The Lucario Frame Data Project

[Timbers]

Fsmash in front of him or behind him DJ?

I know wolf's fsmash is trash priority but I didn't think it was that bad.

 

[phi1ny3]

Don't think AS hitbox comes out till frame 40 or somethin like that. Don't think it only takes less than a second to go to full charge either lol.

I didn't do say that the AS tick hitbox is on frame one, just that when it is out (like if you have a partially charged sphere and you try to attack via charge) it attacks on that frame. Also, the hitbox "activates" on 52.

Hey guys, the bad news is that all my video feeds have been wiped off the school computer that I was working on (it was donated to a teacher while I was gone), so if you have any feeds from like a 60 fps camera or anything like that, that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Browny]

in front of lucario to stop the fsmash. although iirc, it will only win during the later part of the attack while the hitbox is lingering

 

[Milln]

I didn't do say that the AS tick hitbox is on frame one, just that when it is out (like if you have a partially charged sphere and you try to attack via charge) it attacks on that frame. Also, the hitbox "activates" on 52.

Hey guys, the bad news is that all my video feeds have been wiped off the school computer that I was working on (it was donated to a teacher while I was gone), so if you have any feeds from like a 60 fps camera or anything like that, that would be greatly appreciated.

It's still very confusing. I'm not even sure what you mean anymore. O,o

yes there is

have wolf fsmash while lucario is doing a usmash, the usmash wins

If Wolf fsmashes into a Lucario doing upsmash from the front and loses, that does not mean that there is a hitbox IN FRONT of Lucario. It means that Lucario's body is a hitbox.

 

[Browny]

ok think about this...

When two ground attacks hit each other, they should always clank provided they do within 10%. even disjointed ike fsmash will clank with falcons fsmash. This applies to disjoint vs disjoint, disjoint vs non disjoint and non disjoint vs non disjoint. no matter how close you stand to an enemy, even double disjoints will clank (snake utilt vs snake utilt).

So then how come wolfs fsmash will always lose to lucarios usmash lingering hitbox? its most definitely not losing on the 10% limit since the fsmash does more damage, and they are both ground attacks so they should always clank no matter what.

I've said this before (a long time ago) I think the front of lucarios body may be invincible to some extent. Watch what happens when you use any characters ground attacks to cancel out a dins fire. the attack will be stopped in its place, its most obvious with snakes utilt, as usual. However lucario can usmash, cancel out a dins fire, and still remain in the usmash animation, never flinching

or is it more simpler than that >_>

 

[Milln]

ok think about this...

When two ground attacks hit each other, they should always clank provided they do within 10%. even disjointed ike fsmash will clank with falcons fsmash. This applies to disjoint vs disjoint, disjoint vs non disjoint and non disjoint vs non disjoint. no matter how close you stand to an enemy, even double disjoints will clank (snake utilt vs snake utilt).

So then how come wolfs fsmash will always lose to lucarios usmash lingering hitbox? its most definitely not losing on the 10% limit since the fsmash does more damage, and they are both ground attacks so they should always clank no matter what.

I've said this before (a long time ago) I think the front of lucarios body may be invincible to some extent. Watch what happens when you use any characters ground attacks to cancel out a dins fire. the attack will be stopped in its place, its most obvious with snakes utilt, as usual. However lucario can usmash, cancel out a dins fire, and still remain in the usmash animation, never flinching

or is it more simpler than that >_>

I'm not even talking about any of that. I'm saying that the hitbox isn't in front of Lucario, it's ON Lucario. O,o

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Wow... I've never really thought about the frame-by-frame animations of the game... you guys take it up to the next level... I knew that they existed, but still, this is incredible. Now I feel like a scrubb... ;.;

I did remember a time where the effects of the upsmash staying saved me once. Toonlink trying to come at me with a bomb in his hand, but he hit too early and the upsmash hit him, made him drop his bomb on himself, and blew up the bomb, while Lucario was still smashing up. It looked like he was waving goodbye.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Dash attack is missing.

 

[phi1ny3]

Started on Dash attack since I forgot it.
btw, does someone have lots of lucario video feeds for attacks? I can't seem to find mine, so if someone could put them on an uploading site or whatever, that would be greatly appreciated (since I haven't been able to do shield/IASA, it would be good to do videos involving that as well, although I might be able to use Timber's YT video for fsmash IASA if it runs at decent frame speed).

