The "All Items Play" Support Thread

[MorpheusVGX]

You are the kind of person who has always played with items since Smash64. As Items were always there , over the years, using them, avoiding them and pursuing victory against all odds, you have always measured skill in terms of everything: characters, stages, items. You disagree when people say skill cannot be measured when there are items. You kinda like Item Tournaments. If you have a similar feeling about this, this thread is for you to speak your mind and support this movement. Many people in this forums talk about having things organized so you can look for what you want, but there is not a section where I can find battles, tournaments and tactics talk about Item play.

I will start by telling you a little story:

I wanted to prove that even with all items around, the best players get to win. I told myself, how many stocks would it be appropriate so skill can overcome randomness and luck in a match? I thought 4 or 5 would be ok. To my surprise, here in Buenos Aires, Argentina, I went to a tournament held by a group called Nintendo Soul. It was just a tournament of this group and friends. It was not a tournament of great skill. But some people played quite good. As the fan I am, I know many strategies and theory about ATs. And I don't play that bad. Let's say I was the best player in there. I had to play 4 rounds. In the first, only the last was eliminated. In the second, the two worst. In the third, just the winner would pass. And finally ... it came the finals. All was in 4 player free for all. So.. what happened? I was first place in all matches. At the finals.. the 4 people that got in there were really the best 4 players I saw that day. And I won the tournament. So.. I proved my own theory. In item play, the most skilled players still win. So it is competitive. And happily, it is more fun and interesting.

Here is the link to the finals:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=YNYCoeAE30o

Here are photos of that day:

http://www.nintendosoul.net/foro/viewtopic.php?t=3098


WARNING: THIS IS NOT A PLACE FOR ITEM HATERS OR NON ITEM COMPETITION ELITISTS TO COME AND START FLAMING AND CRITICIZING ITEM PLAY. IF YOU DON'T HAVE AT LEAST SOME INTEREST IN THIS MOVEMENT, JUST GET OUT OF HERE!

 

[Roihu]

Hmm... I was born in Argentina....
Anyways, back on topic, I think people like no items because there's no luck of another person getting a Pokeball with Kyogre in it or something.
Cause Kyogre really is cheap.

 

[bobson]

You are the kind of person who has always played with items since Smash64. As Items were always there , over the years, using them, avoiding them and pursuing victory against all odds, you have always measured skill in terms of everything: characters, stages, items. You disagree when people say skill cannot be measured when there are items. You kinda like Item Tournaments. If you have a similar feeling about this, this thread is for you to speak your mind and support this movement. Many people in this forums talk about having things organized so you can look for what you want, but there is not a section where I can find battles, tournaments and tactics talk about Item play.

In other words, this thread is for real men only.

 

[Crazy_mofo213]

Casually, items are fun to use, but if you wanna play competatively they should really be turned off. Some FS's are over powered and can kill you at ridiculous percents. No items also helps you determine which player is better because the luck factor is narrowed down. Tripping is the only luck/random factor with no items on and even that is to much. Throwing in items just makes the unskilled players stand a chance against a pro and that IMHO is a bad idea.

Other than that I actually enjoy playing with items on, but just when i want to mess around or when I'm playing with friends.

 

[Roihu]

In other words, this thread is for real men only.

QFT
Anyways, I don't get why people can't learn to adapt to items. If they were truly a 'pro' they would be able to battle with items.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

But then. why did I never loose?
You saw me.. I am not that good. And I didn't loose a single match. No luck or randomness defeated me.
I think that Item play is more balanced with 4 players Free for All battles and all stages. Because certain Final Smashes are good against one (Sonic), others against many (Lucas). There is a survival feeling i find exciting. Also, the skills to avoid disasters and continue fighting is also measured. Analyze my battle. At some point, two persons got the spicy food, but I did a better use of it combining it with smash attacks. There are much more tactics involved when getting the best of items and avoiding the worst.

 

[25%Cotton]

QFT
Anyways, I don't get why people can't learn to adapt to items. If they were truly a 'pro' they would be able to battle with items.

usually they can, quite well. it's just a better measure of skill without items.

