This Mage's Stages! Counterpick Thread, Discussing: Diddy!

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Why do we say its not? Explain please This is why I asked.

because marth is good against us by default, and this stage has nothing to assuage that.

in fact, it just lets him space with fair all day.

 

[zeldspazz]

because marth is good against us by default, and this stage has nothing to assuage that.

in fact, it just lets him space with fair all day.

My thinking track is that platform dont really hinder his fair spacing much, makes me feel closed in which is horrible against Marth, and platforms open up more good things for him than us imo

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I really like platforms though....... I'd probably deal with it based on how well a particular marth uses platforms

 

[Half-Split Soul]

What zeldspazz said is pretty much why I take Marths to FD too.

I don't have any objections against other stages on his list either.

 

[zeldspazz]

Well Kyle, Im just gonna go with majority on this one, so once one or 2 more post their opinion, we'll see. Its not like you have to follow it anyway, its a generally accepted stage, everyone will find something comfortable that they like.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well Kyle, Im just gonna go with majority on this one, so once one or 2 more post their opinion, we'll see. Its not like you have to follow it anyway, its a generally accepted stage, everyone will find something comfortable that they like.

I wasn't fighting the majority... I was legitamately curious that I might be doing something wrong. But eh, FD is one of those that I probably wouldn;t JUMP to, but I don't hate it either... I still feel disadvantaged there though. . . . welll..... anywhere really.

 

[zeldspazz]

You...do something wrong??

Impossible good sir ^_^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You...do something wrong??

Impossible good sir ^_^

I was attempting to show what the common man calls "humility."

Being humble is hard



but, yeah, guess I'll try FD more though, really, I go sheik heavy in this matchup normally anyway.

 

[zeldspazz]

Ok, then Im gonna update the OP in the morning and go onto Falco.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ok, then Im gonna update the OP in the morning and go onto Falco.

Alright cool and after falco can we discuss d3?

 

[Reizilla]

since it seems no marths ever came in here, the general consesus for marths is that platforms = win (not literally, but you know what I mean) and basically the only time a marth should ever choose FD is against a character (MK only) that uses platforms better than him. Marth abuses platforms really well and I think it more than overrides a gimmick trip -> fair from zelda. except on maybe yoshi's island where you might actually be fighting on top of a drop through plat for a significant amount of time.

Also thought I'd add...didn't really read the whole discussion and I don't know what stages play to Zelda's strengths, but Marth does terrible on RC, Japes, and Frigate. Basically any place where you can make him dolphin slash without sweet-spotting consistently is really bad.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Hello, Zelda Boards.

I'm not a Marth mainer, but I do have quite a bit of knowledge on his overall metagame, and after reading the last few posts of this discussion, I figured I would just state a few things about Marth that could possibly help the topic. I'm not sure if you've come to a valid conclusion yet, so if you have, you can disregard my post.

Marth is a god on platforms. I'll just tell you all that for a well known fact. If a Zelda was to take Marth to a stage with platforms it's going to end up being bad news, due to him having so many combo setups that deal with fastfalling through platforms.

(Starting at percents below 25%)
Fastfall through a platform -> Uair -> Upsmash
Fastfall through a platform -> Uair -> Utilt
Fastfall through a platform -> Uair -> Uair
Fastfall through a platform -> Uair -> Nair

(Starting at any percent)
Fastfall through a platform -> First hit of Nair-> Smash attack.
Fastfall through a platform -> First hit of Nair-> Ftilt
Fastfall through a platform -> First hit of Nair-> Utilt
Fastfall through a platform -> First hit of Nair-> Dancing Blade.
Fastfall through a platform -> First hit of Nair-> Up+b

Unfortunately, this can prove fatal to most characters on the roster, and considering the two side platforms on Battlefield leave just enough space from the ground for Marth's combos to start up, it can be a difficulty if he was to get an edge like that.


Seeing how Zelda would have trouble recovering against a Marth, I would recommend keeping him away from a stage like Battlefield. Small stages with platforms leave Zelda with little control over the stage due to Marth's lagless attacks, range and the ability chase her off the stage for a KO and make a decent recovery.




