The Marth Matchup Ratio Thread (V2)

[Mr-R]

-1 diddy ? even with zss and pika? :o

 

[Nike.]

You helped make it!!!!!!

*facepalm*

 

[Mr-R]

yes I did but I STILL dissagreed with it, also this was a long time ago and I forgot ._.

 

[Nike.]

I'm iffy on all 3 as well. We WILL have our revenge on the pika's, though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth is not even with pika dammit. Or oli for that matter.

He is even with zss but man she has problems vs solid defense.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Marth loses to MK, ICs, DDD, Rob, Sonic and maybe Diddy. Olimar, Falco, Snake, Lucario, Wolf, Kirby, DK are even and G&W, Peach, Pit, Ike, Sheik, Yoshi and Samus are only slight advantages [maybe Bowser too]. The others are either +2 [or higher] or I'm not sure about the ratio. Pika seems to be pretty even and ZSS, TL and Fox only slightly in Marth's favor but I can't say for sure.

Marth is definitely even with Olimar. It's a very common match-up in high level play and between Mikeneko, Brood, Nietono, Mr-R, MikeHaze, Rich Brown, dabuz and Neo the match-up must have been played a thousand times or so and the results between them are pretty much exactly even.

 

[smashkng]

Marth beats ROB. If ROB gets above Marth or gets to the edge he's completely ****ed. ROB has certain moves that outrange Marth but those moves aren't disjointed except like Fsmash and they can be baited and punished quite easily. ROB has trouble killing too. I play a good ROB often and I'm sure he'd agree with this. Marth vs Peach is +2 IMO and Marth destroys Bowser and Samus.

 

[C.J.]

Marth doesn't beat ROB; it's even lol

He AAs our approaches, has reliable ways to beat our recovery, juggles us really hard, etc.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth doesn't destroy anybody.

 

[Luigi player]

I could see him destroying Samus tho tbh!

 

[Nike.]

I think Marth loses to MK, ICs, DDD, Rob, Sonic and maybe Diddy. Olimar, Falco, Snake, Lucario, Wolf, Kirby, DK are even and G&W, Peach, Pit, Ike, Sheik, Yoshi and Samus are only slight advantages [maybe Bowser too]. The others are either +2 [or higher] or I'm not sure about the ratio. Pika seems to be pretty even and ZSS, TL and Fox only slightly in Marth's favor but I can't say for sure.

Marth is definitely even with Olimar. It's a very common match-up in high level play and between Mikeneko, Brood, Nietono, Mr-R, MikeHaze, Rich Brown, dabuz and Neo the match-up must have been played a thousand times or so and the results between them are pretty much exactly even.

I think most of those are reasonable, but I do straight up disagree with Sonic beating Marth. That's quite a bold statement.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If I ever see a really good Sonic lose to Marth I'm willing to change my mind.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth doesn't lose to sonic. That is utter nonsense.

 

[C.J.]

The MU is probably just even vOv

 

[Emblem Lord]

It could be even but sonic doesn't win. That's just false. Sonic has no tool or option to negate or invalidate anything Marth does and he takes risk himself by attack as many of his moves use his actual body to attack.

Such garbage I'm reading.

 

[NH Cody]

Sonic is most likely even with Marth.

It could go either way...

also Marth destroys a ton of characters o_o

oh and how could I forget - Gheb, TL/Marth is definitely even. maaaayyybe in one or two situations it's 52:48 Marth's favor, but the majority of the MU's aspects are even

 

[ScareMl]

Sonic is most likely even with Marth.

It could go either way...

also Marth destroys a ton of characters o_o

oh and how could I forget - Gheb, TL/Marth is definitely even. maaaayyybe in one or two situations it's 52:48 Marth's favor, but the majority of the MU's aspects are even

on wifi, it is in TL's favor

 

[NH Cody]

lmao scare!!!

I wonder what prompts you to say that

 

[Shaya]

Toon Link match up may be in Marth's favour.
But the conditions for it at highe level are kinda dumb/cheesy. Where often any match is decided by Toon Link in the first minute or two if he's in the lead otherwise it's Marth maintaining things and trying to avoid chip damage.

tl;dr super gay campy match up gg.

 

[NH Cody]

but Shaya you lost to my toon link 2-0 offline

 

[Shaya]

Money match.

Oh but in seriousness, I learnt that mu a bit more and felt so helpless in it for a majority of my US trip.

 

[C.J.]

It could be even but sonic doesn't win. That's just false. Sonic has no tool or option to negate or invalidate anything Marth does and he takes risk himself by attack as many of his moves use his actual body to attack.

Such garbage I'm reading.

I really feel as though it's even. Sonic has a ton of mobility and the ability to stop on a dime out of SD. It forces Marth to commit, vs a character with so many options out of the same move while retaining the mobility to punish any commitment we make, having been forced to commit by the same mobility and available Mosul options. It's way too hard for Marth to be consistently right for Marth to win IMO.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Why would you chase after Sonic when he spin dashes ?