 

[Roihu]

usually they can, quite well. it's just a better measure of skill without items.

I'm sure they can, but can't they have fun pwning people with items?

 

[znintendotaku]

i HATE items...
think of it this way, theres this person who has lots of experience and is reasonably good and one day he goes up against a complete noob who (without items) would never touch him. so they get into a match and ITEMS are on and a pokeball just happens to land near the n00b, its a staryu. so then the experienced guy jukes the pokemon but then gets pummeled by a golden hammer or a bat...

Long story short, the experenced guy loses to a n00b by items...

the only time items are even relativaly good is when you want to have casual fun, otherwise most of them lack skill to use and win with...

 

[25%Cotton]

I'm sure they can, but can't they have fun pwning people with items?

some of them can, but often it's more fun pwning people without items.


it's just how the brain works. i enjoy items in a FFA, and occasional team battles, but in 1v1 it just feels ridiculous and in the way.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Item Play evolves

QFT
Anyways, I don't get why people can't learn to adapt to items. If they were truly a 'pro' they would be able to battle with items.

The just don't let it happen. They just start to ban items. Talking about cheap, talking about risk-reward things. Item play evolves just as well as no item play. It is more slowly as it is more complex. Me and my 2 brothers played a lot for 3 years, Smash 64. On the first year, hammer, starman, the bat, and certain pokemons were "cheap" and "automatic win". But we never thought of switching them off. We competed fiercely with them. And they just were part of the competition. To get them, to use them well, to avoid them. In time hammer, starman and pokemons were nothing. We were so skilled at avoiding them, hiding, running, we also could dodge the hammer by rolling, and had many ways of attacking or killing someone with a hammer. We had the courage to face a character with a bat, sword , or fan in hand. We often succeeded and took the weapon, use it, throw it. It all depended on situations. That is my experience. Tell me yours

 

[MorpheusVGX]

i HATE items...
think of it this way, theres this person who has lots of experience and is reasonably good and one day he goes up against a complete noob who (without items) would never touch him. so they get into a match and ITEMS are on and a pokeball just happens to land near the n00b, its a staryu. so then the experienced guy jukes the pokemon but then gets pummeled by a golden hammer or a bat...

Long story short, the experenced guy loses to a n00b by items...

the only time items are even relativaly good is when you want to have casual fun, otherwise most of them lack skill to use and win with...

In a 4 or 5 stock match a situation like that would not define the winner.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

They add randomness.

Bad player gets golden hammer spawn next to them as well as Starmen throughout the match and he wins. Sure seems fair....besides, I just don't like playing with items unless I'm just fooling around trying stuff out and taking cool snapshots.

 

[acv]

But then. why did I never loose?
You saw me.. I am not that good. And I didn't loose a single match. No luck or randomness defeated me.
I think that Item play is more balanced with 4 players Free for All battles and all stages. Because certain Final Smashes are good against one (Sonic), others against many (Lucas). There is a survival feeling i find exciting. Also, the skills to avoid disasters and continue fighting is also measured. Analyze my battle. At some point, two persons got the spicy food, but I did a better use of it combining it with smash attacks. There are much more tactics involved when getting the best of items and avoiding the worst.

items are not more balanced in 4 players free for all battles and stages.

if a person is more skilled then the obvious thing to do would be for the other 3 players to unite against the best player causing the best players to lose which is not the point of tournaments.

 

[Roihu]

i HATE items...
think of it this way, theres this person who has lots of experience and is reasonably good and one day he goes up against a complete noob who (without items) would never touch him. so they get into a match and ITEMS are on and a pokeball just happens to land near the n00b, its a staryu. so then the experienced guy jukes the pokemon but then gets pummeled by a golden hammer or a bat...

Long story short, the experenced guy loses to a n00b by items...

the only time items are even relativaly good is when you want to have casual fun, otherwise most of them lack skill to use and win with...

