Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[Oasis_S]

No reason to believe it would be. Sakurai's not an enigma.

 

[Bowserlick]

Well Oasis, I can count on your roster prediction being 100 percent accurate or at least 90 percent correct since Sakurai is not an enigma. Do you have it posted?

 

[Deleted member]

Even if the most popular choice was Metroid by 2005, Zamus still got over Metroid as a playable character. Which means we have to try to guess by Sakurai's standards. To him, size can be an issue.

Zamus being included for whatever reason is not mutually exclusive to Ridley being "too big".

Bear in mind that the only playable characters in the series at the time were Power Suit Samus (with all its varieties) and just recently Zero Suit Samus, something completely different from the norm. Zamus being another female character (despite being the same character) made Sakurai happy to include her.

 

[Dark Phazon]

So what like happens to this thread and like the 75+ or so pages it will have uptill E3 if Ridley along the lines is confirmed not in.

Do all these threads get locked and closed down? All the char thread that didnt make it?

 

[Deleted member]

So what like happens to this thread and like the 75+ or so pages it will have uptill E3 if Ridley along the lines is confirmed not in.

Do all these threads get locked and closed down? All the char thread that didnt make it?

Pretty much what happened to all of the Brawl threads of characters that didn't make it. The only ones that survived after Brawl were for the ones that got in.

 

[Oasis_S]

@Bowserlick: I don't actually. WHAT I MEAN IS THOUGH, Sakurai has given us plenty to go off of, he's not that hard to understand. There are some things you can say definitely will or will not happen.

 

[Dark Phazon]

@Bowserlick: I don't actually. WHAT I MEAN IS THOUGH, Sakurai has given us plenty to go off of, he's not that hard to understand. There are some things you can say definitely will or will not happen.

Sakurai is not hard to understand?

Hes worse than women..

Also i wasent here pre brawl so i dunno what happened to all the char threads that didnt make it thsts why i asked.

 

[Oasis_S]

Sakurai is not hard to understand?

Hes worse than women..

You are the joke.

This subforum won't be closed until after the game's release, if things work like Brawl did. Character threads aren't closed even if they're confirmed to not be playable. I believe newcomers don't get official threads/subforums until the game's release as well.

 

[Dark Phazon]

You are the joke.

This subforum won't be closed until after the game's release, if things work like Brawl did. Character threads aren't closed even if they're confirmed to not be playable. I believe newcomers don't get official threads/subforums until the game's release as well.

Ow i see ok iyt cool

 

[Bowserlick]

Zamus being included for whatever reason is not mutually exclusive to Ridley being "too big".

Bear in mind that the only playable characters in the series at the time were Power Suit Samus (with all its varieties) and just recently Zero Suit Samus, something completely different from the norm. Zamus being another female character (despite being the same character) made Sakurai happy to include her.

The point is that Sakurai has control of which characters get in. You argued that Ridley was not the most popular character to get in at 2005. Fine, but neither was Zamus and she got in. Sakurai doesn't always go by polls. He has reasons for selecting characters or not selecting characters. And Ridley's size compared to Samus's size might have been an issue.

And the hunters could have been decided to be playable characters at that time.

 

[Neanderthal]

I couldn't help but notice that this thread needs more Ridley art:

Spoiler

A decent moveset in there too.

 

[BKupa666]

Size? I'm more inclined to think that, if Ridley was purposefully skipped over for Brawl, it was due to him requiring "the best efforts" of the developers to put him in. And, you know, with 60% of development time allegedly being allotted toward the SSE, that might not have been in the cards. The team very well could have thought two boss appearances and the playability of literally every other popular character would be enough to placate fans until...two months from now at E3.

 

[Neanderthal]

Size? I'm more inclined to think that, if Ridley was purposefully skipped over for Brawl, it was due to him requiring "the best efforts" of the developers to put him in. And, you know, with 60% of development time allegedly being allotted toward the SSE, that might not have been in the cards. The team very well could have thought two boss appearances and the playability of literally every other popular character would be enough to placate fans until...two months from now at E3.

They didn't skip over Ganondorf (who's a more prominent and popular villain than Ridley) in Melee to give him their best efforts in the next game. And it's totally ruined who would have been an extremely popular SSB character if done right but is now almost a joke character.

 

[BKupa666]

They didn't skip over Ganondorf (who's a more prominent and popular villain than Ridley) in Melee to give him their best efforts in the next game. And it's totally ruined who would have been an extremely popular SSB character if done right but is now almost a joke character.