 

[phi1ny3]

Edited some dodge frame info, I think there's a little problem with my computer lagging up, lol.
Also, now has SCIENCE!

 

[phi1ny3]

Started some grab frame stuff (including dash grab/pivot grab).
Need sum clips, and since I'm going off to college, I won't be able to use Dartfish at the high school for much longer T.T

 

[ckm]

Nair kills me off stage sometimes because I accidently hit it. Any thoughts as to how to fix that? (Too many frames makes me miss the ledge and go pretty far down)

dont use nair unless:

1) you are going to land on the ground shortly after
or
2) you you want to lose

There are only a couple situations in which I don't fastfall this arial... and they are pretty situational:

1) platform pressure (it has good knockback and shield pressure)
2) oos vs large opponents (rare)


Oh wait, I thought of one more use.... if you are REALLY high above the stage and off the edge, and you can use this to finish a combo, but youd better hope it lands because you will probably get gimped if it doesnt. But it can kill that way.

 

[ckm]

question:

does a pivot always take the same length of time, regardless of the move being pivoted?

Like b-reversals, turnaround b, pivot grabs, pivot side b, etc... do all those pivots take the same length of time (and then just add the startup from the move)?

and how long does a pivot take? im assuming all characters have the same pivot speed?

 

[iRJi]

question:

does a pivot always take the same length of time, regardless of the move being pivoted?

Like b-reversals, turnaround b, pivot grabs, pivot side b, etc... do all those pivots take the same length of time (and then just add the startup from the move)?

and how long does a pivot take? im assuming all characters have the same pivot speed?

No, A characters pivot grab has different speeds, and its not the same for each character either. The speed for pivot grabs can differ for each character (Although most are the same).
As for the exact frames I actually forgot XD. That you will have to find on your own, unless someone else here knows the data.

 

[phi1ny3]

Not all pivots are equal. Marth's dash frames are pretty long, so his has some particularly interesting effects. Lucario's is pretty good, but I usually like it when I land behind my opponent after aerialling them.

 

[ckm]

well thats what I'm talking about.

Say I just did a dair above d3's shield, then fastfall an airdodge and land behind d3, both of us facing away. If we both buffer a pivot grab pivot grab at the same time, who will win?

And, using the same scenario, would it be faster to use pivot side b? I mean, I know side b takes longer to come out, but does the pivot time faster/slower/or the same as the pivot grab.

Also, I wasn't as much referring to the dashing pivot grab, but that is interesting stuff too. I was more just talking about the standing pivot...

I am mostly concerned about landing and buffering a pivot as I land, since lucario's running speed sucks so freakin bad.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

According to this thread, DDD's pivot grab comes out sooner than Lucci's.

Also to my knowledge you can't do a pivot grab with Force Palm.

 

[ckm]

Stauffenberg, i'm not referring to a running pivot grab. maybe I'm using improper terminology? just a turnaround side b, not a running pivot side b (which is indeed impossible, as far as I know)

 

[iRJi]

Standing pivot does not make sense lol, since you need to move to make it a pivot. Also in D3's case, if you use your normal pivot grab, D3 will get your first since his is faster then others. But if you use the SideB, you will grab first.

The reason why is this. Both your grab and SideB have a grab box on frame 6. If you use your normal pivot grab, the grab box comes out later then D3's therefor he will grab you first. But, if you use SideB, the grab comes out at the same time even if you short pivot run into it, therefor it will beat out D3 if you are in range for the grab box to connect.

 

[phi1ny3]

Wow, that's a nice thread of data.
The only problem is, some characters either don't have a good way to transition into it, don't get a good slide, or don't get a good length to use pivot grab. D3 tends to fall in most of those categories, although his grab is fast.
And yes, you don't get a special "pivot" animation when doing FP, as opposed to a pivot grab when doing it right.
I've always wondered this, but does pivot grabbing boost vertical grab range a bit? That would be interesting.
tl;dr version: pivot grab is not to replace normal grab (unless your like marth or something, lol MK's ground options are moot vs. marth's pivot grab). You either transition for more guaranteed results, or punish spot dodging/predictable or poor approaches. Which is why it's kind of helpful in the D3 match, since if you land behind him, he'll usually spotdodge after you land.

