Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[FlareHabanero]

In fairness... after playing as Mewtwo in Melee I can't blame the guy for being afraid of that.

What version of Melee were you playing? I don't recall Mewtwo in a pink dress throwing candy at people.

 

[Fatmanonice]

In fairness... after playing as Mewtwo in Melee I can't blame the guy for being afraid of that.

I would agree with this but I wouldn't say it ruined the character. Mewtwo was laughably bad in Smash but still awesome in everything else. Even if they completely fumbled Ridley's Smash incarnation, he'd still be cool. I would say this would be the same case for Link in Smash Bros; terrible in Smash but still completely likeable elsewhere.

 

[Phaazoid]

I'm not exactly against Ridley being in Smash either. It'd be bittersweet for him to be a playable character, because yes, awesome, the beast is finally playable, but he would never be the same.

That's exactly what upsets me about this. That they would ignore all of Ridley's characteristics for the sake of popular request. I would rather them do what's best for the series. Maybe that does mean making Ridley playable, but the way things have been, it does not appear to be that way at all.
It is not just ONE aspect of canon, it is like a painting that has many features wrapped up in a complete image. To violate that to such a great extent for popular vote sake would be a damn shame.

I think this is really the core of your arguement. It isn't facts, at all, which is why we keep arguing in circles. It's your personal opinion, that if Ridley were represented as a playable character, it would violate his image, and would be a shame.

That my friend, is opinion. Arguing will get us nowhere from here. I believe we are at the point where we have to agree to disagree. I think a playable version of Ridley would be magnificent. You do not. You are not saying they could not downsize him, but that it would no longer be the Ridley you know and love if they did. I am saying if they did, it'd still be good 'ol Riddles to me.

 

[Hotfeet444]

I don't see how including Ridley would ruin his character. It's as if him being included would suddenly turn him into a complete joke, a complete mockery of himself as he's just prancing around in a pink frilly dress while throwing flowers and candy at people. If anyone had brain cells, that would not be the intention of Ridley at all and would be avoided by any soul that has common sense. Instead, it would be highlighting Ridley's general archetype: A large ruthless dragon that would gladly tear you a new one.

Sorry...I had to. And I'm not sorry.

 

[Mr Lange]

I think this is really the core of your arguement. It isn't facts, at all, which is why we keep arguing in circles. It's your personal opinion, that if Ridley were represented as a playable character, it would violate his image, and would be a shame.

That my friend, is opinion. Arguing will get us nowhere from here. I believe we are at the point where we have to agree to disagree. I think a playable version of Ridley would be magnificent. You do not. You are not saying they could not downsize him, but that it would no longer be the Ridley you know and love if they did. I am saying if they did, it'd still be good 'ol Riddles to me.

Well I wasn't really seeing this as trying to prove one side over the other. That's what most others seem to think which as resulted in a lot of hostility (and false accusations, seriously guys). I came here for some debate on the matter because I had a lot of points which I have never seen talked about, or have without considering other things. I haven't seen much talk on the factors that make him not viable other than the "too big" argument, which I agree by itself is stupid.

 

[CalumG]

What version of Melee were you playing? I don't recall Mewtwo in a pink dress throwing candy at people.

Goddamnit it must just be the PAL version

I enjoyed Mewtwo's inclusion in Smash, for what it's worth, I just thought it was highly ironic that the supposed #1 Pokemon turned out to be a complete bottom-of-the-barrel fighter. But then, once again this is Smash Bros. after all, and a characters strength outside of Smash Bros. doesn't reflect their strength within it.

I guess it comes down to villain archetype characters being overpowered in their respective games rather than underpowered in Smash. I mean, why don't we see people complaining about the fact that Ganondorf in Smash can be killed by those who don't wield the sword of evils bane?

 

[Erimir]

I'm not the only one who prefers Ridley as he is, you know. There's two sets of Ridley fans and you only know of the one because this thread chases the others away.

When I say that, I'm thinking more about how he is third most requested character on the boards. A lot of people are indifferent to Ridley or don't want him in for other reasons (e.g. not liking Metroid, preferring other characters). I think you're in the minority.

