The Lucario Frame Data Project

[phi1ny3]

K, do you know how many other character boards have an official "frame thread"? Also, do you know how many people have asked "how much is roll in invincibility frames"? Well, I've decided that the Lucario boards should take the initiative and make one! Post in data for frames, and I'll add it on if it's correct.

Here are some notes/miscellaneous things you should know before reading:

I'm now doing this the right way, via Project Smash Attacks! Unfortunately, I had to use some of my old data on the "chargeable" attacks, since they don't record those in PSA Got another system that works yeeeeee.

Also, there's a large misunderstanding about the word "Autocancel". Aerials like Ike/Lucario nair actually don't autocancel like we thought it did. It just has very low landing lag. Autocancel is in nearly every aerial at the beginning and end, unless it has IASA frames like Peach's.

Now how was this tested? RJ actually had the right idea, so I followed suit with his method:

All moves have been tested on equal stocks on opponent, at 0 percent. It should be stated that Lucario depending on his percent, will either have more or less hitstun/shieldstun to his opponent, therefore having a less advantage, or an increased advantage. This test is to determine the least amount of hit stun possible while having the same stock count as your opponent.

Also, keep in mind that this isn't the only determining factor in move's being safe. Shield push takes into account as well.

Hitstun tested by: Marth Using Up-B on each frame after Lucario initiated a move. (Debug code)
Shieldstun test by: Debug code and Frame Advance w/ D-Pad code (to move the attack frame by frame)
(Dis)Advantage tested by: Debug code and Frame Advance w/ D-Pad code (to move the attack frame by frame)

**Attack Moves (A-Moves)**

Jabs

Jab1
Hitbox on frame: 6
Hitbox ends on frame: 9
IASA: 10
Complete on frame: 20
(Dis)Advantage: -8
Shieldstun: 5
Hitstun: 18

Jab2
Hitbox on frame: 9
Hitbox ends on frame: 12
IASA: 13
Complete on frame: 22
(Dis)Advantage: -7
Shieldstun: 6
Hitstun: 21

Jab3
Hitbox on frame: 9
Hitbox ends on frame: 14
Complete on frame: 40
(Dis)Advantage: -24
Shieldstun: 8
Hitstun: 35




Tilts

Ftilt
1st Hit Box on frame: 12
1st Hit Box ends on frame: 14
2nd Hit Box on frame: 15
2nd Hit Box ends on frame: 19
Completes on frame: 29
(Dis)Advantage: -6
Shieldstun: 17
Hitstun: 24

Utilt
Hit Box on frame: 5
Hit Box ends on frame: 15
Completes on frame: 32
(Dis)Advantage: (Front)-14 Back (-22)
Shieldstun: 8
Hitstun: 29

Dtilt
Hit Box on frame: 9
Hit Box ends on frame: 15
Completes on frame: 25
(Dis)Advantage: -8
Shieldstun: 8
Hitstun: 28


Smashes

Fsmash
Minimum Charge delay: +2
Hit Box on frame: 21
Hit Box ends on frame: 30
IASA: 36
Complete on frame: 43
(Dis)Advantage: -13
Shieldstun: 12
Hitstun: 27

Usmash
Minimum Charge Delay: +13
Hit Box 1 on frame: 12
Hit Box 2 on frame: 17
Hit Box ends on frame: 35
Completes on frame: 56
(Dis)Advantage: -36
Shieldstun: 11
Hitstun: 30

Dsmash
Minimum Charge Delay: +2
Hit Box on frame: 17
Hit Box ends on frame: 23
Completes on frame: 48
(Dis)Advantage: -22
Shieldstun: 12
Hitstun: 29


**Special Moves (B-moves)**

Aura Sphere
time for ASC hitbox to appear (assuming it's charged to the point to have a hitbox):
tick "activates" on frame: 52
fully charged AS on: 120
Hit Box on frame: 20 (if shot at the earliest possible, hitting B twice)
Hitbox on (from charge stance): 7
Shoot lag ends on frame: 49
AS (Full)
(Dis)Advantage: -11
Shieldstun: 15
Hitstun: 33