 

[iRJi]

Wow, that's a nice thread of data.
The only problem is, some characters either don't have a good way to transition into it, don't get a good slide, or don't get a good length to use pivot grab. D3 tends to fall in most of those categories, although his grab is fast.
And yes, you don't get a special "pivot" animation when doing FP, as opposed to a pivot grab when doing it right.
I've always wondered this, but does pivot grabbing boost vertical grab range a bit? That would be interesting.
tl;dr version: pivot grab is not to replace normal grab (unless your like marth or something, lol MK's ground options are moot vs. marth's pivot grab). You either transition for more guaranteed results, or punish spot dodging/predictable or poor approaches.

To my knowledge it actually does boost the vertical range, but only the range that is directly above his hands when the grab is active. Also its a small boost, still useful, but small.

Edit: Also, I have brought this up before, but out guide to Lucario is pretty out dated. If anyone else is up for it, we should redo the thread, but give different parts to different people.

Edithil, For the listing of the moves, can you please bold then type of move it is, and under line it. Also can you change the order to have the move list starting with the the start of the move, then hitbox, then completion. I think it will stand out more clear and also be a bit neater. PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ *Puppy dog eyes*

 

[iRJi]

Double Posting.

We need to fix this up lol. Ill see if i Can come up with a Format that is simple.

 

[hough123]

Double Posting.

We need to fix this up lol. Ill see if i Can come up with a Format that is simple.

I'm good with formats, I can PM you a sample of one if you'd like.

 

[iRJi]

I'm good with formats, I can PM you a sample of one if you'd like.

Already almost done XD. I took my format for my aggressive thread and just applied it to this one, came out neat lol.

Ok here is the format.

**Attack Moves (A-Moves)**

Tilts

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Smashes

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

**Special Moves (B-moves)**

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):


**Ariel Moves**

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

**Misc Moves**

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

Move
Starts On frame:
Hit Box on frame:
Completes on frame:
Invincibility Frame(s):
Super Armor Frame(s):

The Misc moves are things like Roll dodge and air dodge. I think its simple, no?

 

[hough123]

I like it =)
It could use the lists I sent you though

 

[Browny]

my frame data went like this...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196148

we know none of lucarios attacks have SA or invincibility (except DT during activation) so theres not much point in putting it for all of them. I also feel its important to show which attacks are safer. for example, im sure not too many people know whether a dtilt or utilt is safer on block...

another thing, the whole 'starts on frame' business is used on many other character boards but i feel its completely redundant. All attacks begin their animation on frame 1, and saying the attack starts on frame 10 but the hitbox comes out on frame 11 is just pointless. its not like the first 9 frames were interruptable. that detail is only useful for attacks with invincible or SA frames.

 

[iRJi]

my frame data went like this...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196148

we know none of lucarios attacks have SA or invincibility (except DT during activation) so theres not much point in putting it for all of them. I also feel its important to show which attacks are safer. for example, im sure not too many people know whether a dtilt or utilt is safer on block...

another thing, the whole 'starts on frame' business is used on many other character boards but i feel its completely redundant. All attacks begin their animation on frame 1, and saying the attack starts on frame 10 but the hitbox comes out on frame 11 is just pointless. its not like the first 9 frames were interruptable. that detail is only useful for attacks with invincible or SA frames.

Good point xP. lol

 

[phi1ny3]

Updated with funky fresh stailo!

 

[iRJi]

W00T. Very nice ^_^

 

[BleachigoZX]

RJ you should include hit/shield stun.

Trust me it is important.

 

[iRJi]

RJ you should include hit/shield stun.

Trust me it is important.

Hola =D. Anyway, I am trying to get Lingering hitbox data too, and that comes first before the hitstun. Not to mention that we lack a way to get the data as of right now, but dont worry we will. Btw, you should have came over. We played from 10 AM until like midnight. lol.

 

[The_Bear735]

lol @ ariel. It's "Aerial". Good idea though.

 

[AvoiD]

EDIT: Fack, wrong topic, sorry. >.<

 

[phi1ny3]

*Is downloading Gecko, code manager, etc.*
Time to get this done once and for all.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

*Wants to help but doesn't know how*

 

[phi1ny3]

I found out yesterday that fair has IASA properties (not sure of the details though).

 

[iRJi]

I found out yesterday that fair has IASA properties (not sure of the details though).

Phil, let me get your SN for AIM. (I know you have one =])

 

[phi1ny3]

What's you're AIM? Mine's phi1ny3

 

[Trela]

Sweet. Lucarios definately need to know their frames!

Good luck, my boy!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I found out yesterday that fair has IASA properties (not sure of the details though).

Really?

10 wtfLucario