Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[Deleted member]

Regardless, Ridley is neither "too big" nor "too awkward".
Smash has completely skewed sizes for its characters (Olimar is the size of a quarter, for example, yet somehow is taller than the 8 inch Kirby/Meta Knight), and Ridley is no exception; Brawl is the actually the largest he's ever been.

As for awkwardness, a fire breathing dragon isn't nearly as awkward compared to other fighters already, considering the concept had already been done before (Charizard).
I can name at least 10 characters more awkward:
-Ivysaur
-R.O.B.
-Mr. Game & Watch
-Kirby/Jigglypuff (Especially Jigglypuff)
-Olimar (the Pikmin gimmick)
-Ice Climbers (the two-as-one gimmick)
-Mewtwo
-Ganondorf (well, more or less his near invulnerability within the Zelda series; not referring to clone status)
-Peach (regardless of her ability to fight in her series, it is still somewhat jarring to see her as a capable fighter)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Hating emos should've stayed in 2011.

Along with the emos themselves

 

[Starcutter]

Smash has completely skewed sizes for its characters (Olimar is the size of a quarter, for example, yet somehow is taller than the 8 inch Kirby/Meta Knight)

really don't think olimar is a good example for size. since the camera is zoomed in on him, he looks relatively proportionate in brawl to his size in pikmin.

ridley takes up a larger chunk of the screen, making his relative size look funny.

not THAT big of a deal, but the pikmin argument isn't really the best one.




However, this one IS a good argument.

 

[Frostwraith]

Another good argument:

 

[BKupa666]

But...but...if you pause it at exactly this frame, Ridley is actually his canon massive size!!!

http://vaztor.blogspot.com/2011/10/super-smash-bros-wii-u-meet-ridley.html

 

[Starcutter]

But...but...if you pause it at exactly this frame, Ridley is actually his canon massive size!!!

http://vaztor.blogspot.com/2011/10/super-smash-bros-wii-u-meet-ridley.html

who's side are you on? lol

 

[BKupa666]

who's side are you on? lol

If you don't know by now, you never will.

 

[Deleted member]

really don't think olimar is a good example for size. since the camera is zoomed in on him, he looks relatively proportionate in brawl to his size in pikmin.

ridley takes up a larger chunk of the screen, making his relative size look funny.

not THAT big of a deal, but the pikmin argument isn't really the best one.




However, this one IS a good argument.

Except that in their established canons, Olimar is the size of a real world quarter (not including his antenna), which is less than 1 inch, while Kirby is established to be 8 inches tall (and Meta Knight is the same as Kirby).
That is the point I'm driving home. Olimar is way bigger than normal, and that's not even including the other characters in Brawl, which were all scaled up or down for all to be relative to each other.
Even within their own series, like Ganondorf. He is established to be 7 ft 6 inches, and in TP, Link is eye level to his stomach. In Brawl, Link is eye level to his chest.
And don't even get me started on the Pokémon characters, as that's a mess when you factor in not only the playable ones, but the Poké Ball summons and Rayquaza.

EDIT: Another notable one I will mention is Wario; he is consistently around Luigi's height (as in, taller than Mario), but in Brawl, he's slightly shorter than Mario.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

But...but...if you pause it at exactly this frame, Ridley is actually his canon massive size!!!

http://vaztor.blogspot.com/2011/10/super-smash-bros-wii-u-meet-ridley.html

I would like ridley but I really like that guy's argument.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I would like ridley but I really like that guy's argument.

what

 

[Starcutter]

Except that in their established canons, Olimar is the size of a real world quarter (not including his antenna), which is less than 1 inch, while Kirby is established to be 8 inches tall (and Meta Knight is the same as Kirby).
That is the point I'm driving home. Olimar is way bigger than normal, and that's not even including the other characters in Brawl, which were all scaled up or down for all to be relative to each other.
Even within their own series, like Ganondorf. He is established to be 7 ft 6 inches, and in TP, Link is eye level to his stomach. In Brawl, Link is eye level to his chest.
And don't even get me started on the Pokémon characters, as that's a mess when you factor in not only the playable ones, but the Poké Ball summons and Rayquaza.

you completely missed my point.

