Stereotypes continually insist Wario is Low-Bottom Tier

[Illussionary]

Everytime I see a personal tier Wario is always bottom or low tier. It makes me sick how ignorant people can be, just because Wario has a different playstyle then any other character.

Discuss

 

[3GOD]

Everytime I see a personal tier Wario is always bottom or low tier. It makes me sick how ignorant people can be, just because Wario has a different playstyle then any other character.

Discuss

Yes he is extremely underrated by many people because his range is not as good as the sword wielding characters. However, he has the best aerial game of anyone in my opinion. This combined with his unique moveset allows him to be played VERY unpredictably.

It’s rumored that this unpredictable character will give birth to a form of martial arts that other characters cannot even see.

Too funny, and yet strangely true! Wario alone is special...

Seriously, he has tons of potential from the mental aspect of the game. His range is his main limitation, but it can be overcome pretty well in most situations.

Positives
+Weight
+Power
+Edge guarding a la Jigglypuff
+Mobile projectile wall (the Bike)
++Recovery
++Insane aerial movement
++Unpredictable

Negatives
--Poor range
-Slow running speed
-No projectile (not counting Bike parts)

Honestly, what other downsides does he really have?

 

[Doctor Destructo]

Hey, it's their loss if they're unwilling to accept Wario's superior abilities. They can spend all their time training to find the perfect strategies against good Ikes or Marths or R.O.B.s, and be unprepared for the unleashed fury that is Wario's head, spinning around upside down like a drill.

In my book, Wario is OLYMPUS TIER.

P.S. Wario has the second fewest counter-pick characters, he's only behind Wolf.

 

[Antiwhitman]

I think a lot of people back away from him because well his persona is a bit different. So many characters in the roster are valiant and heroic, or sinister and very visibly evil. Wario is just a jerk. He just procrastinates all day, makes a mess of everything, doesn't care about anyone, and makes all of his money by pushing out mindless minigames. (He's exactly like Nintendo. Zing!)

Of course, anyone who can appreciate humor should be able to appreciate Wario's uh...style.

Also first post, hello world!

 

[Paxz]

wow serius deep stuff here, i just played wario cuz i always hated mario, and when i first saw wario on the snes on wario woods i think... just loved him so he has always been my char in all other mario games like mario kart... i think wario is pretty awesome, and if people think he is bottom or low tier us better for us, they doesnt play too many warios and thats and advantage to our game....

Wario rulz and we can show it, lets keep rocking.

 

[DstyCube]

I haven't seen any tier list thats ranked Wario below mid tier, but that's just me.

His main weakness is his range. A lot of people can't see around it because a lot of the current top tier characters have decent range, and that automatically puts him at a disadvantage to begin with. Tier lists are based on potential of the character if both players are of equal skill. In theory anyone with decent range should be able to keep Wario away by outranging most of his attacks.

But really I don't look too hard into tier lists because I feel if a player is competent, they'll be able to find ways to make their character work no matter who they're up against. That's where the true test of skill comes into play.

 

[Doctor Destructo]

In theory anyone with decent range should be able to keep Wario away by outranging most of his attacks.

This can be true, except very few characters are capable of really doing that. Marth and Link might be capable of doing so, but unless they spend a considerable amount of time training on their game versus Wario, they won't be able to keep up with his mindgames.

And who would put that much effort in learning how to beat a low tier character?

 

[Illussionary]

I haven't seen any tier list thats ranked Wario below mid tier, but that's just me.

His main weakness is his range. A lot of people can't see around it because a lot of the current top tier characters have decent range, and that automatically puts him at a disadvantage to begin with. Tier lists are based on potential of the character if both players are of equal skill. In theory anyone with decent range should be able to keep Wario away by outranging most of his attacks.

But really I don't look too hard into tier lists because I feel if a player is competent, they'll be able to find ways to make their character work no matter who they're up against. That's where the true test of skill comes into play.

