Official The Lean Mean Green Machine - Luigi Gameplay Discussion

[Yonder]

So I went to a local after 2 months of not playing after the nerfed Luigi. I went solo Luigi here [Well, M2 and WFT too but lost those matches so doesn't count]. I got 5/13th, pretty mediocre but these guys play a lot more than me...anyways!

Luigi is still a viable character and can handle most matchups still...can't kill much at all though. His damage racking is still as good as before, I have no problems there. Still a top tier character...at the start of a game. Towards the closing stocks though, it's a struggle to close stocks, relying almost exclusively on Usmash, bair, a jab to up b [depending on character...but I don't chance it at high % last stocks] or backthrow right at the edge. It's pretty painful. Not Bowser Jr/Duck hunt levels of bad killing, but probably just a touch above Mario in the middle of the pack there.

Matchups I played were Falco, Falcon, Villager, and Yoshi. Lost bad to Falco and almost beat Yoshi.

Falco is an even to slight advantage Falco I feel. Lasers and reflector and much more effective that Fox's against Luigi and Falco's high jumps can really chase Luigi up in the air. Still prone to back air gimps, though.

Falcon is even. After so many matches against them over the year, both have big advantages on each other. Luigi combos, Falcon outranges. Luigi gimps, Falcon outspeeds and juggles with uair. Falcon cannot do the full jab sequence or face nair punishment. But Luigi''s bigger dair spike hitbox is nice, Falcon is the easiest character to gimp in the game with it. If Falcon is offstage, he's dead. Forward throw that guy if you're ever near an edge and go for it Chances are, it will land. I got all my kills off dair spike alone. as Falcon recovered.

Villager is manageable. Fireball cans gyroid, and you want Villager away from the edge. If they don't approach you, don't approach them. In the middle of the stage I think Luigi wins it.Or, you can read their landing and combo accordingly like I did. I did extremely well against Villager. If you can avoid bowling balls while recovering Luigi definitely stands a chance...

Yoshi, same spiel. He's faster, gimps with fair, jab to up b is awesome on him, etc etc Yoshi is dumb and braindead.

I vrsed Megaman in friendles...wow do pellets beat up Luigi so much. That was my 1st match against one though in person. Eww. Do not like. But Luigi combos Megaman so, so badly from a D throw it's silly. Also dair spike able, but much harder to land than on Falcon despite the same near linear pattern. I fared better with Mewtwo here.

 

[Underhill]

So I went to a local after 2 months of not playing after the nerfed Luigi. I went solo Luigi here [Well, M2 and WFT too but lost those matches so doesn't count]. I got 5/13th, pretty mediocre but these guys play a lot more than me...anyways!

Luigi is still a viable character and can handle most matchups still...can't kill much at all though. His damage racking is still as good as before, I have no problems there. Still a top tier character...at the start of a game. Towards the closing stocks though, it's a struggle to close stocks, relying almost exclusively on Usmash, bair, a jab to up b [depending on character...but I don't chance it at high % last stocks] or backthrow right at the edge. It's pretty painful. Not Bowser Jr/Duck hunt levels of bad killing, but probably just a touch above Mario in the middle of the pack there.

Matchups I played were Falco, Falcon, Villager, and Yoshi. Lost bad to Falco and almost beat Yoshi.

Falco is an even to slight advantage Falco I feel. Lasers and reflector and much more effective that Fox's against Luigi and Falco's high jumps can really chase Luigi up in the air. Still prone to back air gimps, though.

Falcon is even. After so many matches against them over the year, both have big advantages on each other. Luigi combos, Falcon outranges. Luigi gimps, Falcon outspeeds and juggles with uair. Falcon cannot do the full jab sequence or face nair punishment. But Luigi''s bigger dair spike hitbox is nice, Falcon is the easiest character to gimp in the game with it. If Falcon is offstage, he's dead. Forward throw that guy if you're ever near an edge and go for it Chances are, it will land. I got all my kills off dair spike alone. as Falcon recovered.

Villager is manageable. Fireball cans gyroid, and you want Villager away from the edge. If they don't approach you, don't approach them. In the middle of the stage I think Luigi wins it.Or, you can read their landing and combo accordingly like I did. I did extremely well against Villager. If you can avoid bowling balls while recovering Luigi definitely stands a chance...

Yoshi, same spiel. He's faster, gimps with fair, jab to up b is awesome on him, etc etc Yoshi is dumb and braindead.

I vrsed Megaman in friendles...wow do pellets beat up Luigi so much. That was my 1st match against one though in person. Eww. Do not like. But Luigi combos Megaman so, so badly from a D throw it's silly. Also dair spike able, but much harder to land than on Falcon despite the same near linear pattern. I fared better with Mewtwo here.

Congratulations. Yeah, he still a good character, but no longer top 10. I wish someone places him in high tournaments like with Ally's Mario and Esam's Pikachu and win with him to show how great he is. I know Boss is there, but he's not in Ally's level.
Good experience on and the others. He gives me problems with his jabs to box me out and speed which forces me to switch to my or . I need to start practicing against good CFs with my Luigi.

 

[G. Stache]

I was testing out Luigi's u-throw a bit today, and I found a combo that is is only on precise percents (in training mode, it was from ~40-55% on ZSS) but it was u throw -> Uair -> Bair. It did 33% and I'm actually kind of surprised nobody at least used this for a mix up (as, from what I faced, people expect d throw from Luigi and prefer to DI in back of Luigi. Which, in theory, wouldn't work too well for this combo. If anyone who has an actual DI buddy wants to test this out too, extra data would never go amiss.

 

[hey_there]

I know I'm not the first to discover it but I've been having a lot of success with dthrow -> FH sour spot nair -> cyclone as a kill confirm, though it only works at ~80% or so depending on the character/rage. I haven't really done much labbing with Luigi at all since the patch (focusing on school) but I think it's worth investigating further.

 

[G. Stache]

To add to this, depending on DI, d throw into Uair into cyclone can be used. I think it was bad DI though (and it's definitely DI dependent, I feel). But it's still something worth noting. Also, this may be too specific to try out in any rational sense, but at around 50% a weak Nair into Up B is a true combo on Fox. Might take a bit of rage for an actual kill, though I guess it can only make the Fox MU slightly better.

 

[TriTails]

I've found out that Luigi's SH F-air to D-air auto cancels. The timing must be almost frame perfect, however.

If you can do it out of a D-throw...
Floaties, I don't think they are very susceptible with the followups after this chain. Use double F-airs instead, lest you accidentically spike them and give them frame advantage. For fast-fallers, this is probably your man. Oh, and D-air has a slight chance on tripping them if they land before D-air hits. Also, if you haven't noticed, this can be followed up with a regrab, jab, or U-tilt (HOWEVER, U-tilt comes out just in the right frame for them to PS (According to lvl 9 bots since the PS like everything). Unless you are sure they won't shield, don't do this. Go for a regrab instead). I thiiiink they can also jump out of the D-air.