I played pikmin through the first couple levels, and I couldn't tell that he was small. same with kirby. always figured kirby was at least 3 feet.
when I played super metroid, I could ACTUALLY TELL he was big.

the pikmin/kirby argument is invalid.

the melee intro and the NES games ARE valid points, however.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

what

His logic is sound.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

His logic is sound.

 

[Starcutter]

don't read his posts. they BRAINWASH you.

and the fact that the hacks look good, but he thinks they look like crap just goes to show how farfetched people can get when trying to prove a point when there isn't much FACT.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I'm not. And saying that what was mentioned in that post is meaningless and irrelevant is the equivalent of plugging your ears and muttering to yourself. Its stubborn and childish.

I want Ridley in but I'm a bit tired of people dismissing the possibilities as stupid because they can't accept anything otherwise. There is a chance Ridley makes it and there is also a chance he doesn't.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I want Ridley in but I'm a bit tired of people dismissing the possibilities as stupid because they can't accept anything otherwise. There is a chance Ridley makes it and there is also a chance he doesn't.

I admit it's possible that Ridley won't get in Smash 4. I'm just saying that using his size as an argument, as many people have pointed out already, is not a good argument against his inclusion. There are legit reasons I could think as to why Ridley would be excluded from Smash: unlike other Nintendo villains, Ridley seems more bestial and savage, which IMO could be a point against him.

His size is not a good reason for his exclusion at all.
-Other characters that are usually "too big" or "too small" have been resized accordingly.
-Ridley has been resized several times before. He's even be resized in a single game(his size in his first cutscene in SSE is different from his size in his boss fights)

 

[Starcutter]

if size is YOUR ONLY ARGUMENT you can leave.

if you have more arguments, feel free to post them in a SOPHISTICATED and DIGNIFIED manor.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I don't want to get in a debate about size. That link above pretty thoroughly covered it. In fact i think some of it is an excellent rebuttal to what you just said.

The fact is Sakurai already chose once before to not include Ridley as a playable character. He used him as a boss twice in Brawl. I can tell you he definitely didn't do that in Brawl because he decided there wasn't enough fans rooting for him. What has changed now?

if size is YOUR ONLY ARGUMENT you can leave.

if you have more arguments, feel free to post them in a SOPHISTICATED and DIGNIFIED manor.

Its not. And to clarify I would LIKE Ridley to be in SSB4. But you are sort of proving my point about people ignoring the issue.

 

[Deleted member]

you completely missed my point.

I played pikmin through the first couple levels, and I couldn't tell that he was small. same with kirby. always figured kirby was at least 3 feet.
when I played super metroid, I could ACTUALLY TELL he was big.

the pikmin/kirby argument is invalid.

the melee intro and the NES games ARE valid points, however.

I didn't miss your point; your point is simply not sound and does not invalidate my argument.
The fact that you don't perceive Olimar to be small doesn't mean he isn't. He was given an established canon size, even in the instruction manual for the original game, showing him to be microscopic compared to Mario. When canon sizes are inconsistent within Brawl, especially in regards to a tiny character like Olimar, there is no excuse for a character as "large" as Ridley.

Aside from that, there are treasures throughout Pikmin 2 that establish how tiny Olimar really is; they are real-life Earth memorabilia. Including a R.O.B.'s head. Remember how R.O.B.'s in real life are 9 inches tall? Olimar is around half the size as the head.
That scene where Olimar fights a giant R.O.B. in the Subspace Emissary? More or less the actual size comparison.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I mean, they can keep Ridley at his cannon size just fine, no proportion warping required. That's not exactly screen-breakingly huge.

Isn't it about time that we drop the Ridley-too-big discussion?

 

[Oasis_S]

@Gingerbread Man: It would be easier to just personally attack you. Yeah, I think that's what I'd do.

I mean, if you don't get it by now...

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I mean, they can keep Ridley at his cannon size just fine, no proportion warping required. That's not exactly screen-breakingly huge.

Isn't it about time that we drop the Ridley-too-big discussion?

These old games didn't exactly have the best ability to do whatever they wanted. If you truly want to take after that appearance you should be doing that for more aspects of him. Like his wings that are the size of samus's arm. Truth is, that isn't the Ridley you want. You want the new ridley scaled down, using the size in that game as an excuse.