Heh every tier list i've seen he's bottom tier.

 

[Samus_ABe]

Oooof here comes abes usuall rant that everyone is sick of already...

Wario is being underestimated simply because

A. No one is really playing him besides an elite few

B. They pawned him off as a gimick in the initial brawl intro trailer. i mean, who thought the farting guy would be any good? hes just this overweight farty guy who has a bike, thats so fvcking lame...

Wario players are having trouble with his range because they are not using short hop dair to manuver. In time everyone will do this, but for now there are still people who argue with me on the boards about how spamming down air is bad.

His range his really not that bad, take this match against my friends g&w for example: he uses the best spacer in the game, and i beat with my "short range" wario.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=y7STOYpenbE

things to look for: baiting with the dair to super armor foward smash at end =) every g&w falls for it

and this is a really scrubby match for me, im only posting it to prove a point.

 

[Illussionary]

Yeah I always try to explain to people attack range isn't an issue if you short hop dair, or if you use Wario's amazing DIs to get into range.

 

[Samus_ABe]

Illussionary you wanna jump on some wifi for wario dittos =)

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Negatives
--Poor range
-Slow running speed
-No projectile (not counting Bike parts)

Honestly, what other downsides does he really have?

Poor range and no projectile are just about the two worst downsides a character can possibly have in Brawl. Having a combination of poor range and no projectile is probably the single worst downside a character could possibly have in Brawl.

 

[Samus_ABe]

rofl if your main is ike which your icon suggests, then you as well have no projectiles and slow running speed. wario isnt even slow, i dont know why ppl think this....

lets play some wif right now yea?

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Ike has the most broken combination of range and power in the game. He also has no projectiles and will probably get ***** by camping toon links and pits.

 

[Doctor Destructo]

Wario might not have projectiles, but he has multiple ways of blocking them. His bike, crawling, eating them (for hilarity), and straight up dodging ensure that he takes minimal damage from campers, especially Pit. Toon Link is tough with Wario, but honestly, who isn't he tough with?

 

[Bobz]

its kind of annoying... but i think it only helps us in the end. wario players get that extra edge cause i mean, how many crews will have any wario expirience? hes got a lot of great options, just needs timing

and the down air thing, thats pretty much all i do, and i take matches off chillin all the time, you just short hop down air into someone, and try to determine if you'll get through, if so land in front and do something, if not, land behind, and even then you can bust off an fsmash at almost no risk

 

[Warlock*G]

Poor range and no projectile are just about the two worst downsides a character can possibly have in Brawl. Having a combination of poor range and no projectile is probably the single worst downside a character could possibly have in Brawl.

And *what* compensates for poor range and no projectile? That's right, mobility. *Air* mobility.

Hilarity ensues.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Yeah, maybe in Melee.

 

[Warlock*G]

Yeah, maybe in Melee.

If you mean "maybe in Melee, for sure in Brawl", then I agree with you. I mean, Brawl *is* more air-based than Melee after all.

And didn't you hear? Wario's an awesome pimp who fights for money and for kicks, while some *lame* characters decide to fight "for their friends".

Hilarity ensues.

 

[Ryan-K]

And *what* compensates for poor range and no projectile? That's right, mobility. *Air* mobility.

Hilarity ensues.

No it doesn't, ask jigglypuff.

Poor range isn't helped by aerial mobility as much as you people like to think. Alot of characters can just jump back and do whatever to beat out wario. Priority has alot to do with range so you won't often beat alot of moves. It doesn't help that wario isn't strong enough to make up for his lack of speed/range.

Wario isn't really that mobile on the ground, and his only fast ground move are his jabs and his fsmash out of shield which don't have that much range anyway, so the fact that he has to rely on being in the air limits him. He has good aerial mobility but it's not like he can do a whole lot with it. You people act like "WOW HE GOES FAR WHEN HE IS IN THE AIR THAT MAKES UP FOR ALL HIS WEAKNESSES LOL"

Toon link, marth, etc aren't good because of "AERIAL MOBILITY LOL". They are good because they have range, they are fast, and they are stupidly strong among other various things that aren't worth listing.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

If you mean "maybe in Melee, for sure in Brawl", then I agree with you. I mean, Brawl *is* more air-based than Melee after all..