Just stand still at the other side of the stage when Sonic charges it.
What's Sonic going to do when you pivot grab it ?
Or dancing blade it ?
Or block it on reaction and punish Oos ?

Fake Marth out with it ? Okay.. you still have no need to approach him.

And when it's done in the air, Sonic can cancel it into a shield grab, but you can still Dancing Blade or Pivot Grab it.


I'm in no means saying "Marth beats Sonic", I'm just saying why Spin Dash should not be an excuse to make Marth or any character approach.

 

[The TaBuu]

1.) As we all know Sonic suffers from horrendous range, while Marth is absolutely blessed with range. This can shut down a lot of approaches that may come out from a Sonic. However his speed may mitigate this a bit somewhat...

2.) Sonic lacks some SERIOUS KO Power when compared to Marth. This equates into "Marth will KO faster than Sonic"

3.) Sonic's moves really don't pack that much priority, so GL for Sonic vs Marth's Sword.

4.) Sonic's best game is on the ground. Marth can fight evenly with Sonic on ground. Move it into the air and Marth is going to be dominating the flow of the match.

5.) At the end of the day, Sonic will be the one having to make that first strike on Marth. Marth can safely sit behind his sword and wait for a mistake or opening to grab the momentum by the neck and throttle it 100%. The MU, IMO, is one where Marth doesn't seriously have to "overexert" himself and act agressively. This equates to Marth having to make less reads and less risk v reward situations that go against Marth.

 

[Shaya]

You bring up a good point.
Sonic will have to make the first strke and marth can sit behind his sword.

The problem is that at most levels of play this isn't the case.
Marth is very baitable for swinging first.
And Sonic is very much capable of punishing whiffs.

 

[The TaBuu]

I guess that is true. But from my experience from playing a Sonic and getting a feel for the character, he really is gonna have a huge uphill battle getting apst the range. With Marth you have to remember there are generally three sections of range. The optimal area is the tipper zone where Marth will be kept safe from most moves while dealing maximum knockback and damage with his moves ; to be frank, they're f*cking powerful when tippered and fresh. The next area is inside the tipper zone and closer to Marth. This is most likely where Sonic wants to end up. Up close, Sonic can deal the most damage due to his quick and generally low-lag moves that he can abuse. Marth will struggle a bit more when Sonic enters the in-tipper zone. However, Marth has a lot of options from perfect shielding to OoS options or simply Dancing Blade Combos. The final zone is the outside tipper zone. This is where Sonic can not simply touch Marth and Marth cannot touch Sonic. However, because Sonic has little range and no projectile, Marth is actually at an upper hand.

Sonic's play of hit and run will be able to shine because of his speed. However against Marth's sword and generally more powerful moves, I still feel that Sonic is at a disadvantage against Marth.

I hope this was a good post ~

 

[Shaya]

Unfortunately it's still made with the notion that Sonic can't get past Marth's zones.
Not many characters can do anything against a forward air from Marth, even if they power shield it.
Sonic is an exception. In both scenarios.

 

[The TaBuu]

how does sonic bypass a F-Air? I really can't think of any options...

 

[Shaya]

He power shields it.
Dashes forward and uairs.

 

[The TaBuu]

But won't that only work on mispaced F-Airs?
A "safe" F-Air will tip connect on the power-shield and tell me if I'm wrong, but Marth can move back while in the air away from retaliation.
Or Marth can double F-Air past Sonic. If the Marth sees the powershield, he can just fly right by the Sonic, can't he?

 

[Shaya]

Think about how long it takes for a second forward air to come out.
Think about Sonic's movement speed.

 

[The TaBuu]

I guess you're right. So then what about Jab or FTilt?
TBH though, Sonic has the potential to pretty much punish every whiffed move out there because of his speed. But this doesn't give him many favorable match-ups or advantages in the long run. So, IMO, Sonic going even with Marth? Not this time around...

 

[Shaya]

The classification here is one of
"it's possible"

Fox and Sonic are two match ups I believe Marth wins, but their movement speed on the ground is something that conventional spacing or zoning procedures from Marth are very much able to be circumvented. Especially if you're doing something predictably / in a repetitive pattern. Shield dropping has 7 frames of cooldown that don't exist if you power shield, do you know how far Sonic and Fox can go in 7 frames? If either of those two characters power shield, then beyond maximum safety fairs and depending on their execution, they can punish you. With the best safety on forward airs, you're still able to have your safe position compromised.

 

[-Se7en-]

Most of the people in this thread use Black Marth alternate,meanwhile I'm sporting the white.

 

[-Se7en-]

I feel as if Marth's matchup is at -1 vs MK rather than -2 and I'll explain why.
Momentum is the largest thing in this matchup from what I've learned - and what I mean (for those who don't know) is if you are intimidating the MK he will do pretty bold things and try to get you off,but if the MK is the one intimidating you then you will shieldgrab or dolphin slash.We like to feel like Marth is supposed to have the momentum but a simple dash attack could change that (this is where I believe it could be +2) since MK can just juggle forever with uair.