Must not have communicated my message clearly enough amid all the snark...the "best efforts" quote is from Sakurai's Nintendo Power interview, and is an indicator that Ridley would be a fairly labor-intensive character to design. Ganondorf, on the other hand, would have been skipped over if he hadn't shared Captain Falcon's body type, which made him an easy last-minute addition. Too bad the desire to satisfy the fans of a terrible moveset is preventing Sakurai from potentially luring new fans to an even better redesigned one.

 

[Deleted member]

The point is that Sakurai has control of which characters get in. You argued that Ridley was not the most popular character to get in at 2005. Fine, but neither was Zamus and she got in. Sakurai doesn't always go by polls. He has reasons for selecting characters or not selecting characters. And Ridley's size compared to Samus's size might have been an issue.

And the hunters could have been decided to be playable characters at that time.

You really do not listen, do you?
The only playable characters at the time where Samus and Zamus. The Hunters did not exist when Sakurai was deciding characters; they would debut the following year. And no, he couldn't have just "decided to add one later", as I'm willing to bet you're going to argue. The reason for the finalization process was to avoid adding characters to the roster later in production, as that causes issues. Sonic is a prime example of that; he was added to the roster so late that Brawl's release had to be delayed to accommodate him and his series.

The only other route he could have gone if Ridley was "too big" was Dark Samus, as Prime 2 came out months before the finalization. This obviously didn't happen.

You are also under the pretense that Sakurai deliberately chose not to include Ridley because he's "too big" (which is a bull**** argument in itself; it didn't stop Bowser nor did it stop the microscopic Olimar). I'm arguing for the fact that Sakurai wouldn't have had reason at all to even consider Ridley at that point in time because for all he knew, Ridley was just a generic fire breathing dragon no one cared about. And since (again, for all he knew) no one really cared about a specific Metroid character enough to begin with, Sakurai instead looked to a new "gimmick" for the existing one, by giving the character another form to play as from a recent game.
While it's true that not every character Sakurai includes has popularity to influence them, there Is only a minority that don't.

 

[Neanderthal]

Must not have communicated my message clearly enough amid all the snark...the "best efforts" quote is from Sakurai's Nintendo Power interview, and is an indicator that Ridley would be a fairly labor-intensive character to design. Ganondorf, on the other hand, would have been skipped over if he hadn't shared Captain Falcon's body type, which made him an easy last-minute addition. Too bad the desire to satisfy the fans of a terrible moveset is preventing Sakurai from potentially luring new fans to an even better redesigned one.

Ah gotcha and couldn't agree more about G'dorf.
Although we aren't yet sure if that's his reasoning for not fixing him. We know Brawl got rushed in the end so it's possible that it was intended to give him a new moveset until they realised their time constraints.

Let's just hope if Ridley gets in that they do him justice instead of just making him a Charizard clone!

 

[Oasis_S]

I wouldn't really call Brawl a rush job...? Anyway, Sakurai has said he kept the Melee clones similar so as not to alienate the players who enjoyed using them. So, from that, I wouldn't really expect them to change all that much, but it's possible they could receive the same amount of ALTERATIONS they were given for Brawl.

 

[Bowserlick]

You really do not listen, do you?
The only playable characters at the time where Samus and Zamus. The Hunters did not exist when Sakurai was deciding characters; they would debut the following year. And no, he couldn't have just "decided to add one later", as I'm willing to bet you're going to argue. The reason for the finalization process was to avoid adding characters to the roster later in production, as that causes issues. Sonic is a prime example of that; he was added to the roster so late that Brawl's release had to be delayed to accommodate him and his series.

The only other route he could have gone if Ridley was "too big" was Dark Samus, as Prime 2 came out months before the finalization. This obviously didn't happen.

You are also under the pretense that Sakurai deliberately chose not to include Ridley because he's "too big" (which is a bull**** argument in itself; it didn't stop Bowser nor did it stop the microscopic Olimar). I'm arguing for the fact that Sakurai wouldn't have had reason at all to even consider Ridley at that point in time because for all he knew, Ridley was just a generic fire breathing dragon no one cared about. And since (again, for all he knew) no one really cared about a specific Metroid character enough to begin with, Sakurai instead looked to a new "gimmick" for the existing one, by giving the character another form to play as from a recent game.
While it's true that not every character Sakurai includes has popularity to influence them, there Is only a minority that don't.

Metroid Hunters was released in 2006. The characters probably existed before the roster finalization process. Sakurai could have included a Hunter just as he included Roy before his game. I do listen, I just use logic.

I am saying that Sakurai could have not included Ridley because he thought he was too big ( in relation to Samus). Who would have guessed Doctor Mario for Melee? I am just saying that people screaming about the "too big" argument not existing in the mind of Sakurai is crazy. It could have been so.