And Brawl also *is* more about camping with projectiles and abusing moves with high priority and long range/hitboxes.

 

[DuB 22]

I use Wario as my secondary character and I love his combos. The Dairs to bites, the fairs to shield grabs, they are too much fun.

I main Ike however, and as rare as Warios are online ( I'm pretty sure I haven't played any Wario user with skill) I've had no real trouble with them. Ike's fair and nair, if you've got good spacing pretty much keep Wario at bat = /

Buuut, it's not like you couldn't use Wario's floatiness to mindgame the Ike into a F-smash in which you can punish him. A good Wario versus a good Ike is looking like a pretty even matchup.

 

[Bobz]

i play chillin dude down at tech a lot, i've taken matches off his dedede, zero suit, trainer, toon link, snake, fox, sheik, sure he wins more than i do, but hes freakin chillindude, and it is back and forth a bit

i've played assorted game and watch's with that ridiculus turtle, and beaten all of them

i've taken matches off my friend eastcoasteddie's metaknight, he usually gets second at our small tourneys

theres a pit player here who trains with chillin constantly, and i always beat him

i only use wario, he has his work cut out for him, but has the options to beat a wide variety of characters, the only two so far that seem to have a strong advantage over him is dedede with the mean chain grab, and marth with the range

 

[Warlock*G]

[...] "WOW HE GOES FAR WHEN HE IS IN THE AIR THAT MAKES UP FOR ALL HIS WEAKNESSES LOL"

Right, like anybody here ever said that. We (as in, Wario players) are only saying that Wario is underestimated and that his air mobility is a nice asset, not that said mobility compensates for *all* of his weaknesses. Stop beating on a strawman.

And Radical? Wario got plenty of tools to stay close to those projectile spammers / characters with disjointed hitboxes.

In other words,

LAWL

tools.

Double-entendre FTW.

 

[Ryan-K]

And *what* compensates for poor range and no projectile? That's right, mobility. *Air* mobility.

Right, like anybody here ever said that.

Wait. what?

You just said it made up for his weaknesses, maybe you should keep track of what you say yourself before calling out on other people hmm?

Lol what tools does wario have to stay close? His lightning speed? His amazing range? Even if he is close, what could he possibly do?

Also lol at wario v ike being an even match up. You can say "mindgames" all you want but the fact is I can say character x can beat character y without any facts whatsoever but as long as i say "teh mindgames" you people become convinced anything is possible. Get your head out of your *** and stop pretending that fixes everything. If you have to be better than your opponent by a decent amount to go even with them then DUH that shows your character's weaknesses.

Ignoring the rest of the post even though it has individual, fairly important points for you to answer and making extremely vague statements is not an argument.

 

[Stalfoe]

I like to play as Wario. He is very fun to play around with once you get used to how he works. He is obnoxious and funny, just a great character to lose against. He's amazing with few cons and you'll get even more kills just by messing with your opponent.

 

[Warlock*G]

Wait. what?

You just said it made up for his weaknesses, maybe you should keep track of what you say yourself before calling out on other people hmm?

1) First and foremost, I meant to say that nobody ever said "WOW HE GOES FAR WHEN HE IS IN THE AIR THAT MAKES UP FOR ALL HIS WEAKNESSES LOL". I mean, you make us Wario players sound like idiots. And in case you doubted it, I'll bet most of us aren't.

2) Also, I said air mobility "compensated" for Wario's weaknesses, but I'll admit it was an ill-chosen term. I didn't mean it counterbalanced Wario's weaknesses completely; all I meant was that Wario isn't as ****ed up as you people make him out to be. In other words, I should have used the term "partly compensates". Feel free to diminish this "partly" with words until there is nothing left. :/

Lol what tools does wario have to stay close? His lightning speed? His amazing range?