To add, F-throw + run + SH double F-airs can also work on floaties at low percents. U-throw + clean U-air + N-air isn't guaranteed but it's good for setups, especially on fast-fallers.

From my experiences, double jab to dash grab seem to work better than jab + standing grab, mainly because the extra time needed can throw people off, and spacing the jabs will still net you the grab (Whereas spacing jab 1 would make grab miss IIRC). However, I can see this being a mixup by switching both methods around. Add in jab + FJP and you're good. HOWEVER, they can get out by double jumping. Unsure on grab, but FJP definitely means a hard punish. Don't overuse your Up-B.

 

[hey_there]

Fair -> Dair AC is also good for stage control. With the new shield mechanics it's also much safer shield pressure if spaced well. Against fastfallers though I usually Fair -> Nair instead since I find that usually leads to more follow ups at lower %s.

I've always had issues getting the AC, but just recently switched Z to jump (to have right index on jump and right thumb on c-stick) for faster aerials and I'm now able to consistently get the AC window. I used to have L as jump but I was inconsistent with my SHs and JCs.

 

[Underhill]

Does any Luigi mains have good experience and know how to approach ,,, and ?

When it comes to good players who know how to use Shulk, Marth, Roy, and Lucina well, I have a hard time getting in on them. I can get in sometime and I know Luigi's approaches aren't good, but I struggle to get in safely like I can't even use my aerials due to disjoints so I'm forced to remain onto the ground. I use fireballs to try help myself out, but it doesn't cut it either and they keep blocking my approaches and I don't know what to do to get in on them.

If anyone has the experience against good sword characters listed above, please let me know because I struggle try to find ways to get around their disjoints and I'm not good at fighting good disjointed players as Luigi, especially approaching too.

 

[Xephilon]

Does any Luigi mains have good experience and know how to approach ,,, and ?

When it comes to good players who know how to use Shulk, Marth, Roy, and Lucina well, I have a hard time getting in on them. I can get in sometime and I know Luigi's approaches aren't good, but I struggle to get in safely like I can't even use my aerials due to disjoints so I'm forced to remain onto the ground. I use fireballs to try help myself out, but it doesn't cut it either and they keep blocking my approaches and I don't know what to do to get in on them.

If anyone has the experience against good sword characters listed above, please let me know because I struggle try to find ways to get around their disjoints and I'm not good at fighting good disjointed players as Luigi, especially approaching too.

The answer here: Perfect shielding. Keep them out with fireballs as much as you can and as soon as they get near, try to perfect shield the attacks. Normal shield is also fine but don't try to go in on them when you do that, you will most likely get punished. Also, you can try RAR Bair as a spacing tool, that's normally what I do. Other than that, I'm not sure what to tell you. These kinds of things is more skill based rather than just character based.


Now, a question for Luigi community, do you guys believe that Mario is a now a better character than Luigi? I'm not saying this in a bad way or anything but I'm just curious on what you guys think. IMO Mario is slightly better than Luigi due to his utility (cape and fludd) and better recovery. Luigi will still be my #1 go to plumber though, no matter what.

 

[G. Stache]

The answer here: Perfect shielding. Keep them out with fireballs as much as you can and as soon as they get near, try to perfect shield the attacks. Normal shield is also fine but don't try to go in on them when you do that, you will most likely get punished. Also, you can try RAR Bair as a spacing tool, that's normally what I do. Other than that, I'm not sure what to tell you. These kinds of things is more skill based rather than just character based.


Now, a question for Luigi community, do you guys believe that Mario is a now a better character than Luigi? I'm not saying this in a bad way or anything but I'm just curious on what you guys think. IMO Mario is slightly better than Luigi due to his utility (cape and fludd) and better recovery. Luigi will still be my #1 go to plumber though, no matter what.

I disagree that Mario has a better recovery...but that's hardly the point now is it? I think Mario's definitely better now, but Luigi is obviously still good too. Utility is something I wish Luigi had more of, though. Cyclone gimping is great and fireballs are one of the best projectiles in the game. But Luigi needs a reflector. Like, I was thinking: what if he got some sort of hammer spin that could go as far as fully charged green missile and could reflect projectiles? And it could have little ending lag, unlike green missile which forces you to recover lower than a teenager's average self esteem, lest you want to get spiked hard. But the hammer spin thing would give us great burst movement and a reflector for the price of one. Solving two big problems we have. But I'm just dreaming at this point. I'm sure Nintendo would scoff at my idea as Green missile is too 'iconic' to get rid of. Now I feel Ganon mains' pains...

Anyways, rant/idea dump aside, let me give a good conclusion. Basically, Luigi is once again playing second fiddle (that's a saying, right?) to Mario, but he's still certainly good and can still hold his own. Top 15 still imo. Down but not out is the phrase I use for Luigi. Expect to see people overhype him again once the dust has finally settled for him. Hell, I'm pretty sure Zero is already back to doing that if I'm not mistaken.

 

[TriTails]

IMO, Luigi is just hanging in mid tier, floating around upper-mid. He lost a lot with little compensation. If he isn't going to kill you off a grab at 110%, then he shouldn't have that much trouble getting in.

But I'm a bad player, so bias may just be unconsciously siding with me.

 

[Xephilon]

Yeah top 15 sounds about right. Luigi still has an amazing combo game and cyclone gimping is really useful too but he still loses to some top tiers (Sheik, RosaLuma, etc) pretty hard...The thing is, I'm thinking of picking up a secondary. I like the offensive playstyle so im between Pika, Yoshi and/or Mario to cover his weaknesses. So I'm just trying to get some help on that xD

 

[G. Stache]

Yeah top 15 sounds about right. Luigi still has an amazing combo game and cyclone gimping is really useful too but he still loses to some top tiers (Sheik, RosaLuma, etc) pretty hard...The thing is, I'm thinking of picking up a secondary. I like the offensive playstyle so im between Pika, Yoshi and/or Mario to cover his weaknesses. So I'm just trying to get some help on that xD

If you're willing to put in the time, pika is a good choice. He goes evenish with Sheik and beats rosa slightly (still considered evenish though). Though Mario and Yoshi can still be considered, yoshi loses to sheik and Mario loses to Rosa. Only problem is that pika takes a decent amount of devotion while Mario and yoshi can be picked up with relative ease. Your choice, though.

 

[Underhill]

I think Luigi is top 15 because of his amazing combo game, tornado gimp, frame data, ko potential, and still has good mus against top tiers such as Mario, Pikachu, Fox, and Diddy Kong, but lost kill set ups and still lose to Sheik and Rosalina. We can still get there with Luigi, but we need to work harder now and help grow the metagame because there is no easy way to do this. I got Mario, Pikachu, Kirby and Doc for special people like Sheik and Rosalina(while I main her, myself), but pretty much, I rather get up there as Luigi than switching unless I'm forced to because I love playing as Luigi and enjoy going beyond with him.

