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Squirtle Tactical Discussion

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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Grab releasing with Squirtle

Grab releasing is a really underused feature in Brawl. Grab releasing any character gives you a 1 frame advantage, this is because you can't buffer while being grab released and the game needs 1 frame to read your input.
Now, why would I make a longish post about this with Squirtle? Well, Squirtle has a strange grab release animation, cutting away ANOTHER frame, giving him a +2 advantage!

So basicly, this is what happens:
Squirtle grabs X
Squirtle pummels X 'til he releases (ground release)
While X is still in the animation, Squirtle can already move for 2 frames.

With Squirtle's boxing game, this is really excellent. Any character who MAINLY use moves slower than frame 3 can be regrabbed. I'm saying mainly because they obviously don't know about Squirtle's grab releasing qualities. But, when it all comes down to it, you have Squirtle with a 2 frame advantage, which is amazing.
Squirtle's fastest options are jab (frame1), ftilt (frame 3), dtilt/dash attack (frame 5) and grab (6 frames). Now grab has super armor on frame6, so that's cool.
Dtilt/dash attack isn't all that good, so let's ignore it for now.
For the characters without a 3frame move, you can read their roll/spotdodge and punish accordingly, if they walk away, a ftilt is guarenteed.
Even for characters like Marth/Jiggs, you can punish their only escape option if you read it. Marth you can even punish if you do get hit by upb, so it's pretty cool.
Other characters can be read too, considering that you have a shield and a large grab range. You severely limit options because you have 2 frames advantage and often a positional advantage. You also have a 1frame jab, 3frame ftilt and a 6frame grab. Use iiiit.
 

typh

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that's cool and all but sometimes i think about why i would do a 6% ftilt or risk maybe getting a 15% smash attack if you read correctly instead of just throwing for a guaranteed 10% and a refresh on my other moves
 

typh

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i havent played a single game in months and this question haunts me in my sleep

it's 3:51 and i've been thinking about squirtle grab options since about midnight

my psychiatrist says i shouldn't rely so much on squirtle and to work on my charizard and then he told me to smell him later and he walked across the bridge and disappeared and theni fought 6 team rocket members and got a nugget. what do i do with this nugget its only worth 5000 yen which is like 60 dollars and i dont think it was worth all my trouble to get 60 dollars especially since my insurance copay for the pokemon center is like 20 which leaves me with 40 dollars and now i'm dead tired and need to get a hotel room for the night before i fight misty which will cost me money that i didn't have in the first place. so basically i just broke even today

and on second thought i don't think that was my psychiatrist
 

T-block

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Yes, we considered Jigglypuff's Rest. It will make the grab miss, but Squirtle doesn't even get close to being hit by Rest (the hitbox is pathetic lol) - so after that you can do whatever the hell you want to her.

typh, why throw when you can regrab pummel and then throw?
 

Steeler

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typh, why throw when you can CATCH???? :yeahboi:

~everything in this post assumes that frame data scattered around SWF is correct...~

anyways the point is that squirtle is at a slight advantage in that position and with a correct read it can lead to some extra damage...sometimes it's not worth it, sometimes it may be worthwhile to try it. it's just a mix-up.

we need to find how long squirtle's whiffed grab duration lasts. i believe it is 29 frames, simply based on how squirtle seems to have a "standard" grab (hits on frame 6, isn't a tether, etc) and how other similar grabs, such as falco, luigi, and jiggs, have 6 frame grabs that end on frame 29. it's just a guess, but it's going to be in that ballpark.

peach and bowser can't back roll to avoid the grab (peach can jab/sidestep/f-roll)

mk and bowser can't forward roll to avoid the grab (mk can dtilt/ftilt/shuffle loop/sidestep/b-roll/go die in a fire)

bowser's spot dodge lasts 3 frames longer than squirtle's grab if my hunch above is correct (so 5 frame disadvantage considering squirtle's 2 frame grab release advantage). dedede's is 2 frames shorter than squirtle's grab, so assuming perfect timing, dedede would probably be able to spotdodge the grab and then shield an immediate jab afterward. everyone else has either a 2 (by far the most common), 4, or 5 frame advantage in that situation.

poor bowser. it seems like whirling fortress is his ONLY option, AT ALL, against a regrab. all of his dodges are too slow to even come out and his fastest other attack is jab at frame 6.* so basically it's an issue of predicting whether he up-b's or not. if he does, shield it and grab or chase with a dash grab...if not, just grab. but if you mess up, you will take more damage than you would have dealt.

to think, how many shenanigans bowser would succumb to if he didn't have that frame 1 invincible move.

*as a side note, fortress also hits on frame 6 and is invincible frames 1-5, so you can grab armor it (similar to bullet seed, unlike, say, poopy shuttle loop or dolphin slash), although you'll most likely miss since they can vary their timing and you have to input the grab on that exact same frame.

with the characters that can walk away...i think you can hold the stick toward the character for a frame or two and then grab. since you can buffer the walk, it's not going to change the timing on your end at all, i don't think.

also lol ziggy
 

Zigsta

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Yeah, Bowsers hardly ever spotdoge for that reason. When it doubt, spin it out.

