Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[LancerStaff]

They are exactly the same besides the side special (Pit's sends opponents straight up, and Dark Pit's sends them at roughly a 45 degree angle) and neutral special, although the neutral special is debatable because they each have a controllable arrows custom that seems to be the best option.

Even the custom arrows are different. Pit's are easier to control and DP's are faster. Me, I really think the small arrows are major overkill for control for Pit, but DP could definitely use them since his basically fly straight.

 

[Clemente]

I'm actually finding it ridiculously hard to get kills when I'm fighting particular characters. I played a roll+counter spam Lucina and was able to get a ton of damage in, but could only at least take one stock off before I lost. She was getting kills at 89-120 and I couldn't get a kill in until at least 125+ or something like that. Very frustrating. I'm wondering who's actually better at kills - Pit or Dark Pit?

I'm pretty sure I prefer Pit's playstyle and I don't think I want to give up the extra knockback and controllable arrows though. Any thoughts/advice?

Same issue, but this is just a case of plain bad balancing IMO. Lucina/Marth are fast and do tons of damage (or it feels that way when I face them/use Marth, maybe because they have more hits/tons better hitboxes despite shorter looking weapons and animations than Pit..), Pit is fast but horrible hitboxes and horrible damage.

I dunno how you guys are doing it, would love some links to good videos. Still want to main Pit so bad but switched to some other characters like Ness and Dedede and my win rate went from like 50% to 60% and I have 450+ matches now in For Glory.

I think someone mentioned spamming F-airs when I can, and I guess it's somewhat better than his other air moves, but its damage is crappy like everything else and it's dangerous like everything else. It's really funny that his neutral air actually does 0% sometimes, I guess with just one chip? His down air seems to spike so little that even when I hit people they have enough time to punish me, it's sad. And as for the hitboxes on this stuff you can stand next to your training CPU and stand right next to it and still miss if a tiny bit too high, and these are big helicopter spins.

Even when I'm doing well with Pit, I'll get in tons of hits in and still unable to kill them with much of anything and I'm flying all over the stage like a ragdoll at 50% or something.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I think for now I'll just have to tough it out, and not give up so quickly on my characters. Thanks for putting the chart there, Jaxas, that was actually really useful. You can always watch the Replay Channel for videos on Pit fighters, but you don't know if they'll be really good or if they'll get stomped. This whole "rack up a lot of damage but then get killed at 85 by a strong character" seems to be a trend online. I'll see a lot of good Pits with combos, air game and good reaction time, but a lot of them get bopped when they're at 85%+ while their opponent could be at 130%+.

I'll mess around with my playstyle and try new things. I'll make sure to let you guys know if I've found any good techniques or combos

 

[Clemente]

I'm not giving up on him either, I just tried out some other stuff briefly. Since I've been getting hyped with Pit in mind for at least a year+ and playing KI:U nonstop to get hyped, etc., it would seem weird to give up now! Just ranting inappropriately... I haven't checked out that replay channel thing so that's something I need to do.

On Twitch or these Tournament YouTube channels where pros play, there is NO Pits, so I've been pretty unsuccessful at finding someone I can just watch play and hopefully learn something.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

I'm not giving up on him either, I just tried out some other stuff briefly. Since I've been getting hyped with Pit in mind for at least a year+ and playing KI:U nonstop to get hyped, etc., it would seem weird to give up now! Just ranting inappropriately... I haven't checked out that replay channel thing so that's something I need to do.

On Twitch or these Tournament YouTube channels where pros play, there is NO Pits, so I've been pretty unsuccessful at finding someone I can just watch play and hopefully learn something.

Haha I'm with you on the rant too. Yup the Replay Channel can be pretty useful; it really makes you see what you could be doing, but aren't. I'd say just watching any good smash people play will help you, as long as you understand what they're doing and why. It'll all work out in the end, sure hasn't it always

 

[Neo Zero]

http://smashboards.com/threads/ange...ark-pit-match-up-directory-and-voting.369086/

Match up voting has begun for Pit/DP. Remember, this thread is NOT for MU discussion. Simply vote for 3 character MUs you want to see discussed, and eventually those 3 will have threads made for the actual MU discussion to happen.

 

[Coffee™]

http://smashboards.com/threads/ange...ark-pit-match-up-directory-and-voting.369086/

Match up voting has begun for Pit/DP. Remember, this thread is NOT for MU discussion. Simply vote for 3 character MUs you want to see discussed, and eventually those 3 will have threads made for the actual MU discussion to happen.