 

[Wow]

With Luigi is extended dash dancing good with him or is foxtrotting better for him?

 

[TriTails]

I just thought of this, but I'm having trouble pinpointing Luigi's 'intended archetypes'.

Of course, none of us are one of the developers, but other characters seem to receive nerfs and buffs according to their archetypes (Some are obvious enough), but Luigi... I can't find his archetype.

Spoiler: Let's wall of text Ganon

Let's start from Ganon. Ganon had his N-air buffed to link properly last patch. He also had D-air hitboxes moved down to increase his range, Dark Dive was strengthened up, and landing lag buffs to his aerials. Meaning? He was buffed to further emphasize his obvious design of 'Really slow but really powerful'.

- His F-air was (And still is? IDK) weaker than Doc's F-air, so it was strengthened up in past patches.
- N-air links correctly so that he could deal more effective damage (N-air now deals 19%. Basically yells 'Deal with this').
- D-air was buffed in range so that Ganon's edgeguarding becomes even more potent and it also helps with combos due to it being hard (Even impossible, from what I've heard) to tech if it hits you while you're grounded.
- Dark Dive was strengthened up because it was hillariously weak pre-patch. It has more KB and can kill at the ledge probably at 150%-ish (140%?). Note that this KB buff was actually damage buff, which powers up KB in the process. This was done so Dark Dive don't deal a laughable 11% for a move that's hard to hit (Falcon's deal 17%. What's up with that ****) and actually has SOME power to it instead of... sending people 5 cms away after they explode for crying out loud. Also, Ganon needed an OoS option so he doesn't get absolutely wrecked in CQC.
- Landing lag buffs are probably because Ganon was still a little too laggy for his mobility, but they were mostly down by one frame except for D-air, and the latter I presume has connection to the third point: helping with combos. Take note Ganon also received the same treatment in 1.0.4.
- Reverse Warlock Punch probably for FFAs use, but Warlock Punch almost doesn't matter in 1-on-1 (I like seeing montages of people tanking through stuffs like Bowser Bomb and punched his a** in return tho) so let's not dwell on it too much.

They helped to emphasize his archetype, did they not?

Spoiler: Let's wall of text Greninja

Greninja was nerfed in the first patch, so much to produce a dumb meme outta it. I presume it's because Hydro Pump was too stronk and U-smash being too lagless, but I don't know much about this character back then. So I better stop talking **** about pre-nerf Greninja.

Greninja in my book seem to be 'combo heavy character with awesome mobility and camping game to compensate for his bottom 5 average damage output per hit and attack speed'. This character has one of the best mobility specs in the game, Shurikens being a lagless projectile that moves at a speed of sound to camp OR a hugea** projectile that can kill, and let's combo people to hell and back with this character. But if averaged, this character has bottom 5 attack speed and damage output per hit.

Let's see here:
- His F-tilt was buffed in range, damage, and cooldown. This is probably because he is bottom 5 in both average damage output and attack speed. He needs something to keep people out.
- Shurikens was buffed in startup so he can camp much more effectively. Reason same with above.
- His smashes and Shadow Sneak was buffed in KB (slightly). These are obviously to help him with killing after racking up damage with combos.

Last point probably didn't do much, but point still stands, these buffs emphasized his archetype, did they not?

Spoiler: Let's wall of text Sheik

Sheik's archetype is obviously 'broken ninja because why not' 'weak but with excellent safety'. Her average damage output per hit is the bottom of the bottom in this game, but her frame data proves to be really fast and safe.

Let's see:
- BF was nerfed in 1.0.4 because it was too strong for a character that's supposed to be weak. F-air and U-air were also nerfed in damage (F-air back then dealt 6.8%. Yeah, that's quite a lot for something like that).
- Needles were nerfed in end lag. This was because needles were (And still are) too effective for camping on a character with extreme safety and mobility. They still are, but at least they lag a bit now.
- U-air was toned down in KB because it was great for killing, again, opposing to the fact she is supposed to be weaker than most. Was it near pre-nerf Diddy's U-air power tho? IDK.
- B-air was nerfed, which I don't exactly see the point? I heard from some people that it still kills too early offstage (I can understand. It was cut down by 3%. HUGE difference) but probably again, to tone down her knockback.
- F-air was nerfed again. Sourspot now takes priority over sweetspot. Damage was reduced, but sweetspot KB was increased. According to Aerodrome's personal awesome maths calculator, sweetspot F-air now deal slightly less KB (Toning down its KB... again) than before. F-air KB toning down, and sourspot overlapping sweetspot means Sheik would need to space in order to hit that 5%, else she will be getting 4.3%. The lower damage helps with her combos, but worse for killing. Get the meaning?

Even though she probably still needs some toning down, nerfs were given without driving her out of her archetype.

3 examples, you should get the point. Now what about... Luigi? Let's see his stats first:
He is combo machine, with great attack speed : power ratio. Getting in with him means great rewards. He has the fastest attack speed in the game with decent damage output on his attacks. He has some vibe of safetiness and great kit of smashes and aerials. Fireballs are effective to use in zoning and FJP keeps his punish game scary. Tornado gimps are great for half of the cast recoveries. However...

He has one of the worst mobility specs in the game. Running speed is below average with 2nd slowest airspeed and floaty fall. He struggles to kill due to his D-throw nerf, relying mostly on U-smash and B-air, which doesn't bode well with his mobility. His recovery is gimpable (At least without Garbage Missile it becomes MUCH less gimpable) and slow to boot (Also it requires top tier mashing to make it worthwhile). His traction hinders his otherwise scary OoS options. Relatively slow SHFF game hinders his aerials' usage. His range is one of the worst, if not THE worst in the game. He gets outcamped hard due to his mobility alone. He is jugging pin airbone due to slow fall and airspeed (Doesn't help his double jump goes to heaven).

If I were to describe him, the closest I can get are... 'struggle to get in with massive rewards', 'damage racking character but fishes for his kills', or 'Punisher'. Problem is: They don't exactly fit.

The first one, 'struggle to get in but massive rewards' was what pre-patch Luigi held perfectly. But he had his D-throw nerfed????? Now he struggles to kill. It's 'great rewards' instead of 'massive rewards' while still keeping the 'struggle to get in'.

The second one, 'damage racking character but fishes for his kills' is a great way to describe him. Except for the fact he can't really fish for kills effectively despite lagless smashes because why? Mobility and range. He gets outcamped hard and often needs hard reads to get kills, which isn't good since he DOES struggle to get in.

The third one, 'Punisher'. He gets a lot of reward through punishing with grab or FJP, for damage and kills respectively. Thing is... traction prevents him from punishing stuffs. When Falcon's F-smash is safe on his shield ya know his soles are ****ed up.

So... help me everyone? Maybe if we can get a hold of his true archetype, we'll know what we can improve in.