Well, if you were just as experienced as them at using items, then there's probably hardly any chance of them winning. Hammers are very easy to avoid, especially with some characters. The HRB almost never hits a homerun unless you time it correctly. (Or unless you have a pitfal. That works too)
Edit: I'm probably gonna get flamed with people saying it isn't, but I'm saying in most cases.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

items are not more balanced in 4 players free for all battles and stages.

if a person is more skilled then the obvious thing to do would be for the other 3 players to unite against the best player causing the best players to lose which is not the point of tournaments.

That is quite right. Never thought of it. But, I was referring to Item usage, final smashes.

In a FFA tournament all players should have a similar level of skill. Everyone attacking a single person should not happen.

 

[znintendotaku]

umm okay but are you any good without items?

if you have played since SSB64 with items constantly on, arent you getting alittle dependant?

Have you ever fought a match without them?

If your 'skilled' with items but suck eggs without them than your not skilled...you've just grown accustom to items and learned there atributes....

items dont represent fighting skill, they only show that you depend on a weapon to win.....

 

[Roihu]

umm okay but are you any good without items?

if you have played since SSB64 with items constantly on, arent you getting alittle dependant?

Have you ever fought a match without them?

If your 'skilled' with items but suck eggs without them than your not skilled...you've just grown accustom to items and learned there atributes....

items dont represent fighting skill, they only show that you depend on a weapon to win.....

I have fought matches and won without them. Sadly, I can't say I won them against anyone who plays extremely competitive.
But I don't really think this is supposed to be a game about skill anyways. It's not meant to be at least.
So, yeah, you're right. I am sorta dependent on items. But I don't play this game competitively, so that's probably it.

 

[acv]

That is quite right. Never thought of it. But, I was referring to Item usage, final smashes.

In a FFA tournament all players should have a similar level of skill. Everyone attacking a single person should not happen.

even if they have similar levels of skill one will always have more even if its by little.besides,with items the possibility of a person who has less skill beating a more skilled person is larger.anybody can win.

for some reason i was not surprised to see a person that i have never heard before win at EVO.

 

[bobson]

Why is it that if someone posts a thread saying "I know most of you don't like items, but for those of you that do, this thread is for you," the first thing people reply with is "Items suck because [arguments everyone has heard before and reference to getting killed by someone who got a starman, bunny ears, smash ball, golden hammer, superspicy curry and three legendary pokemon all at the same time]"?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

umm okay but are you any good without items?

if you have played since SSB64 with items constantly on, arent you getting alittle dependant?

Have you ever fought a match without them?

If your 'skilled' with items but suck eggs without them than your not skilled...you've just grown accustom to items and learned there atributes....

items dont represent fighting skill, they only show that you depend on a weapon to win.....

You are the example of a closed minded person I often speak about.
There is plenty of hand to hand fighting skill on item battles. You are not always having an item on your hand. Sometimes your opponent has one and you don't, and you still face him. The concept of item skill means something to you?
The concept of overall skill (both in item and hand to hand combat)?
What you call "fighting skill" ... why it cannot involve item skills?

In item play you develop both skills. In non item play you don't learn to use, face, avoid, items. So a non item user in an item fight is toast. An item player vs a non item one hand to hand, he can give a good fight.

I really didn't wanted to turn this thread into a fight. More than that. I wanted to gather item play supporters and gather good item tourneys experiencies and videos. To expand this movement to some other threads about item tactics, etc.


If you hate items or don't like them at all, don't come in here. This discussion have other threads about it. If you support it and want to tell why.. Great. Peace.

 

[25%Cotton]

lol, i actually enjoy items a lot, except in 1v1, in which case i hate them. i really enjoy a good item FFA (though team battles i generally prefer non-items, items are ok), actually....

the only reason that makes me slightly iffy towards items in 3 or 4-player is that they sometimes get in the way of serious screenshots .

like i have this SWEET light arrow picture with this awesome explosion and the "light needle" piercing through all the opponents.... except there's this random lip's stick sitting there making it slightly less epic-looking .

again, i enjoy a good FFA with items.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Me too. My favorite type of matches are 5 stock FFA matches, all items, all stages.

Team battles, Friendly Fire OFF are also amazing. Smash Brawl in all of its splendor!

