Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[GP2]

Two points growth ain't a lot... On a typical Smash attack adding one means it kills like 7% faster. The angle change is huge because before it aimed up into a corner. Now it's aimed straight at the blastzone. Of course it should kill much later in a bad position since it no longer really launches off the top, but I don't think it's relevant.

The arrow speed buff... Wasn't that proven to not actually be a thing?

nope it's a thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QawNY4tup4M

 

[Dusk Pit]

Two points growth ain't a lot... On a typical Smash attack adding one means it kills like 7% faster. The angle change is huge because before it aimed up into a corner. Now it's aimed straight at the blastzone. Of course it should kill much later in a bad position since it no longer really launches off the top, but I don't think it's relevant.

The arrow speed buff... Wasn't that proven to not actually be a thing?

If the angle change was that big of a deal then simply by DI ing up would mean that I could live longer than pre patch with no DI, correct? That's just seems to not be the case as it still kills earlier with max DI up. There definitely is something we have missed. How can it still kill earlier if by DI ing up, the angle can be made even worse than it was before the patch with no DI?

And the arrow speed buff is definitely a thing as you can see from the video above.

 

[ReRaze]

Hmmm i thought the boards were dead but turns out Smashboards just didnt want to notify me about anything. anywho...

Hey guys I've been trying to master the footstool combo in xacer's video. I've been able to do it pretty consistently as long as the opponent does not di. However once the opponent di's the footstool I don't know what to do. Any tips?

This is so much easier to do if you use a c stick for your aerials then you can follow your opponents DI without losing any momentum.

 

[LancerStaff]

If the angle change was that big of a deal then simply by DI ing up would mean that I could live longer than pre patch with no DI, correct? That's just seems to not be the case as it still kills earlier with max DI up. There definitely is something we have missed. How can it still kill earlier if by DI ing up, the angle can be made even worse than it was before the patch with no DI?

And the arrow speed buff is definitely a thing as you can see from the video above.

DI'ing up typically increases knockback because of vectoring instead of redirecting it. Even prepatch there was some room to survive longer already... Don't think it's possible to DI it back to where it was.

Also, don't compare Wii U and 3DS numbers. 3DS has much larger blastzones.

 

[Dusk Pit]

DI'ing up typically increases knockback because of vectoring instead of redirecting it. Even prepatch there was some room to survive longer already... Don't think it's possible to DI it back to where it was.

Also, don't compare Wii U and 3DS numbers. 3DS has much larger blastzones.

Well, what I also did was a slight DI in to make it more believable, still kills earlier. Why don't you go test it and see for yourself...

 

[LancerStaff]

I've messed around with it before... Currently the best way to DI it is to hold straight left or right, whichever is in towards the stage. Pre patch on some characters and positioning it would of been better to DI away from the stage, although I can't remember who.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

Read that folks. Good stuff in there. Trust

 

[LancerStaff]

Well, our potential kill confirm off of Dthrow still looks like a dud. The sad thing is that the combo counter will count it when you can just airdodge out. I mean, it miiiight work if Dthrow is completely stale, but the chances of that happening are slim. I'll look closer next chance I get.

Fthrow > Usmash and Uthrow > Uair combo at really low percents thought, and they do 23 and 21 percent respectively. Fthrow > Usmash is hard to time and requires you to trigger a Usmash with the grab button to prevent charge frames, though. Uthrow > Uair is easy and you can probably follow-up further.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Well, our potential kill confirm off of Dthrow still looks like a dud. The sad thing is that the combo counter will count it when you can just airdodge out. I mean, it miiiight work if Dthrow is completely stale, but the chances of that happening are slim. I'll look closer next chance I get.

Fthrow > Usmash and Uthrow > Uair combo at really low percents thought, and they do 23 and 21 percent respectively. Fthrow > Usmash is hard to time and requires you to trigger a Usmash with the grab button to prevent charge frames, though. Uthrow > Uair is easy and you can probably follow-up further.

I've tried out Up-throw to Up-air a few months ago, Pretty sure it can't true combo.

