Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[Requiem Strider]

I'm at work right now, but I'll happily verify the data as soon as I get home.

Edit: @ LancerStaff , I tested original GO with both angels, they have the same windbox. I only tested Breezy Flight for Dark Pit, the other 3DS hasn't unlocked Pit's Breezy Flight, so I couldn't test his. As far as testing goes, they look the same. I used the Breezy Flight against Sandbag only, I'll try using it against a fighter in a second.

Edit: Yeah, same result in both versions. Do note that I'm only activating them when I'm right next to the opponent. Perhaps the windbox change was affected to work the same due to DI change? If that were the case, all windbox data for characters that have one should have been edited as well. That is, if windbox is affected by DI.

 

[Clemente]

How do you guys deal with Mega Man? I feel like I've gotten pretty good with Pit but when it comes to Mega I'm just not sure how to get close to him at all. He can keep me pushed back on ground and in air. Our reflect doesn't work on almost any of his attacks, except for his F-smash.

 

[Claxus]

All his offensive specials can be reflected... So can his neutral shots, but that's a bad idea. Even his D-air and U-air can be reflected, though those are tricky for Pit. Definitely not just F-smash...

Mega Man tends to be more defensive, but he struggles once he loses momentum, since basically his entire moveset is made around spacing. F-air and B-air are the biggest threats once you're close, they're very fast and have excellent range and priority. Not that much landing lag, either. But if you can air dodge them, you can usually punish him with an aerial. If you can shield them Pit has great punishing options. Most of his ground options are super laggy, so just be wary of those and you can hard punish them with a dodge or block.

Try to get used to reacting to and catching Metal Blades, not reflecting (super easy with a dash attack if you have the space). It will limit their spacing and approaches, while you can use it to cover your own approach instead, and do Mega Man style stuff with throwing it downwards. Anyway, I would use tilts and dash attacks to try and throw them off balance and punish, then go aggressive with aerials. In neutral he has the advantage, so you have to play it safe until they're open. F-air would be my choice of attacking him in the air in neutral, since its range and speed will challenge his. He has quite a blind spot below him, too, as his D-air is slow.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm at work right now, but I'll happily verify the data as soon as I get home.

Edit: @ LancerStaff , I tested original GO with both angels, they have the same windbox. I only tested Breezy Flight for Dark Pit, the other 3DS hasn't unlocked Pit's Breezy Flight, so I couldn't test his. As far as testing goes, they look the same. I used the Breezy Flight against Sandbag only, I'll try using it against a fighter in a second.

Edit: Yeah, same result in both versions. Do note that I'm only activating them when I'm right next to the opponent. Perhaps the windbox change was affected to work the same due to DI change? If that were the case, all windbox data for characters that have one should have been edited as well. That is, if windbox is affected by DI.

Thanks for looking.
Although windboxes shouldn't be effected by DI, since DI only works when in KB.

Oh, and I got the Wii U version guys. Just a few things I noticed so far...

Be really careful when trying to recover on Omega Lylat Cruise on SSBU. Hitting any part of the underside of the stage with the PoF stops you cold instead of sliding up. Bleh, I just about have to forfeit the match when it gets picked.

Blast Zones are significantly closer, meaning we'll KO quicker. Not entirely sure how I feel about the change myself, but the top BZ being so much lower means the Upperdash KOs a whole 10% quicker. Speaking of which...

Upperdashing off the side of the stage is still safe on Omegas, even with the close BZs. Although you'll need to be careful if you have a decent amount of speed equipment.

And retreating Fairs and Bairs are freakin' awesome.

Oh, and about my guide. I'm going to make absolutely sure it's redone right this week. And when that doesn't happen I'll get all the Wii U KO%s to boot. I'll even answer any questions you guys have as soon as I can, although there's really not much to know.

 

[CHOMPY]

Do you set the C-Stick to Attack, so you can perform retreating fairs and bairs?

 

[LancerStaff]

Do you set the C-Stick to Attack, so you can perform retreating fairs and bairs?

Yep, and it works wonders. Still tryin' to do Smash attacks with it though.

 

[Clemente]

Thoughts on Pit vs Ness?

 

[LancerStaff]

Thoughts on Pit vs Ness?

Hard to say, since I haven't really fought any good ones on either game. Although GOs reflecting and pushing makes it easy to gimp him.

 

[ReRaze]

Thoughts on Pit vs Ness?

knock him off, edgeguard him till he loses his jumps, then jump on him with your Guardian Orbitars (as he tries to recover). gg.