Also

This game from 24 years ago, the first game in the series before anything ever developed, and with technological limitation is cited as a primary argument, despite evidence from every other recent game.

Unfortunately, Metroid Zero Mission, a remake of the Original Metroid showcases the developers intentions with more up to date technology. Suddenly, Ridley looks like he always does.

 

[Deleted member]

Gingerbread Man, you really shouldn't be using Ridley's size as an argument. The biggest thing that Vaztor forgets is that Sakurai mentions nothing about size when discussing Ridley, which completely destroy's Vaztor's argument (along with all the reasons to believe that the size argument is horrible).

There was a reason why I linked that site and that was for us to laugh at Vaztor's destroying his own credibility (as if he hadn't done that enough with his disrespectful attitude towards others and his obsession with Ridley's size).

 

[Starcutter]

I didn't miss your point; your point is simply not sound and does not invalidate my argument.
The fact that you don't perceive Olimar to be small doesn't mean he isn't. He was given an established canon size, even in the instruction manual for the original game, showing him to be microscopic compared to Mario. When canon sizes are inconsistent within Brawl, especially in regards to a tiny character like Olimar, there is no excuse for a character as "large" as Ridley.

Aside from that, there are treasures throughout Pikmin 2 that establish how tiny Olimar really is; they are real-life Earth memorabilia. Including a R.O.B.'s head. Remember how R.O.B.'s in real life are 9 inches tall? Olimar is around half the size as the head.
That scene where Olimar fights a giant R.O.B. in the Subspace Emissary? More or less the actual size comparison.

so.... what we are arguing about is two different arguments altogether?


...I still think that how big the player THINKS the character is, is more important.

 

[Starcutter]

​

still can't beleive that he used this picture as an argument AGAINST ridley. makes no sense.​

 

[Oasis_S]

Also can we stop using the Melee Intro and NES Ridley as evidence. They miss the point entirely and lend credibility to the TOO BIG argument.

 

[Starcutter]

Also can we stop using the Melee Intro and NES Ridley as evidence. They miss the point entirely and lend credibility to the TOO BIG argument.

sure, not even acknowledging that argument would better for everybody anyways.

also auto-correct tried to correct acknowledging for rollerblading. wat?

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Sakurai isn't a desperate fan looking for ways to make Ridley playable. If anything the interviews have taught me that Sakurai puts an excessive amount of work in making the character like the ones from the game. Making Ridley that size IS NOT like him. He was perfectly fine having him represented as a boss in brawl. In fact I think hes better off as a boss. I get it, size isn't a reason to completely trash a character and all the potential and fame they have. But it can be a trait that distinguishes them from a boss and a character.


I truly want him in. The real argument here is why would he be better suited as a character than a boss? In this argument need for representation, popularity and fame are more so ignored because both a boss and playable character cover those bases.

 

[Knight Dude]

Oh, we're still talking about Ridley being too big or not. I don't suppose that anyone wants to talk about his potential moveset. Or maybe his Final smash? Alt costume?

 

[Dark Phazon]

Sakurai isn't a desperate fan looking for ways to make Ridley playable. If anything the interviews have taught me that Sakurai puts an excessive amount of work in making the character like the ones from the game. Making Ridley that size IS NOT like him. He was perfectly fine having him represented as a boss in brawl. In fact I think hes better off as a boss. I get it, size isn't a reason to completely trash a character and all the potential and fame they have. But it can be a trait that distinguishes them from a boss and a character.


I truly want him in. The real argument here is why would he be better suited as a character than a boss? In this argument need for representation, popularity and fame are more so ignored because both a boss and playable character cover those bases.

I like you.

 

[Bowserlick]

Size is a valid argument in context. The issue is not if Ridley is too big (the Olimar counter can effectively nullify that), but rather if Sakurai thinks Ridley is too big.

Sakurai made Ridley gigantic in the Subspace Emissary. And he included Zamus because he wanted another Metroid representative when the obvious choice was Ridley. It does seem like Sakurai can be biased against Ridley as a playable character.

