnPyoypNDw
by the way, quick note, see at 1:20 where bair > shine
how sonic mains view the matchup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn_PahNorAw&feature=related

LOOLL@using the 1 match out of 3 you won vs JJ on YI of all places .

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Goggles, I don't think the video of you vs JJ is a good representation for the match-up. First of all it's on one of Sonic's best CP stages [and not a really good one for Wolf] and second it's really old. Not just "old" but DAMN old ... that thing is almost a year and a half old and the Wolf metagame has changed a lot since then. With the exception of Semifer none of the successful Wolves have assumed JJ's fast, technical style but more a read- and groundbased game like Kain, AC, T, Holms and to some extent Seagull [although he tries hard to be like JJ ]. Not even saying he's playing bad or anything I just don't think that it shows how Wolves play in 2010 / 2011.

EDIT: lol Ninjad by Seagull ...

 

[da K.I.D.]

im not using it to describe the matchup. im using it to illustrate how each side is viewing the matchup.

as in sonics view the matchup as a really even game that goes back and forth alot (the game was really even until the end.)

and the wolfs view the matchup as, 'I can just do whatever the fk I want and get away with it'

I also note that you didnt say anythign about the match of me playing wolf against a kid who number 1. im a lot better at the game then. and 2. had never seen a wolf in brawl in his life before. Your bias is showing.

lastly, that set was just friendlies, it wasnt a huge deal, especially since i spent the entire FD match trying to side b thru lasers.

 

[Tenki]

Pretty sure he brought both vids up just to say that each group of mains both see the matchup as slightly better for our own characters than the the other thinks lol.

ex: if feels like a 6:4 Wolf:Sonic, Wolf mains feel it's 65:35, Sonic mains feel it's 55:45

edit
d'aw 2slow

 

[resTy]

Rob, you're my dude. That said, you're also wrong. You should be talking about the match-up, not how well YOU perform against Trent. Have an open mind to talk about the potential of each character in the match-up rather than talking about yourself the entire time. You aren't being helpful to the discussion as far as I've read. Try to be on the same topic as everybody else.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Rob, you're my dude. That said, you're also wrong. You should be talking about the match-up, not how well YOU perform against Trent. Have an open mind to talk about the potential of each character in the match-up rather than talking about yourself the entire time. You aren't being helpful to the discussion as far as I've read. Try to be on the same topic as everybody else.

I have the strong urge to sig this and link to it in every matchup discussion ever.

 

[JayBee]

boy, i like it when dudes like KID agree with my take on matchups it lets me know im not over my head or at least have an idea how to play this game lol. just to let you guys know, most of my Wolf experience came from Lykeos, a wolf player in fredericksburg va, back when i actually was in a crew, and he still played brawl

In brawl, "doing whatever you want" is almost never possible. the game is too much about reading the opponent, and you have to be aware of spacing in stages 3 or more times the size of a traditional fighting game, and are stages are more than cosmetic. So, no, wolf does not do what ever he wants against sonic, he has to work just as hard to get the ball rolling in his favor. just because you got a nice wall of bairs going, doesn't mean anything to me other than the opposite; you are more or less respecting my ability to f*ck up your whole strategy if you play offense haphazardly and you know it, so your keeping it safe. which is the smart thing to do. I mean, nearly this whole matchup is punishing mistakes in spacing, not one character pulling a metaknight on the other lol.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Damnit Tyser, I'm having fun

Seriously, your cousin Matt, Mushroomring, who is a pretty decent Sonic would tell you "Wolf's laser is a ***** and his Shine beats everything".

 

[JayBee]

wolf's aerial mobilty is what makes this matchup an issue becuase behind a bair like that he can retreat very safely. its a really good spacing tool. God, if sonic had something close to that.... well he does in brawl minus though.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty sure Wolf's ground game gives Sonic trouble as well. It's not just his mobility in the air that makes things hard for Sonic. The Blue Blur's lack of a projectile(lol spring) doesn't exactly help things, either.