 

[znintendotaku]

Why is it that if someone posts a thread saying "I know most of you don't like items, but for those of you that do, this thread is for you," the first thing people reply with is "Items suck because [arguments everyone has heard before and reference to getting killed by someone who got a starman, bunny ears, smash ball, golden hammer, superspicy curry and three legendary pokemon all at the same time]"?

what are you going to do about it?
i never saw that title anywhere, what are you smoking?

thats the same thing with melee fans coming to GBD to disagree with brawl, its called Freedom of speech. Its a public forum, everyone wants to put there opinions in here...

GET OVER IT, and dont get your panties in a bunch, sally...

 

[Corigames]

So...

You went to a tournament where you were noticeably better than everyone else and you won... and this proves that items are fair?

Really?

 

[Cease Tick]

I have fought matches and won without them. Sadly, I can't say I won them against anyone who plays extremely competitive.
But I don't really think this is supposed to be a game about skill anyways. It's not meant to be at least.
So, yeah, you're right. I am sorta dependent on items. But I don't play this game competitively, so that's probably it.

Then why are you posting in a thread supporting use of all items in tournaments?

Anyway, items in tournies could only maybe work.
1) No ffa, ever. Not competitive at all.
2)Item types would be limited quite strictly. So many items are just too gamebreaking.
3)Stock count would be increased to help mitigate the effects of randomness. As a consequence, matches would be much longer.

Even then, items tournies would never be nearly as popular as standard play. A small group of players might participate because they enjoy it more. Additionally, a strong outside force (maybe an organized crew) would have to push very hard to even get the movement started.

EDIT: Lol literally five people posted since I began typing my post. Anyway, I forgot to mention that the problem most people have with items is randomness. The winner in a tournament is supposed to be the best player, not the luckiest. The randomness of items far outweighs the skill it takes to use them, in most cases.

 

[MajinSweet]

As someone that normally would not like the idea of items in competitive play (I like items just fine, just usually not in competitive matches) I think I would actually prefer items for Brawl. I was completely against the idea until...the Evo tourney. (Can't believe I just said that) It was the first time where I actually watched Brawl matches without getting bored. Offense and approaches actually seemed to work and not get overshadowed by the games huge wealth of great defensive options. In Melee I will never suggest the idea of items in competitive matches, but with Brawl we can turn off the explosive capsules and the items actually make matches interesting. Of course I don't think every item should be on, I'm really against the Final Smashes, but that would be a discussion for a different time.

About free for alls...no, just no. If those three guys teamed up on you because they knew you were better you would have lost despite your skill being of a higher level than theres. Its nice that they didn't do that to you, but if a tournament has a lot of money on the line people will do whatever it takes.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

So...

You went to a tournament where you were noticeably better than everyone else and you won... and this proves that items are fair?

Really?

That proves that giving certain conditions (number of stocks for example) skill overcome luck and randomness given by items.
I won every single match.

Read the warning I just posted. This place is not to discuss fairness of item play. There is another thread for that. I don't want moderators to come here and close my thread because it becomes the same as some other. Get out!


I think FFA play can be competitive. It really is. I almost always play FFA and it feels pretty competitive. To go all against one or be a miserable camper and escape the fight would just be dishonorable. And a 1 vs 1 match could also be dishonorable if lets say, I shot lasers at you an run away until the match ends. The usual tactic for FFA play is to kill the player with most lives left. And that is honorable and valid.

 

[bobson]

what are you going to do about it?
i never saw that title anywhere, what are you smoking?

"The "All Items Play" Support Thread"

Seriously, we've heard every argument you're going to make before. Go bitch about being beaten by a three-year-old with Down's Syndrome who got a Pokeball somewhere else.

 

[Roihu]

Then why are you posting in a thread supporting use of all items in tournaments?

Anyway, items in tournies could only maybe work.
1) No ffa, ever. Not competitive at all.
2)Item types would be limited quite strictly. So many items are just too gamebreaking.
3)Stock count would be increased to help mitigate the effects of randomness. As a consequence, matches would be much longer.

