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The *NEW* Ice Climbers Stage Discussion Topic

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
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I will break the Curse of the ICs Boards.



EDIT: Fixed up the OP but not done yet. Gonna make it sexier later after work. Just had to do something now..it was bothering me.

:phone:
 

Sieguest

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Nice job with the edits Tech! Personally I'd like to talk about PS1 first unless others have something else in mind.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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If all things are the same, let's just skip stage striking and go straight to Smashville?
 

ch33s3

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There's really no reason to discuss Brinstar. It is entirely unwinnable against pretty much any character there. Let's start with a borderline stage. Frigate or Halberd come to mind.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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I feel so much more motivated to discuss now that we have a good looking op


yahhhhhhhhhh


Characters you want to avoid taking to brinstar: Ice Climbers. Time to learn a secondary
 

Blissard

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Btw format-wise for the OP, I don't think that the "characters to take to this stage" part needs a collapse tag. It's small enough to the point that it's a hassle to open all of them if you're searching for specific characters.

Otherwise you did a very dandy job :D
 

DeLux

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Might I suggest combining the rating and character sections in the OP?

For example:

Custom Stage jghk10234

+2 - :ganondorf:
+1 - :falco:
0 - :diddy:
-1 - :snake:
-2 - :metaknight:

Explanations:

:ganondorf: - can't jump
:falco: random flying obstacles stops lasers
:diddy: - sucks for the most part on stage but has powerful stage gimmick at one point to make matchup neutral here
:snake: - controls most of stage with nades and Nana is extra combo video esque on this stage
:metaknight: - has fifty jumps and 12 kills moves all out on frame 2 with 0 cooldown


etc.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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I actually agree with that concept Lux.

Also we need to come to a conclusion on what we are discussing first so....after today we'll just go by what seems to be more popular and start it up.
 

DeLux

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If we wanted to take into even more detail, the +/- system could refer to how the stages affect the matchup.

For example, on the BBR Matchup Chart, MK is listed as a -1 for us as a baseline.

So on FD, let's say the Stage helps us an extraordinary amount so we now have an advantage of around +1. That would mean FD would be listed as a +2 stage against MK because it affects the matchup that much.

On the other side of the coin, let's say we have a level like Brinstar. It takes the -1 matchup all the way to a -4. Brinstar would then be listed as a -3 stage against MK.

So that being said, let's say we find a stage where we have a slight disadvantage (ie: PS1) and play at -1 against MK. Then PS1 would be listed as a 0 stage against MK.



OR


We could just list the character as the end result:

From the aforementioned examples -

FD we be considered +1
Brinstar would be -4
PS1 would be -1


Or we could list both.

I'm personally in favor of tracking the net change (the first way of listing characters) rather than the matchup overall method (the second way of listing characters). We'd probably get more consistent results/trends as to how certain stages help/hurt our character.

But from a practical standpoint, I could see how the second way would be the preferred method.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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Okay guys, so unless anyone has any objections we shall start with Halberd. I think the most important thing is just get this thing up and running.
 

DeLux

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Wnat rating system did you decide one to use?
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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Well the first method you posted combining the characters ratings with the stage's seems ideal. I would still give the stage an overall rating but it wouldnt hurt to do characters also. I mean we kind of have to if we want to get all the details about why a stage is beneficial/harmful to us.

Unless anyone else has suggestions.


I see you lurkin' ESAM.
 

DeLux

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There are two aspects to the stage to watch out for. During the part of the stage where the background is moving plays entirely differently than the stage when it is static on the ship.

I’ll begin by discussing the moving part of the stage. There are no stage obstacles to prevent CGs once they get started. However, the trade off is that we become susceptible to sharking. However, the only character where this is a significant issue is really metaknight.

Because of the orientation of the stage ramps, what one can do from a desynced stand point is to load the center part of the bottom platform with ice blocks. At which point, most characters don’t have enough jumps or uair disjoint to not be put in a huge risk of getting grabbed if they come back through the platform, making them have to retreat to the main ledges, assuming you are zoning properly. At this point, the only thing that makes sharking disadvantageous to us is if they play metaknight, or if they are trying to stall us out. The sharking ability gives us another recovery option we usually don’t have by squalling up from underneath the level.

In regard to ramp play, you can also abuse the ramps in order to stall the progress of Ice Blocks, extending the time window of a frame trap, assuming they are trying to zone you out of your uair game by staying off the top platform. However, this can also be used against us, because it takes much longer for a frame trap to travel in terms of spacing, thus it makes us more susceptible to a PS > Grab counter to that specific frame trap. This IB trick with the ramps is also fairly useful to help zone against all approaches, because sitting in shield becomes super safe since it essentially makes the entire bottom part of the stage a giant frame trap. That being said, if you stay inside the ramps, you can stay fairly safe. It's hard for super campy characters to get in there and many of their most powerful camping tools are less effective. If you go up the ramps, you are going towards your doom. At which point you better have both a hard read for a grab AND a frame trap to cover your approach.