A good stage for Zelda to keep an edge on would probably be... Jungle Japes, due to her having amazing horizontal recovery, and Marth has more up a vertical one. If you can pressure him into the river, he's done for if you can keep him down long enough to pass the last platform on the left.

Smashville would be decent, since the platform is constantly moving, a Zelda may be able to use it to her advantage rather than it giving Marth the satisfaction he needs for a combo starter. You would just need to avoid giving into Marth's Fair approach, considering it can pressure you off the stage just as easily as any other.

 

[zeldspazz]

Thanks you 2, we have in fact come to a decision about platforms that fits what you guys are saying, so the imput was appreciated

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well I'll start it off I think falco's 3 best stages are Battlefield Rainbow cruise and final D. so I would try to avoid those stages.

 

[-Mars-]

You have just showed that you know nothing about Falco.

 

[zeldspazz]

You have just showed that you know nothing about Falco.

So, Im guessing this is why he wanted this discussion so he could learn something. Theres nothing wrong with that. Also, whats your opinion on where to take Falco?

Im thinking Castle Siege atm, since on the first transformation the uneven ground deteriorates the effectiveness of lazer spamming, and the platforms + small blast zones cause platform pressure and easy KOs. The second one stop lazer spam almost completely thanks to the statues, and Dins goes through those. He also cant CG us effectively, so the walkoff is no problem. There are lots of platforms for uair killing as well. The only one giving Zelda some trouble is the third transformation, but even then it tilts just like Lylat, so lazer spamming is a little less effictive here as well.

While we're tlaking about Lylat, Im thinking this is a good place as well due to tilting, platforms, and Falco also having a hard time recovering as well if we get him below the stage.

 

[-Mars-]

Japes is Falco's best stage so ban that.

I actually like the idea of Castle Siege a lot. Seems like it would hurt Falco's game a lot more than it would hurt Zelda's.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You have just showed that you know nothing about Falco.

So what neutrals would you be willing to take falco to?

Japes is Falco's best stage so ban that.

I actually like the idea of Castle Siege a lot. Seems like it would hurt Falco's game a lot more than it would hurt Zelda's.

Japes in banned in NJ. So after japes what stage would you ban?

 

[-Mars-]

Ban FD. Play on Lylat, SV, or BF.

 

[zeldspazz]

I was thinking ban FD as well.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ban FD. Play on Lylat, SV, or BF.

I was always under the impression that Battle field was one of falco's better stage. Care to explain why you'd want to take him there? Lylat or Yoshi's seem like the best neutrals to start on in this match up.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ban: Japes:

Counterpick: Luigi's

Neutral of choice: Battlefield

Neutral to avoid: Final Destination

 

[zeldspazz]

I think we should think of counters that are on the counter list in the OP, since Luigis is kind of a given that its an awesome Zelda stage, but its usually banned.

I agree with everything else though, I would just like to hear an explaination for Battlefield as well

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

of the listed Counterpicks, I think castle seige is pretty good.


And whoever said that battlefield is a better stage against pika than mansion is is huffing fumes... unless the sole reason BF is listed as best is because it's never banned.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

And whoever said that battlefield is a better stage against pika than mansion is is huffing fumes... unless the sole reason BF is listed as best is because it's never banned.

You just explained it yourself: BF is always available while LM is almost guaranteed to be banned. BF is also more complex choice so it needs the detailed summary more.

The reasons why BF would work against against Falco are mostly related to its size. There isn't enough room for him to laser camp as effectively as he'd like to, making it easier for Zelda to approach. The small boundaries also help her more with killing than they do Falco and the platforms are just as useful as ever.

 

[-Mars-]

I don't get why everyone is so crazy about Luigi's anyways. The ledges screw us over, most characters have long duration moves that they can abuse on the pillars, and most characters in the game have easy as hell jab-lock setups on the stage. Like would you want to take Pika to Luigi's and have to deal with his dsmash? I sure wouldn't.

I think Yoshi's is a terrible Zelda stage. Maybe it's just me but not only do the walls mess up her recovery but it seems like everything about the stage just feels akward and gets in the way.