Honestly, I'm getting the vibes of his tools getting 'gimped by his own design' here. Because aerials would be monster if he had airspeed. Smashes would be monster if he had mobility. OoS would be monster with actual traction. But that's the thing. If. He doesn't have a lot of things to support his tools over.

Appreciate anyone who had the patience to read through this. Sorry if you all get the vibes of pessimist here, but I didn't meant to. I just thought I'd share with you guys my thoughts.

 

[meleebrawler]

Much of this sounds like Falco. They can both jump really high and hit hard for how fast their moves are but pay for it with slow lateral movement. You don't wan't to be hit by their aerials because they smart. They use midrange options to force the opponent to take action then move in. And once they've taken considerable damage and are conditioned to dodge your stuff preemptively you can smash them.

Remember that powershields preserve his OOS power.

 

[Xephilon]

Archetype huh?...I don't know how to exactly describe. Honestly I don't have that much trouble getting in against most characters (I finally mastered the art of perfect shielding at a constant basis). As for trouble killing, Luigi doesn't have that either. Most characters require a read to get a decent kill (Pika, Sheik, RosaLuma, etc). He has so many kill moves that its laughable, especially considering his Usmash makes him invincible for a few frames and has low lag. Oh and he's range is decent. Pika's range is pretty bad on most attacks while Luigi's just right.

So in the end, what is he? I believe him to be a "Low speed combo machine" with punishing attributes thrown in. Tbh, there's no exact one for him.

 

[Yonder]

Anyone else feel a bit...discouraged when you can't jumpless cyclone with Luigi? I don't feel like I can become an optimum Luigi until I can do one like Boss, Concon, etc. Cyclone gimps and saving Luigi's junp are pivotal to higher Luigi play. Otherwise, I don't think I'll be breaking past top 7 in locals anytime soon.

(Perfect pivoting too I can't do but that's a universal technique so I'll let it...slide. Pardon the pun.)

 

[TriTails]

Much of this sounds like Falco. They can both jump really high and hit hard for how fast their moves are but pay for it with slow lateral movement. You don't wan't to be hit by their aerials because they smart. They use midrange options to force the opponent to take action then move in. And once they've taken considerable damage and are conditioned to dodge your stuff preemptively you can smash them.

Remember that powershields preserve his OOS power.

I feel like people have no reason to airdodge after D-throw. Jumping away often eliminates Luigi's followups to kill (Cyclone can't reach double jumping people). Same goes with U-tilt and N-air. Airdodging will get Luigi a chance to punish (In some cases, chance to FJP) but jump away and... Luigi can do nothing.

Archetype huh?...I don't know how to exactly describe. Honestly I don't have that much trouble getting in against most characters (I finally mastered the art of perfect shielding at a constant basis). As for trouble killing, Luigi doesn't have that either. Most characters require a read to get a decent kill (Pika, Sheik, RosaLuma, etc). He has so many kill moves that its laughable, especially considering his Usmash makes him invincible for a few frames and has low lag. Oh and he's range is decent. Pika's range is pretty bad on most attacks while Luigi's just right.

So in the end, what is he? I believe him to be a "Low speed combo machine" with punishing attributes thrown in. Tbh, there's no exact one for him.

Boss is pretty much looking like Ally. He can't kill unless he lands a smash attack and this holds his game back significantly. I mean, landing a smash attack isn't as easy as it sounds with bad mobility and people camping the **** out of this character. I think I've seen Mr. CC having trouble killing too. D-throw Cyclone was a fair kill setup but they decided to double nerf it anyway.

Luigi's range is horrendous outside of Fireball, not much of a question. He has no good burst mobility option nor good mobility specs to make up for it. His range is generally percieved as the worst in the game. Pika may have worse range (I'm unsure on this), but outranging one character doesn't make up being outranged by the other 50+ characters.

(Yes. Even Ryu has more range than Luigi. Shoryu's sweetspot is beyond generous, for one).

But I appreciate the inputs, guys.

 

[meleebrawler]

I feel like people have no reason to airdodge after D-throw. Jumping away often eliminates Luigi's followups to kill (Cyclone can't reach double jumping people). Same goes with U-tilt and N-air. Airdodging will get Luigi a chance to punish (In some cases, chance to FJP) but jump away and... Luigi can do nothing.


Boss is pretty much looking like Ally. He can't kill unless he lands a smash attack and this holds his game back significantly. I mean, landing a smash attack isn't as easy as it sounds with bad mobility and people camping the **** out of this character. I think I've seen Mr. CC having trouble killing too. D-throw Cyclone was a fair kill setup but they decided to double nerf it anyway.

Luigi's range is horrendous outside of Fireball, not much of a question. He has no good burst mobility option nor good mobility specs to make up for it. His range is generally percieved as the worst in the game. Pika may have worse range (I'm unsure on this), but outranging one character doesn't make up being outranged by the other 50+ characters.

(Yes. Even Ryu has more range than Luigi. Shoryu's sweetspot is beyond generous, for one).

But I appreciate the inputs, guys.

Well then, perhaps Luigi should steer clear of Final Destination, where it's easier to lame him out and land against him.

 

[TriTails]

Well then, perhaps Luigi should steer clear of Final Destination, where it's easier to lame him out and land against him.

Even with platforms, I don't see much benefit Luigi has. General mobility specs (floatiness, mainly. But also full hop height (Kinda)) don't let him abuse platforms as well as the others can. But I suppose they're better rather than... I dunno... lamed out by Sheik needles 'till you can't land at all.

But this is all theory, as FG is my training grounds (Nope. No tourneys nor players here. I wish I have). But from what I can observe, Luigis don't seem to abuse platforms, which in my hypothesis, the character himself isn't mobile enough to do so. Ally uses Battlefield platforms to camp or run away occasionally in such speed I imagine Luigi won't achieve. But if Luigi manages to get a grab on a platform, then it could result in a early kill.

(Yes, I've been watching Ally a lot. His Mario is fun to watch.)

 

[Green L]

As for trouble killing, Luigi doesn't have that either. Most characters require a read to get a decent kill (Pika, Sheik, RosaLuma, etc). He has so many kill moves that its laughable, especially considering his Usmash makes him invincible for a few frames and has low lag. Oh and he's range is decent. Pika's range is pretty bad on most attacks while Luigi's just right.

Uh do you even luigi? First off luigi does have problems getting killing otherwise he'd be top tier second yeah luigi has invincibility on his up smash but so do many other characters like mario, falcon, Game and the watch, sonic, fox, falco, etc. Third his range is BAD. Pathetic range on all of his melee attack except his grab. Last, Luigi DOESN'T have many ko options ANYMORE. He's only left with bair and up b even then back air is laggy and you can't depend on the small hitbox up b ko.

D-throw Cyclone was a fair kill setup but they decided to double nerf it anyway.