BAS
(Dis)Advantage: -15
Shieldstun: 8
Hitstun: 16


Extreme Speed
Starts on frame: 30
total time (ground to ground): 68
total time (ground to air): 78
time to go into fallspecial: 4

Force Palm
Grab Starts On frame: 9
Grab hits on frame: 28
Grab ends on frame: 43
Hit Box on frame: 24
Hit Box ends on frame: 25
Completes on frame: 40
FP Flame
(Dis)Advantage: -27
Note: If you prime this within 8 frames of landing, you will get the grab hitbox to come out on frame 1. I thought that this wasn't the case, but you literally have a FRAME 1 FORCE PALM. AWESOME

Double Team
Hit Box on frame: 6
Completes on frame: 81
Invincibility Frame(s): 6-36
Actual slide starts (after activation): 26


**Aerial Moves**

Nair
Hit Box 1 out on: 6
Hit Box 2 out on: 8
Hit Box 2 in on: 24
Complete on: 68

Fair
Hit Box on frame: 7
Hit Box in on:21
Completes on frame: 27

Bair
Hit Box out on frame: 15
Hit Box 2 out on frame: 18
Hit Box 2 in on frame: 29
IASA: 33
Completes on frame: 49

Uair
Hit Box on frame: 10
Hitbox in on frame: 22
IASA: 26
Completes on frame: 38

Dair
Hit Box 1 out on: 4
Hit Box 1 in on: 7
Hit Box 2 out on: 11
Hit Box 2 in on: 14
IASA: 24
Complete on: 29

**Misc Moves**

Jump
Starts on frame: 6

Roll Forward
Invulnerable on Frame: 4
Vulnerable on Frame: 19
Complete on Frame: 27

Roll Backward
Invulnerable on Frame: 4
Vulnerable on Frame: 19
Complete on Frame: 27

Air Dodge
Invulnerable on: 4
Vulnerable on: 29
Complete on: 39

Spot Dodge
Invulnerable on: 2
Vulnerable on: 20
Complete on: 25

Dash Attack
1st Hit Box on frame: 7
2nd Hitbox on frame: 10
Hitbox ends on frame: 18
Complete on frame: 35
(Dis)Advantage: -18
Shieldstun:
Hitstun: 28

Grab (standing)
Hit Box on frame: 6
Hit Box ends on: 8
Complete on: 29

Grab (dash)
Hit Box on frame: 8
Hit Box ends on: 10
Complete on: 29

Grab (Pivot)
Hit Box on frame: 9
Hit Box ends on: 11
Complete on: 30

Grab Pummel
Hit Box on frame:2
Hit Box ends on frame: 2
Complete on frame: 8?
Note: I'm having issues with this merely b/c PSA doesn't account for hitlag, so it might be shorter/longer, but will get this soon

Fthrow
Hit Box on frame: 4
Completes on frame: 22

Bthrow
Hit Box on frame: 14
Completes on frame: 36

Uthrow
Hit Box on frame: 16
Hit Box 2 on frame: 17
Hit Box ends on frame: 18
Completes on frame: 38
(Dis)Advantage: +9
Shieldstun:
Hitstun: 31

Dthrow
Hit Box on frame: 36
Completes on frame: 37

Ledge getup < 100% (incomplete)
Invincible frames throughout until frame: 30
Able to input a move on frame: 36

Ledge getup > 100% (incomplete)
Invincible frames throughout until frame: 56
Able to input a move on frame: 60

Ledge attack < 100%
Invincible frames start on: 13
Invincible frames end on: 17
Hitbox on frame: 17
Completes on frame: 56

Ledge attack > 100%
Invincible frames throughout until frame: 40
Hitbox on frame: 35
Hitbox leaves on frame: 40
Completes on frame: 70

Ledge roll < 100%
Invincible frames throughout until frame: 30
Able to input a different move/Completes on frame: 50

Ledge roll > 100%
Invincible frames until frame: 65
able to input a move on frame: 80

Note: Item toss data is the same for ground and air, unless an exception is noted.