Also, I wouldn't GR Bowser with Squirtle. If you mess up, you may get grabbed by Bowser, which is gonna do a lot more damage than Squirtle could do out of GR.
 

@TKbreezy

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so Like...I did pretty bad at MLG but I did 2 stock this fox with squirtle

and 6 stock a team in doubles...lol
 

TheReflexWonder

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This hydrojab stuff with Kith--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIa1FKyiTAs

I\'ve been practicing this lately. After watching both of his videos, I noticed that he was (accidentally, I think) doing U-Tilts instead of jabs; he seems to hold the analog stick 45 degrees up when he does it. This seems more helpful, as when I do it downward and mess up, I get a D-Tilt, which isn\'t so safe. U-Tilt hits on frame 1-4, rather than jab\'s single frame of hitting (which realistically doesn\'t hit from a hydrojab) and only lasts one more frame. Perhaps the command could be tweaked to pull off U-Tilts instead; might be more useful.
 

T-block

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Yep, Kith said he has the control stick at 45 degrees up for that exact reason. I think he also said he does the u-tilt intentionally sometimes. It's definitely a better way of doing things... I can't think of a reason to point it down - it helps your DI if you're hit out of it too.
 

DanGR

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Think I just did two b-airs in one short hop. Anyone else ever do that?

Also, what are the uses for short hop->upair->falling second aerial? If anyone in my town played D3 or Snake I think I could practice shield pressuring from behind with it or something.
 

Zigsta

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I dig upair to nair. Since nair autocancels, it's an easy way to go to jab, ftilt, or grab.
 

TheReflexWonder

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What about the distance? I know it won't be much but you might never know what situation you land in.
99.9% of the time, you either won't have the time to use Water Gun (because you didn't get much vertical distance to begin with) or pushing the opponent away via Water Gun toward the stage will be more useful.

The option is there, but Squirtle's horizontal aerial mobility is so good that you'll almost never need the push, and when you do, you're probably too low to recover after a Water Gun, anyway.
 

Tesh

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I think that only worked because nana is brain dead. Looked pretty close though.
 

T-block

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I've practiced ISJR for Squirtle's d-air... seems all right. Definitely worth learning if you have the time to spare.

I don't find it easier than Zard's though. One of these days I'm going to go into frame advance and figure out the exact frame timings for ISJR.
 

Buuda

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Hey, everyone. I've been inactive on here for a few months. Probably not one of my better ideas. XD

Anyhow, two things:

1) I'm gonna sound like a scrub, but what does ISRJ stand for? Intelligently sleek... uh.... Rasta-Jousting?

2) I know I'm a little late on the gimping Snake discussion, but I've done this a lot, and it works:
*You have to do this at the opening of the match. In other words, Snake has to be @ 0% when you start*
Option One:
1) F-throw>F-throw (second one will have to throw him off the edge, so start close to it.)
2) Snake will fall slightly below the ledge; he's too heavy and doesn't get knocked upwards too much by the second F-throw. This means he has to jump or Cypher (Snake won't Cypher since he's basically under the stage).
3) After (and if) Snake jumps, poke him. Jab him once, and that will cause him to fall. He now no longer has his second jump, and must rely on his Cypher only.
4) Be a jerk and aerial him repeatedly further away from the stage as he tries to use his cypher.
5) Use Water Gun when he tries to recover with C4. This will make him miss.

Option Two:

1)F-throw>F-throw (Again, close to the edge so that he's off by the second one)
2)If the Snake does Cypher to try to get back on (which he shouldn't, and is an idiot for doing so if he does), grab release him, and then Water Gun when he tries to use his C4.
3) Win.


I'm not the only player here who's done this, right? It's pretty good.
 

TheReflexWonder

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The last time Kismet and I teamed, he was "MIX". We still have "DD", "BULKY" and "ELE" to go through.
 

StarGalaxy777

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Do you have diffretn one for diff button mapping

thinking:Oh crap the mighty Reflex is talking to me >_>.....I think
 

TheReflexWonder

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Do you have diffretn one for diff button mapping

thinking:Oh crap the mighty Reflex is talking to me >_>.....I think
I used to; when I played Lucas, I used to have X set to Special (for Zap Jumping), but, now, I try to keep them all the same (I set my R to Attack; I can't DACUS otherwise).

And, really, I'm not so special, but it's nice to think.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Elemence is just special Salamence iirc.... Fire Blast/Hydro Pump/Dragon Claw/filler special or something.
Correct. They used the nickname for Special-based Salamence in third gen, at least (my "serious" days of competitive Pokémon). Because Salamence does so much with his physical stuff these days (and because Choice Specs didn't exist in third gen), it's almost unheard of now, but it's still a neat throwback.
 

Ingoro

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I love hydro pumping mence, first time I saw I was like... lol wut? Besides that, Kith plays with lv100 tag right? I like that one. a cheesy one would be "Uber"
 

TheReflexWonder

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I was thinking about taking it a step further and having "UberM" and "ensch" as the team tag.
 
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