 

[FlareHabanero]

With Ness, there are a few details to remember. Palutena Bow is your ace in the whole, since an uncharged shot is strong enough to cancel PK Thunder or alternatively you can keep pelting Ness and interupt the recover attempts. Just remember to not be too greedy, a Ness player can use PSI Magnet to absorb the shots and recover. In fact, Pit has a general advantage with range, with most of his normals being slightly larger then Ness' attack.

 

[extremelotus]

Ok somebody posted a mini guide video on dark pit somewhere on this fourm. And in the video, he mentioned that if you use your electroshock at a certain distance by the edge and you fall off, you won't have any falling lag, as if the move cancelled out. We'll I just figured out something. If your on the ledge and you roll forward, the distance that you rolled is the same exact distance that if you used your electroshock, it will cancel out. Sorry if I didn't make sense. I tried to explain it the best I can. Try it out and see if it works.

 

[LancerStaff]

Actually just figured this out myself the other day. Although it works better if you take another step away from the ledge.

 

[Ikieri]

Do you mean walk to the edge and then roll? Or grab the ledge and ledge roll?

 

[Tsutori]

I fought my friend who mains Little Mac the other day. He kept using his counter on my aerials every time I hit him away from the edge to prevent me from pushing him away even further. Any tips on how to deal with this? I figure I might just have to get better at reading the counters.

 

[LancerStaff]

I fought my friend who mains Little Mac the other day. He kept using his counter on my aerials every time I hit him away from the edge to prevent me from pushing him away even further. Any tips on how to deal with this? I figure I might just have to get better at reading the counters.

Normal Guardians would push him away, but yeah, you probably just need practice.

 

[Tsutori]

Normal Guardians would push him away, but yeah, you probably just need practice.

Oooh, I forgot about the Guardians :'| I'll keep that in mind for next time, thanks.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If you know he is going to Counter, go for a grab or wait for the Counter to come out and then punish.

 

[Clemente]

I fought my friend who mains Little Mac the other day. He kept using his counter on my aerials every time I hit him away from the edge to prevent me from pushing him away even further. Any tips on how to deal with this? I figure I might just have to get better at reading the counters.

If you use regular Pit you could also aim your arrows up/down to shoot them repeatedly while they're trying to get back onto the stage. With some practice, I'm actually very accurate at doing this now, and it gets me a lot of kills.

With Ness, there are a few details to remember. Palutena Bow is your ace in the whole, since an uncharged shot is strong enough to cancel PK Thunder or alternatively you can keep pelting Ness and interupt the recover attempts. Just remember to not be too greedy, a Ness player can use PSI Magnet to absorb the shots and recover. In fact, Pit has a general advantage with range, with most of his normals being slightly larger then Ness' attack.

Yeah, I have a lot of success with the match up now. I think I was just a little blown away at first by how much damage Ness can do in this game. As far as his down-B, you can do some good damage if you bait him into using it and then move in... and if he does absorb an arrow, it's not the end of the world.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

So I just found out the wind boxes Pits standard orbitars make it so he can't reflect Pac-Man's fruit outside of the Galaxian, the Bell and maybe the Melon at a distance. At point blank they will still hit Pac-Man, but most of them will just bounce uselessly on the ground if reflected from a distance, though the Melon just flies almost straight up, and so will the Bell if you reflect it as its descending. Amplifying Orbitars reflect it all fine of course, as theres no wind box.

 

[LancerStaff]

So I just found out the wind boxes Pits standard orbitars make it so he can't reflect Pac-Man's fruit outside of the Galaxian, the Bell and maybe the Melon at a distance. At point blank they will still hit Pac-Man, but most of them will just bounce uselessly on the ground if reflected from a distance, though the Melon just flies almost straight up, and so will the Bell if you reflect it as its descending. Amplifying Orbitars reflect it all fine of course, as theres no wind box.

How about the key? Probably the only one worth reflecting since they're all easy to grab anyway.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

The Key just falls to the ground, and bounces a bit, dejected, like most of the fruit. It is still reflected, as it'll hit Pac-man when reflected at point blank, but it just wont travel very far.

 

[CHOMPY]

Theres no point to reflecting the orbitars against most characters, due to how much ending lag there is. Your opponent would be pretty smart to not fall for the same trick. It may work the first time around, but trying to reflect the projectiles the second time can only get you so far. The move is situational, and the only moves its really good at reflecting are moves like only travel horizontally at far distances, such as auras sphere, Mega Mans fsmash, Greninjas water shuriken, Villagers gyroids/slingshots/tree, and Robins thorons.