Item Drop
Item dropped on frame: 6
IASA: 24 (25 in the air)

Light Item Forward Toss
Item Thrown on frame: 8
IASA: 24

Light Item Backward Toss
Turns around on frame: 4
Item thrown on frame: 10
IASA: 24 (25 in the air)

Light Item Upward Toss
Item thrown on frame: 12
IASA: 24

Light Item Downward Toss
Item thrown on frame: 7
IASA: 20

Light Item Dash Toss
Item thrown on frame: 5
IASA: 27

"Heavy" Item Forward Toss
Item thrown on frame: 20

"Heavy" Item Backward Toss
Item thrown on frame: 20

"Heavy" Item Upward Toss
Item thrown on frame: 14

"Heavy" Item Downward Toss
Item thrown on frame: 13

"Downed" Stand Up
Intangible until frame: 22

"Downed" Attack
Invincible on frame: 16
Attack 1 begins on frame: 16
Attack 1 ends on frame: 18
Attack 2 begins on frame: 20
Attack 2 ends on frame: 22
Invincibility ends on frame: 22

"Downed" Forward Roll
Intangible until frame: 22

"Downed" Backward Roll
Intangible until frame: 22

"Trip" Get Up
Intangible until frame: 18

"Trip" Attack
Invincible until frame: 8
Attack 1 begins on frame: 19
Attack 1 ends on frame: 21
Attack 2 begins on frame: 28
Attack 2 ends on frame: 30
IASA: 50

"Trip" Forward Roll
Intangible until frame: 10
IASA: 29

"Trip" Backward Roll
Intangible until frame: 10
IASA: 29

Utaunt
Completes on frame: 80

Ftaunt
Completes on frame: 110

Dtaunt
Completes on frame: 100



Now for the sake of SCIENCE!, iirc, the human eye processes at about 24-30 fps, so that gives you a good indicator of what's going on. The average Joe can react at about frame 10, although usually higher than so.

 

[Tyrael64]

Even better, we should try to get the hitbox data. Back in Melee, they managed to use Action Replay to get hitbox bubbles for Ganondorf, Ness, etc. Now that we've cracked Brawl, we should be able to do the same, right? I suspect Lucario's hitboxes will surprise even us.

 

[Browny]

check the general discussion smash lab thread + sonic guide thread, im working on it re: hitboxes

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6147182#post6147182
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6101142#post6101142

its very difficult so im gonna need a lot of help Ill do lucario's one i figure out how the hell to do Sonic's first, normal hitboxes are much easier than lingering ones lol

 

[phi1ny3]

Ya, I posted on it on smash lab.
Yes, I figured lingering hitboxes would get scary, lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Content removed to lighten my internet footprint.

 

[tedward2000]

Heh, this is the 3rd time these numbers have been posted for this.

And this will proly be the first time they are super accurate.

I had an idea for timbers version of this. Lemme try to remember it. Something to do with %'s...
I'll get on that.
-t2

 

[Kevvviiinnn]

do boswer plz kthx

 

[Kitamerby]

Frame 2 for Double Team? Seriously? Are you sure about that?

I'm a bit unsure of that, since we've all had the whole "sound effect comes out, you see a flash, but Luc gets hit" problem at least once. Marth's Counter is almost definitely quicker, I thought.

 

[phi1ny3]

Frame 2 for Double Team? Seriously? Are you sure about that?

I'm a bit unsure of that, since we've all had the whole "sound effect comes out, you see a flash, but Luc gets hit" problem at least once. Marth's Counter is almost definitely quicker, I thought.

fixed. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm wondering if any1 has other data to point out or add. Suggestions?

 

[Deleted member]

Content removed to lighten my internet footprint.

 

[Sudai]

How exactly are you guys going about testing the Frame Data? Didn't see that anywhere and it'd be useful to know so others can check for accuracy.

 

[phi1ny3]

How exactly are you guys going about testing the Frame Data? Didn't see that anywhere and it'd be useful to know so others can check for accuracy.

My school took part in an experiment with a program known as "Dartfish". It is an video based program that allows for good detailed analysis of athletes (its used in the olympics, and costs lots o' money). Our school got a good discount on it, provided that we find uses and applications for it besides the athletic field. I've been one of the coordinators with some of the teachers who have been working with this software (like using it to show correct posture and confidence in speeches in English classes, etc.) Since it works in fps, it works well for my needs to record data like this (I'm sure this isn't how most people do it, so I'm actually not sure, unless you have Dartfish). I'm pretty sure there are programs (I think usbgecko can do some) that can do this.