 

[LancerStaff]

I've tried out Up-throw to Up-air a few months ago, Pretty sure it can't true combo.

I even had my friend test it and spam airdodge and it worked...

Like I said, only at super low percents. Like less then 10%.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

I even had my friend test it and spam airdodge and it worked...

Like I said, only at super low percents. Like less then 10%.

Hmm, Looks like that's another thing on my to-do list of labbing with Next weekend.

 

[CHOMPY]

Not a whole lot of players would expect it. I mean we have now 6 different ways of mixing up our throws.

1. Bthrow > dash attack
2. Dthrow > Usmash (most basic)
3. Dthrow > Dair > Nair
4. Dthrow > RAR Bair
5. Uthrow > Uair (at low percentage)
6. Dthrow > Uair/Fair

 

[MKchouy]

Down throw-dair-footstool- jab lock is still a thing at early percents for some characters too. Really underrated option considering if you mess it up halfway though, you still get almost the same damage as the generic BnB combos.

Plus you feel pro when you do it

 

[CHOMPY]

Are you referring to Dark Pit and Pit that can jab lock? What characters have you tested this on and what percentage?

 

[MKchouy]

Yes, the 64-84% footstool combo. Haven't tested it it on all characters yet, I know it works on villager, ness, Ike and Link. Then there are ones that it's extremely close like Lucina and Marth, doing it in the ditto with another pit/dpit works a lot too. Other characters that are heavier like Roy you need around 10% or so to plop them right under you for the footstool.

Or you could go with F throw-->(bank on missed tech) dair lock and go from there. I just think when it comes to tourneys where there is no lag and most people tech, down throw- dair- footstool will be more reliable in the long run.

 

[ReRaze]

Yes, the 64-84% footstool combo. Haven't tested it it on all characters yet, I know it works on villager, ness, Ike and Link. Then there are ones that it's extremely close like Lucina and Marth, doing it in the ditto with another pit/dpit works a lot too. Other characters that are heavier like Roy you need around 10% or so to plop them right under you for the footstool.

Or you could go with F throw-->(bank on missed tech) dair lock and go from there. I just think when it comes to tourneys where there is no lag and most people tech, down throw- dair- footstool will be more reliable in the long run.

Agree with everything you said except for banking on a missed tech part since dairs hitbox lasts long enough to cover all tech options if you space and time it right, and when the dair hits and autocancels you can followup unless you hit with the sweetspot lol.

 

[useredsa]

Agree with everything you said except for banking on a missed tech part since dairs hitbox lasts long enough to cover all tech options if you space and time it right, and when the dair hits and autocancels you can followup unless you hit with the sweetspot lol.

Really? Both rolls?

 

[MKchouy]

True I forgot, I remember one of your video's Xacer where the dair covered tech if you autocancel?

I definitely didn't mean that f throw dair wasn't a solid option, I think just certain situations call for certain mixups

 

[ReRaze]

Really? Both rolls?

Yup even the nirmal getup

True I forgot, I remember one of your video's Xacer where the dair covered tech if you autocancel?

I definitely didn't mean that f throw dair wasn't a solid option, I think just certain situations call for certain mixups

I think fthrow dair would work best on the fast falling characters (its also harder for them to tech), the dair footstool combo isn't possible on fast falling characters :/. On floaties and midweights i think the footstool lock is a much better option for obvious reasons.

 

[MKchouy]

Yup even the nirmal getup


I think fthrow dair would work best on the fast falling characters (its also harder for them to tech), the dair footstool combo isn't possible on fast falling characters :/. On floaties and midweights i think the footstool lock is a much better option for obvious reasons.

Definitely agree on f throw dair for the heavies/fast fallers.

I haven't gotten it to work yet, but iirc doesn't the last part (4% part) of fair jab lock as well? If they DI out then we'd be able to catch them with FF fair but I haven't gotten it to lock yet.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

I've been curious about something, is tipper B-air safe on shield? How much damage does tipper b-air do to shield?

 

[LancerStaff]

I've been curious about something, is tipper B-air safe on shield? How much damage does tipper b-air do to shield?