BF isn't a terrible Falco stage but it's one of Zelda's better stages. The stage layout allows you to have more chances at landing an early percentage KO and the platforms and small space would help out when trying to deal with Falco's camp game.

 

[zeldspazz]

I think Yoshi's is a terrible Zelda stage. Maybe it's just me but not only do the walls mess up her recovery but it seems like everything about the stage just feels akward and gets in the way.

I agree with this, the layout just screws me over >_> Plus, soemtimes Im extremely stupid and accidently Dins on the edges to fall to death, but thats more a stupidity problem that stage unless Sakurai was smart and didnt have Zelda free fall after Dins

Also, how come when you try to recover verticall next to a wall and you hold up on the control stick, you end up just FW in place and freefall to death?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't get why everyone is so crazy about Luigi's anyways.

It's zelda's best stage for a reason. And it's also, arguably, pikachu's worst. The stage swings the matchup massively in zelda's advantage. It may be banned many places, but, wherever it isn't, it ***** to choose it in this matchup.

Against falco, it also works very well.


I say out of counterpick stages, I'd choose castle seige. It's a hard stage for him to laser camp due to size and layout.

 

[Kataefi]

I really think we don't need to ban japes. It sounds absurd but I'd be a lot more scared of FD than japes personally =O

Just abuse ledge invincibility with FW to sneak in closer if he camps or runs away. If he laser camps on the far platforms, get in close on the bottom one and din's fire him... from this positioning it will threaten him and he'll be forced to move.

He's restricted to horizontal kills and his Fsmash is unsafe on block. It's not a good combination on Zelda where she can bair OoS attempt. Nayru's momentum cancelling is good for his bair. You can live for such a long time here! Lightning kicks, uairs, sweetspot spikes really don't care for the blastzones so they're threats for him in contrast.

On the right side you have 4 ledges to snap to (the right 2 ledges, plus dropping into the water snapping to the other 2 on the left side)... and on the left you have 2. There's a lot of options for recovery here so you can always hang back if he chases for a spike. I think Zelda can handle the water current really well (I don't think it screws with her recovery as much as others).

I only say this because Japes is one of my fave stages in general so don't take what I say too seriously haha! I just really like it. There was a video of villi when he was active doing some pretty good **** against a campy falco on japes... all his stuff is gone now so I can't really visually support any of my points >.>

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Also, how come when you try to recover verticall next to a wall and you hold up on the control stick, you end up just FW in place and freefall to death?

There're two reasons:

1. The stage doesn't go all the way down, so it's possible to go under the main platform and get stuck because of that. This makes sense.
2. The side of the stage isn't smooth so when you're recovering right next to it the game counts that you hit a solid wall and stops all of FW's movement. AFAIK this only happens to Zelda and doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[zeldspazz]

Interesting Kata, although I really think the water is just awful do to if you miss the ledge with your jump, FW has to much startup to use that so bye bye Zelda lol.

And did you get my vm about Frigate?

Edit: Thanks HSS

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah! I'm really bad at replying! I'll write something about Frigate and post it here... but it'll just look almost exactly like my last post aboooot frigate!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

There're two reasons:

1. The stage doesn't go all the way down, so it's possible to go under the main platform and get stuck because of that. This makes sense.
2. The side of the stage isn't smooth so when you're recovering right next to it the game counts that you hit a solid wall and stops all of FW's movement. AFAIK this only happens to Zelda and doesn't make any sense at all.

because farore's and vanish are the only recoveries that lose all momentum upon hitting a wall. it can happen on pictochat too.

Zelda keeps forward momentum, so if you use farore's after making it to a wall, you WILL be cancelled by it if youtry to go straight up.

Zelda is maneuverable enough. Take a couple frames to back away from the wall a scoche and use farore's then.

 

[zeldspazz]

Zelda is maneuverable enough. Take a couple frames to back away from the wall a scoche and use farore's then.

Or let go of the control stick when you input up-b.

Anywayz lets get back on topic ppl Im sorry I lead us offtopic in the first place.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't get why everyone is so crazy about Luigi's anyways. The ledges screw us over, most characters have long duration moves that they can abuse on the pillars, and most characters in the game have easy as hell jab-lock setups on the stage. Like would you want to take Pika to Luigi's and have to deal with his dsmash? I sure wouldn't.