Onstage : -1
Offstage : -3
Grab releases : +3
^Marth

Dash Attack : +2
Juggle : +2 or +3
On edge : -1 or -3 (Marth dependent).
MK

Then again I wouldn't really go against this ratio but I feel as if it's Marth's grab and option covering abilities vs MK's unforgiving tools.

-1 or -2

 

[smashkng]

Since when has anyone said MK is -2? Offstage isn't that terrible. If you recover low and space up b very well you can make it back at least 80% of the time against an MK who knows how to edge guard us. And sure MK can juggle us pretty well but it's not nearly as bad for us as for Snake against MK. Above 100% on the ledge against MK sucks though. I think this MU is actually pretty damn even onstage. The only thing is that it's easier for MK to learn the MU than viceversa, but that shouldn't affect the MU ratio, should it? Dash attack isn't that bad, that move is really unsafe on block. In fact, most of MK's moves can be easily punished by Marth by shielding or by simply outspacing him (our horizontal aerial speed is far faster than MK's outside glide and Nado). I really believe that juggling and offstage are the only parts where MK truelly outperforms Marth (hence why MK beats Marth), and MK is still easy for Marth to juggle (Uair is amazing vs an MK above you) and we can definitely edge guard MK (not gimp him). When played correctly, Marth can really gain momentum just as easily as MK can.

 

[-Se7en-]

Since when has anyone said MK is -2? Offstage isn't that terrible. If you recover low and space up b very well you can make it back at least 80% of the time against an MK who knows how to edge guard us. And sure MK can juggle us pretty well but it's not nearly as bad for us as for Snake against MK. Above 100% on the ledge against MK sucks though. I think this MU is actually pretty damn even onstage. The only thing is that it's easier for MK to learn the MU than viceversa, but that shouldn't affect the MU ratio, should it? Dash attack isn't that bad, that move is really unsafe on block. In fact, most of MK's moves can be easily punished by Marth by shielding or by simply outspacing him (our horizontal aerial speed is far faster than MK's outside glide and Nado). I really believe that juggling and offstage are the only parts where MK truelly outperforms Marth (hence why MK beats Marth), and MK is still easy for Marth to juggle (Uair is amazing vs an MK above you) and we can definitely edge guard MK (not gimp him). When played correctly, Marth can really gain momentum just as easily as MK can.

It was opinionated,I said I feel as in I believe.

 

[smashkng]

It was opinionated,I said I feel as in I believe.

No problem. I can understand the pain of fighting against MKs cause you have to understand every part of the MU REALLY well in order not to get wrecked by him. But with MU experience you can overcome all the "gay" parts of the MU and deal with it at least to a doable extent.

 

[C.J.]

How on earth is something -1 or -3 "Marth dependent"? That's called a correct way to do something and a stupid way to do something. We ignore the stupid way.

The MU is secretly even btw. Both characters body each other all over the place. It's a matter of MK's juggling you + gimps vs Marth getting a tipper fsmash/GR->dair
Unfortunately, MK's side of that is easier so it ends up being in his favor.

Also, that's not how you look at things...
"dash attack +2" doesn't actually mean anything. Dash attack is good for what? Beat Marth's tipper fsmash? Retreating fair? Ftilt? Everything?

Now, what DOES make sense is:

MK's dash attack is low and moves quickly in a dart-like fashion making it good for breaking Marth's usual fair zoning. However, late nairs, jumping less, and retreating pivot grabs beat MK's dash attack really cleanly making is less effective at breaking zoning against experienced players in the MU. The problem with those are it gives MK more time to close in to AA Marth with SL putting him into a juggle situation with using nado to counter more grounded options. I think MK can break Marth's zoning reliably so that a grounded game, with both characters trying to get the first hit is +X in MK's favor.
Obviously that's a GROSS over-simplification but it gets the general idea across.

Then you go onto evaluating to R/R of each option from both side, evaluate options of each character to get out of the result (assuming it ends up favorably in the other person's favor) and what options beat which while also what they lose to (DS beats nado and DA easily but lose to shield/possibly SL).

And so on and so forth covering different aspects of the MU.


Unless you ACTUALLY think that MK's DA is SOOOO GOOD that Marth can't work around it without taking extreme risks. Which would mean that if you gave his DA to a bad character that the MU is suddenly even. Which isn't the case because look at Sheik. The ONLY reason why MK's DA is reasonably good at all is because of the other options he has to compliment it/punish the ways that Marth has to work around it.

Marth boards are mine/Shaya's baby- please construct proper and detailed arguments while here. That way it prompts good discussion and options and ideas can be explored efficiently with evidence being used as support.

 

[-Se7en-]

This was quite a while ago, I've played a few offline players and I get what you mean now. Sorry for that post forever ago, I look at it now and didn't understand what I was really looking at.

I do see why it's just -1 or "secretly even".