Down throw cyclone was actually a di read but everyone didn't learn and just di away from luigi's down throw everytime at high percent. Seriously, look up any Xandu tourney vid pre patch and watch as every opponent di away from down throw every single time at high percent. Down throw used to have many combos. Fast faller? Use down throw nair. Opponent di away? Use down throw back air. Opponent didn't tech on platform? Set up a fireball lock. I've given luigi several chances after the nerf but I feel sm4sh luigi is gimped by poor design. So many characters can do most of what luigi can but better but have none of luigi's BS. I never feel this way when I play luigi in melee.

 

[Yonder]

I've given luigi several chances after the nerf but I feel sm4sh luigi is gimped by poor design. So many characters can do most of what luigi can but better but have none of luigi's BS. I never feel this way when I play luigi in melee.

Luigi does have the best ratio of attack speed to combo ability in the game I'd say with Sheik close behind, so he doesn't get outclassed in everything. Even if Mario is better than Luigi now, at least Luigi can still kill better than Mario, which is around average killing power, maybe a tad more. He's not Duck Hunt or BJ killing power bad.

Luigi has a much rougher time with Marth and Sheik in Melee, moreso than anyone gives him trouble in this game..

 

[Green L]

Luigi does have the best ratio of attack speed to combo ability in the game I'd say with Sheik close behind,

False. Ryu, Yoshi, zss, kirby, mario and even dr mario has this.

Even if Mario is better than Luigi now, at least Luigi can still kill better than Mario, which is around average killing power, maybe a tad more. He's not Duck Hunt or BJ killing power bad.

Mario IS objectively better yes but you're wrong here. Luigi has much worse time killing. Worse up smash, weaker smashes, lower speed, abysmal mobility. Luigi cannot keep up with the majority of the cast.

 

[TriTails]

I think what Green L was saying is: What Luigi can do best (Comboing, damage racking), other characters can do just as well (Perhaps slightly worse) without Luigi's glaring weaknesses (Traction, mobility). Luigi's strengths are only a small margin above those below him, but his weaknesses are far, far below down.

Spoiler: Depressing stuffs people probably don't want to look at

And... yea, controversial opinion right here, but I think I agree. After playing Falcon, Mario, even Ganon for a bit, I think Luigi is simply too weak at this point. Being a combo machine don't exactly make up for trouble killing. Racking up damage quickly isn't a trait unique to Luigi, a lot of the cast have this 'I get in and I do lotsa damage'. Even if Luigi does it better, others do it much more consistently overall, and don't have to deal with all of Luigi's weaknesses: weak range, booty mobility, worst traction.

People praise his CQC ability, but if we look at the entirety of the paper here, there isn't much reason to be right in Luigi's face to begin with. You beat him by out-ranging and stuffing him with projectiles and disjoints. You can keep running away and Luigi can... do nothing.

Pre-patch Luigi was actually balanced despite the horrendously linear gameplay and bad design compared to what we have here. He moved slowly, but had the strength to make up for it. He had consistent combos, even until very high percents, unteched D-air spike can still combo into N-air. He had consistent kill setups, which emphasized his playstyle of 'get in and get rewarded'. He had trouble approaching the top tiers, but at least when he DID got in, he can bruise them to no end.

Post-patch Luigi has the same weakness, except for the fact he doesn't hit hard as he need to to begin with. Combos are now limited to mostly low to mid percents, and he loses every of his reliable kill setups. It's like Ganon, but decrease his power to Pit-like levels (Pardon the gross oversimplication, but you get the point). You can argue Fireballs, but after the patch that increased their end lag, they no longer traps noobs for a grab (Even then, Fireball + grab was never, ever a true combo. At best it was a mixup. Who top players fall for this when they know how to counter it?) and I would argue at that point, Smash 4 Luigi was the most balanced version of him.

Then patch 1.1.0 came and nerfed Luigi for no freaking logical reason. The character didn't even do well at nationals. If they were having problems with his design being too strong for low to mid level players, then buffs would've come in the Cloud patch. But no, they didn't.

The nerfs that came with buffs being absent led me to posting my post: What's Luigi's intended design now? Considering nerfs and buffs for other characters came with consideration to their designs, what can we make out of these nerfs? And since figuring out designs can tell us what to do in our gameplans, what's Luigi's gameplan now? I feel comboing people to hell back and forth and fish for U-smash is Luigi's gameplan, but then Mario flat out does this better because of his mobility, and the fact his combos aren't as limiting nor come out from few select of his moves. U-air can lead into U-tilts/U-airs. N-air can setup jab lock. B-air can set up WoP and again, jab lock. D-air leads into grabs. Freakin' laggy F-air spike leads into aerials (Even another spike). All throws except B-throw have notable followups. D-tilt and U-tilt both setups for both kills and combos. Jab can lead into grabs or even SJP. His kit feels 'flexible' and doesn't rely on a few select moves like Luigi (Luigi can only combo out of... I dunno, D-throw, U-tilt, N-air... maybe U-air if we somehow gets it, D-air spike) and that helps him stay unpredictable (Ally, for one, abuses this trait quite a bit).

His kit feels 'flowing' and... I honestly don't get that vibe when playing as Luigi unless people stay in my face the entire time without me actually approaching them (Which they have no reason to, because Luigi can't chase people).

I play Ganon, too. And he plays as he should. He is a slow tank but hits hard, REALLY hard. When I get in, I could even feel the pain of his blows. He is slow, like Luigi (Albeit, MUCH slower), but unlike Luigi, he is basically one of those characters who 'One or two hits and I can turn the tides'. Luigi, being a slow character, is emphasized on combos, which makes no sense to begin with. Being slow means you have to rely on people being close to you instead of you chasing them, but with most characters having decent mobility to just... drift away from our combos and setups, it feels infuriating sometimes when we can't keep our advantage consistent and scary.

This is all my thoughts, and I feel refreshed to have them out of my chest at last. Call me a bad player if you want, I am. I'm simply just expressing my thoughts and experience of this character, up to you whenether you agree or not. I feel like this character has little room to grow and has nowhere to go but down as the meta advances, but we'll see after the patches end, I suppose. But I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[Xephilon]

TriTails Yeah, no. We don't have to kill with smashes always. Have you tried RAR spaced Bair? Cyclone gimp? Jab -> Up b? Bthrow? Even with all of this we still have really powerful smash attacks. If you're getting camped easily, that means you need to practice perfect shielding and maneuvering. Also, we all know that Dthrow -> Cyclone wasn't fair in any way considering we can rack up damage to kill percent with just 2 or 3 throws. More to add, Luigi's range isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Again, spaced fair and bair are amazing. He out ranges plenty of the cast and, even if he doesn't, his moves come out fast enough to do so...Lastly, Luigi has a huge advantage on BF. Small stage makes it easier to be on their face, platforms make it easier to approach, Short hop Uairs are amazing pressure tool on someone on a platform since Luigi is floaty he can do Uairs per SH, etc.