Gonna say it now, it's annoying having to come to a separate forum to participate in threads like this that pertain to both characters. These forums need to be merged for the sake of further and faster character development. There is literally no reason to separate them.

Their minute differences can just as easily be discussed under one forum.

 

[Neo Zero]

Gonna say it now, it's annoying having to come to a separate board to participate in threads like this that pertain to both characters. These boards need to be merged for the sake of further and faster character development. There is literally no reason to separate them.

Their minute differences can just as easily be discussed under one board.

Tbh, I want the forums just merged too lol. I can try bringing it up to the head honchos, but who knows how well that'll go

 

[Coffee™]

Tbh, I want the forums just merged too lol. I can try bringing it up to the head honchos, but who knows how well that'll go

Yeah I'd definitely bring it up. I can't see any reason to really oppose it.

 

[Jabberwockxeno]

What are the exact differences between pit and dark pit? Dark pit hits a little harder, and moves a little slower, and his neutral and side specials are different...

but is there anything else? I think his recovery might be a little worse, both in terms of jump height and his up special.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

What are the exact differences between pit and dark pit? Dark pit hits a little harder, and moves a little slower, and his neutral and side specials are different...

but is there anything else? I think his recovery might be a little worse, both in terms of jump height and his up special.

If you go near the end of the previous page, Jaxas gave us a spoilered list of damage differences They're very very similar characters.

 

[Jabberwockxeno]

If you go near the end of the previous page, Jaxas gave us a spoilered list of damage differences They're very very similar characters.

Just a heads up, that doesn't appear to be true at this point - back on page 6 @Katakiri posted this info:
[spoiler="Pit and Dark Pit Character Data (by Katakiri)]

[/spoiler]

----- Edit -----
'd

Huh, really, no movement speed differences? DP feels slighty more sluggish, at least.

Anyways, another thing I don't get it the down special. Is it purely a projectile reflector, does it do damage on contact, does it block non projectile attacks? It seems like every time I use it it does something different.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

Huh, really, no movement speed differences? DP feels slighty more sluggish, at least.

Anyways, another thing I don't get it the down special. Is it purely a projectile reflector, does it do damage on contact, does it block non projectile attacks? It seems like every time I use it it does something different.

It's mainly used for repelling projectiles. Very useful against Duck Hunt Duo, Wii Fit Trainer, Megaman etc. It also blocks attacks, but you can be grabbed out of it. I also like to use it when my opponent is attempting to combo me in the air; it really throws them off. Its ending animation takes a while, so be careful of being punished.

 

[Jaxas]

If you go near the end of the previous page, Jaxas gave us a spoilered list of damage differences They're very very similar characters.

It was actually @Katakiri who found it, I just reposted it from page 6.

Anyways, I feel like I'm doing something wrong but are Dark/Pit just plain really bad at killing? Also, a lot of their moves look safe (like Fair at max range) but I don't think they actually are; am I just spacing wrong?

Thanks!

 

[SwoodGrommet]

It was actually @Katakiri who found it, I just reposted it from page 6.

Anyways, I feel like I'm doing something wrong but are Dark/Pit just plain really bad at killing? Also, a lot of their moves look safe (like Fair at max range) but I don't think they actually are; am I just spacing wrong?

Thanks!

Yes, they are bad at killing and it's giving me a headache I'm having troubles with my air game; my opponent always seems to have priority over me. I don't want to main anyone else, but there seems to be a lot of things I need to get used to with Pit. My W:L ratio is terrible, I hope I'll be able to get better in time.

 

[Dragoomba]

Tbh, I want the forums just merged too lol. I can try bringing it up to the head honchos, but who knows how well that'll go

Agree. Dark Pit is pretty much the least defining clone in Smash history. It would be pointless to separate boards from each other based on what is ultimately a glorified palette swap.

 

[SirKibble]

As far as differences between them go, I know we've settled on some in the NSpec and FSpec, but is there nothing in the other specials?

I feel like I can hit a more extreme horizontal angle with Dark's POF, but that may just be luck and me still having some trouble shifting the circle pad quickly enough. DSpec seems 100% the same.

 

[New_Dumal]

How do you guys fight Little Macs? They just send me flying on Pit. It's really unbelievable. I can semi-fight Little Macs on Ness, but with Pit it's like I'm out played in every attack

I know I'm late, but I got some real experience with L.Mac to add.
L.Mac is one of the few characters that is really possible to gimp in this game.But is easier just edge-guard.
When you lauch/throw a L.Mac off the stage, look at their distance from the ledge
.
--> If he is above the ledge and close, try to do a Nair just to get some distance and goes yourself to the ledge, or if you read he will (I don't know why") use his SideB, punish hard his landing lag.