Even then, items tournies would never be nearly as popular as standard play. A small group of players might participate because they enjoy it more. Additionally, a strong outside force (maybe an organized crew) would have to push very hard to even get the movement started.

Since when are items competitive and could be used in serious tournaments?
I am posting here because I believe items make the game more fun. I think that's basically what the whole topic is about.

 

[MajinSweet]

I think FFA play can be competitive. It really is. I almost always play FFA and it feels pretty competitive. To go all against one or be a miserable camper and escape the fight would just be dishonorable. And a 1 vs 1 match could also be dishonorable if lets say, I shot lasers at you an run away until the match ends. The usual tactic for FFA play is to kill the player with most lives left. And that is honorable and valid.

You are not thinking with the proper mind set, video games--especially in a competitive environment doesn't need to have any concern of "honor".

 

[znintendotaku]

"The "All Items Play" Support Thread"

Seriously, we've heard every argument you're going to make before. Go bitch about being beaten by a three-year-old with Down's Syndrome who got a Pokeball somewhere else.

i still dont see that title you mentioned...

idiot, you just admitted that items take no skill...

 

[MarKO X]

Okay, first of all, FFA, whether items are on or off, suck. It's like playing a realty TV show, where you can make an alliance, defeat the best player, etc. I've played too many FFAs in my day, and I hate them. I almost can never win unless I make an alliance, because some opportunitst is gonna come outta nowhere and kill me when I'm in no danger from the person I was paying attention to, steal my kill, or ruin my edge guard. But that's just me and my opinion on FFAs.

As for item play, I love this theory about how a player that's more skilled will lose to a noob when the items are on. If the items are on high, that's literally a lucky draw. Medium and low span produce far less lucky wins, and most items tend to discourage camping (except hotheads, pokeballs, and assist trophys) because you can have something tossed at you, or you might see an item that you like and might want to go for it... and competitive items play produces very exciting games. Have you seen some of the Evo2k8 vid of Brawl? They're frikin awesome, period.

I promise you this, if you play someone 1v1, you play with items, and you are better than your opponent, your opponent will not win. A 3yr old with Down Syndrome will not beat even the lowest ranked pro in any Smash just because items are on... it won't happen.

 

[Newuser12345215]

Well, if you were just as experienced as them at using items, then there's probably hardly any chance of them winning. Hammers are very easy to avoid, especially with some characters. The HRB almost never hits a homerun unless you time it correctly. (Or unless you have a pitfal. That works too)
Edit: I'm probably gonna get flamed with people saying it isn't, but I'm saying in most cases.

First of all, it's true items does not overtake skill BUT IT CERTAINLY introduces luck, luck which people usually don't want in the game.

For example, say, you're playing a match and if you win, you win $5000. You're winning, and it all goes down to the last stock.

You're damaging up to a 100%, then suddenly(one of the few things happen):

1. A crate drops near you, WHILE you're attacking, you can't stop the attack, explodes, you die, you lose $5000.

OR

2. A bomb appears right next to the opponent, he throws you, it happened too fast for you to notice, you lose.

OR

3. BTW, pokeballs + assist trophies = bad idea. If there are pokeballs and assist trophies, the match will be nothing but "who can get the most pokeballs" or who can get the most "bombs".

That's completely changes the game.

Not to mention ,it's luck based.



So you're playing for $5000, you pick 5 pokeballs, the opponent picks 5 pokeballs.

They get all the good pokemons, that can usually KO a person from 0%.

You get all the bad pokemons, like goldeen.

POINT IS, most people prefer "competitive", "play for money, games to involve little or no luck.



Anyway, items COULD work but here the items that should be banned if it's competitive, for money:

1. Exploding stuff, crates, etc, bombs.

2. Final Smash Ball, Dragoon. Because Landmaster can potentially KO 3 times per landmaster.

3. Pokeballs, Assist trophies.

4. Don't know what else.

As for item play, I love this theory about how a player that's more skilled will lose to a noob when the items are on. If the items are on high, that's literally a lucky draw. Medium and low span produce far less lucky wins, and most items tend to discourage camping (except hotheads, pokeballs, and assist trophys) because you can have something tossed at you, or you might see an item that you like and might want to go for it... and competitive items play produces very exciting games. Have you seen some of the Evo2k8 vid of Brawl? They're frikin awesome, period.