In raw frame data, no, I don't think it is. It may be safe against certain characters... Just not fast enough. Does 12% out of the 42% required to kill a shield.

Damage converts to shield damage in a 1-to-1 radio in this game, and then there's shield damage modifiers on top of that on certain moves. Only move on Pit and Dark Pit that does extra shield damage is the Arms as far as I can tell, an extra 10 if you're curious.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

In raw frame data, no, I don't think it is. It may be safe against certain characters... Just not fast enough. Does 12% out of the 42% required to kill a shield.

Damage converts to shield damage in a 1-to-1 radio in this game, and then there's shield damage modifiers on top of that on certain moves. Only move on Pit and Dark Pit that does extra shield damage is the Arms as far as I can tell, an extra 10 if you're curious.

Ah, I see. I've been able to get away with b-air on shield a few times. But I can tell it's not safe, at least for the most part, like f-air. It's still a really good move, just not the best option in neutral.

 

[LancerStaff]

Ah, I see. I've been able to get away with b-air on shield a few times. But I can tell it's not safe, at least for the most part, like f-air. It's still a really good move, just not the best option in neutral.

I mean, it'll work a lot of the time because people are expecting Fair. Fair's last hit is on f19, whereas Bair hits on f10-12. (Also tested it and found that you can get the tipper on any of the three frames, which is nice.) Since the autocancel is the same, f28, it just comes down to Fair hitting later.

 

[GP2]

So lately I've been having trouble getting the first footstool in the dair lock combo now that I've moved from using it on computers to actual opponents. Most opponents I face end up footstooling me instead. Does this mean that I'm not pressing jump fast enough?



Also has anyone seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtvBaMUt8hk

 

[LancerStaff]

So lately I've been having trouble getting the first footstool in the dair lock combo now that I've moved from using it on computers to actual opponents. Most opponents I face end up footstooling me instead. Does this mean that I'm not pressing jump fast enough?



Also has anyone seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtvBaMUt8hk

Kinda a failure at footstool stuff myself so ¯\_('_')_/¯

The slopedashing thing's been known, yeah. Handy GTFO option in some situations (you dash on f2 or something so yeah) but the fact you're hit with the lag from the Arm the entire duration means there's zero offensive potential. It'd of been patched anyway if it did so whatever...

 

[ReRaze]

So lately I've been having trouble getting the first footstool in the dair lock combo now that I've moved from using it on computers to actual opponents. Most opponents I face end up footstooling me instead. Does this mean that I'm not pressing jump fast enough?



Also has anyone seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtvBaMUt8hk

Maybe you are hitting with the weaker part of dair which has less hitstun, make sure you are hitting with the part closest to the sweetspot, the outer hitbox can be used at later percents. Although at really low percents like 0-10% I find that opponents can sometimes get out too, depending on char.

 

[LancerStaff]

So I was poking around reddit earlier and found this:
https://gfycat.com/OnlyCalculatingGoitered

Basically a hilldash with Electroshock, minus the hill... And the endlag, apparently.

Not going to test right now since it's late but if anybody wants to try figuring it out, go ahead. Actually if you guys could examine it closer that'd help a lot because my browser doesn't agree with me rewinding the gif...

 

[ReRaze]

So I was poking around reddit earlier and found this:
https://gfycat.com/OnlyCalculatingGoitered

Basically a hilldash with Electroshock, minus the hill... And the endlag, apparently.

Not going to test right now since it's late but if anybody wants to try figuring it out, go ahead. Actually if you guys could examine it closer that'd help a lot because my browser doesn't agree with me rewinding the gif...

My theory is that it works similiarly to the slope dash with the ledge where your arm pulls back to higher ground? so he kinda ran offstage and spaced it perfectly so that when his arm pulled back it cancelled on the ledge, either that or the edge of the ledge of Town and city has a really small slope? Ima test it later, nice find!