-->Now if L.Mac is a bit above the stage and and a medium distance from the ledge,you will play some rock-paper-scissors.
If you hit them before they uses his SideB, you will probably kill him (Fair or a spaced Bair).If not, you will take damage, be cautious at high %.

If you read he will use his SideB fast and directly to above the plataform, you can shield+punish, or even just uses your SideB to punish his SideB, if you catch the move at the end.Again, if you go for the option above and he try this, you will be punished.

If L.Mac looks to be a try hard, and would fast fall to Up+B in this situation, you can almost always land a Dair in him (even if you mess with this, L.Mac Uppercut is not a kill move until very high %) and finish his stock.

--> If he is average up the ledge and very far, and their SideB is his last hope, you can end with his hope with a very timed DownB(Guardian Orbitars). Here the mission is not reflet the move to the other direction, but stoping his momentum. Pit/Dark Pit DownB is a very usefull edge guard in this game.

-->Under/Same height of the ledge is always time to try a Dair. In this game Bair is slower and hard to hit, so the old stage-spike is not a option now.

--> If he is too up and too far, you can try to arrow him if you're close to the ledge or just goes to the ledge and wait to be at one of the options above.

Play at one step from the edge, always. This will cause them to go insane, if he starts to dash attack, it's over.
You can say it's dangerous to survive at one step from the edge, but it's much more dangerous for them. If you can't gimp or edge guard, build some damage with grab->follow-ups, use his arrows if he is the other side of the stage fearing your position, and finish with your Side+B.

---------------------------
No longer about this MU now, I'm really liking to use the Upperdash Arm while running away from my opponent.
It's a simple and usual mind-game. You approach a little, turn yourself to retreat, just to surprise them with the Side+B.
I think people don't usually shields when looks like you're running from them.
In the turnaround animation they drop their shield, and eventually dies. It's so beautifull.

 

[Lu-Gi-Oh!]

On another forum, I've seen someone claim that while both Pits have the same damage and knockback on their attacks, their knockback scaling is subtly different, making DP easier to combo with at lower percentages but becoming more identical with Pit at higher percentages.

To be honest, DP does feel noticeably easier to combo with to me, so I was wondering if anyone here's tested this out yet.

 

[LancerStaff]

On another forum, I've seen someone claim that while both Pits have the same damage and knockback on their attacks, their knockback scaling is subtly different, making DP easier to combo with at lower percentages but becoming more identical with Pit at higher percentages.

To be honest, DP does feel noticeably easier to combo with to me, so I was wondering if anyone here's tested this out yet.

Their KO %s are exactly the same on 99% of the moves. Different knockback scaling would rather likely change that.

 

[Cupbot]

There have been more post over which custom move is better over actual Pit discussion.

A few things I've learned with playing Pit/Dark Pit

-Down Throw -> Dash Upsmash Seems to be a guaranteed combo until 30%. Doesn't work on Jiggs or Megaman

- Your Recovery WILL NOT grab the ledge on it's start up frames, leaving you to overshoot and getting punished for it. If you wanna recover you have to do it deep. Which could be an issue because people who know this will try to gimp you over and over.

- Side B is great for punishing rolls in lag

So far there is no reason to play Dark Pit over Pit because of how good Pit's arrows can gimp. Neither can kill so you have to take advantage of your lame arrows.

 

[LancerStaff]

There have been more post over which custom move is better over actual Pit discussion.

A few things I've learned with playing Pit/Dark Pit

-Down Throw -> Dash Upsmash Seems to be a guaranteed combo until 30%. Doesn't work on Jiggs or Megaman

- Your Recovery WILL NOT grab the ledge on it's start up frames, leaving you to overshoot and getting punished for it. If you wanna recover you have to do it deep. Which could be an issue because people who know this will try to gimp you over and over.

- Side B is great for punishing rolls in lag

So far there is no reason to play Dark Pit over Pit because of how good Pit's arrows can gimp. Neither can kill so you have to take advantage of your lame arrows.

Aim low if you're too close to the edge, you'll slide up and snap. Even funky stages like Ferox work.

 

[Deleted member]

There have been more post over which custom move is better over actual Pit discussion.

A few things I've learned with playing Pit/Dark Pit

-Down Throw -> Dash Upsmash Seems to be a guaranteed combo until 30%. Doesn't work on Jiggs or Megaman

- Your Recovery WILL NOT grab the ledge on it's start up frames, leaving you to overshoot and getting punished for it. If you wanna recover you have to do it deep. Which could be an issue because people who know this will try to gimp you over and over.