Not many tools aside from air mobility, which you seem to say is useless... but I'll come back to it later. Oh, and there's also the up-smash glitch.

Even if he is close, what could he possibly do?

Link in sig. Yeah yeah I know, vids don't *prove* anything per se, but hey, look at the farting man in action.

Also lol at wario v ike being an even match up. You can say "mindgames" all you want but the fact is I can say character x can beat character y without any facts whatsoever but as long as i say "teh mindgames" you people become convinced anything is possible. Get your head out of your *** and stop pretending that fixes everything. If you have to be better than your opponent by a decent amount to go even with them then DUH that shows your character's weaknesses.

Can't agree/disagree, seeing as I'm a total stranger to Ike. However, if you want people to get their heads out of their *****, you should be less categorical. Seriously. Let's try conversation, not arguing, alright? Although I'm aware it's gonna be hard at this point...

Ignoring the rest of the post even though it has individual, fairly important points for you to answer and making extremely vague statements is not an argument.

You're right, I wasn't arguing. I was

HAVING FUN

until it became kinda "serious".

Alright, now since you wanted me to answer those "individual, fairly important points", here goes:

No it doesn't, ask jigglypuff.

Poor range isn't helped by aerial mobility as much as you people like to think. Alot of characters can just jump back and do whatever to beat out wario. Priority has alot to do with range so you won't often beat alot of moves. It doesn't help that wario isn't strong enough to make up for his lack of speed/range.

Agreed on aerial priority, Wario's is crap.

I beg to differ on the aerial mobility and the strength though, but that may be because "strength" and "mobility" are subjective terms. Maybe bluesHell would be able to answer more precisely.

Alot of characters can just "jump back", yes, but jumping means they're in the air, and I think we've already established that Wario's air mobility is awesome. That means Wario can just come in and poke, *although I'll admit that it doesn't work wonders against fast characters with disjointed hitboxes*.

Wario isn't really that mobile on the ground, and his only fast ground moves are his jabs and his fsmash out of shield which don't have that much range anyway, so the fact that he has to rely on being in the air limits him. He has good aerial mobility but it's not like he can do a whole lot with it.

I don't know what you mean by "it's not like he can do a whole lot with it"... I think an appropriate question to ask would be: what *can't* Wario do with his air mobility? And what do you mean by "a whole lot"?

Toon link, marth, etc aren't good because of "AERIAL MOBILITY LOL". They are good because they have range, they are fast, and they are stupidly strong among other various things that aren't worth listing.

There we go again with the caps "quotes" implying we're idiots... I'll agree that Toon Link, Marth, etc. are good because of the reasons you listed (and others), but I'll also say that they're *probably* top tier, which is important.

I never said Wario was top, or even that he was as good as these characters you just mentionned. I only mean that some people, you included, are exaggerating his weaknesses. Furthermore, I think that's what the OP is implying.

That's what it's all about, people underestimating Wario. Maybe we Wario players are overestimating him, I don't know. But please stop typing like your word is law, you won't convince anybody that way. Yeah, I know, I'm guilty of it too, but I was just goofing around as always.

Man this post is too long...

 

[k4polo]

I consider him mid tier. His Aerial Movement is his most strongest points.

 

[Ryan-K]

I exaggerate because other people do too; it's to prove a point that thinking air mobility is that powerful is wrong hence my jiggs example.

I didn't say air mobility is useless but it's not that powerful, when you're in the air you are more vulnerable then you seem to like to believe. The fact that his priority is crap either means he has to be really close, the opponent has to have lagged, or you have to air dodge to the ground. You can't punish your opponent from that far away. It doesn't help that B moves stop your horizontal momentum (although that's a bit nitpicky I'll admit). This is what I mean; you imply that air mobility is an end all be all solution to his problems sans priority.