True, this might not align with the data that Sakurai is looking at. And it's definitely not a scientific poll. But he definitely has some significant support.

This has nothing to do with being "scared"

I'm just joking you know. Hence the

What concerns me is how much distortion they'd have to do to make this work, and then he would no longer be viable as a boss in the game...

Well... first of all, we don't even know whether there will be bosses and how they'd be incorporated. We know there won't be another SSE. They could have a boss rush like mode, I suppose, or they could have something like Melee's Adventure mode with bosses at the end. Who knows. I don't think that the bosses were THAT much fun though. Smash battles are more fun when they're between the playable character IMO.

Plus there's Meta Ridley, Omega Ridley, Ridley-X, Mecha Ridley. They'd all work fine.

Or they could show love to one of the other awesome Metroid bosses. It wouldn't be so bad to fight Kraid or Mother Brain or Phantoon instead, would it?

and all because there was a subset of fans that really wanted it.

Yes, sometimes we don't get what we want because other people wanted something different. It's not the travesty you're making it out to be.

 

[Anomilus]

Someone understands lol. The way I see it Ridley would have to be stretched further than Mewtwo to fit as well.

What happened to Mewtwo is primarily because of the developer's vision of Mewtwo fighting in Melee. This is something completely unpredictable. If such a thing is your reason for not wanting Ridley to be playable, then that's fine. But you're officially wasting your time trying to convince anybody else to adapt your way of thinking.

I myself think Mewtwo's psychic abilities were not represented to their best potential. That's no reason for me to regret his playable status. Even if Ridley gets in and doesn't reflect his potential, he would still retain the highest honor of being playable.

...Also, I'D GET TO BE RIDLEY!! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

 

[Mr Lange]

Well... first of all, we don't even know whether there will be bosses and how they'd be incorporated. We know there won't be another SSE..

What how do we know that? Where was this confirmed?
After those badass cinematics we got for the trailer they better have a new story mode.

 

[Hotfeet444]

What how do we know that? Where was this confirmed?
After those badass cinematics we got for the trailer they better have a new story mode.

Well over two weeks ago, Sakurai outright stated there will not be another story mode like Subspace Emissary. It's unknown what direction will be taken with the single player as of now.

 

[Mr Lange]

Well over two weeks ago, Sakurai outright stated there will not be another story mode like Subspace Emissary. It's unknown what direction will be taken with the single player as of now.

DAMMIT.

Oh well at least I'll never get tired of this.

 

[Erimir]

Also, I would want them to use different bosses than Ridley anyway. He's not the only boss and they already used him twice. Should do someone new.

And it would be pretty awesome to fight Kraid or Mother Brain using Ridley, IMO.

What how do we know that? Where was this confirmed?
After those badass cinematics we got for the trailer they better have a new story mode.

Oh you didn't even know that! Well... yeah... The whole "he has to be a boss" thing has a lot less weight for likelihood if you know there's a good chance there won't be any bosses in that style anyway (outside of Master Hand).

We have no idea what single player modes will be included. I mean, we assume that some obvious ones will be in, like Classic, All-Star, Break the Targets, etc. but we have no idea what else there will be.

A "story" mode seems unlikely though. They could still have platforming and big bosses though.

 

[ChozoBoy]

I would agree with this but I wouldn't say it ruined the character. Mewtwo was laughably bad in Smash but still awesome in everything else. Even if they completely fumbled Ridley's Smash incarnation, he'd still be cool. I would say this would be the same case for Link in Smash Bros; terrible in Smash but still completely likeable elsewhere.

I wouldn't say that he's laughably bad. That only really applies for the better tourny players, using tourny rules. For the average Smash player, Mewtwo is entirely playable and not at all a noticeable handycap.

The character tiers actually vary depending on skill level. Look at how they evolve in each game over time, given further experience with even the best players.

 

[Mr Lange]

I wouldn't say that he's laughably bad. That only really applies for the better tourny players, using tourny rules. For the average Smash player, Mewtwo is entirely playable and not at all a noticeable handycap.