- Side B is great for punishing rolls in lag

So far there is no reason to play Dark Pit over Pit because of how good Pit's arrows can gimp. Neither can kill so you have to take advantage of your lame arrows.

Controllable arrows custom begs to differ.

 

[Dooms]

Yeah with customs they're literally the same character unless you spam side-b. :v

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah with customs they're literally the same character unless you spam side-b. :v

Their properties on their arrows carry over to the customs a bit, actually. DP's easy arrows can't turn as sharp but, er, probably have something to make up for it. But honestly, I don't think the easy arrows are useful on Pit since you can hit just about every angle anyway.

 

[Tsutori]

I find that I've been hitting people fairly reliably with down air > up smash. Pop 'em up and then follow through.

Also, can someone confirm that the Pits still have a spike on their down tilt when using it on a ledge? If so, which characters does it work on?

 

[LancerStaff]

I find that I've been hitting people fairly reliably with down air > up smash. Pop 'em up and then follow through.

Also, can someone confirm that the Pits still have a spike on their down tilt when using it on a ledge? If so, which characters does it work on?

Yaknow, I've been meaning to test this. Lemme get back to you on that.

Edit: I've tried just about everything. IDK, if it's there, it's even harder to do then it was in Brawl.

 

[CommanderVimes]

On the Ike boards someone was talking about how annoying Pit is to fight because he is very safe on nearly all his moves, especially compared to a character with mostly slowish moves like Ike. I haven't really thought about the safety of particular moves in Smash yet, as opposed to obsessing about them in other fighters, on account of things like dodging and perfect shielding.
Which of Pit's moves do you think the user was talking about, is he known for his safe approach/pokes? If so I just might have new secondary characters...

 

[LancerStaff]

On the Ike boards someone was talking about how annoying Pit is to fight because he is very safe on nearly all his moves, especially compared to a character with mostly slowish moves like Ike. I haven't really thought about the safety of particular moves in Smash yet, as opposed to obsessing about them in other fighters, on account of things like dodging and perfect shielding.
Which of Pit's moves do you think the user was talking about, is he known for his safe approach/pokes? If so I just might have new secondary characters...

His Fair is probably his safest move when properly spaced. I wouldn't call Pit an overly safe character, but I really don't know your definition of safe. He's not too big on approaching either, but he has the means to if necessary. He's more about camping with arrows and reflecting projectiles, forcing the opponent to approach.

IDK, I'm not a very good judge of these kind of things.

 

[CommanderVimes]

Don't fret Lancer that was a big help! Is it the multi-hit nature of fair that makes it pretty safe? I don't really know what I am defining as safe since I have not really thought about the concept in the Smash series yet.
So you generally keep it back and then use the nice range on his airs to react to enemy approaches? I think that will be my starting game plan.

 

[Tsutori]

Don't fret Lancer that was a big help! Is it the multi-hit nature of fair that makes it pretty safe? I don't really know what I am defining as safe since I have not really thought about the concept in the Smash series yet.
So you generally keep it back and then use the nice range on his airs to react to enemy approaches? I think that will be my starting game plan.

F-air also has pretty deceptive range, at least in my opinion, so you can do some very nice spacing with it. D-tilt is also one of my personal favorite reactions to approaches.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Another site noticed that Pittoo's FTilt has much less knockback overall than Pit's. And after running some tests, I discovered that person was completely right.

Maybe these threads should be de-merged or some more tests should be done.

EDIT; Fixed the link. That was embarrassing...

 

[Tsutori]

Another site noticed that Pittoo's FTilt has much less knockback overall than Pit's. And after running some tests, I discovered that person was completely right.

Maybe these threads should be de-merged or some more tests should be done.

EDIT; Fixed the link. That was embarrassing...

That's interesting. Not sure if that warrants enough for a de-merge, but that definitely might call for some further testing.

 

[Clemente]

I'm warming up to Pit a bit. I think this is a character that I will warm up to more and more the better I get. I'm still locked in around 60% win rate in For Glory but that's because I have so many losses. I feel myself getting better. Since your jab and dash attacks and other stuff only does a slight launch, it's a good way to bait into an up smash -> air juggling, or a f-air, and I'm getting better at baiting stuff too.

I'd like to hear some "combos" that you guys use to rack up damage, or at least attacks that you commonly use together even if they're not proper combos.

I kind of wish Pit had Dark Pit's side-B, but I think Pit will always be the viable one because of the arrows. Dark Pit's are basically uncontrollable and I sometimes have to curve my arrows on Pit up to hit a jumping target, or sometimes I like to shoot while I'm off stage since I can get a couple of arrows off and still recover if I get sent flying, and of course shooting at off stage opponents that YOU send flying, and both requires aiming.