When the stage switches to play on the ship, the stage loses the ramps, but also loses the chances of us getting sharked. The obstacles however can interrupt chain grabs. If you are CGing in the very center of the stage, you are at risk of losing your CG when the stage moves, because the small drop forces an auto grab break. In order to prevent this, walk your CGs to outside of the platforms on the area above the ramps when the next stage transformation comes. The low ceiling allows you to CG about 15% less than you needed to normally to get a kill, but this is a bad trade in my opinion.

The stage is horizontally larger, so there is more room to run for our opponents in this part of the stage. I like the large platform and how it shields from most aerial based characters, who lose some matchup advantage because they can no longer shark.

For the most part though, this stage is like a time to get timed out trap if everyone plays safe. It’s certainly playable and would definitely not warrant a ban, but there are very few to no characters that I can think of that I would counterpick here.

Matchup affects by Character (remember these numbers indicate how much the stage affects the matchup number imo) (If they aren't listed, assume it's a 0):

+2 - None
+ 1 - :diddy:
-1 - :metaknight: :pit: :olimar: :rob: :dedede:
-2 - None

0 is no affect on matchup ratio. +/- 1 is possible counter pick. +/- 2 is a candidate for a ban.
 

Hylian

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Fun trick on halberd that works on most people:

Stand in the sights of the laser and shield right before it shoots. DI while in your shield to the edge of the laser towards your opponent. Watch as your opponent runs to you hoping for a free punish and he explodes because your shield extends the last hit of the laser hitbox. Laugh.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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I MAY switch over this thread to someone else. I too am losing my interest in this character after the last weekend ...lol We'll see I'll try to stay motivated though.
 

DeLux

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After doing some more testing, I feel like that Ice Block Gimmick that I was talking about on Halberd really helps minimize some of the power of sharking.

They still have a fairly safe method to tack on damage/run the clock.

However, attempting to punish is much more difficult because your opponent has to make it through a wall of moving hitboxes to go after you directly.

For example, in the metaknight matchup, it severely hinders the progress and MK can make if they use shuttle loop or tornado. If you zone correctly, the only safe option is to tack on an uair, and then drill rush back to the ledge. Anything more aggro than that and they risk getting grabbed
 

B0NK

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I thought this was known... But yeah it does make a difference and makes it so you can much more easily escape his sharking up-airs since he can't chase your shorthops with them and pressure your shield into a poking nado.

It's also effective regardless if the opponent can shark or not, it just makes it that much hard to approach you. Forcing the opponent to either go through the IB's or through the top platform where your up-airs are a threat is quite effective.

I also like ice blocking on the halberd transition to the solid stage, during the transition you can put ice blocks that will bounce of the temporary wall... aka dat ditch part when the stage is landing into in.

Also like using the IB's on Frigate.
 

DeLux

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Yeah it's already known. I was just more or less amending my previous statement that it didn't help that much against MK sharking and correcting it.
 

Mr. game and watch

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Theory: at RC, play normal on the ship, CG and all.
But on the platforms, sh squall to go from platform to platform, so he won't approach you.
If he does, blizzy.
If he dosent, IB.
Depending on the opponet, the IB could Gimp them.
I move from platform to platform using squal.
Can't get footstooled, usually an get poked out of it.
Dairs and uairs are what's dangerous.
Is this gay or good?
 

Mr. game and watch

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Stupid autocorrect.
Fixed.
Well not excactly sh... But jump and immediatly squall, sense mashing B in squall makes you go higher when you're in the air.
I do rising squall through platforms, falling squall to lower platforms. Etc.
 

Roller

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Just follow the grime...
Most characters, especially ones that excel on rc, most obviously MK have no problem hitting us out of squall. They can even send one of the climbers into the special fall animation with a strong possibility of them dying.
 

DeLux

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Why would you counterpick a character to that level when it:

A. Leaves you open to Metaknight
B. Is bad for ICs
C. Literally EVERY level is better for us in almost every matchup (except Brinstar)

If I saw an IC squalling everywhere on RC, I would jump into them and hope the loss of altitude gain would be enough to get them killed lol
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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There are some things you cannot change. ICs being *** on RC/Brinstar is one of those things.

Oh Im back now. Found my interest in these guys again lol
 
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