Your screaming is not akin to logic. If it is, your roster prediction better be spot on. Because somehow you know how Sakurai thinks.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Metroid Hunters was released in 2006. The characters probably existed before the roster finalization process. Sakurai could have included a Hunter just as he included Roy before his game. I do listen, I just use logic..

Thing is, Sakurai knew that Roy would catch on, in both Melee and his own series.

None of the Hunters ever caught on. Even in their own series. Another problem with the hunter logic is... who would he pick?

None of the hunters are more important than each other and none of them are portrayed as more important. People only go for Sylux because they think that his ship follows Samus in the end of Metroid Prime 3 (when there is no proof whatsoever), not because he's popular or more important than the others.

 

[Bowserlick]

Thing is, Sakurai knew that Roy would catch on, in both Melee and his own series.

None of the Hunters ever caught on. Even in their own series. Another problem with the hunter logic is... who would he pick?

None of the hunters are more important than each other and none of them are portrayed as more important. People only go for Sylux because they think that his ship follows Samus in the end of Metroid Prime 3 (when there is no proof whatsoever), not because he's popular or more important than the others.

No, Sakurai didn't know Roy would catch on. You are wrong. He could have thought Roy would catch on based on FE sales, experience, luck or anything else but he didn't know.

And if a Hunter was in the game, don't you think the hunters would catch on by your predictions?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

No, Sakurai didn't know Roy would catch on. You are wrong. He could have thought Roy would catch on based on FE sales, experience, luck or anything else but he didn't know.

Alright, I guess he didn't KNOW but he made a correct prediction. My logic still stands.

Roy had potential and Sakurai noticed this.

None of the hunters had potential and Sakurai noticed this.

 

[Neanderthal]

I wouldn't really call Brawl a rush job...?

No, but it was specifically with characters just at the end when they were running out of time.

 

[FalKoopa]

lol, another huge debate here? I can just sit back and watch.

 

[Deleted member]

Metroid Hunters was released in 2006. The characters probably existed before the roster finalization process. Sakurai could have included a Hunter just as he included Roy before his game. I do listen, I just use logic.

Never use Roy as a an excuse. Roy was not initially planned for Melee's roster, and only came to be because Sakurai wanted to boost the roster later in production with easy to add clones (or "model swaps" as he called them). When in the process of finding working clones, he was given a sneak peek into Roy, and that's who he decided on as a clone for Marth because he had a gut feeling that people would like him and to advertise the upcoming game (and the series as a whole).
Seeing as none of the Hunters were anything special and were just minor characters that happened to be playable, even if Sakurai knew of their existence ahead of time, it's hard to believe he'd actually go with one as a character.

I am saying that Sakurai could have not included Ridley because he thought he was too big ( in relation to Samus). Who would have guessed Doctor Mario for Melee? I am just saying that people screaming about the "too big" argument not existing in the mind of Sakurai is crazy. It could have been so.

Alright, I will say that it literally "could" have been that way, but it is very unlikely to have happened because it's absolutely ridiculous and filled with glaring holes in logic.
Just like Sakurai could have decided Ridley was too "homosexual" and purple and went to Zamus instead because boobs. You cannot deny that as a possibility without being a hypocrite.

Your screaming is not akin to logic. If it is, your roster prediction better be spot on. Because somehow you know how Sakurai thinks.

First you accuse me of being "emo", now you accuse me of "screaming" when I have given full analysis of logic based on events that actually happened and factual information rather than "what ifs" and excuses like you have done nothing but.
I am going to give you one chance to show me why I should bother actually taking you seriously anymore instead of seeing you as nothing but a troll.

 

[Oasis_S]

Alright, I will say that it literally "could" have been that way, but it is very unlikely to have happened because it's absolutely ridiculous and filled with glaring holes in logic.

Just like Sakurai could have decided Ridley was too "homosexual" and purple and went to Zamus instead because boobs. You cannot deny that as a possibility without being a hypocrite.

YOU SEE, that's a good example of why it's a waste of time to consider all possibilities. When all signs point to one thing, you may as well just say it's going to happen. Like when people give some (arbitrary) percentage of likelihood to characters, marking down guys like Ridley or K. Rool to 75% percent or whatever based on really flimsy reasoning. You don't mark them down like the just because arguments EXIST. If no reasonable person would actually consider those arguments, they really shouldn't be accounted for.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Arguments can be made against any character. Even Mario.

 

[Deleted member]

Arguments can be made against any character. Even Mario.