I think Yoshi's is a terrible Zelda stage. Maybe it's just me but not only do the walls mess up her recovery but it seems like everything about the stage just feels akward and gets in the way.

BF isn't a terrible Falco stage but it's one of Zelda's better stages. The stage layout allows you to have more chances at landing an early percentage KO and the platforms and small space would help out when trying to deal with Falco's camp game.

Di away from the walls on yoshi then FW to then diagonally angle up to whatever ledge you're face and you should snap to the ledge.

 

[-Mars-]

It's zelda's best stage for a reason.

And why may that be? because of the pillars and Zelda's long-duration smashes? Any character with a jab lock will **** you on this stage.

Di away from the walls on yoshi then FW to then diagonally angle up to whatever ledge you're face and you should snap to the ledge.

Yes I am aware of this. I am more annoyed at the way everything about the stage just gets in the way.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

And why may that be? because of the pillars and Zelda's long-duration smashes? Any character with a jab lock will **** you on this stage.

Jab locks are often banned or limited, at least in some areas.

Even though I personally don't like playing on Mansion one bit, the advantages it gives to Zelda in most matchups are pretty clear. She doesn't have to approach, she can outcamp people with Din and D-smash becomes extremely deadly finisher. The stage also offers more than plenty setups for LKs and Uairs. Her recovery is enhanced as well (from a certain viewpoint) as the side blastzones are so close FW won't be as needed as much as in many other stages.

Those are what I can come up with right away.

 

[KayLo!]

It's zelda's best stage for a reason. And it's also, arguably, pikachu's worst. The stage swings the matchup massively in zelda's advantage. It may be banned many places, but, wherever it isn't, it ***** to choose it in this matchup.

Brinstar is much more common and probably worse for Pika than Luigi's. It's not that hard to grab Zelda, and once we get a grab while the mansion's up, you've just lost your stock to a jab lock. Plus if we break the house, which isn't that hard since Zelda's too slow to prevent it (and she might do it for us with wtfstrong Din's), it's just like FD with a higher ceiling.

So, second-worst, but we can still handle it.

EDIT: ****, ninja'd. HSS (sorry! x.x), I've never seen a tournament where jab locking is banned. It's normally not that easy to set up.... if you go to Luigi's vs. a character with a jab lock, that's a risk you're knowingly taking.

On Falco so I stay on-topic:

Ban FD. Flat, laser/side-b spam, etc. Or avoid Japes if it's legal.

CP Castle Siege or BF. I think people've gone over both, but I can expand on that if neccesary.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Brinstar is much more common and probably worse for Pika than Luigi's. It's not that hard to grab Zelda, and once we get a grab while the mansion's up, you've just lost your stock to a jab lock. Plus if we break the house, which isn't that hard since Zelda's too slow to prevent it (and she might do it for us with wtfstrong Din's), it's just like FD with a higher ceiling.

EDIT: ****, ninja'd. Mars, I've never seen a tournament where jab locking is banned. It's not that easy to set up.... if you go to Luigi's vs. a character with a jab lock, that's a risk you're knowingly taking.

So, second-worst, but we can still handle it.

On Falco so I stay on-topic:

Ban FD. Flat, laser/side-b spam, etc. Or avoid Japes if it's legal.

CP Castle Siege or BF. I think people've gone over both, but I can expand on that if neccesary.

Can you explain Battlefield.

 

[KayLo!]

Can you explain Battlefield.

BF doesn't really help Zelda a ****ton, but imo, sticking to fairly neutral stages is always better. She doesn't do well on stages with a lot of gimpy shenanigans, and BF's platforms + small size limit Falco's camp game somewhat. Keeps him close, so he can't run away to reset his laser spam as easily as he could on a larger stage.... and Zelda can take advantage of the platforms if he's above her, as usual.

I might also consider Pokemon Stadium 1. There're a lot of places where you could hide from his laser spam during transformations, and as far as I can see, he doesn't gain many tricks from the stage. But.... I've never played Falco there, so that's up for discussion. Recovery can be a headache there as well.