 

[JayBee]

this is true. that's why it can be an issue because sonic needs to get in. Sonic gets in with a punish, and goes into his followup game, its advantage sonic until wolf gets out somehow. but wolf can retreat bair, and throw out a ground poke as a "just in case you thought about punishing my lag" move and be pretty safe outside of a dash in powershield grab by sonic. that's why its in wolfs advantage to be patient and wait for the sonic to make a mistake, than **** him up close as much as he can before sonic gets out.

 

[WedginatorX]

Damnit Tyser, I'm having fun

Seriously, your cousin Matt, Mushroomring, who is a pretty decent Sonic would tell you "Wolf's laser is a ***** and his Shine beats everything".

1. What the **** is a mushroomring? Decent for a random I suppose.

2. Yes, wolf's laser ***** sonics approaches.

3. I honestly don't see shine as much of a problem in this matchup.

 

[resTy]

1. What the **** is a mushroomring? Decent for a random I suppose.

A random Sonic main from Iowa. He's a relatively below average player. He's good enough to do well against locals but that's about it. Plays the game once every 3-5 months.

 

[WedginatorX]

Loool. Then why'd MRM try to make it out to be that he should be someone to ask about the matchup?
Derp.

 

[resTy]

Rob does that a lot. If you've beaten him or have gotten close, you're pretty amazing and for some reason worthy of note in his mind. Mushroomring is my cousin and I'm just keeping it real. Anyways, I'm gonna stop bothering this thread as I'm going against my own post about staying on topic >.< Bye.

 

[Deleted member]

Can't Wolf just shine out of Sonic's followups?

 

[Trillion]

Why does it sound like Wolf mains think that shine = win button?

Shine has to be timed correctly if it's going to hit and not just be a regular reflector. Sonic is not forced to always use the exact same timing on his follow ups where you just go "lolol can't let you do that Star Fox Hedgehog *shine*" That would be like saying "can't Wolf just air dodge and never get hit?".

 

[MegaRobMan]

Loool. Then why'd MRM try to make it out to be that he should be someone to ask about the matchup?
Derp.

Because obviously my opinion doesn't matter even though my most recent matches against Trent, a top 10 Sonic in the world, have been kinda lopsided (before and after he retired), so I figured I'd name drop a pokeyman nerd who is average because they say the exact same things. Trent is still a really good player and a lot it has to do with Wolfs utter destruction of Sonic.

Can't Wolf just shine out of Sonic's followups?

LOL yes.

Why does it sound like Wolf mains think that shine = win button?

Shine has to be timed correctly if it's going to hit and not just be a regular reflector. Sonic is not forced to always use the exact same timing on his follow ups where you just go "lolol can't let you do that Star Fox Hedgehog *shine*" That would be like saying "can't Wolf just air dodge and never get hit?".

If Wolf air-dodges against Sonic, he's going to get hit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AD/Shine is not a true combo.

Against characters with laggy start up moves that are easily telegraphed, wolfs shine is awesome. Sonic's bair takes 5 years to start up, shined into F-air. Sonics Fair hits multiple times, SDI-Shine, jumpshine, land and blaster. If you want to mix up this move and throw it early so it hits with the last part, Shined. So if you want to only fight Wolf vertically in the air, GL. If sonic had a good Dair that we couldn't shine/side B, this match up might be harder.

How does sonic kill? Baiting a spot-dodge into a slightly charged F-smash? Bait air-dodge into bair? D-throw to spring jump to U-air?

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't say shine=win. You got to understand that shine has 9 frames of invincibility and a hit box, and it can save him from a lot of aerial attacks when timed right. I did this against M2K whenever he tried to fair or uair me when I was coming back on stage, and 75% of the time, I broke through his aerials with that move alone.

So yeah, shine isn't something to be underestimated.

 

[JayBee]

Can't Wolf just shine out of Sonic's followups?

shine is best in the sonic matchup to prevent aerial followups, but its not as effective if he stays on the ground. remember that sonic is a punisher by nature, so in that sense after the first or second attempt itll be baited and punished for most of the round. this isn't really a player specific tendancy; sonic's playstyle demands this. like i said before unfortunately most of your options if he gets you in the air will get punished mostly by running up and shielding. The good news is that wolf limits that chance to occur pretty well if played defensively. retreating bairs are way safer agasint sonic if hes on the ground, for example.