Capcom didn't have Mega Man in their fighting game, so it shows that Nintendo doesn't absolutely have to have Mario in theirs.
Luigi will serve fine on his own; he's always been the better brother.

 

[Deleted member]

YOU SEE, that's a good example of why it's a waste of time to consider all possibilities. When all signs point to one thing, you may as well just say it's going to happen. Like when people give some (arbitrary) percentage of likelihood to characters, marking down guys like Ridley or K. Rool to 75% percent or whatever based on really flimsy reasoning. You don't mark them down like the just because arguments EXIST. If no reasonable person would actually consider those arguments, they really shouldn't be accounted for.

This.

I've learned the hard way that trying to decide chances based on one insignificant event was not how to judge a character (see, Victini). The character needs to be analyzed for the overall worth they have and one event that doesn't necessarily relate to the character shouldn't arbitrarily inflate the chance of that character.

If the positive of the character overwhelmingly outdoes that of the negative, it shouldn't be unreasonable to be confident (or at least be strongly optimistic about) in that character's inclusion. That's why I feel confident in Mewtwo, King K. Rool, Takamaru, Shulk, Palutena, Ridley and Little Mac being included in the next game. Sure I'm not necessarily going to say they're guarantee (okay, I'll make an exception for Mewtwo), but whatever negative they may have isn't really worth much discussion.

 

[Deleted member]

Aside from that, how'd we get from this:

(And bear in mind, Ash's Charizard is one of the smaller ones of its species)

to this:

???

Either Charizard is too big for Smash or Pikachu is too small for Smash. And yet....here we are. Major size inconsistency galore with in-universe characters. So again, the "too big" bull**** is nothing but bull****.

 

[Oasis_S]

Pokemon is a pretty good example of the kind of general sense of scale Smash goes for. Pikachu is "small" and Charizard is "big." It really doesn't get any more complex than that. Which is why I say Ridley only has to be bigger than Samus. She doesn't have to be able to fit inside his mouth or palm. Just smaller than him, that's it. Sense of scale reached, as far as Smash is concerned.

Though not really important, I mentioned how you could also make Samus smaller, since Other M seems to have done that. If you do that, and make Ridley a tad taller than Bowser, the size difference would be considerable. I honestly don't think it's necessary, but the option is there.

 

[Deleted member]

I would say make Power Suit as tall as Zero Suit, because (correct me if I'm wrong), didn't Other M establish that it's the same height?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I would say make Power Suit as tall as Zero Suit, because (correct me if I'm wrong), didn't Other M establish that it's the same height?

Well kinda.

Other M made her shoulders smaller making her head her tallest feature. This makes both forms of Samus the same height.

However...

If the shoulders are the same size as Brawl...

Then Power Suit Samus should be just a tad taller. It just depends on how Sakurai wants Samus to look.

 

[Neanderthal]

Even if the most popular choice was Metroid by 2005, Zamus still got over Metroid as a playable character. Which means we have to try to guess by Sakurai's standards. To him, size can be an issue.

People cannot dismiss that his size could be a limiting factor to Sakurai. Because it can. Simple as that.

However, whether size is or was an issue now the character selection is dwindling. And Ridley seems to be around the top of the polls I have seen (which is admittingly only Shortie's).

Actually have to agree with Bowserlick here even though I'm a Ridley supporter who thinks he has a high chance.
It could very well have been a deciding factor.

However we've seen Sakurai overlook things that he sees as obstacles when he really wants to put a character in for other reasons. Hopefully he really wants to put Ridley in SSB4 and is willing to work around any obstacles he see's.

 

[Deleted member]

Though what about Zero Suit? There is a size difference between the two forms in Brawl.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Though what about Zero Suit? There is a size difference between the two forms in Brawl.

Essentially what I'm saying is that in Brawl, Power Suit Samus gets her extra height from her shoulders.

 

[Deleted member]

I recently got a comparison of the two in T-stance from M&S Guy.
Zamus is shorter, and I don't mean by the shoulder pads.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I recently got a comparison of the two in T-stance from M&S Guy.
Zamus is shorter, and I don't mean by the shoulder pads.

Well then, I got nothing.

 

[Neanderthal]

Well then, I got nothing.

What about the boots? Or the helmet?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What about the boots? Or the helmet?

The helmet doesn't make Samus that much taller.

And ZSS has boots too.

 

[Neanderthal]

The helmet doesn't make Samus that much taller.

And ZSS has boots too.

Maybe Samus's boots are thicker...

Anyway, this is only the sort of thing you would ever notice if it was pointed out to you so meh.