However, this is the fourth edition. Fans really, really want Ridley. There are not too many "blow-out" characters left. Hopefully, Sakurai will change his mind (if indeed bias) and include Ridley.

 

[Oasis_S]

Because people want to play as him, what's the big deal.

You asked what has changed now, and while Ridley was popularly requested for Brawl, there were loads more characters that were MORE popular then, and SHOULD have been in before by him by all means. It is COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE why he was passed over in Brawl, as much as it may have sucked. So, what's changed now is that all of those other characters are out of the way, and Ridley stands amongst the top. Smash strikes a balance of adding very popular and well-known characters with the more obscure, and we're running out of the more well-known ones, so it's hard to imagine how Ridley could be passed up this time. It's not hard imagining OTHER characters aside from Ridley, but Ridley needs to stand BESIDE them to make a roster that makes the most people happy and entertained.

As for making characters like the ones from their games, I would argue the opposite. Characters in Smash are more like... caricatures. Sakurai throws away canon all willy-nilly and puts in his own ARTISTIC LIBERTIES just as much. So like, in this regard, all that matters about his size is that he must be bigger than Samus. That's it. That's doable. Hell, you can even make Samus smaller. There are no hard rules here.

 

[LaniusShrike]

@kewl
To be fair, we've all talked to death all the arguments for and against his inclusion and we've discussed multiple movesets. The smashboards in general are kind of just in a lull as we wait for actual news about the game... there just aren't new topics to discuss at Ridley, page 64.

We all agree that Ridley deserves inclusion somehow, and I think we can all agree that Sakurai could make him a character if he wanted to. Guessing what he'll do is difficult, since he's said a lot of things and also done a lot of things against it. We just have to remember that he's just a dude, though. He's not some political candidate trying to make sure nobody will catch him with inconsistencies, he's just someone idly responding to questions. If someone asks him about his thoughts on a character and he acts like he hasn't really considered it yet, chances are it's because he hasn't thought much about it. We can't hang on every sentence he randomly says as if it's gospel.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Because people want to play as him, what's the big deal.

You asked what has changed now, and while Ridley was popularly requested for Brawl, there were loads more characters that were MORE popular then, and SHOULD have been in before by him by all means. It is COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE why he was passed over in Brawl, as much as it may have sucked. So, what's changed now is that all of those other characters are out of the way, and Ridley stands amongst the top. Smash strikes a balance of adding very popular and well-known characters with the more obscure, and we're running out of the more well-known ones, so it's hard to imagine how Ridley could be passed up this time. It's not hard imagining OTHER characters aside from Ridley, but Ridley needs to stand BESIDE them to make a roster that makes the most people happy and entertained.

As for making characters like the ones from their games, I would argue the opposite. Characters in Smash are more like... caricatures. Sakurai throws away canon all willy-nilly and puts in his own ARTISTIC LIBERTIES just as much. So like, in this regard, all that matters about his size is that he must be bigger than Samus. That's it. That's doable. Hell, you can even make Samus smaller. There are no hard rules here.

I'm not saying that its impossible for him to be a character. I'm just trying to show that in the next game he might be a boss again. Its even very reasonable to think so.


I'm just really tired of people acting like hes 100% guaranteed and that a game without him would be ridiculous. Its up in the air. I just think there are too many fans flaunting around like hes the most likely newcomer and people who say otherwise are flat out stupid.

 

[Knight Dude]

@kewl
To be fair, we've all talked to death all the arguments for and against his inclusion and we've discussed multiple movesets. The smashboards in general are kind of just in a lull as we wait for actual news about the game... there just aren't new topics to discuss at Ridley, page 64.

We all agree that Ridley deserves inclusion somehow, and I think we can all agree that Sakurai could make him a character if he wanted to. Guessing what he'll do is difficult, since he's said a lot of things and also done a lot of things against it. We just have to remember that he's just a dude, though. He's not some political candidate trying to make sure nobody will catch him with inconsistencies, he's just someone idly responding to questions. If someone asks him about his thoughts on a character and he acts like he hasn't really considered it yet, chances are it's because he hasn't thought much about it. We can't hang on every sentence he randomly says as if it's gospel.