Now if Sonic haphazardly goes in the air, then you can tag him with your aerials and you should be okay, then you can basically do the same thing back at him, though Sonic better at escaping pressure than wolf IMO.


Sonic is a punisher megarob. the most common tactic is to bait ant punish. you are putting yourself into so much risk and so much pressure if you rely on punishing one the most unpredictable characters with that move. think about it. yes, it could work, and you will get some to hit every once in a while if you are good, but what would that have to mean? you'd have to guess exactly when he will attack all the time to pull this off. If you have yomi and reaction time that awesome, you'd never lose to anyone ever. that is why most people rely on zoning with disjointed aerials to begin with against sonic. its easier, and helps make up for how stupid sonic's ground mobility is. not how I say "ground" btw.

like all spacies, wolf is vulnerable to harassment offstage, and sideB is 99% used in all recoveries by the star fox characters. this is how sonic will usually get his chance to kill you, in case you didn't know, and early gimps that can occur help make up for his lack of reliable kill moves, which you as wolf have.

 

[Trillion]

If Wolf air-dodges against Sonic, he's going to get hit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AD/Shine is not a true combo.

Against characters with laggy start up moves that are easily telegraphed, wolfs shine is awesome. Sonic's bair takes 5 years to start up, shined into F-air. Sonics Fair hits multiple times, SDI-Shine, jumpshine, land and blaster. If you want to mix up this move and throw it early so it hits with the last part, Shined. So if you want to only fight Wolf vertically in the air, GL. If sonic had a good Dair that we couldn't shine/side B, this match up might be harder.

How does sonic kill? Baiting a spot-dodge into a slightly charged F-smash? Bait air-dodge into bair? D-throw to spring jump to U-air?

You are making the mistake of assuming that we always have to follow up the exact same way.

For example: If I upthrow Wolf, you can't just shine right away to avoid my follow up. I can short hop bair, i can short hop up air, i can short hop fair, i can shield grab your landing, I can dash away and spin shot > spring > dair, I can up tilt , I can try to space a downtilt, i can homing attack, i could hop and make it look like im going to do an aerial and then just land and grab or do a homing attack, i could hop back and do an aerial spin, or i could use the forward b and time it so that i get the hop's invincibility frames as you fall back toward me, the list goes on. I have a bajillion options and shine does not automatically account for all of them and further requires you to time it properly even if you DO manage to correctly predict which follow up that I will choose.


On top of that, I'm pretty sure in one of KID's videos he demonstarted that even if you can correctly predict bair and time it correctly, our bair can still be spaced to outreach your shine.

Sonic can kill without HAVING to bait you into making a mistake. It IS our favorite way since it nets us earlier kills, but it can still be done even without baiting you, it's just harder. A bair, a forward smash, a down smash, spring gimps (not extremely viable or widely used, but more viable on wolf than other characters.), spring > up air kills such as after an up throw, fair can interrupt and hit fox and falco through their illusions if timed correctly, and while I can not say for sure, I believe that this should hold true for Wolf as well.

 

[Trillion]

I didn't say shine=win. You got to understand that shine has 9 frames of invincibility and a hit box, and it can save him from a lot of aerial attacks when timed right. I did this against M2K whenever he tried to fair or uair me when I was coming back on stage, and 75% of the time, I broke through his aerials with that move alone.

So yeah, shine isn't something to be underestimated.

Yeah, i don't mean just you. It's just that I keep hearing so much talk about Wolf's shine in this thread and I keep being confused about how so much of the discussion keeps sounding like "Sonic has this, but Wolf has SHINE." Because it just makes me be like ...what? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure shine has legit uses in every match up and in this one too. However, Sonic survives on having variety and having mind games and you will likely find that shine will work sometimes, but will fail more often than succeed and should not be relied on as your primary counter. Consider the details in my above post in regards specifically to follow ups for example.


It is incredibly important to any match up discussion involving Sonic to recognize that the term mindgames applies to Sonic in a different way than any other character. Sonic has tools that provide the means of CREATING mindgames unlike other characters.

Sonic = Speed + 1000 moves that all look mostly the same to the untrained eye (and even the trained eye) + cancels or variations to all of those moves + weird hitboxes

 

[Tesh]

Does jumpshine combo into anything? I don't see it possible could. It does like 3 damage and doesn't combo into anything?