G Green L Do I even Luigi? Let's see, I'm in top 50 in my region, considered the 2nd best Luigi (I lose to the #1 cause his fundamentals are on point). Reason why im not higher than top 50 despite being the 2nd best Luigi is because I don't have the time to always go to tourneys since I have a job but when I do, I always land top 8, most of the time top 4 on weekly/monthly tourneys. The real reason Luigi isn't top tier is because he has unreliable recovery that can be exploited among other little things (IMO). You're WAY wrong at the Usmash thing. People with INV up smash are Mario, Luigi, G&W and Lil Mac, No one else. Again, range isn't bad, your spacing just isn't perfect yet. "Luigi doesn't have that many KO options anymore" So Usmash, Dsmash, Fsmash, Bair, Bthrow, Cyclone, SJP and Nair don't count? Bair is laggy only if you land on it, otherwise, no end lag. You're supposed to space with it, not go in. SJP has a small hitbox but its mostly a punish tool. Takes time getting used to.

And to finish up, I can't believe some people are still complaining about a nerf that happened 2 patches ago...I honestly prefer Luigi this way. No more cheese kills, Tier *****es left, requires more skill and actually deserves respect. Instead of complaining, find ways to improve your game. This is a gameplay discussion thread, not a complaining one.

P.S. Sorry if I sound harsh, I don't mean to be.

 

[Xephilon]

I think what Green L was saying is: What Luigi can do best (Comboing, damage racking), other characters can do just as well (Perhaps slightly worse) without Luigi's glaring weaknesses (Traction, mobility). Luigi's strengths are only a small margin above those below him, but his weaknesses are far, far below down.

Spoiler: Depressing stuffs people probably don't want to look at

And... yea, controversial opinion right here, but I think I agree. After playing Falcon, Mario, even Ganon for a bit, I think Luigi is simply too weak at this point. Being a combo machine don't exactly make up for trouble killing. Racking up damage quickly isn't a trait unique to Luigi, a lot of the cast have this 'I get in and I do lotsa damage'. Even if Luigi does it better, others do it much more consistently overall, and don't have to deal with all of Luigi's weaknesses: weak range, booty mobility, worst traction.

People praise his CQC ability, but if we look at the entirety of the paper here, there isn't much reason to be right in Luigi's face to begin with. You beat him by out-ranging and stuffing him with projectiles and disjoints. You can keep running away and Luigi can... do nothing.

Pre-patch Luigi was actually balanced despite the horrendously linear gameplay and bad design compared to what we have here. He moved slowly, but had the strength to make up for it. He had consistent combos, even until very high percents, unteched D-air spike can still combo into N-air. He had consistent kill setups, which emphasized his playstyle of 'get in and get rewarded'. He had trouble approaching the top tiers, but at least when he DID got in, he can bruise them to no end.

Post-patch Luigi has the same weakness, except for the fact he doesn't hit hard as he need to to begin with. Combos are now limited to mostly low to mid percents, and he loses every of his reliable kill setups. It's like Ganon, but decrease his power to Pit-like levels (Pardon the gross oversimplication, but you get the point). You can argue Fireballs, but after the patch that increased their end lag, they no longer traps noobs for a grab (Even then, Fireball + grab was never, ever a true combo. At best it was a mixup. Who top players fall for this when they know how to counter it?) and I would argue at that point, Smash 4 Luigi was the most balanced version of him.

Then patch 1.1.0 came and nerfed Luigi for no freaking logical reason. The character didn't even do well at nationals. If they were having problems with his design being too strong for low to mid level players, then buffs would've come in the Cloud patch. But no, they didn't.

The nerfs that came with buffs being absent led me to posting my post: What's Luigi's intended design now? Considering nerfs and buffs for other characters came with consideration to their designs, what can we make out of these nerfs? And since figuring out designs can tell us what to do in our gameplans, what's Luigi's gameplan now? I feel comboing people to hell back and forth and fish for U-smash is Luigi's gameplan, but then Mario flat out does this better because of his mobility, and the fact his combos aren't as limiting nor come out from few select of his moves. U-air can lead into U-tilts/U-airs. N-air can setup jab lock. B-air can set up WoP and again, jab lock. D-air leads into grabs. Freakin' laggy F-air spike leads into aerials (Even another spike). All throws except B-throw have notable followups. D-tilt and U-tilt both setups for both kills and combos. Jab can lead into grabs or even SJP. His kit feels 'flexible' and doesn't rely on a few select moves like Luigi (Luigi can only combo out of... I dunno, D-throw, U-tilt, N-air... maybe U-air if we somehow gets it, D-air spike) and that helps him stay unpredictable (Ally, for one, abuses this trait quite a bit).

His kit feels 'flowing' and... I honestly don't get that vibe when playing as Luigi unless people stay in my face the entire time without me actually approaching them (Which they have no reason to, because Luigi can't chase people).

I play Ganon, too. And he plays as he should. He is a slow tank but hits hard, REALLY hard. When I get in, I could even feel the pain of his blows. He is slow, like Luigi (Albeit, MUCH slower), but unlike Luigi, he is basically one of those characters who 'One or two hits and I can turn the tides'. Luigi, being a slow character, is emphasized on combos, which makes no sense to begin with. Being slow means you have to rely on people being close to you instead of you chasing them, but with most characters having decent mobility to just... drift away from our combos and setups, it feels infuriating sometimes when we can't keep our advantage consistent and scary.

This is all my thoughts, and I feel refreshed to have them out of my chest at last. Call me a bad player if you want, I am. I'm simply just expressing my thoughts and experience of this character, up to you whenether you agree or not. I feel like this character has little room to grow and has nowhere to go but down as the meta advances, but we'll see after the patches end, I suppose. But I'm not getting my hopes up.

I think what Green L was saying is: What Luigi can do best (Comboing, damage racking), other characters can do just as well (Perhaps slightly worse) without Luigi's glaring weaknesses (Traction, mobility). Luigi's strengths are only a small margin above those below him, but his weaknesses are far, far below down.

Spoiler: Depressing stuffs people probably don't want to look at

And... yea, controversial opinion right here, but I think I agree. After playing Falcon, Mario, even Ganon for a bit, I think Luigi is simply too weak at this point. Being a combo machine don't exactly make up for trouble killing. Racking up damage quickly isn't a trait unique to Luigi, a lot of the cast have this 'I get in and I do lotsa damage'. Even if Luigi does it better, others do it much more consistently overall, and don't have to deal with all of Luigi's weaknesses: weak range, booty mobility, worst traction.

People praise his CQC ability, but if we look at the entirety of the paper here, there isn't much reason to be right in Luigi's face to begin with. You beat him by out-ranging and stuffing him with projectiles and disjoints. You can keep running away and Luigi can... do nothing.

