Tyr's Lucas Player's Guide

[Tyr_03]

Like the biggest Brawl tournament ever in California this July I think.

 

[Irsic]

Was considering going to SoCal this summer, so we'll see!

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

Where/what is Genesis?

That stuff is gonna be so big that theres a freakin V.I.P section....no lie

 

[Chuee]

I feel so sad because im gonna be in some da** summer camp wile genesis is going on.

 

[Yoshi-Kirby]

I actually became a mod on a new Smashsite. I became a Guide Mod, and I had to write a guide on characters/stages. I chose Lucas first, and I just finished making it! =D

Here it is: http://smashspace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/lucas-guide

 

[c3gill]

I actually became a mod on a new Smashsite. I became a Guide Mod, and I had to write a guide on characters/stages. I chose Lucas first, and I just finished making it! =D

Here it is: http://smashspace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/lucas-guide

you should probabally repost this in a new thread or on the general thread so people can give you tips on it... just looking it over I see about 3 or 4 mistakes that can be quickly fixed... PM inc

 

[Levitas]

If you repost that kind of content, do it as a thread rather than a link to a thread in a rival site.

You're not actually supposed to link to rival websites

 

[Tyr_03]

Added character matchup against Ike. They're all over the place in the midwest.

 

[ZMan]

ike has friends in the midwest. so when he says he fights for his friends he really means he's fighting for the midwest. it shold be noted that pirate ship, yoshi island (melee), and corneria are usally banned at tournies.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol not in the midwest.

Or in the SBR recommended ruleset.

 

[akkon888]

Please be aware that Ike has a higher air priority than almost every character in the game. The best, if not only, way to thoroughly defeat him is to camp, because Ike's jab cancel in extremely effective. Also note that Ike's D-Tilt is an effective edgeguard that can be used as a spike. U-Tilt can kill Lucas at 87% I believe, and is otfen the recommended followthrough for his jab cancel. If Lucas is far away from Ike, he will have the advantage. Just don't get cocky because he is slow, even though you have the ground goods, if you are not careful, Ike can rip you apart.

 

[Levitas]

akkon, you're wrong on a number of points. Camping is not the only way to beat ike, even if you consider lucas's matchup. utilt does not kill lucas at 87%

But it's true that he does hit hard.

 

[akkon888]

akkon, you're wrong on a number of points. Camping is not the only way to beat ike, even if you consider lucas's matchup. utilt does not kill lucas at 87%

But it's true that he does hit hard.

I know that it is not exactly 87%, I said that I believed it was 87%. When you think about it, just how Tyr pointed it out himself, you have to play very defensive against Ike, and that camping works when playing defensively. I know that camping is not the only way to beat an Ike, I worded that part terribly. But, if you consider all the options, from racking damage with N-Air and F-Air to immediately becoming a relentless freak who F-Smashes anyone within 5 feet, it is pretty obvious that using your projectiles is one of the most effective ways of fighting Ike. Of course, you can throw in some N-Airs and F-Smashes and other stuff to punish the Ike, but in the end, the Lucas will need to rely heavily on his projectiles for a victory.

And heck yeah, he hits hard.

 

[lil cj]

As an Ike user myself I know this matchup.
Lucas' projectiles isnt the only thing that will insure his victory against Ike. Lucas' jab and ftilt is faster than anything Ike has including his jab(sometimes they will clash) Even though Ike has some priority in the air, doesnt mean anything their still slow and most characters can hit him with their aerials before Ike hits them with his. Lucas' dair has more priority than all of Ike's aerials and so does his uair. Lucas can also gimp Ike with PKT with ease. Camping will make the match vs Ike easy for Lucas but its not our only way to win. Lucas' ground game is excellent and he can punish just as good as Ike. I do agree that Lucas should play defensive against Ike, but shouldnt be afraid to be somewhat agressive too and take advantage of Ike's weakness.

 

[Levitas]

Really it isn't so important to hit with to many PK fires. The more important thing is that Ike is approaching, which means he can't use as many of his hard hitting or fast standing attacks such as jab.

Lucas's defensive posture is really important here.