The only time I use the guardian orbitars, besides refecting projectiles is when my opponent is aggressive enough to hit you as your trying to get on stage, since the ending lag makes no difference as your falling.

One thing I'm wandering is if its possible to hit the Rob's gyro thats on the ground with the guardian orbitars, and be able to pick it up as it it were your own?

 

[Claxus]

Not too sure how it works reflecting it on the ground... But you can always pick it up regardless. The hitbox is really weird though, it's easier to pick up with a dash attack.

 

[LancerStaff]

Reflecting grounded objects is kinda funky. Mechakoopas walk though the shields (and you) without being reflected when you're on the ground. They'll get reflected more often if you do a SH before. Might apply to the gyro, might not.

Fallen peels can't be reflected at all if you're curious.

But yeah, I'll agree that the GOs are namely for charged shots and defending yourself in the air. But one thing I've been seeing is that characters with bad grabs (Mac, Ganondorf (not his Sspecial) and even Fox a bit) is that the timing for grabbing Pit with the GOs out is fairly strict. So you could just SH GO yourself off the ledge against certain characters safely. Then you can just Uspecial up a stage with a decent enough slant, safe for the most part with these characters, and do what you want from there. Not sure how useful this'll be in practice, but it's something to consider.

 

[PadWarrior]

Any good vids of Wii U Pit play?

 

[ReRaze]

Any good vids of Wii U Pit play?

Jtails just did his pit/dark pit for glory video and he's really good for someone who doesn't main pit

 

[Fangblade]

Howdy, we're discussing the TL vs. Pit match-up over at Toon Link boards this week and also the following. If you feel like adding your 2 cents and contributing to the discussion please do. You can include w/e in your post but don't forget to add a MU ratio!

Here's the link for your convenience:
http://smashboards.com/threads/toon...eek-3-falcon-charizard-dark-pit-diddy.378737/

 

[Vayseth]

Is there a list of differences between the Pits? I haven't seen anything concise after skimming both forums.

 

[Fangblade]

Is there a list of differences between the Pits? I haven't seen anything concise after skimming both forums.

This question is perfect for the Q&A threads!

Here's where I found them: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-real-differences-between-pit-and-dark-pit.373239/

 

[FiXalaS]

If Pit ever needed a buff, it's to reduce the ending lag of GO, oh and actually reflecting ness' PK Thunder 2

It's supposed to be a shield! I want to use it without having to fear something will hit me when shielded, or I'd just use the normal shield..

 

[ShadowSlashX]

Any good vids of Wii U Pit play?

I saw some vids by VGBootcamp with Pink Fresh as Pit. Also saw a couple of vids with Nairo as Dark Pit.

 

[CHOMPY]

Last night, I fought a player online who's really good with Little Mac/Luigi. I admit, my play style is overly aggressive to the point that I fall right into their traps easily, and I generally have trouble dealing with patient players that know how to zone in and out really well. It feels like I hit a brick wall and I couldn't get anywhere against those characters... No matter what I do, I can't hit them, nor dodge their moves. Maybe it has something to do with input lag that prevented me from being able to punish their laggy moves, as well as being to dodge moves effectively, such as putting up my shield and airdodging immediately. But still, it' very frustrating. However, his DK and Link I had no problems with, but Little Mac and Luigi are a different story...

Do you have any suggestions on how to deal with characters, like Luigi and Little Mac that get in your face?

 

[Claxus]

Luigi may be troublesome because he has such a deceptive aerial game with a lot of control, where Pit likes to be. I think it's better if you play a more grounded game. Luigi is totally outclassed in range there, with sluggish attacks and no real approach. And shutting down aerial approaches is strong in this game.

Little Mac I also find very tough... I usually have some luck using a lot of rising D-airs, and using D-tilt to punish. Just be careful because he's beast at punishing landings. You have to play cautious with footsies, then go offensive once he's in the air... And try to predict their counters as that nets a big advantage for you. Once he's off stage all you need is one good arrow and he's done...

I'm also a relatively offensive player. It's not easy, but sometimes you just have to slow down and change your mindset in some matchups.

 

[FiXalaS]

Last night, I fought a player online who's really good with Little Mac/Luigi. I admit, my play style is overly aggressive to the point that I fall right into their traps easily, and I generally have trouble dealing with patient players that know how to zone in and out really well. It feels like I hit a brick wall and I couldn't get anywhere against those characters... No matter what I do, I can't hit them, nor dodge their moves. Maybe it has something to do with input lag that prevented me from being able to punish their laggy moves, as well as being to dodge moves effectively, such as putting up my shield and airdodging immediately. But still, it' very frustrating. However, his DK and Link I had no problems with, but Little Mac and Luigi are a different story...