The usmash glitch is useful at a specific range, and it lags. It's also not that great of a move and if you hit them with it, it can be DI'd out of or certain chaarcters can punish with their invincible start up moves. It also doesn't really stop any projectiles unless they are falling on top of you directly.

If you wanted to avoid getting serious then don't get involved in a thread that screams "tier debate".

If the opponent is in the air it doesn't mean you always will. Aerial mobility doesn't matter if almost any move will beat out whatever you do either by outranging it or just beating it in priority straight up.

Strength is power, knockback, killing ability, etc. Mobility is how fast and efficiently you can move and how much you can control it. Poking is decent, but it isn't that great when you can't beat out alot of moves or the fact that he doesn't have alot of range either. Aerial mobility lets you go in and out but you can still be spaced out easily even if the opponent isn't as meticulous in their positioning as they should be.

A whole lot means that he can only really poke with his aerials. He can come down with a bite too but that stops his horizontal momentum completely. Air dodging makes you temporarily lose control of where you land if you do it to land safely; it's still punishable when they land and it's only really difficult to time a punish if you play on wifi.

I am not trying to act like my word is law, but it's annoying when loads of people say things like "wario is underestimated people just say he's bad just because he's wierd" or "AERIAL MOBILITY!!!" which isn't just coming from you, but I see it too many times in this thread. It's his greatest strength and it's pretty good but like half your post consisted of "well he can solve his problem by using his aerial mobility"

 

[3GOD]

No it doesn't, ask jigglypuff.

I believe Mango (Jigglypuff) beat M2K (Marth) at Pound 3.

Yes that's a Melee reference, and yes Jigglypuff had better range in Melee than Wario does in Brawl, but Jigglypuff was still outranged by Marth in Melee by a noticeable amount.

Poor range isn't helped by aerial mobility as much as you people like to think. Alot of characters can just jump back and do whatever to beat out wario. Priority has alot to do with range so you won't often beat alot of moves. It doesn't help that wario isn't strong enough to make up for his lack of speed/range.

Priority (as most people use it) is a myth in smash - it's all about range and speed. True priority would be two moves connecting at the same moment and one simply beating the other. Most of the time, one move simply outranges the other or connects before the other move's hit box comes out. Wario is VERY unlikely to outrange anyone with most of his moves, but he can still get inside thanks to the air-dodge mechanics of Brawl. By the way, he also has options other than aerial approaches to get inside.

Wario isn't really that mobile on the ground, and his only fast ground move are his jabs and his fsmash out of shield which don't have that much range anyway, so the fact that he has to rely on being in the air limits him. He has good aerial mobility but it's not like he can do a whole lot with it. You people act like "WOW HE GOES FAR WHEN HE IS IN THE AIR THAT MAKES UP FOR ALL HIS WEAKNESSES LOL"

He has poor ground speed for sure, but he does have the Jab, Fsmash (which by the way is plenty powerful considering how fast it is), and Dtilt (actually his fastest ground move other than dash attack, but too easily punished). Also, he can use the Bike to break through projectiles and even swords if you pop a wheelie. He may also be able to use the Dash Attack Canceled Usmash to slide inside the range of other players (I have yet to be able to test how good this actually works though). He isn't great on the ground for sure, but he has some tricks.

Toon link, marth, etc aren't good because of "AERIAL MOBILITY LOL". They are good because they have range, they are fast, and they are stupidly strong among other various things that aren't worth listing.

Yes, they are good for those reasons and not aerial mobility. The point you seem to be making is that they are good because of these factors, and therefore a character not possessing these factors is necessarily bad. This is faulty logic.

LOGIC LESSON (if you wish to read it - no insult is meant by this):

Statement A:
Good Range, Speed, and Strength ===> Good Character

We assume that Statement A is true (though there may be exceptions if some other aspect of the character is terrible). The only logical requirement is that the contrapositive also be true.