So I definitely wouldn't give up Pit's arrows at this point for Dark Pit's side-B.At this point I see no reason why anyone would use Dark Pit.

Custom moves are banned in For Glory and will most likely be banned for tournament play, (besides maybe the crappy official Nintendo ones, which even play with stage hazards...) so I won't factor that in to what I'm saying.

 

[Clemente]

by the way, right now my biggest enemy is... lag.

Pit is like borderline unplayable in lag, we are using daggers and other characters actually benefit from lagging vs. us as far as I can tell.

There has been a lot of matches that I know I would have won if there was no lag (I understand that lag sucks for everyone, just seems to turn the odds against Pit)

 

[Deleted member]

Can anybody test out the knock back differences between Pit and Dark Pit's Down Tilt, Up Tilt, Forward Smash, Down Smash, Up Smash, and Back Aerial? I'd love to test it myself but I'm holding out for the Wii U version. I honestly doubt that Dark Pit doesn't have one advantage over Pit after seeing that Pit's Ftilt is stronger than Dark Pit's. I'm especially interested in the Down Smash and Back Aerials, since I've heard that Dark Pit's are stronger but I haven't seen confirmation.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

It would be pretty cute if Dark Pit had slightly stronger air moves than Pit, since he is more used to being in the air than Pit is. But that kind of testing is really annoying/time consuming without mods or proper capture devices. I wish Sakurai would just spit it out if theres anything at all that makes them different besides the the two specials.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'm warming up to Pit a bit. I think this is a character that I will warm up to more and more the better I get. I'm still locked in around 60% win rate in For Glory but that's because I have so many losses. I feel myself getting better. Since your jab and dash attacks and other stuff only does a slight launch, it's a good way to bait into an up smash -> air juggling, or a f-air, and I'm getting better at baiting stuff too.

I'd like to hear some "combos" that you guys use to rack up damage, or at least attacks that you commonly use together even if they're not proper combos.

I kind of wish Pit had Dark Pit's side-B, but I think Pit will always be the viable one because of the arrows. Dark Pit's are basically uncontrollable and I sometimes have to curve my arrows on Pit up to hit a jumping target, or sometimes I like to shoot while I'm off stage since I can get a couple of arrows off and still recover if I get sent flying, and of course shooting at off stage opponents that YOU send flying, and both requires aiming.

So I definitely wouldn't give up Pit's arrows at this point for Dark Pit's side-B.At this point I see no reason why anyone would use Dark Pit.

Custom moves are banned in For Glory and will most likely be banned for tournament play, (besides maybe the crappy official Nintendo ones, which even play with stage hazards...) so I won't factor that in to what I'm saying.

I don't know much about specific combos yet since Pittoo's still just an experimental secondary with me, but his arrows suit me better because instead of controlling the curve, I always preferred jumping and shooting like with most characters' projectiles to mix up the aim instead, personally.

Can anybody test out the knock back differences between Pit and Dark Pit's Down Tilt, Up Tilt, Forward Smash, Down Smash, Up Smash, and Back Aerial? I'd love to test it myself but I'm holding out for the Wii U version. I honestly doubt that Dark Pit doesn't have one advantage over Pit after seeing that Pit's Ftilt is stronger than Dark Pit's. I'm especially interested in the Down Smash and Back Aerials, since I've heard that Dark Pit's are stronger but I haven't seen confirmation.

It would be pretty cute if Dark Pit had slightly stronger air moves than Pit, since he is more used to being in the air than Pit is. But that kind of testing is really annoying/time consuming without mods or proper capture devices. I wish Sakurai would just spit it out if theres anything at all that makes them different besides the the two specials.

I'll do some more tests myself later if I feel up to it. I'm kind of tied up in stuff right this moment.

 

[Lenus Altair]

A lot of people (myself included) feel that Pit is more of a sword user ish character then ever, and plays in a similar vein to Marth now. Do you agree? Do you feel this is (drastically?) dissimilar to how he is in brawl?

 

[CommanderVimes]

I did some unofficial testing on Flat Zone 2 with the two Pits. Computers influence their movement differently in training mode, but it looks like the arcs and distances on their throws are the same. I'd like to test aerials (they all it the same and do the same damage so far), but it is hard to test precise knock back on all of them because some don't work on standing opponents (nair) and hitting them at different jump heights could slightly influence the knock back.

I also tested Fsmash in Home Run contest, they seem identical at least in KB distance.