That just doesn't sound even remotely scary.

 

[_Kain_]

Does jumpshine combo into anything? I don't see it possible could. It does like 3 damage and doesn't combo into anything?

That just doesn't sound even remotely scary.

It's not supposed to be scary...

It's meant to give us invincibility jumping up (possibly hitting you) and stopping you from following us and letting us reset our position in our favor

And now you guys are stepping into theorucraft which is never good cause both can play that game. Cool you can read shine, guess what we can possibly read whatever you do to that's player dependent. Mindgames shouldn't play part in MU discussion cause that is all player dependent

 

[Trillion]

And now you guys are stepping into theorucraft which is never good cause both can play that game. Cool you can read shine, guess what we can possibly read whatever you do to that's player dependent. Mindgames shouldn't play part in MU discussion cause that is all player dependent

This whole chunk of stuff is all UBER wrong and it displays that you have a failed understanding of Sonic. This is not uncommon and you share the company of many non-sonic players. Mindgames DO play a part in MU discussion when it comes to Sonic because they are NOT strictly player dependant. As I explained above, there is a difference between mindgame discussion and Sonic's potential for mindgames because his very nature is that he has the unique quality of having mindgame producing traits. Each character has a certain run speed, or air speed, or multiple jumps or chain grabs, etc. A trait of Sonic's is that he has mindgame POTENTIAL due to his unique characteristics. These things are 100% necessary to account for in ANY discussion about Sonic because it is such a core attribute.

 

[Deleted member]

::facepalms::

Wolf can lightstep.

MINDGAMES.

Seriously...you can't account for mindgaming potential in a MU discussion like Kain just said. Don't kid yourself.

 

[JayBee]

one reason many people didn't "understand the matchup" against sonic is because they do not take into account what MM kinda was getting at, and focus a matchup analysis only on a move-per-move comparison. Sonic's strength isn't really how well his moves beat other moves. once people understand what his real strengths are then, they can figure out how to properly beat him. I know I'm not theorycrafting.

 

[_Kain_]

This whole chunk of stuff is all UBER wrong and it displays that you have a failed understanding of Sonic. This is not uncommon and you share the company of many non-sonic players. Mindgames DO play a part in MU discussion when it comes to Sonic because they are NOT strictly player dependant. As I explained above, there is a difference between mindgame discussion and Sonic's potential for mindgames because his very nature is that he has the unique quality of having mindgame producing traits. Each character has a certain run speed, or air speed, or multiple jumps or chain grabs, etc. A trait of Sonic's is that he has mindgame POTENTIAL due to his unique characteristics. These things are 100% necessary to account for in ANY discussion about Sonic because it is such a core attribute.

Every character has mindgame potential. For a mindgame to work the player has to fall for it. Say you uthrow me. You are set on baiting me to AD so you can bair me by looking like your going to uair me. If I don't AD your mindgame fails. Anyone who says mindgames are not player dependent is dumb. Sonic has lots of resets but nothing players can't react too. You saying that these things are guaranteed to land is what is wrong. Mindgames play a part in both MU's

 

[Deleted member]

Fine then. Go play Fonz. His Ganondorf will mindgame you into losing, and look where he is on the tier list?

Edit: Sniped by da bess Wofl.

Also, I'd like to note that I hate it when people talk about potential as a reasoning to why a character is good. Potential is the same bull that boosted both Pit and Fox on the tier lists. It's theorycrafting at its worst.

 

[Trillion]

::facepalms::

Wolf can lightstep.

MINDGAMES.

Seriously...you can't account for mindgaming potential in a MU discussion like Kain just said. Don't kid yourself.

Not the same thing.

 

[Deleted member]

That was an example of something that Wolf can do to mindgame people with. It was a counter to your argument of Sonic's mindgaming "potential".

It doesn't matter anyway, because this whole point is moot.

 

[JayBee]

i understand what the wolf players are saying. this is true. I think I didn't say it the way I wanted to so ill try again. there seems to be confusion about mindgames and sonic too, so here i go...