 

[GP2]

Hey guys you should all check out this guy on youtube. He knows a lot about Pit/Dark Pit and I used his guide on the characters to learn most of the combos I use today. Recently he made a video on Pit's jablock/footstool setups. Looks like you can set up the dair lock combo with up air as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmxZuZlEQ80

 

[ReRaze]

Hey guys you should all check out this guy on youtube. He knows a lot about Pit/Dark Pit and I used his guide on the characters to learn most of the combos I use today. Recently he made a video on Pit's jablock/footstool setups. Looks like you can set up the dair lock combo with up air as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmxZuZlEQ80

You will almost never land a falling uair in game tbh, it's too unsafe and uair to footstool is not guaranteed at all in the first place.
But yeah kibzu has some good content.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

You can also get a falling U-air to Upsmash, not sure if it's guaranteed or not. Falling U-air has the same amount of knockback no matter what percent, but that said, you also have to land a falling U-air without getting punished. Which I've never done before.

 

[ReRaze]

You can also get a falling U-air to Upsmash, not sure if it's guaranteed or not. Falling U-air has the same amount of knockback no matter what percent, but that said, you also have to land a falling U-air without getting punished. Which I've never done before.

Falling uair to usmash is a true combo.

Also regarding the wavedash thing.

This was the moment just before he side b'd......

 

[GP2]

You will almost never land a falling uair in game tbh, it's too unsafe and uair to footstool is not guaranteed at all in the first place.
But yeah kibzu has some good content.

We can get falling up air at low to mid percent off of a down throw, usually <65% if the opponent has good di. I normally start using it after down throw to short hop fair stops working. It could be a good kill set up if you can get the footstool and you're near the edge. I'll have to test it out to see how viable it can be.

 

[LancerStaff]

Falling uair to usmash is a true combo.

Also regarding the wavedash thing.
This was the moment just before he side b'd......

So he just ran off and used Electroshock. Or at least got close to running off...

Ooooohh. Got an idea. There's this thing where you can't run off the ledge if you're not pressing forwards far enough. If we side B right there and it works, we have an easy way to do the super wavedash. If not... Probably won't be useful enough because if you mess it up then you lose a lot of space and put yourself in a terrible position.

 

[ReRaze]

So he just ran off and used Electroshock. Or at least got close to running off...

Ooooohh. Got an idea. There's this thing where you can't run off the ledge if you're not pressing forwards far enough. If we side B right there and it works, we have an easy way to do the super wavedash. If not... Probably won't be useful enough because if you mess it up then you lose a lot of space and put yourself in a terrible position.

It didn't look like he was doing the slow run, either way I think my second theory were the edge of the ledge on town and city is angled is right. If you look closely you can see a really small slope buuuuut it seems really iffy so im not sure, I don't even have my wii u with me to check properly. It works on the pictochat stage but timing is easier because larger slope.

 

[Koiba]

Wait, so would that mean technically Town and City has a tiny slope at the edge? You do need a slope for this, right?


And the angel went hella far too. Almost half the stage.


Dunno if it's pratical tho. What do you guys think?

 

[ReRaze]

Wait, so would that mean technically Town and City has a tiny slope at the edge? You do need a slope for this, right?


And the angel went hella far too. Almost half the stage.


Dunno if it's pratical tho. What do you guys think?

That's the assumption im making right now lol that town and city has a tiny slope at the ledge.

Haha it is very practical imo, get in, get out, extend combos, etc. edit: Oh but how practical it is in terms of how precise it might be to use is a different story

 

[Koiba]

That's the assumption im making right now lol that town and city has a tiny slope at the ledge.

Haha it is very practical imo, get in, get out, extend combos, etc. edit: Oh but how practical it is in terms of how precise it might be to use is a different story

I'll be willing to try and test out some of the stages~


Maybe some omega's have some sort of secret slant lol

 

[ReRaze]

Sooooo do you think it's a timing thing or is this due to the jagged mini slopes (which don't actually seem to be slopes when I walk across them) in the middle of the stage? or Maybe it was duck hunt dog's esrs that created a slope?

edit: Yeah I think it was the dog, the head, it gives a similiar cancel animation when you do it on his head maybe if you timed it just as his head popped out it follows onto the ground