Pre-patch Luigi was actually balanced despite the horrendously linear gameplay and bad design compared to what we have here. He moved slowly, but had the strength to make up for it. He had consistent combos, even until very high percents, unteched D-air spike can still combo into N-air. He had consistent kill setups, which emphasized his playstyle of 'get in and get rewarded'. He had trouble approaching the top tiers, but at least when he DID got in, he can bruise them to no end.

Post-patch Luigi has the same weakness, except for the fact he doesn't hit hard as he need to to begin with. Combos are now limited to mostly low to mid percents, and he loses every of his reliable kill setups. It's like Ganon, but decrease his power to Pit-like levels (Pardon the gross oversimplication, but you get the point). You can argue Fireballs, but after the patch that increased their end lag, they no longer traps noobs for a grab (Even then, Fireball + grab was never, ever a true combo. At best it was a mixup. Who top players fall for this when they know how to counter it?) and I would argue at that point, Smash 4 Luigi was the most balanced version of him.

Then patch 1.1.0 came and nerfed Luigi for no freaking logical reason. The character didn't even do well at nationals. If they were having problems with his design being too strong for low to mid level players, then buffs would've come in the Cloud patch. But no, they didn't.

The nerfs that came with buffs being absent led me to posting my post: What's Luigi's intended design now? Considering nerfs and buffs for other characters came with consideration to their designs, what can we make out of these nerfs? And since figuring out designs can tell us what to do in our gameplans, what's Luigi's gameplan now? I feel comboing people to hell back and forth and fish for U-smash is Luigi's gameplan, but then Mario flat out does this better because of his mobility, and the fact his combos aren't as limiting nor come out from few select of his moves. U-air can lead into U-tilts/U-airs. N-air can setup jab lock. B-air can set up WoP and again, jab lock. D-air leads into grabs. Freakin' laggy F-air spike leads into aerials (Even another spike). All throws except B-throw have notable followups. D-tilt and U-tilt both setups for both kills and combos. Jab can lead into grabs or even SJP. His kit feels 'flexible' and doesn't rely on a few select moves like Luigi (Luigi can only combo out of... I dunno, D-throw, U-tilt, N-air... maybe U-air if we somehow gets it, D-air spike) and that helps him stay unpredictable (Ally, for one, abuses this trait quite a bit).

His kit feels 'flowing' and... I honestly don't get that vibe when playing as Luigi unless people stay in my face the entire time without me actually approaching them (Which they have no reason to, because Luigi can't chase people).

I play Ganon, too. And he plays as he should. He is a slow tank but hits hard, REALLY hard. When I get in, I could even feel the pain of his blows. He is slow, like Luigi (Albeit, MUCH slower), but unlike Luigi, he is basically one of those characters who 'One or two hits and I can turn the tides'. Luigi, being a slow character, is emphasized on combos, which makes no sense to begin with. Being slow means you have to rely on people being close to you instead of you chasing them, but with most characters having decent mobility to just... drift away from our combos and setups, it feels infuriating sometimes when we can't keep our advantage consistent and scary.

This is all my thoughts, and I feel refreshed to have them out of my chest at last. Call me a bad player if you want, I am. I'm simply just expressing my thoughts and experience of this character, up to you whenether you agree or not. I feel like this character has little room to grow and has nowhere to go but down as the meta advances, but we'll see after the patches end, I suppose. But I'm not getting my hopes up.

Wow that is depressing...Anywho:
1) Find me another character that can do 70%+ from one throw and I'll believe you on the margin difference.
2) No one can rack damage like Luigi does, not even Sheik.
3) Most of the time I see you here, you're complaining on "How much worse Luigi is now" blah blah blah "Can do nothing against projectiles" blah blah blah "Just camp Luigi and easily win". It sounds so whiny and exaggerated...By all means lets play one. Use any character you like and I'll prove to you how much you're exaggerating (don't take this the wrong way though, not being a **** or anything). The only two characters that give me trouble are Marth and Sheik, everyone else I can deal. As long as there isn't too much lag of course.

 

[hey_there]

People with INV up smash are Mario, Luigi, G&W and Lil Mac, No one else.

Minor nitpick, but Mii Brawler . Otherwise I mostly agree with your points. Luigi would do better with cheese, like every character, but even without it he's still a strong character.

On the topic of Luigi's gameplay, fair -> fireball and fair -> dair AC in addition to fireball spacing typically form the basis of my neutral game. Fair ->Cyclone is also a good mix-up. It's not something to throw out constantly, but I like how cyclone pops them up for a juggle.

Getting the fair -> dair AC consistently has been a pain and the rewards for it haven't been as spectacular as I had hoped. Still, it's been pretty good. I've been mixing it up by doing it backwards and doing utilt as soon as I land so I get dair -> utilt. It also covers a rolling opponent well.

 

[Direspect only!]

CaN you tech luigi's throws? I was thrown downwards at 100%ish I believe and rolled before he even finished his throw end lag.

 

[Xephilon]

Well guys, I'm proud to say that I finally won my first tournament Luigi only! (Well with two Pika matches for practice in winner's finals but doesn't count since I used Luigi in GF). It was a weekly but still, the #5 best player in my region was there so it's still a BIG improvement! There were 20 entrants and I got to start on the second round instead of first.

First match: Against a Ganondorf. Rekt him to the point he said he wants to pick up Luigi again (He dropped him after the nerf) 2-0
Second match: Against a Marth. Personal friend of mine, tough MU but I pulled through with fireballs, reads and knowing when to get in. 2-0
Third match: Against a Sheik. Another personal friend but one of the best Sheiks I know. He's probably top 20 in our region. Has always given me trouble and I used to lose to him...a lot...BUT NOT THIS TIME! Pulled through, got some good reads and grabs and was able to gimp him with cyclone. He changed to Samus cause he knows I have trouble approaching but I got him anyways in the last stock with a pretty good string. 2-0
Winner's finals: Against the #5 player. I have a bad record with him (currently was 1-3). He's a Luigi main but says he hates the Luigi MU so he went his secondaries, ZSS and Diddy. I took the first game against ZSS, then I switched to Pika to make it even (Secondary vs Secondary). Won against the ZSS, then he switched to Diddy. He then proceeded to 3-0 me with him, 1 with Pika and 2 with Luigi. *Shame intensifies*
Loser's finals: Against the Sheik player again but he went his secondary, Metaknight. He's a good MK so I couldn't hold back and went Luigi, 3-0'd. Close matches though.
Grand Finals: This is it! My time to shine! I was nervous AF but determine and decided to stick with Luigi through thick and thin. He went full Diddy on this one. Lost the first, won the second, lost the third, won the 4th and 5th. Bracket Reset! Aw yeah! I was getting hyped at the thought of winning my first real tourney. He used Diddy again, I already figured out his movements so I was able to punish everything accordingly. He went ZSS, and I won again. He went back to Diddy and got him as well, 3-0'd!