His throws, smashes, and shadow ball are really powerful. His biggest flaw is being so lightweight, which is fitting for Mewtwo.

 

[_R@bid_]

And personally, the greatest travesty to me was his appearance in the SSE. If Sakurai can take purple Dynablade and call it Ridley and still have people happy about it somehow, I'm sure he'll know that taking Ridley and slightly shrinking him down while keeping everything else intact is perfectly fine.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

His throws, smashes, and shadow ball are really powerful. His biggest flaw is being so lightweight, which is fitting for Mewtwo.

 

[ChozoBoy]

And personally, the greatest travesty to me was his appearance in the SSE. If Sakurai can take purple Dynablade and call it Ridley and still have people happy about it somehow, I'm sure he'll know that taking Ridley and slightly shrinking him down while keeping everything else intact is perfectly fine.

Purple Dynablade was a creative comparison, and sort of expected of Sakurai. Baby Ridley is just silly.

 

[Hotfeet444]

His throws, smashes, and shadow ball are really powerful. His biggest flaw is being so lightweight, which is fitting for Mewtwo.

The last time I checked, 269 pounds is not supposed to be attributed to being a lightweight, floating ability or not.

 

[_R@bid_]

Purple Dynablade was a creative comparison, and sort of expected of Sakurai. Baby Ridley is just silly.

While purple Dynablade is a little off, it stills illustrates how Ridley in the SSE is just the Dynablade boss fight from Kirby with Ridley. Yes, there's one unique attack in the fight, but such an utter disregard to Ridley's fights in his source games shows that they really don't care much about perfectly representing how he is in Metroid, and certainly not enough to deny fans for the sake of canon.

 

[ChozoBoy]

While purple Dynablade is a little off, it stills illustrates how Ridley in the SSE is just the Dynablade boss fight from Kirby with Ridley. Yes, there's one unique attack in the fight, but such an utter disregard to Ridley's fights in his source games shows that they really don't care much about perfectly representing Metroid.

No, it just shows that Smash is just a Kirby game with a Nintendo skin. Assuming that the boxing ring is a Punch-Out!! stage, you can bet that Sakurai is going to hijack that for Kirby references too.

 

[Mr Lange]

The last time I checked, 269 pounds is not supposed to be attributed to being a lightweight, floating ability or not.

Floating ability indeed. His physical weight may be 269 lb but he more or less automatically defies gravity with psychic ability. It is mentioned in Melee that he rarely uses appendages; he just naturally psychics his way through everything.
The way he floats and responds to getting tossed in Melee indicates he's rather loosely attached to gravity and doesn't control it very much.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Floating ability indeed. His physical weight may be 269 lb but he more or less automatically defies gravity with psychic ability. It is mentioned in Melee that he rarely uses appendages; he just naturally psychics his way through everything.

The way he floats and responds to getting tossed in Melee indicates he's rather loosely attached to gravity and doesn't control it very much.

So the way he's represented in Melee is reflective of....the way he's represented in Melee. Not sure I follow.

 

[Mr Lange]

So the way he's represented in Melee is reflective of....the way he's represented in Melee. Not sure I follow.

In the games he's among the most powerful psychic Pokemon. He telekinesises, he floats, it was a fitting adaptation.

 

[Phaazoid]

Well I wasn't really seeing this as trying to prove one side over the other. That's what most others seem to think which as resulted in a lot of hostility (and false accusations, seriously guys). I came here for some debate on the matter because I had a lot of points which I have never seen talked about, or have without considering other things. I haven't seen much talk on the factors that make him not viable other than the "too big" argument, which I agree by itself is stupid.

Well I always try to steer clear of sweeping accusations. I do enjoy debate as well, you and a few others have kept me entertained recently, although some of the arguments going around became a bit confusing. I hope you've been able to get the kinds of discussions you craved about your specific topics. If not, keep going, by all means xD. As for the hostility, it IS the internet. Anonymity is a blessing and a curse, and I can't defend everyone in this thread, but gorram it they all love Ridley and I guess you could interpret their hostility as a defense mechanism towards responses about him. So in a way, since you also like Ridley, their hostility, while uncalled for, is still for a cause you can believe in xD (not necessarily Ridley in smash, just Ridley in general).