I promise you this, if you play someone 1v1, you play with items, and you are better than your opponent, your opponent will not win. A 3yr old with Down Syndrome will not beat even the lowest ranked pro in any Smash just because items are on... it won't happen.

True, that's kind of a bad argument.

Anyway, short version of why no items:

Take 2 players, nearly equally skilled, same characters or neutral characters(the match up is nearly 50/50).

The match will basically depend on luck. So, instead of playing Brawl, you're playing "roll the dice".

Each player takes 3 dice, rolls it, and whoever gets the highest number of dots, wins.

Now, obviously, skill matters but items introduces luck which can quickly turn a match in favor of one another(see above).

Instead of bothering with items, it's just easiest just to ban items all together, and don't worry about items introducing luck into the game.

 

[Cardd]

personally, i beleive that items should be used, b/c i beleive if you are truly good you should be able to adapt to the situation, and then if ur your really *****y about it take off pokeballs and assist trophies, which are the most fun.

Items do not introdude luck, they introduce a randomly changing scenario which the challenge is to adapt to. and everyones like but what if crap lands next to you and explodes, well that works both ways dude, it's just as likely to happen to them.

although i play without items competitivly, only cuz everyone else does. if items were there, i'd be happier. more fun, and more skill.
And if someone is going to post in response to this, id like to here something new, thx.

 

[hippyman69]

Cardd: Items do not introdude luck, they introduce a randomly changing scenario

my internet is kinda wierd and i cant quote now

lol at ur statement Cardd. random=luck. what a stupid thing to say if you are trying to back up ur argument. u pro item ppl are completely ********. and to OP who 'tested' in only 1 little item tournament that they dont let noobs win if ur good. that is also stupid. 1 test is highly unreliable. plus, the difference in skill WILL be a big factor. so equally skilled + items= luckiest person wins. highly skilled + noob who just picked up the game = highly skilled dude wins. that is the only scenario where items will not affect outcome because the difference is too great, this is an exaggeration but a lower skill difference means items will sway the outcome = luck = lucky guy wins. probably why you won, cuz ur opponents were total noobs. or luck... lucky you didnt lose.

 

[Talazala]

It's really just a preference now that I think about it.

There was a time when I had no idea about Smash forums, tiers, wavedashing, or this no items standard. Even without people telling me no items was the norm, I independently discovered the dislike for items. By myself, so there's no calling me a band-wagon hopper. It's like a feeling you just aquire after a while.

I also find no problem in people trying to get others to use items, they're like missionaries, kinda. If you don't like items, then don't play at item tournaments. If you like items, then go ahead and try to convince no item users to use items. We're probably not gonna be convinced, so it would be smarter to simply bond together with other item users.

Which is why I approve of this thread.

No item players: If we let item users band together, they will eventually leave us alone, and simply play with the people who share their preference. Attacking this thread will just make the item users angry at us, and will result in more Item lovin threads.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Items are bad. Let me ask you something: What skill is involved in grabbing Pokeballs and ATs, using Recovery Items at 300%, or blowing people up with Smart Bombs? None. Without items, the unknown factor is gone and the game is actually a test of skill instead of a test of luck.

 

[Chagen46]

Items are bad. Let me ask you something: What skill is involved in grabbing Pokeballs and ATs, using Recovery Items at 300%, or blowing people up with Smart Bombs? None. Without items, the unknown factor is gone and the game is actually a test of skill instead of a test of luck.

There are still people like you, who cant take the fact that some people have opinions, and think that everyone must think you do, or you're going to PMS like crazy.

Wow.

 

[Jack Kieser]

'Item Standard Play' Approved Item List (1v1 & 2v2) and Discussion Thread

I'd link to the ruleset thread, but it seems to have fallen off of Tournament Discussion; I'll have to ask AZ about that.

EDIT: Found it.

'Item Standard Play' Official Ruleset Discussion Thread (1v1 & 2v2)

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