Well OK, fair point. I'm still kinda new here so I wasn't around for a good chunk of the discussion regarding Ridley. I might make my own Ridley moveset just for kicks.

 

[Oasis_S]

By the way, one reason Zamus was included is because, with the new Final Smash feature, Sakurai thought it would be cool to have a character that transformed via one. Since Zero Mission was released around the time development began, Zamus must have been fresh in his mind as a candidate for that. The "MORE FEMALES" and "MORE METROID" things are kind of bonuses.

As for Ridley being a boss, I wouldn't call it indicative of Sakurai's view of him. That he couldn't be playable. But because he is recognized as the second most prominent Metroid character and fairly popular, it was important to include him in some way. Smash is all about those little nods. Assist Trophies speak for themselves. Now, because the more popular characters were included in Brawl, that recognition and popularity Ridley has would go more toward him being viewed as playable material. You could say the same for Porky, though to a lesser extent. Metroid is full of bosses, even famous ones like Kraid or Mother Brain, so there's no shortage of Metroid bosses to fill Ridley absence should they need them.

 

[Deleted member]

The fact is Sakurai already chose once before to not include Ridley as a playable character. He used him as a boss twice in Brawl. I can tell you he definitely didn't do that in Brawl because he decided there wasn't enough fans rooting for him. What has changed now?

Back when Sakurai finalized the roster in July of 2005 (sans the late addition of Sonic in 2007), there was no logical reason to think of Ridley as a good choice, as he was barely popular within Japan as a Smash candidate (his following was more in the West; still is today) Even in Sakurai's pre-Melee poll, there was only one Metroid character being requested (though had very little requests), and that was the generic Metroid itself! This, of course can be attributed to the Metroid series as a whole not being that big in Japan compared to outside it.
Even after the trailer, Ridley was not that popular of a character in Japan, according to ChronoBound, this board's token translator of Japanese speculation. From the late October of 2007 (but before Dedede's reveal on the Dojo) up to release, the main requested characters were among Wolf, "Cat Eyes Link" (who we know as Toon Link now), King Dedede, Isaac, Olimar, and Lucario, with honorable mentions to Black Shadow, Micaiah, Bowser Jr., Midna, and Geno, but no Ridley.

Sakurai was also most likely unaware of Ridley's popularity in the West at that time of the finalization, given that the even the Western fans weren't all that vocal about him until after Brawl's trailer, which was shown off in E3 2006.

At this point, though, he is well aware of Ridley's popularity, given that Nintendo Power interview where Ridley is directly mentioned by the interviewer in regards to a rumor about him have been planned as a playable character and whether it was a consideration, leading to the infamous (and often misquoted and taken out of context) "pretty impossible, but workable with effort and would be slow" quote (obviously, I'm paraphrasing).
Not only that, but even the Japanese fanbase acknowledges Ridley's popularity within the West (same with Little Mac) despite not having significant popularity over there.

So I'd say he has a much better shot than he ever did in Brawl (which was practically none at all, given situations).

Sakurai made Ridley gigantic in the Subspace Emissary. And he included Zamus because he wanted another Metroid representative when the obvious choice was Ridley. It does seem like Sakurai can be biased against Ridley as a playable character.

Not by July 2005 standards, he wasn't.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Spoiler

Bowser: You think Ridley is too big?! Look at my gargantuan state, and yet I'm a Smash Bros. competitor!!

 

[LaniusShrike]

Well OK, fair point. I'm still kinda new here so I wasn't around for a good chunk of the discussion regarding Ridley. I might make my own Ridley moveset just for kicks.

The more movesets the better- you should try to make one without looking at anyone else's, I'm curious what people come up with independently... My theory is that everyone basically thinks he should have the same special attacks.

 

[Bowserlick]

Even if the most popular choice was Metroid by 2005, Zamus still got over Metroid as a playable character. Which means we have to try to guess by Sakurai's standards. To him, size can be an issue.

People cannot dismiss that his size could be a limiting factor to Sakurai. Because it can. Simple as that.

However, whether size is or was an issue now the character selection is dwindling. And Ridley seems to be around the top of the polls I have seen (which is admittingly only Shortie's).