 

[Tyr_03]

The issue with approaching Ike is that if you try to approach in the air he can space a Fair which has stupid range and priority to hit you. This will always stop full hop Dair if he spaces decently. Approaching on the ground you run the risk of running into his jabs which rack up a lot of damage if he cancels and repeats. Ike has a good defensive game and not many approaches. Lucas is therefore better served by playing a generally more defensive game. It is not all about camping with PK Fire. Ike can easily powershield PK Fires and punish if they aren't spaced just right just like pretty much any other character. But there are a lot of situations where you're going to need to take advantage of your projectiles rather than approaching, especially when Ike is ledgecamping. Ike is ridiculously good at edgecamping and you don't want to come near him when he is. Same thing when he's in the water. Just don't even bother trying to approach in those situations because you don't have to and it's very dangerous to.

Obviously, aggressive play is necesary in some situations, like when you notice a spacing error or just regular mixups. This is why I wrote defensive as the general strategy. Not the complete strategy.

What I can't stress enough is that you should not underestimate Ike. In the right hands he can be a really good character and we honestly only have a slight advantage over him in my opinion. He has some of the most broken counterpick stage choices of any character if he knows how to use them.

 

[akkon888]

As an Ike user myself I know this matchup.
Lucas' projectiles isnt the only thing that will insure his victory against Ike. Lucas' jab and ftilt is faster than anything Ike has including his jab(sometimes they will clash) Even though Ike has some priority in the air, doesnt mean anything their still slow and most characters can hit him with their aerials before Ike hits them with his. Lucas' dair has more priority than all of Ike's aerials and so does his uair. Lucas can also gimp Ike with PKT with ease. Camping will make the match vs Ike easy for Lucas but its not our only way to win. Lucas' ground game is excellent and he can punish just as good as Ike. I do agree that Lucas should play defensive against Ike, but shouldnt be afraid to be somewhat agressive too and take advantage of Ike's weakness.

Wrong. Ike's air priority is one of the highest in the game, not to mention he was extremely long range aerials. As a matter off fact, the only thing that outranges his F-Air is Samus' Z-Air. Lucas' jab is faster, by one frame. 1/60th of a second. That's like, 20 times faster than you can blink your eye. And because of his range, he can completely nullify your F-Air any day of the week. D-Air would be pretty much useless, because Ike's retreating F-Airs would over range them. Even if you went on top of him, you would only do 5-10% damage, and that comes with a risk of eating a U-Air, which has a lingering hitbox. Lucas' U-Air has absolutely no range, which is not an option whn going up against Ike's D-Air. Then, you are talking about Lucas gimping with PKT. That is effective, but it is also a projectile, and that means that you are using them. And yes, I said that camping was not the only way to win. But being aggressive is no option.

I like what Levitas said about the PK Fires. Yes, you shouldn't overuse them, but you should use them when Ike is trying to finish you off. Sorry if I sounded like I was saying to spam PKF, bad on my part.

And Tyr just explained most of what I did here. You should not simply run into the hurricane, because most players have not fought a good Ike (Kirk, Rykoshet, Azen, Ren) and underestimate the amount of range capable, as well as the Ike itself. In my mind, this should be 5-5 Neutral, but without projectiles, it is much harder to win this match.

 

[Chuee]

Wrong. Ike's air priority is one of the highest in the game, not to mention he was extremely long range aerials. As a matter off fact, the only thing that outranges his F-Air is Samus' Z-Air. Lucas' jab is faster, by one frame. 1/60th of a second. That's like, 20 times faster than you can blink your eye. And because of his range, he can completely nullify your F-Air any day of the week. D-Air would be pretty much useless, because Ike's retreating F-Airs would over range them. Even if you went on top of him, you would only do 5-10% damage, and that comes with a risk of eating a U-Air, which has a lingering hitbox. Lucas' U-Air has absolutely no range, which is not an option whn going up against Ike's D-Air. Then, you are talking about Lucas gimping with PKT. That is effective, but it is also a projectile, and that means that you are using them. And yes, I said that camping was not the only way to win. But being aggressive is no option.

I like what Levitas said about the PK Fires. Yes, you shouldn't overuse them, but you should use them when Ike is trying to finish you off. Sorry if I sounded like I was saying to spam PKF, bad on my part.