One of sonic's strengths is numerous options out of moves that are similar. This can create the POTENTIAL for a player to use this in mindgames but this is fickle. WHY? because the application of your mindgames vary too greatly from person to person, match to match, and requires you to really be paying attention to the opponents tendancies and yours. In the end, something as flimsy like this isn't why Sonic is not a solid mid tier character. hell, everyone has mindgames, so what? do not confuse Sonic's many options, and his mindgame potential as the same thing, it is not, but players use his many options to create mindgames so much so its understandable why people would say that sometimes.

This matchup isn't strong advantage for wolf, even though he has better melee options, because when sonic goes into his follow up game, his sheer number of options inherently will create scenarios where wolf's shine, and aerials will not let him escape, so long as sonic stays grounded. Sonic can and has shown the ability to continue to rack damage this way, and lead characters off the edge, where Sonic's best chance to mitagate his KO power weakness, and take advantage of wolfs fall speed and linear recovery present themselves best. This helps even things out, but it doesn't make the matchup even because wolf's moveset can wall him decent enough for him to get few chances, while slowing his ground mobilty with occasional lasers. sonic can't fight him directly in the air outside of a very well spaced counter attack, which is the main problem because they both want to get in.

 

[Browny]

 

[Trillion]

Every character has mindgame potential. For a mindgame to work the player has to fall for it. Say you uthrow me. You are set on baiting me to AD so you can bair me by looking like your going to uair me. If I don't AD your mindgame fails. Anyone who says mindgames are not player dependent is dumb. Sonic has lots of resets but nothing players can't react too. You saying that these things are guaranteed to land is what is wrong. Mindgames play a part in both MU's

First, I want to say, it sounds like you guys think I'm dissing you, so just in case, I want to make sure to say that that's not my aim. I'm sure you're each intelligent people who are good at Brawl. I don't mean for my posts to sound like an attack if they are. I tend to have to repeat most of this same stuff in most MUs, so my frustration at the misunderstandings about Sonic might be showing through. Sorry if that's the case.

Can you quote where I said that Sonic has a guaranteed anything? I don't mean to say that we have anything guaranteed (it would be pretty stupid if Sonic could up throw you and have a guaranteed combo). Next, I think you are combining multiple things that I said into one thing that skews what I am trying to talk about and I think there is confusion (this probably is my fault so no worries)

First, my airdodge example was a satirical joke. If you airdodge an attack you can't be hit, so just airdodge forever and you can't lose right? Airdodging repeatedly nonstop obviously will not mean that Sonic will never land a hit on you, that's purely absurd. So, I was trying to draw a comparison between that and saying that Shine trumps anything Sonic could ever follow up with.

Next, yes, mind games are 100% player dependent. It's what separates good players from great players, M2K's MK from Joe Schmoe's MK. Sonic has a lot of mindgame potential due to the characteristics of his moves.

Side - B, can be released like normal (after various charging times that change the speed of the roll), can be shield cancelled before it is fully charged (into whatever options you can imagine), can be released in such a way that we jump straight vertical with a hitbox, can be released so that we spin shot (jump instantly at a 35-ish degree angle), etc. Further, it also looks almost exactly like the down b, for which almost all of these same things apply.

Down - b, can be shield cancelled when landing from the air onto the ground. The down b, can be done straight out of a full dash after being charged only once, which makes it look quite a lot like a dash attack, except, (SURPRISE) we can jump while still in that ball and follow the direction we hit you in.

Sonic's downsmash can be charged and to the untrained eye, appears to be simply the charging of a spin dash.

Sonic's speed combined with his dash dance pivot can create potential for all sorts of things. Example, I fox trot in, you shield expecting to shield grab some attack, I dash out and dash dance pivot a forward smash when you drop it to grab. This same situation can apply to any character of course, but when Sonic's speed is added, it goes to a whole new level especially when we combine it with all the spin stuff listed above.