In the end, what I'm trying to say is Luigi is still completely viable to solo main on tourneys is being underrated post-patch. If you truly like the Green Plumber, keep at him and improve your game. It'll be worth it.

Y Yonder I thought the same thing about the Cyclone gimp, that'll never be an optimal Luigi if I cant get height without the jump. That's not true, I can still gimp easily and survive fairly well despite not being able to get any height without a jump. Don't give up, just learn to gimp without floating so much.

 

[Mileo279]

Hello fellow luigi players the other day in training mode I found out that down throw to cyclone works but I feel it little more precise than be for with your jump. It works up to 110%. On some characters killed at 90. Please can someone test against a human and reply back here
Thank you

 

[Xephilon]

M Mileo279 We uhhh...kind of already knew that. The thing is, yes it does connect till about 110% but three things to keep in mind:
1) You need to double jump quickly in order someone which puts you in a disadvantage if you miss
2) They can DI away from Luigi after Dthrow making it impossible to connect
3) They can Smash DI out of the cyclone, especially if you try to carry them too high.

It works on casual players though, just requires good reading/bad DI.

 

[SalsaSavant]

Hey, I played against a Lugi online today, and something odd happened. I footstooled him while he was on the ground, and he moved forward quickly.

Look at it around 1:25

And I wasn't playing my best! Don't judge me based on this gameplay...

Anyway, here ya go.

 

[Süberr]

Okay I have been playing in locals with with Luigi for a couple months now. After the nerfs I'm still dedicated to the character but I'm having a couple problems with approaching and certain characters. Here are the characters im having problems with in general.

- This is by far my most annoying match up. It's hard to punish Sonic because of his speed. Also if I miss a punish I am almost gonna get punished 100%. I think I have to be more patient and play off reaction more than anything. If anyone has any tips on fighting Sonic, even the onvious because I might be missing something.

- Does anyone know how to recover when Falcon is just holding jab at the ledge. I get hit every time.

- I just can't approach. This isn't the For Glory ROBs that don't know what they are doing. Playing against a safe ROB in tourney is frustrating because I can't approach. I try to play patient but unless I perfect shield every laser and Gyro then I end up taking damage for free. Also what stages would be best for fighting him as well.

 

[Xephilon]

@Subber

- Use fireballs often if he uses spin dash a lot. It'll stop them mid way (unless he lets go at the start of the spin). This is more experience than just talking. For example, you can spot dodge Sonic's Neutral B and they have to hit a free Usmash. Just keep up your reaction, your projectiles and don't get frustrated. Lastly, shield a lot. Sonic loses a lot to shields and try to space well with Bair.

-Depends on the distance. Really close: Drop down and jump Uair. Semi-close: Jump out or drop down and jump fair. Distanced: Normal get up, jump Nair if he dashes in.

- My recommendation? Get a secondary. I have Pikachu for these types of match ups. If you wanna keep up with Luigi then yes, perfect shielding everything is a must and learn your oppoents habits asap. Some robs do Nair out of pressure or throw out of moves after a certain stimuli (like running in), learn when he does this and adapt. Honestly its a horrible MU for Luigi. As for stages, NO FLAT STAGE. No town and City and no FD. Lylat, Dreamland and Bf are your best bets.

If ya need anything else, let me know.

 

[CBO0tz]

I'm pretty good with Luigi, but I can tell I'm nowhere near good enough to be getting top 8 or 10th place in a tourney. The way the game works just doesn't allow it.

I can't deal with C. Falc's speed, its ridiculous when a safe player with good reads is using him. What are your guys' opinions on the Bowser/Cloud/DK Matchups? They're pretty troublesome for me because I can't kill any of them at kill percents and its hard to keep spacing with them.

 

[Xephilon]

@CB0tz

Opinions on the MUs:
- Relatively easy but not too easy. A good Bowser can abuse his range and such as its better than Luigis and making it troublesome but once Luigi gets a grab in, he can deal INSANE amount of damage due to Bowser having no combo breaker. Once he takes enough damage, you can zone him out with fireballs and pressure him to do unsafe things. As for killing, rely more Downward Fsmash for early kills or, better yet, J.C. Up B on his laggy moves. That's how I get my early kills in this MU.

- The easiest of the three mentioned. The only bad part about this MU is that, like Bowser, has a kill confirm at some percents against Luigi. Other than that, its easier than Bowser due to being able to use fireballs at the start of the match. Killing is still slightly hard but a well spaced Dair on his Up B nets easy kills.

- Pretty hard MU. Good speed, good combos and really good range. In the end, its at worst a 50/50. Sure he has a lot of things to fight Luigi with and gain the advantage but there's one thing he doesn't have, recovery. Even with Limit break, I've been able to gimp Clouds with Cyclone spike. Just shield often, his bad grab game makes it safe to do this, and wait for the right time to strike. Once you get used to MU, it gets easier.

If you need practice, let me know. I'd gladly help where I can.

 

[Yonder]

@CB0tz

Opinions on the MUs:
- Relatively easy but not too easy. A good Bowser can abuse his range and such as its better than Luigis and making it troublesome but once Luigi gets a grab in, he can deal INSANE amount of damage due to Bowser having no combo breaker. Once he takes enough damage, you can zone him out with fireballs and pressure him to do unsafe things. As for killing, rely more Downward Fsmash for early kills or, better yet, J.C. Up B on his laggy moves. That's how I get my early kills in this MU.

- The easiest of the three mentioned. The only bad part about this MU is that, like Bowser, has a kill confirm at some percents against Luigi. Other than that, its easier than Bowser due to being able to use fireballs at the start of the match. Killing is still slightly hard but a well spaced Dair on his Up B nets easy kills.

- Pretty hard MU. Good speed, good combos and really good range. In the end, its at worst a 50/50. Sure he has a lot of things to fight Luigi with and gain the advantage but there's one thing he doesn't have, recovery. Even with Limit break, I've been able to gimp Clouds with Cyclone spike. Just shield often, his bad grab game makes it safe to do this, and wait for the right time to strike. Once you get used to MU, it gets easier.

If you need practice, let me know. I'd gladly help where I can.

I'd argue DK is harder than Bowser, DK is faster, kill confirm as you mentioned, his bair murders Luigi off stage, and his long limbs have more range than Bowser, keeping Luigi out. I think he can jab cancel fireballs, not 100% sure on that one...

 

[Xephilon]

Actually, Bowser is the 17th fastest in the game while DK is the 20th fastest. Any Bair murders Luigi off stage (DK's bair is better than Bowser's though). The reason why I put DK as easier is because of the fireballs. Yes, DK can jab cancel them but Bowser can run through them, meaning you can't keep your distance when at a disadvantage. Also, Bowser is more unpredictable thanks to hurtbox shifting in his moves, making him a tougher opponent, while DK has more sluggish movements. This is all my opinion though, some might have easier time the other way around.

P.S. Nice Pic, looks like someone is a fan of SMBZ xD