I'm probably gonna hit the sack soon, but I'll keep responding to posts as I randomly choose xD.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Floating ability indeed. His physical weight may be 269 lb but he more or less automatically defies gravity with psychic ability. It is mentioned in Melee that he rarely uses appendages; he just naturally psychics his way through everything.
The way he floats and responds to getting tossed in Melee indicates he's rather loosely attached to gravity and doesn't control it very much.

It still doesn't change the fact that the weight is still there, even if Mewtwo can alter his floating, especially since Mewtwo is not concentrating his ability to float as he's getting thrown around like a ragdoll. And from everything we've seen of Mewtwo in more main media outside the games, although I don't see this as being overly important it should still be taken into account, Mewtwo was almost impossible to hit, nothing could touch him. If Smash Bros were to make an accurate representation of Mewtwo, he'd never get hit as he'd predict his opponent's every move. That...and it's pretty badass that he can cause the storm of the century by simply waving his wrist around, but that's a different story in a different context.

 

[_R@bid_]

No, it just shows that Smash is just a Kirby game with a Nintendo skin. Assuming that the boxing ring is a Punch-Out!! stage, you can bet that Sakurai is going to hijack that for Kirby references too.

What I am trying to say is that is not a very faithful representation of Ridley, likes Mr. Lange seems to think it is. The only part that is like Ridley is his appearance, and the rest is just Dynablade. They've shown they compromise his canon, and in this case just for the flimsy reason that Sakurai thinks his games are golden. If they can compromise for that, they can compromise for the fans. Yes, there are a ton of Kirby references, but that doesn't make the point any less valid. It is still showing they don't have this extreme dedication to canon appearance that Lange talks about.

 

[Hotfeet444]

No, it just shows that Smash is just a Kirby game with a Nintendo skin. Assuming that the boxing ring is a Punch-Out!! stage, you can bet that Sakurai is going to hijack that for Kirby references too.

I don't think so, Sakurai's a little more respectable than that. Let's remember that Sakurai is very modest when it comes to representing his own franchises in Smash Bros, and he doesn't pick favorites. He probably picked a Dyna Blade style for Ridley because the sporadic movements Ridley has in Super Metroid would be a nightmare to program. That doesn't mean anything towards Ridley as a character inclusion-wise, but it seemed like a good idea for what it was worth. The Meta Ridley fight kind of redeemed it in my opinion.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

In the games he's among the most powerful psychic Pokemon. He telekinesises, he floats, it was a fitting adaptation.

So because he has the ability to move stuff with his mind, he should be floaty.

Spoiler

List me something from the Pokemon game released prior to Melee that indicates he uses his Psychic power to float or reduce his weight.

 

[Anomilus]

While purple Dynablade is a little off, it stills illustrates how Ridley in the SSE is just the Dynablade boss fight from Kirby with Ridley. Yes, there's one unique attack in the fight, but such an utter disregard to Ridley's fights in his source games shows that they really don't care much about perfectly representing how he is in Metroid, and certainly not enough to deny fans for the sake of canon.

Eh, I think it's less about not being perfect with representation and more that Sakurai just hasn't shown a good grasp of the Metroid series outside of Samus herself. I mean it's odd that it took until BRAWL for Samus to have actual Super Missiles. I found it quite annoying that Melee Samus clearly had a "Super" Missile attack but looked the same as a regular Missile.

But yeah, I honestly think Sakurai's grasp of the Metroid series is rather subpar compared to most other series. It's primarily shown in the stages. He's gotten the rising acid and lava thing right, but why does EVERY stage have to have some crazy stage-wide gimmick? Heck, we only got ONE stage that isn't reminiscent of NES Metroid, and the darn stage literally flips on itself in a way that doesn't even make sense in the context of the stage theme!