The thing about Sonic is not so much that he has mindgames. As you guys have pointed out, all characters have mindgames, even Ganondorf. However, it's the properties of Sonic (especially his speed) and the properties of his attacks (like being able to cancel his spins) and the very fact that his stuff even looks so much alike that gives us the ability to create mindgames in such a way that other characters can not. It is not just simply that Sonic players can use mindgames. I wouldn't try to argue that Sonic players use mindgames and non-Sonics don't have mindgames. It's the capacity for mindgames that result from Sonic's traits that allow Sonic players to create mindgames in a different way than non-Sonics. Does this make sense or does it still seem like I'm not saying anything different from before? I'm trying to communicate this idea, but I think I'm failing at it.

 

[Tenki]

Does this make sense or does it still seem like I'm not saying anything different from before? I'm trying to communicate this idea, but I think I'm failing at it.

:/ it's treading the line.

I only really bring up cancels and low-commitment 'approach' if someone tries to treat something cancellable as though it were a given (ex: imagine if they talked about how easy it is to edgeguard Sonic's recovery and only bring up spring>d-air lol)

As far as lasers go, as long as you're not trying to spam spindash, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. If you're within half of FD length away, Wolf has like, 1 safe laser that you can shield/pshield before you get in range to actually counter something.

Back to the matchup discussion,

if I'm a Wolf, how should I play vs Sonic? (srs question though, I want my friend to be able to beat me lol)

if I'm Sonic, how should I play vs Wolf?

 

[Tesh]

The reason I noted that it isn't scary is because a couple of Wolf's said it would stop approaches. If its not scary, the odds aren't really in your favor as far as risk/reward. 3 damage is not much at all for the risk you take if you guessed wrong. Shine has 1-6 invincibility leading up toa frame 7-14 hitbox with about 15ish frames of cooldown. The invincibility doesn't really matter much when dealing with Sonic. This isn't DDD or Falco chaingrabbing you, or some fastfaller **** string. Sonic's "combos" and follow ups are mostly just putting you in a tough spot and watching what you do. If your best option to escape these situations is doing 3 damage and a potential reset, its a losing situation. Considering that if you are wrong, you could get hit by pretty much anything.

Consider other useful moves for stopping Sonic like DDD's grab, Shuttle Loop, Marth's Fair, MK/Ness/Peach Nair. They do alot of damage and/or lead into other things. This helps you turn the tables and take back what you lost.

A reset isn't that good if you jumped into the air to push Sonic away a little. Thats basically where he wanted you anyway.

There is a difference between theorycraft/mindgames and listing options. You can look at Ganondorf and see how many things he doesn't have an option for. Then you can look at Sonic and see he has alot of options for one situation. That isn't theorycraft.

I'd also like the to reitterate that treating shine like the perfect solution to everything won't get you anywhere. If every Wolf literally could perfectly time shines through everything, he would soundly beat every character in the game. Lets say sonic deals with pressure the same way. If we are being combo'd by Wolf, we can airdodge PERFECTLY the moment he was going to attack with frame 5-13 moves.

The trouble with writing off Sonic's kill moves as slow and therefore useless is the range they have. Spotdodging isn't the only way you get hit by Fsmash or Bair. Jabbing, shining, dsmashing, bairing at the wrong times or places lead to the same thing. The difference between Sonic and Ganondorf here is that Sonic also has fast moves that he will use the majority of the time. If you sit around waiting until you can see Bair or Fsmash coming out, you leave yourself open to things you can't react to. THAT is exactly the power behind Sonic. There is a certain point when he runs toward you that you HAVE to choose something or risk getting hit for free. There is no waiting for the perfect moment to shine everything. Not to mention if you jumpshine Sonic 4 out of 5 times, he still gets more out of the 1 time he hits you apparently (unless you have jumpshine setups?)

Lets not get too sidetracked with the little things just yet though.

Browny, if you think this is bad, wait til we get to the Sheik matchup.

 

[_Kain_]

The reason I noted that it isn't scary is because a couple of Wolf's said it would stop approaches. If its not scary, the odds aren't really in your favor as far as risk/reward. 3 damage is not much at all for the risk you take if you guessed wrong. Shine has 1-6 invincibility leading up toa frame 7-14 hitbox with about 15ish frames of cooldown. The invincibility doesn't really matter much when dealing with Sonic. This isn't DDD or Falco chaingrabbing you, or some fastfaller **** string. Sonic's "combos" and follow ups are mostly just putting you in a tough spot and watching what you do. If your best option to escape these situations is doing 3 damage and a potential reset, its a losing situation. Considering that if you are wrong, you could get hit by pretty much anything.