 

[tedward2000]

*whistles*
Wow Phil, thats really cool. And the schools letting you use it for something like Brawl?
XD
-t2

 

[phi1ny3]

*whistles*
Wow Phil, thats really cool. And the schools letting you use it for something like Brawl?
XD
-t2

Naw, but I have early release 5th period, and on my computer in the back room, I can do whatever I like, even Battlefront II/AOE/ (insert computer game here), just as long as it isn't too distracting and its not uber forbidden. But I use it in my spare time occasionally (it helps me get more acquainted with the program if I find unorthodox uses for the tools, like, say Brawl frame data?), among my other computer programs I learn (like java, C# [aka, coding heaven with some of the best user friendly tools ever!], VB, etc.)

 

[Sudai]

Ah, I gotcha Phi. Thanks for the explanation. ^_^

 

[Tyrael64]

Now THAT is SCIENCE!

 

[phi1ny3]

Question: I have the information about AS, but I don't know what kind of format I want to put it in. Should I go detailed in how many frames both BAS and AS last (so it gives an idea for how far it travels), or just do when it launches? Should I include ASC (for Milln's sake)?

 

[phi1ny3]

How would I get this stickied?

 

[Browny]

PM a mod

preferably one that is actually active. you can tell by seeing how often they reply in their visitor message board and if theyve sticikied others before

that said, i dont know if this actually qualifies for a sticky since its not like people new to lucario are going to read it when they first sign up etc

 

[phi1ny3]

PM a mod

preferably one that is actually active. you can tell by seeing how often they reply in their visitor message board and if theyve sticikied others before

that said, i dont know if this actually qualifies for a sticky since its not like people new to lucario are going to read it when they first sign up etc

I guess, but almost all the boards I go to, they have a stickied frame thread. Maybe I should add IASA equations (like the marth ones) so that it is easier to see which ones are better against shields?

 

[culexus・wau]

Just wondering Phi1, but is there any way to find the Shieldstun & Hitstun frames using this method?

O:

 

[phi1ny3]

Just wondering Phi1, but is there any way to find the Shieldstun & Hitstun frames using this method?

O:

Yes and no. Yes, there is a formula that I am going to be tapping into when I have the time (I'm having college/extracurricular stuff happening, so that's my john ^_^ ' )

 

[Browny]

Phil, how did you go about finding these 'hitbox in' values.

Its just that usmash and uair seem to have very short-lasting lingering hitboxes according to your numbers, i was expecting around 15 and 30 frames respectively. but idk, just guessing

 

[phi1ny3]

*about to look at frame data*
I might have inputed it wrong, but usmash has 22 frames according to my data.
about uair: yes, I know this one is innaccurate. It has only like 7 frames, but just to let you know, the hitbox is deceiving because it is usually the range of the aerial that is reliable, not the duration per se. still, 7 is a little too little.

 

[phi1ny3]

Bad news guys, since my Wii is gone, I don't have much ability to get frame data video, even though I can still analyze it. Does someone have the data for the other jabs? (I have some on AS, just need to put it up though).

 

[iRJi]

So, by this information on AS, the first standing hitbox is on frame one?

 

[phi1ny3]

So, by this information on AS, the first standing hitbox is on frame one?

Yeah, the charging attack (when you get your opponent in the charge) is on frame one, even though it doesn't attack the opponents until about .7 seconds-ish. If you pulled out the charge at its halfway mark, it would damamge the opponent on contact, because of the quick speed of the charge damage. It doesn't mean the AS comes out on frame one, just the charge attack attacks on frame one. I have to put "tick damage activates on:" to show when that does actually attack via charge, but once activated, like I said, it should come out on frame one.

