The Marth Matchup Ratio Thread (V2)

[Capuchon]

60:40 for Link is good, i think. Is just offstage where link very disadvantaged. (It's just an idea)

 

[DellSmashman]

Lol really, what does Falco have that out-options what Marth has? Still even though.

Anyway, My opinions of Marth matchups are:

MK: -1
Diddy: -1
Snake: +1 or +2
Falco: 0
Wario: +1 or +2
IC: 0, People just don't know the MU from the looks of it.
Olimar: +1 but people still lose cause they don't understand the character lol.
Pikachu: 0 or +1
Lucario: +1
King Dedede: -1
ZSS: 0 or +1
G&W: +2
Toon Link: 0 or +1
Fox: 0 or +1
Wolf: 0
Peach: +1
DK: 0
Kirby: +1
ROB: 0
Pit: +1
Sonic: +1

I'll do more some other time.

 

[Capuchon]

-1 it's like 60:40 ?

 

[C.J.]

The +/- system doesn't (shouldn't) have any relation to the ratio system. +1 means slight advantage. Nothing else

 

[Reizilla]

What does "slight" advantage mean?

 

[C.J.]

Small, little. Less than a normal (dis)advantage. Better/worse than even though.

 

[Reizilla]

So kinda like 55:45?

 

[C.J.]

So kinda like anywhere between 51:49 and 64:36

 

[Reizilla]

Pikachu is not even.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ4-PT4pqUo&feature=channel_video_title

 

[Haze~]

Pikachu is not even.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ4-PT4pqUo&feature=channel_video_title

says private video :/

 

[Reizilla]

Damnit, Leaf.

 

[Reizilla]

Video should be set back to public now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ4-PT4pqUo&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[No_Skillz]

why is wario -2

 

[Volt_Storm_7]

I may be a pika, but I believe the marth mu is 0

 

[PEACE7]

A lot of pikachu mains think the same, its weird

 

[M@v]

why is wario -2

-Has almost no response to marth's range
-Marth has a few grab releases on him, that can lead to both big damage and death.

Some other things, but those are the 2 big ones. I know marth and peach are two of wario's worst mus :3

 

[KaptainKrunch]

Can we discuss the Fox match up? I feel that the thread we have is waaay outdated, and full of inaccuracies. Also, I am having a lot of trouble, haha.

Even with good spacing he can OoS punish our ftilt, jab, fair, fsmash, bair, all with his usmash.

Halp.

 

[C.J.]

Ftilt is an anti-air, why are you using it when he's grounded? Ditto jab. FFfair is -4, his usmash is frame 8. No he can't. Fsmash is a punishing move, why are you using it when he can shield it? Bair... bair I can see that being possible.

Anyway, you want to stay more grounded in the MU and look for openings to safely jump, dtilt, DB, and grab. Retreating pivot grab beats his usmash. SDI his dair to either side. SDI his fair straight down. Crossing up Fox is a decent enough option. He has utilt OoS which doesn't have that great of horizontal range and bair OoS which isn't an overly good option vs cross ups.

 

[Shaya]

Can we discuss the Fox match up? I feel that the thread we have is waaay outdated, and full of inaccuracies. Also, I am having a lot of trouble, haha.

Even with good spacing he can OoS punish our ftilt, jab, fair, fsmash, bair, all with his usmash.

Halp.

all of those moves can't be upsmashed oos with any respectable spacing.
Ftilt and fsmash are the only ones he can (on ftilt its BARELY) shield drop dash usmash.

 

[KaptainKrunch]

let me specify, Fox can dash usmash...


He can punish Metaknights dtilt on shield with dash upsmash, which means that our slower moves can easily be punished with dash upsmash.

 

[C.J.]

let me specify, Fox can dash usmash...


He can punish Metaknights dtilt on shield with dash upsmash, which means that our slower moves can easily be punished with dash upsmash.

Shaya specifically said "Ftilt and fsmash are the only ones he can (on ftilt its BARELY) shield drop dash usmash." So you can specify dash usmash all you want, that's what he was referring to...