And Tyr just explained most of what I did here. You should not simply run into the hurricane, because most players have not fought a good Ike (Kirk, Rykoshet, Azen, Ren) and underestimate the amount of range capable, as well as the Ike itself. In my mind, this should be 5-5 Neutral, but without projectiles, it is much harder to win this match.

Ok just to clear a few things up. First off, we use dair when your on the ground not in the air. Second Samus zair isnt the only thing that has more range than ikes fair, links zair beats it and maybe tl's. Ok you said your dair beats our uair which is wrong. Ike's dair has startup lag and our uair doesnt.
Id say this is at least 60-40 judging that we can camp you with our PKF, Gimp you very easily, and our ground games are about equal but our jab > Yours.

 

[Chuee]

EDIT: Whoops double post =/

 

[Ussi]

when it comes to range:

Only 3 moves will outrange Ike's fair: Samus's and Link's Zair and ZSS's Side B. TL's won't outrange it but its faster and near close in range so its moot point.

On Topic:

Thing with approaching: SHAD allows Ike to approach with jab, but punishing landing lag with Lucas's dsmash counters this. But SH AD counters being attacked (outside of dsmash) so this is just a common mind game.

Also Ike can approach with a spaced fair. Lucas cannot shield grab a fully spaced fair and if he dash grabs, I'm pretty sure Ike's jab will come out first.

IIRC Lucas's ftilt is 4 frames, Ike's jab is 3 frames so Ike's jab is faster than that. But Lucas's jab is 2 frames so it's faster than Ike.

Abusing PK Fire is a viable tactic as long as Ike isn't too close. Dash > PS > Jab works wonders on a lot of projectiles.

Ike's air priority may be great and all, but its SLOW besides bair.

Lucas has an exceptional recovery, gimping is only possible if he doesn't have a 2nd jump. Lucas's PK thunder will **** Ike with proper timing. However, you can't stand to close to ledge or aether will hit you. So not only do you need a safe distance away from the ledge, PK thunder has to get to Ike from a farther distance. So its not auto gimp if you get Ike off the stage.

When it comes to the ground game, Ike's range has a solid advantage, however, when Lucas is up close, his jab takes the advantage. So at mid close range Ike's ground game is superior, but up close Lucas can jab you away.

Air is in Ike's favor, Lucas doesn't have long range aerials. However, Its not that much in Ike's favor as Lucas has some sweet air speed. That air speed plus nair really does some good combos.

Ike flat out kills Lucas earlier than Lucas flat out kills Ike, obviously. Lucas's fsmash is mad good, any good Ike will always space like crazy to avoid that move for its power/speed ratio.

When it comes to combos, Lucas has nair and Ike has Jab. Jab will combo into itself and grab. Grabbing Lucas can lead to a grab release > jab combo if its a ground release. Those jabs really add up from Ike. I don't know what are good Lucas combos, so I'm right now leaning to equal, cause Ike's jab combos at any %. Course enlighten me on what Lucas does for combos.

Lucas cannot usmash so recklessly against Ike since that lag is enough to eat a fsmash... that will kill you at 50%.

So here is what i come up with:

Air game: Ike
Ground: Equal
Camping: Lucas
Killing: Ike
Gimping: Lucas
Combos: Equal

I'm thinking 50-50

EDIT: Ike's utilt will kill lucas at 105% with no DI.

 

[Tyr_03]

Ike players are really into defending their character. The only thing even slightly controversial that brought them here is that I said was that we have an "advantage" which, as I state earlier, is a general opinion and that the level of advantage is left for the reader to decide. I personally think it's like 55-45 Lucas which is practically even.

None of the points I make as far as strategy have even been argued, in fact they've been supported multiple times by players on both sides.

Just pointing out that this discussion is really just repeating a lot of things that have already been said. It's a guide not a chatroom lol.

 

[Ussi]

Tyr, I just came in and stated my thoughts on the MU. I never knew there was something written already lol. Sorry~

I'll give my comments on it later but your character CPs are wrong.