Consider other useful moves for stopping Sonic like DDD's grab, Shuttle Loop, Marth's Fair, MK/Ness/Peach Nair. They do alot of damage and/or lead into other things. This helps you turn the tables and take back what you lost.

A reset isn't that good if you jumped into the air to push Sonic away a little. Thats basically where he wanted you anyway.

There is a difference between theorycraft/mindgames and listing options. You can look at Ganondorf and see how many things he doesn't have an option for. Then you can look at Sonic and see he has alot of options for one situation. That isn't theorycraft.

I'd also like the to reitterate that treating shine like the perfect solution to everything won't get you anywhere. If every Wolf literally could perfectly time shines through everything, he would soundly beat every character in the game. Lets say sonic deals with pressure the same way. If we are being combo'd by Wolf, we can airdodge PERFECTLY the moment he was going to attack with frame 5-13 moves.

The trouble with writing off Sonic's kill moves as slow and therefore useless is the range they have. Spotdodging isn't the only way you get hit by Fsmash or Bair. Jabbing, shining, dsmashing, bairing at the wrong times or places lead to the same thing. The difference between Sonic and Ganondorf here is that Sonic also has fast moves that he will use the majority of the time. If you sit around waiting until you can see Bair or Fsmash coming out, you leave yourself open to things you can't react to. THAT is exactly the power behind Sonic. There is a certain point when he runs toward you that you HAVE to choose something or risk getting hit for free. There is no waiting for the perfect moment to shine everything. Not to mention if you jumpshine Sonic 4 out of 5 times, he still gets more out of the 1 time he hits you apparently (unless you have jumpshine setups?)

Lets not get too sidetracked with the little things just yet though.

Browny, if you think this is bad, wait til we get to the Sheik matchup.

Jumpshine isn't punishable when used correctly though? Idk if your confused on the concept of how it works cause that's what it seems like to me. Then you say Marth's Fair gives Sonic trouble when Wolf's bair is basically the...same...thing. And he can bair on the way down after a Jumpshine. Last post like I said experience is better than theorycraft, it only goes so far. Especially when some parties have very little knowledge on what they are discussing exactly

 

[Trillion]

Jumpshine isn't punishable when used correctly though? Idk if your confused on the concept of how it works cause that's what it seems like to me. Then you say Marth's Fair gives Sonic trouble when Wolf's bair is basically the...same...thing. And he can bair on the way down after a Jumpshine. Last post like I said experience is better than theorycraft, it only goes so far. Especially when some parties have very little knowledge on what they are discussing exactly

Dude your saying your foot is the same as a sword. Which party is it that has very little knowledge?

 

[_Kain_]

Dude your saying your foot is the same as a sword. Which party is it that has very little knowledge?

You because it is the same. Okay it extends his hurtbox but what move do you have that's fast enough to get in a hit? None, only your bair can trade with it maybe and your bair isn't basically on par with his. You deal with it the same way as Marth's fair. Properly spaced it's hard to deal with. Same as Marth

 

[Goldenadept]

wolf players: you can't use mindgames when discussing MU's they're player dependant and reflect the players skill not the characters

sonic players: but sonic only has mindgames

conclusion: sonic loses against all characters 60:40 unless the sonic main is just "that" good



about shine... its less useful against sonic than it is against other characters but in the air (cool down on the ground is longer) is has a decent margin of error, if sonic attacks as its starting up the move goes through the invincibility, slightly after that sonic gets hit by the hitbox, after that though the wolf gets hit.
seeing as sonic doesnt have disjoints (does he? i'm talking medium size disjoint) there's a large chance that shine will beat out all of his moves, even a spaced bair since his hurtbox will touch the shine.

follow ups that shine has in the air is bair is you're pretty far up and if you're close to the ground then shine>jab.

its not a be all end all move but its not supposed to be, its supposed to stop approaches and strings.

sonic attacks, wolf shines, sonic gets hit takes 3% wolf uses his mobility to move backwards and the situation is reset, sonic isnt close to wolf and wolf can shoot lasers.