Contrapositive of A:
Not Good Character ===> Not Good Range or Not Good Speed or Not Good Strength (or any combination of the three)

You seem to be implying that the converse of the contrapositive of A is true (which is not required logically).

Converse of Contrapositive of A:
Not Good Range or Not Good Speed or Not Good Strength ===> Not Good Character

In Wario's case, he has poor range and speed, but these factors do NOT necessarily make him a bad character.​

END LOGIC LESSON

A comment about some of your "you people" statements:

I realize you're probably not referring to me with some of your comments, but your generalizations of the Wario forum members are inaccurate. I don't think his aerial mobility completely makes up for his shortcomings. I personally don't think Wario is "Top tier" or even "High tier" probably, but he definitely deserves more credit than most give him. I expect he'll be near the top of Middle tier when things get sorted out, but he's awesome to play with regardless.

 

[Warlock*G]

I exaggerate because other people do too; it's to prove a point that thinking air mobility is that powerful is wrong hence my jiggs example.

Alright, now I get it. You wanna wake people up.

you imply that air mobility is an end all be all solution to his problems sans priority.

Nope nope, I'm only implying that air mobility is, although not an end all solution, one of Wario's greatest assests, among the ones that stop him from being low-tier. Thus, that emphasis on aerial mobility was a direct answer to the topic's title: "Stereotypes continually insist Wario is Low-Bottom Tier".

If you wanted to avoid getting serious then don't get involved in a thread that screams "tier debate".

Yeah, maybe I should have... but I can't help it.
However, I like debating too... although I like real explanations (i.e. getting to the bottom of things, like we're doing now) better.

If the opponent is in the air it doesn't mean you always will. Aerial mobility doesn't matter if almost any move will beat out whatever you do either by outranging it or just beating it in priority straight up.

Oh but I think it does matter, at least against most characters (chars that aren't speedy with disjointed hitboxes). You see, the whole deal with the "mindgames" thing is, they're directly linked to air mobility (I know I'm getting annoying but please bear with me).

See, it's all about faking your opponent by coming in airborne, then retreating, then coming back while they lag after attacking (being mobile, you don't even need to airdodge). That's why Wario is least effective against characters such as Toon Link and Marth: not only do they have good range and priority, but they're also not easily punishable when they miss.

I think what I just typed was also an answer to that part of your post:

Mobility is how fast and efficiently you can move and how much you can control it. Poking is decent, but it isn't that great when you can't beat out alot of moves or the fact that he doesn't have alot of range either. Aerial mobility lets you go in and out but you can still be spaced out easily even if the opponent isn't as meticulous in their positioning as they should be.

A whole lot means that he can only really poke with his aerials. He can come down with a bite too but that stops his horizontal momentum completely. Air dodging makes you temporarily lose control of where you land if you do it to land safely; it's still punishable when they land and it's only really difficult to time a punish if you play on wifi.

And finally, you said:

[...] like half your post consisted of "well he can solve his problem by using his aerial mobility"

Yes, most of my post consisted of that, but I wanted to stress out the fact that I very well know that Wario cannot completely solve his problems by using his aerial mobility; I only meant that using it can make his problems less... problematic, so to speak.

Edit:

Yes, [Toon Link and Marth] are good for those reasons and not aerial mobility. The point you seem to be making is that they are good because of these factors, and therefore a character not possessing these factors is necessarily bad. This is faulty logic.

What 3GOD said. Keeping people at bay and having range is more important than it was in Melee, but let's not forget how long characters stay in the air in Brawl, or how slowly they "fast" fall.

 

[3GOD]

all I meant was that Wario isn't as ****ed up as you people make him out to be.

What's with all the generalizations?

 

[Warlock*G]

What's with all the generalizations?

Don't know, but I aimed the "you people" at all of the "stereotypes continually insisting Wario is low-bottom tier".