Besides MK, best CPs are Olimar, Falco, and DDD.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol now that's useful. I just went to character boards and saw if their matchup charts had an advantage against Ike. Half of them don't have them anywhere close to finished and lots of characters have an advantage listed against Ike because he's lower on the tier list.

I'm going to leave the ones I have and add those unless someone can show that the other characters either don't in fact have an advantage against Ike or that their advantage is minimal (55-45.) At some point I might make a comment on which characters are hard/soft counterpicks.

Also I wasn't really criticizing. I just think it's funny.

 

[Ussi]

If you want anyone with a 55+ advantage on Ike here is my personal opinion on who has such an advantage:

Diddy Kong 45-55 D <- Requires good nana counter game
Donkey Kong 45-55 D
Falco 3-7 D <- requires not to be on japes or FD and damaging yourself to be 4-6
King Dedede 3.5-6.5 D <- super spacing
Kirby 45-55 N
Lucario 3.5-6.5 D
Marth 4-6 D
Meta Knight 3.5-6.5 D <- lolgimp
Mr G&W 45-55 D <- G&W HAS to know the MU in order to get the small advantage
Olimar 3-7 D <- lolgrab
Pikachu 4.5-5.5 N
Pit 4-6 D <- must know how to mirror aether
R.O.B. 4-6 D
:shiek: Sheik 4-6 D <- switching Zelda = bad
Snake 4-6 D
Toon Link 4-6 D
Wario 4-6
Wolf 4-6 D
Zero Suit Samus 4-6 D

-Don't underestimate Ike

Don't underestimate ANYONE

-Camping is a really good thing to do against Ike. You might think that because he's slow you would want to play aggressively. This could not be more wrong. Ike's jab comes out in 3 frames and can be used to combo. He also has insane range that he can use to space himself against you even with lag on the end. Carefully used PK Fire, PK Thunder and even PK Freeze will be useful.

Any character without a projectile are experts with dealing with camping. Otherwise they wouldn't use such a character. You will be surprised at how far away Ike can jump over a projectile and fair someone in their face in their lag. Course that will only work on a grounded PK. But Ike can duck under a SH PK fire or just SH AD through it. Course PK fire's main purpose to is force Ike to take action. PK Freeze is a bad move in general.

-If you're recovering and Ike starts charging his neutral B, go for the ledge or above him. It has super armor frames.

Eruption mindgames are win lol.

-If Ike starts using Quick Draw on the stage, just send a PK Thunder into him. There's not much he can do about it.

Don't, bad idea IMO cause Ike can release the moment he hears PK Thunder and you'll be wide open as he rushes into you.

-When you start getting jab combo'd DI toward him to escape sometimes.

I'd say away but if you were like inside Ike then go for it and land behind him. Most Ike's 1st jab > 1st jab now since it's a true combo. Seriously Ike's jab will combo into itself infinitely xD

-Ike excels on 3 stages to a ridiculous extent. These are Pirate Ship, Corneria and Yoshi's Island (Melee.) Delfino is also good for him. He is very dangerous in the water because he can use Up B to spike you into the water and then his Dair to kill you. If you get spiked by Dair and live, DI away from the stage and he most often won't be able to get to you in time to spike you again. If you see Ike in the water, stay on the stage and use PK Thunder to hit him or force him out. On Corneria, he has an infinite with his Fthrow against the wall that's really easy for him to set up. If he starts camping down there, just use PK Thunder to force him out. I would just ban Yoshi's Island (Melee) if it's allowed as a counterpick. He can use the ledges in the middle to his advantage and he kills really early. It's extremely gay.

I know nothing of Yoshi's Island (melee) but Ike does excel on those other stages. I'd also add Ike does well on Rainbow cruise. It makes it an air battle where Ike has the advantage. Lucas's projectiles were not made to be used in air combat.

-If Ike is camping on a ledge there's not a lot you can do to him up close. Use PK Thunder sent around his back to hit him and avoid super armor frames. If you edgehog just before he uses Up B, you can prevent him from getting the ledge if he doesn't space right.

Ike has to be stupid to plank against PK thunder. Send him to hell.