I kind of digressed, but all I'm saying is that I'm honestly not surprised Ridley behaves like Dyna Blade instead of borrowing attacks from his actual boss encounters. It's RIDICULOUS however that Ridley doesn't shoot a single fireball (obvious ignoring Meta-Ridley), yet Dyna Blade DOES!

 

[_R@bid_]

Eh, I think it's less about not being perfect with representation and more that Sakurai just hasn't shown a good grasp of the Metroid series outside of Samus herself. I mean it's odd that it took until BRAWL for Samus to have actual Super Missiles. I found it quite annoying that Melee Samus clearly had a "Super" Missile attack but looked the same as a regular Missile.

But yeah, I honestly think Sakurai's grasp of the Metroid series is rather subpar compared to most other series. It's primarily shown in the stages. He's gotten the rising acid and lava thing right, but why does EVERY stage have to have some crazy stage-wide gimmick? Heck, we only got ONE stage that isn't reminiscent of NES Metroid, and the darn stage literally flips on itself in a way that doesn't even make sense in the context of the stage theme!

I kind of digressed, but all I'm saying is that I'm honestly not surprised Ridley behaves like Dyna Blade instead of borrowing attacks from his actual boss encounters. It's RIDICULOUS however that Ridley doesn't shoot a single fireball (obvious ignoring Meta-Ridley), yet Dyna Blade DOES!

Yeah, I really hate what he's done with the Metroid series.

 

[Mr Lange]

So because he has the ability to move stuff with his mind, he should be floaty.

Spoiler

List me something from the Pokemon game released prior to Melee that indicates he uses his Psychic power to float or reduce his weight.

I meant nothing specific, it just seemed natural to me when he was like that in Melee, aside from the influences I had from the anime which I set aside at the time.

Well I always try to steer clear of sweeping accusations. I do enjoy debate as well, you and a few others have kept me entertained recently, although some of the arguments going around became a bit confusing. I hope you've been able to get the kinds of discussions you craved about your specific topics. If not, keep going, by all means xD. As for the hostility, it IS the internet. Anonymity is a blessing and a curse, and I can't defend everyone in this thread, but gorram it they all love Ridley and I guess you could interpret their hostility as a defense mechanism towards responses about him. So in a way, since you also like Ridley, their hostility, while uncalled for, is still for a cause you can believe in xD (not necessarily Ridley in smash, just Ridley in general).

I'm probably gonna hit the sack soon, but I'll keep responding to posts as I randomly choose xD.

Appreciated. I can't imagine what else there is to be said at this point. This has been a good discussion... for the most part.
As for anonymity I'm really not that unknown.

Thanks for the great debates everyone.

 

[ChozoBoy]

What I am trying to say is that is not a very faithful representation of Ridley, likes Mr. Lange seems to think it is. The only part that is like Ridley is his appearance, and the rest is just Dynablade. They've shown they compromise his canon, and in this case just for the flimsy reason that Sakurai thinks his games are golden. If they can compromise for that, they can compromise for the fans. Yes, there are a ton of Kirby references, but that doesn't make the point any less valid. It is still showing they don't have this extreme dedication to canon appearance that Lange talks about.

Canonocity isn't or shouldn't be the focal point. It's the "on-model" aspect of the character that needs to be approved by both Sakurai and Sakamoto. If either one vetoes the thought of scaling Ridley differently, it doesn't happen. And I strongly suspect that both of them would.

That said, I don't think it would come to it. Sakurai would test normal Ridley first, who is still smaller than Giga Bowser. If normal Ridley flies, so to speak, then that is the end of the testing and he's in.

 

[Hotfeet444]

So because he has the ability to move stuff with his mind, he should be floaty.

Spoiler

List me something from the Pokemon game released prior to Melee that indicates he uses his Psychic power to float or reduce his weight.

Before Melee, the only thing we knew about Mewtwo was that he was a savage brute who was born from Mew and then taken and had all sorts of genetic experimentation performed on him, turning him violent. We also know that he's the most violent, and arguably one of the most powerful, pokemon of all. Pardon me for saying this, but I don't recall seeing Mewtwo tearing people in half with his mind or, as I said, reading their minds to know their every move and then murder them once they make said move. I mean seriously, he's the only pokemon we've actually seen kill people.