Do you have any suggestions on how to deal with characters, like Luigi and Little Mac that get in your face?

for Mac, just go the edge, shoot arrows 'till he comes to you, grab and throw him out of stage then one FAir probably will kill him, Mac may try to come on stage immediately so you may have to be prepared and use NAir fast.

be sure not to fight him alot on stage so he doesn't get his KO move, LilMac is one of the easiest Matchups for me, Pit is perfect at edgeguarding.

if he was a really really good Little Mac, counterpick with Dark Pit, Dark Pit makes this even easier as you can rely on Electroshock arm (super armor is so good) to send him away without much trouble, just time it correctly, preferably when you tries to hit you.

I usually don't lose stocks against Macs, sometimes I lose one, but Pit can destroy them.

 

[LancerStaff]

Messing around with C-Sticks and arrows today...

Attack/tilt stick barely moves it at all. Like, pixels. This wouldn't be so bad if you could tap rapidly to keep redirecting it, but tapping too fast just makes it stop reading imputs... Probably my favorite option overall because of easy jumping Uairs and smooth nairs.

Smash stick is actually very good for arrows, but not much else. One tap redirects the arrow at an angle similar to holding a diagonal in Brawl, and more taps redirects it further. Sounds fun to mess around with, but I'm not giving up my aerials...

B stick works similarly to smash stick, but lacks rapid taps to redirect further.

And the rest don't imput directions.

 

[TheBurningBadger]

What's your opinions on Pit?

 

[ReRaze]

Heres my opinion. He's mid high at best. He does some things well but there is always someone who does it better e.g gimping (mario), super armour usage (lmac). camping (villager lucario) spacing (shulk, marth, lucario), recovery (lucario), aerial combat (lucina, robin, rosalina), and lets face it pit actually kills pretty late compared to the rest of the cast and he doesn't have much to make up for it (e.g Sheiks speed and ability to rack up damage). He's balanced, not too offensive and not too defensive and he has no specific playstyle nor any he's good at for that matter he just does what he does. There's nothing special or significant about him that makes him better than the other characters but at the same time there isnt much if not nothing bad about him either.

 

[FiXalaS]

He has everything but doesn't excel at anything.

^ That's Pit. Midtier.

Maybe high-mid because his air game of ranged attacks is awesome!

 

[ChaoticRoy]

As Xacer and Fixalas said. Pit is for almost everything a Jack of all trades but a master of none (Even more than Mario in my opinion). However I do believe there is something he excels at that almost always get overlooked and is the reason that I believe he is way better than Pittoo. And that thing is "presence".

Let me explain, with almost all characters there is a "Safe Zone", a zone where both character are just too far away to damage or harass each other in any way. This zone is mostly notable when people get launched at Mid-High percent. The person launched now have a chance to think how to recover and the aggressor is waiting for that person to get back to a range when he can do something again. Thanks to Palutena's Arrow people fighting Pit don't get that Zone. It gives Pit a kind of Omnipresence where he can harass you from anywhere in the stage and it doesn't matter where you are either and people can never have a truly moment to rest. (As long as you have proper aim lol).

For example, Let's say you send an opponent at high percent up with an Up-tilt out of shield. He gets launched really far but not enough to kill him. Most characters have to wait for the opponent to descent enough to start doing something relevant. But Pit can inmidiatly charge an arrow and Aim up to keep the pressure/presence going. At this point the opponent does not only have to thing on how to land but on how to dodge the arrow too and also how to dodge it without making the landing punishable or get hit by the arrow give you free damage and kinda risking to get in a worst position.

And that's the thing that I believe Pit excels that any other character can compare. Yeah, Palutena's arrow is not the most spamable projectile, it's by no means a camping options and doesn't do much damage or knockback. But makes you able to harass anything anywhere and using this ability smartly you can really mess a lot of things your opponent do.

Anyway, I believe Pit can be at the bottom of the high Tier at best. Like the A- of the A tier just barely below the B+. Thanks to the versatility that being a Jack of all trades gives you and the fact that you have a kind of omnipresence.

 

[Jsteel3]

Honestly I feel that pit is unrepresented in competitive play. He has many and I mean many tools that can allow him to stack up against the best of smash.
This thread I want to be committed to exploring everything about Pit: matchups, stage advantages, tech, videos, and opinions on what should be explored upon.