Also, no he can't... Look at frame data please please please. MK's dtilt is 15 frames long. Hitbox is active on frames 3 and 4. Cooldown is frame 5-15. It's frame advantage is -11 on shield. Subtract 7 frames on that for shield drop, it's -4 on shield after shield drop. Usmash hits on frame 8. Dtilt is now at +4. Add in the fact that Fox has to dash assuming it's spaced well. It is literally IMPOSSIBLE for Fox to dash usmash OoS MK's dtilt.

Also, speed of move isn't the only relevant thing. Shield stun, shield push, and range are all important factors. Like I said in my first response; Fair can not be usmashed. Bair is not possible either. It's -15 on shield. Again, shield drop is 7 frames. Usmash is frame 8. 7+8=15. Looks like we have a wash frame wise. Now Fox has to close the distance meaning usmashing a well spaced *retreating* bair from Marth is IMPOSSIBLE.

So again, he can usmash our ftilt and fsmash (maybe jab if spaced poorly OoS). But Ftilt is an anti-air and arguably platform pressure. If he can shield it and punish you for it, you're using it wrong. If fsmash isn't hitting, then that means you're not using it as a punishing move, which means you're using it wrong. The ONLY time you should be getting usmashed by fox is when you use a move in a bad spot, space is terrible, or when he catches your jump or landing lag (or out of a dair).

EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258564 All characters' frame data so you can do the math so I don't have to.

 

[Nike.]

Update: The V2 Project is almost complete.

 

[Nike.]

Important double post.

Most of Marth's Matchups are finalized (one left).
He will see 4 changes as of now.

 

[Capuchon]

Cool ! Thanks a lot =).

 

[Nike.]

Major update on the Match Up Chart:

Okay. So.
Got permission from Marc to post a teaser for everyone.

Here's one of the changed matchups for v2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJLmgnFpJg8

Most of Marth's changes are in the link.

 

[Roxas M]

Will the actual debates on the matchup discussions be released, once it is completed and the matchup chart is posted?

 

[M@v]

If the Falco marth mu is indeed +1 for marth now, fully agree. Been preaching that for longest time as a falco main even before I picked up marth. With Falco, I feel Ice climbers are his worst hard counter, then Pikachu is his second worst hard counter. Then, you have falco at a disadvantage to marth at -1, then the rest of falco's matchups are even or better. Kirby is possibly a 45:55 for falco.

 

[clowsui]

lol you preached that as like 65:35 when we were playing dem friendries at mlg cbus

 

[M@v]

Close enough. Point is its not even

 

[Shaya]

On a better day I'd consider sniping you down!
Imo any advantage marth has is smaller than what +1 is worth, but meh.

 

[Nike.]

Also kinda meh with falco.

Update for everyone: Marth has like 2-3 MU's left for debate and then his spread is done. The last batch of MU's should be decided sometime in the next 2 days.

This thread will be seeing some more... activity soon lol.

 

[Nike.]

Marth's Matchup Chart v2

-1|
±0|
+1|
+2|
+3|

 

[Shaya]

Pikachu players are the scourge of the universe.

 

[Reizilla]

Indeed.

Why are Falcon and Mario only +2?

 

[FEFIZ]

For me Pikachu is +1 and Falco is 0.

 

[Haze~]

Indeed.

Why are Falcon and Mario only +2?

Idk about Mario but Falcon can get in on marth, edgeguard him with uair utilt etc+ one grab on marth gives him so much priority

 

[Capuchon]

I don't think that Mario and Falcon are +3, +2 is fine, the true difficulty for Falcon and Mario, is the approach.

 

[V]

Olimar is +/- 0 guys come on now.

 

[xzx]

Hi Marths! We Warios are currently discussing you. We would appreciate if you could throw in something nice to say about this MU as well as a ratio! Thank you in advance!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=319826

 

[Nike.]

OP is edited with Match Up Chart 2.0