Besides, generalizing can be fun sometimes. Like saying all Americans are war-mongers.

 

[Ryan-K]

The you people statements are not community wide ffs.

Have you read the thread? Like 5 people said the same exact thing FFS. THOSE are who I am referring to. I don't think I said "you people = wario community" and I thought it was implied by the context.

I know what happened at pound 3 but I am talking about brawl jiggs. Besides that is totally irrelevant because all that proves is that mango played better than mew2king that day. What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

If priority is range and speed then wario's still sucks so I don't see how it matters. I didn't say he didn't have other options either, but if you're air dodging you're still approaching through the air.

The usmash thing is good until they start shielding/camping/ doing any move that beats the usmash which is alot of moves. The bike works sometimes yes, but having little tricks doesn't equal a good character.

I think he's middle too but I'm sick of how many people think this game is perfectly balanced or some ****.

If you have to fake out your opponent to get into a simple position then it proves the point that wario isn't as good as you think. Working harder to stay on even footing = character isn't as good or you are in a bad matchup. I can say "fake out mindgames fake out mindgames" all I want but it doesn't prove anything aside player x has to be better than player y to stay even. Mindgames aren't directly linked to anything aside from your ability to play.

i sound like a broken record by saying this but saying "Aerial mobility" doesn't fix his range or anything. It still sucks. it's good but it doesn't help as much as you think. it helps his weaknesses a little, so no kidding.

I like the whole "wow quit making generalizations about the wario community" when you think I meant the whole community when I was talking about the bunch of people earlier in the thread that basically spammed "but...but...AERIAL MOBILITY!!" It's pretty messed up when you can't have a civil debate because people have to rely on ad hominem based on misunderstanding what I'm saying.

 

[cyclops4ever]

i know i'm not very "known" yet for wario but you guys are seriously underestimating some of wario's critical moves. i give him at least middle or higher of mid tier. he is almost, not as nice, but almost as nice in the air as on the ground. just because a move is faster doesnt mean its better. mixed with air, its hard to stop him. and his recovery is another HUGE DOWNFALL FOR HIM, I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY SO MANY PEOPLE DONT SEE IT! i guess you'll all find out later as the game progresses, butat zero percent, or any percent for that matter, you get chased out, or do the chasing and gte knocked off you bike without a reasonable fart stored...you're through. any decent person can see this. that alone is worse than his range. i'm gona hear alot of complaining when people realize this. how do i stop people from smacking me off my bike? blah blah. example rob falls off ledge lazers, d3 drops off back a etc, marth fair off ur bike, it goes on and on. anycharacter cn do it easily. just watch out for it. especially if you are too far down and need to tilt the bike to get up. other than that he's pretty good. and DAMA shall be taking over.

and i agree with superrvan as well, you have to be better with wario to win, period. he's nice but not that nice. more the reason to main him! prove you're better than them! wah wah wahhh!

 

[Drezel]

alright so all those wario players saying "hey geez i know his DI doesnt make up for everything" HEY U NEED TO WAKE THE FVCK UP! seriously mind games are everything in this game and his DI abilities make him a sexy beast END OF STORY

 

[Warlock*G]

I like the whole "wow quit making generalizations about the wario community" when you think I meant the whole community when I was talking about the bunch of people earlier in the thread that basically spammed "but...but...AERIAL MOBILITY!!" It's pretty messed up when you can't have a civil debate because people have to rely on ad hominem based on misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Oh, but we had a perfectly civil debate earlier. We were even starting to understand each other(s).

And us, misunderstanding what you're saying? Didn't it occur to you that it *might* be the other way around? No, of course not. That's alright, maybe the reason this discussion won't progress is because, you see, people usually tend to assimilate information they receive to pre-existing beliefs (I'm talking about everybody here).

But that's cool, no worries. Let's all calm down ok? I think the whole debate is about the *degree* of usefulness of some of Wawawa's abilities.