 

[_R@bid_]

Canonocity isn't or shouldn't be the focal point. It's the "on-model" aspect of the character that needs to be approved by both Sakurai and Sakamoto. If either one vetoes the thought of scaling Ridley differently, it doesn't happen. And I strongly suspect that both of them would.

There's absolutely no way to know what goes on in Sakurai's head. What you suspect and what I suspect he thinks really don't belong in a serious argument.

 

[ChozoBoy]

There's absolutely no way to know what goes on in Sakurai's head. What you suspect and what I suspect he thinks really don't belong in a serious argument.

My suspicions weren't the crux. I think you know that because you glossed over it.

 

[Mr Lange]

There's absolutely no way to know what goes on in Sakurai's head. What you suspect and what I suspect he thinks really don't belong in a serious argument.

Then technically any argument concerning Ridley isn't serious. I guess we'll just have to settle for the regular or silly kind.

 

[Anomilus]

You know, I just can't picture people cautiously handing over the reins of a character to Sakurai and being like "Please don't do this, I suppose you can do that...".

We've seen Hideki Kojima's behavior. We've seen Keiji Inafune's reactions. We hear about Sakurai being like some sort of "rock star" in the eyes of gamers and developers alike.

These people are more like "YOU'RE INTERESTED IN MY CHARACTER? COOL!! GO FOR IT! I LOVE THE SMASH BROS. GAMES! :D :D :D". As much sense and truth there likely is in getting permissions and assuring accuracy and stuff, I seriously doubt any person will put limits on Sakurai. They trust him and adore his work.

I mean seriously, he's the only pokemon we've actually seen kill people.

...Not really relevant to this discussion, but Mesprit, Azelf, and Uxie killed an evil pokemon hunter and her minions in the pokemon anime. Dunno if anybody here still watches it, but it did happen. Obviously not during the Melee era, but Mewtwo has company in the "killed people" category.

 

[ChozoBoy]

You know, I just can't picture people cautiously handing over the reins of a character to Sakurai and being like "Please don't do this, I suppose you can do that...".

We've seen Hideki Kojima's behavior. We've seen Keiji Inafune's reactions. We hear about Sakurai being like some sort of "rock star" in the eyes of gamers and developers alike.

These people are more like "YOU'RE INTERESTED IN MY CHARACTER? COOL!! GO FOR IT! I LOVE THE SMASH BROS. GAMES! :D :D :D". As much sense and truth there likely is in getting permissions and assuring accuracy and stuff, I seriously doubt any person will put limits on Sakurai. They trust him and adore his work.

It isn't about limits. We know that Sakurai has to have character models approved. He's told stories about getting Mario, Pokemon, Marth, and recently Megaman depictions approved by the IP owners/handlers. Mostly it is the first two that are the picky ones, but it is still an nonnegotiable fact of the development process.

It's only people like the Super Meat Boy devs that say "Take our stupid character for free so people notice us."

 

[_R@bid_]

I simply responded to the first thing I noticed about your post, that's all. I didn't purposely gloss over anything. As far as I can tell, you're saying that the outcome of all this hinges upon whether Sakurai or Sakamoto veto the idea of a smaller Ridley. I don't think they will, you think they will, neither really has any bearing on anything. What did I gloss over?

 

[Anomilus]

It isn't about limits. We know that Sakurai has to have character models approved. He's told stories about getting Mario, Pokemon, Marth, and recently Megaman depictions approved by the IP owners/handlers. Mostly it is the first two that are the picky ones, but it is still an nonnegotiable fact of the development process.

It's only people like the Super Meat Boy devs that say "Take our stupid character for free so people notice us."

My point is that some posts have made it seem like some developers are going to refuse certain actions on a character, such as Sakamoto and how Ridley might be handled. I'm just saying that these people are more likely to be more liberal about Sakurai's handling of characters.