 

[iRJi]

Hmm... Interesting... I might be able to make something broken out of that... Need to test =D

 

[Omnath]

Nair kills me off stage sometimes because I accidently hit it. Any thoughts as to how to fix that? (Too many frames makes me miss the ledge and go pretty far down)

 

[DarkDragoon]

Nair kills me off stage sometimes because I accidently hit it. Any thoughts as to how to fix that? (Too many frames makes me miss the ledge and go pretty far down)

o_o...Don't do NAir by accident? Seems like the best way to fix it.
-DD

 

[phi1ny3]

Hmm... Interesting... I might be able to make something broken out of that... Need to test =D

Yeah, Milln loves ASC for it's shield pressure properties and sometimes uses it as a mix up surprise tactic when they are expecting a fair.

Nair kills me off stage sometimes because I accidently hit it. Any thoughts as to how to fix that? (Too many frames makes me miss the ledge and go pretty far down)

You usually don't want to use nair offstage in the first place, but if you do, ES tends to break out of it's end frames earlier, but since you only want to use ES as a last resort, It's usually better to go for bair for a more powerful edgeguarding aerial.

 

[iRJi]

No no no, not for the AS Cancel... I have something else in mind... If it works Ill let you know. =]

 

[phi1ny3]

No no no, not for the AS Cancel... I have something else in mind... If it works Ill let you know. =]

ASC = Aura Sphere Charge as well.

 

[jog]

can someone begin to explain the properties of lucario's up-smash? the hit box is just ridiculous. or is it just one of those unknown mysteries of the universe?

 

[Kitamerby]

can someone begin to explain the properties of lucario's up-smash? the hit box is just ridiculous. or is it just one of those unknown mysteries of the universe?

It's pretty slow, but its range vertically as well as sheer power is what makes it worth it in a way. Jokes aside, the move seems to start off behind him at his feet about a lucario head away (this has the power of the full power strike iirc), then swirls up into his paw, at which point his entire body becomes a hitbox, and then is released through his hands as the aura burst, which outprioritizes every single aerial option (dairs, specials, etc) without invincibility frames iirc, meaning nobody can touch you from above unless they come at an angle of like 45 degrees, but even then I'm not sure, it might hit still. Once the aura burst is released, it stays there until the end of the animation, although once the aura burst is released and begins to disappear, the hitbox becomes considerably weaker. I believe though that once the aura starts to dissipate, the hitbox seems to continue swirling down his body(which is still a hitbox) and pops up right in front of his feet about a lucario-head away, which appears to have vertical height going up to his shin, I believe. This hit has the power of the weak hitbox.


In other words, imagine an upside-down lower-case delta symbol, and that's the path of his Aura, except his body stays as a hitbox the entire time, and half-way through the path it becomes considerably weaker.

Oh, and I'm sure all of us have at least one story to share about the magical hitboxes. One time for me, I accidentally whiffed an usmash, and Ike walked over to me, started charging fsmash, and out of nowhere he got hit by one of the hitboxes and died. Another time, I accidentally used Usmash against a Marf, so he tipper Fsmashed me, AND HIS FSMASH CLANKED WITH USMASH's BODY HITBOX, meaning that Usmash's body box basically saved me in an amazing way. Lucario watches over and protects his followers, young one. Remember that.

 

[A New England Winter]

Phil, can you do me a favor and find out how long UTaunt lasts? Like when it ends and what not?

 

[Milln]

"Aura Sphere:
start tick on: 1
Gains full charge status : 52
throw starts on frame: 19"

I'm fairly certain that Aura sphere doesn't do damage immediately upon button press, even if you're inside Lucario. Also, if you cancel it as soon as you can with shield, Lucario will not charge the sphere at all.

can someone begin to explain the properties of lucario's up-smash? the hit box is just ridiculous. or is it just one of those unknown mysteries of the universe?

Just in case Kita is tl;dr.

The hitbox moves up Lucario's back and extends away from him a slight amount, then releases a cone above him from his paw that quickly narrows. It's strong at first, but then grows weaker. Lucario's body is a hitbox and there is no hitbox immediately in front of him.

 

[Timbers]

Don't think AS hitbox comes out till frame 40 or somethin like that. Don't think it only takes less than a second to go to full charge either lol.

 

[Browny]

yes there is

have wolf fsmash while lucario is doing a usmash, the usmash wins