Sorry, but you didn't convince me about Wario being headed for low tier. That is, *if* that's what you were trying to do...

his recovery is another HUGE DOWNFALL FOR HIM, I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY SO MANY PEOPLE DONT SEE IT!

Well I guess I never saw it because I assumed the bike was a kind of protection/wall for Wario... but yeah, you're right. If Wario gets knocked off while moderately far away... ****. And you're saying is that it's actually easy for other characters to knock Wario off his bike? ****.

 

[OmegaWeapon]

Sucks that I didn't notice this topic earlier, i would've been all over it, oh well.

I still think that regardless of some of the flaws that wario obviously has w/ some attacks, recovery, and whatnot, this character has some interesting stuff up his sleeve still, and as cyclops said at the end of his recent post on here, it just seems that a little more thinking may need to be involved in order to play a great wario, and regardless of what "tier" or degree of usefulness others may put him at whether it be higher or lower, that will simply not stop me from playing the big man.

I still personally think his DI makes him scary against most characters no matter how you slice it, but that's just me. Once i play some more people soon, i may be able to make a better assumption.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I believe Mango (Jigglypuff) beat M2K (Marth) at Pound 3.

The fact that you acknowledged this as a Melee reference doesn't change the fact that it holds absolutely no water in this thread. Melee is a different game, and it emphasizes some character strengths that Brawl doesn't, and vice versa. Having good range is even more important in Brawl than it is in Melee.

People always seem to forget that tier positions are relative. Low tier doesn't mean having no redeeming values, although Sonic comes pretty **** close in that respect. Whatever strengths a character has, they can still be low tier if the rest of the characters in the game outclass them. Mewtwo's speed, projectile, huge combos including space animal death combos, good recovery, combo throws, kill throws and edgeguarding abilities didn't save him from being low tier in Melee.

 

[3GOD]

I know what happened at pound 3 but I am talking about brawl jiggs. Besides that is totally irrelevant because all that proves is that mango played better than mew2king that day. What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

I assumed you were talking about Brawl Jiggs, but I was just pointing out a case where superior aerial movement was helpful in overcoming range. Brawl Jiggs feels sluggish in the air compared to Wario...I'm pretty sure they move horizontally about the same rate, but Jigglypuff falls/jumps slower and feels like mud. Back to Melee for a moment, I agree that normally a Marth of roughly equal skill should beat a Jigglypuff if played correctly, but the matchup isn't overwhelming by any means.

If priority is range and speed then wario's still sucks so I don't see how it matters. I didn't say he didn't have other options either, but if you're air dodging you're still approaching through the air.

I agree that Wario has poor range (though some of his attacks are pretty fast). As I stated before, he's unlikely to win in a range battle. Clearly air dodging is an aerial approach - I stated that there were other approach options after stating the air dodging mechanic.

The usmash thing is good until they start shielding/camping/ doing any move that beats the usmash which is alot of moves. The bike works sometimes yes, but having little tricks doesn't equal a good character.

The sliding Usmash is probably not that useful of an approach really, but I just wanted to mention it as an option. Shielding is actually exactly what I want my opponents to do when I'm playing Wario since he is one of the few characters that can actually pressure shields in this game. With Wario, it's MUCH easier to handle a shield camper than it is to handle a "wall of Fair" Marth. The Bike is decent for getting one hit in through their range, but really it doesn't lead to much else since he can't jump off of it immediately. It's really more useful for handling projectile spam than swords. True having little tricks doesn't equal a good character, but it doesn't hurt by any means.

The fact that you acknowledged this as a Melee reference doesn't change the fact that it holds absolutely no water in this thread. Melee is a different game, and it emphasizes some character strengths that Brawl doesn't, and vice versa. Having good range is even more important in Brawl than it is in Melee.

Please see the above point in response to superryan as to why it is somewhat relevant to this thread. Why is good range more important in Brawl than Melee? I assume you are basing this on tournament results?