3. Stage Counterpicks
-Battlefield
-Frigate Orpheon

IMO Battlefield is a bad idea to bring Ike. long disjoints + platforms = ****, Ike is no exception. Sure you have a rapetastic usmash, but that's it. Ike's usmash covers the entire platform too, and his fsmash will hit on the platform, and it shield pokes VERY WELL when in that position. But, if you are comfortable with BF, by all means pick it.

Frigate and Japes are Ike's two bad stages. Lucas's recovery is too good to be affected by frigate so Ike is pretty ****ed once he gets thrown of the ledge in the 1st stage to the right side. Japes, Ike just sucks recovering from the water since he is limited to aether as QD gets him nowhere.

 

[Tyr_03]

Battlefield is a much better stage for Lucas than it is for Ike. Japes is a dumb stage and I hate it.

DIing away is what you should do after the first jab so that you avoid getting grabbed most often and force him to just do his third jab to hit you away. First and second jabs can be DI'd or SDI'd behind him though.

Quickdraw isn't that fast and PK Thunder is. Most Ike players aren't going to react quickly enough to let go of it the instant they hear PK Thunder which is what they'd need to do. Obviously if it stops working, stop doing it.

You cannot duck SH PK Fire if the Lucas player is smart enough not to use it at the peak of his SH every time. No one does that. Also you cannot just SH Airdodge through. PK Fire lingers when spaced right and hits through airdodges. PK Freeze is not a bad moved when used correctly.
/Ussi'sLucasmatchupcredibility

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Battlefield is a much better stage for Lucas than it is for Ike. Japes is a dumb stage and I hate it.



I highly disagree with that.

Ike's attacks that can hit the low platforms above him: Third Jab Hit, Utilt, Angled Ftilt, SH Uair (outlasts spot dodges, rolls, and ADs, shield pokes, you're basically screwed), SH Fair, SH Bair, Fsmash, Usmash, Aether, Eruption.

Attacks that hit the high platform: SH Aether

Attacks that hit below Ike when he is on the low platform: Dtilt, Dsmash (IIRC, nobody really uses Dsmash much), Eruption. Ike will also fall through Bair or fall through counter.


BF is Ike's best neutral by a very long shot. He has two throws to throw characters onto the low platforms, which puts them into VERY bad positions. The slants on BF also allow Ike to slide up them protected while recovering. The spacing of the platforms are perfect for him, the blastzones are great, you couldn't make a neutral stage better for him.

I don't know why you are talking about QD VS PK Thunder. No good Ike is going to use QD to attack. >_>

And the SHAD was an example. I believe Ike has enough momentum in the air (tied with Toon Link for horizontal air speed) to move through the PK Fire while AD, but it would need testing. Just shielding it works perfectly fine as well. >_>


If you really want to screw Ike over, Jungle Japes. Ike can not win there. Like at all.

 

[Levitas]

If ike decides he has nothing better to do and starts charging a quickdraw, he will be hit by a pk thunder. That's what tyr is saying.

Ike can feel free to SHAD through a SH PK fire (somewhat strict timing), but he'll be landing into lucas's jabs or ftilt.

Thanks for the japes info

 

[prOAPC]

i'm know that Tyr won't like this post, but anyway...

the best Colombian player (Silver) mains Ike, the first time we played, it was my first time fighting a good Ike, i have to say that usmash and fair range, sideB, and jab cancel combos took me by surprise. I lost a best of 5 set, 1-3, and everytime i watch those fights again in youtube, i know i could beat him if i'd use more pk fire and nair :/

 

[xoxokev]

Maybe I can contribute... I don't know if this was already said... but I used Ctrl+F and searched PK Fire... they were all "SH PK Fire"...

Ike doesn't like to short hop... FULL HOP PK Fire is your best friend in the Ike match up...

 

[Tyr_03]

Ike mains need more to do.

I'll replace Battlefield with Japes and be sure to try counterpicking it next time around even though I ****ing hate that stage...

This change has nothing to do with Nidtendofreak's enlightening information on what attacks can hit people on platforms...It just occurs to me that Battlefield is probably just...neutral...both characters gain certain advantages on it.

I seriously need to move on to a new character just to get all the Ike players out of here. lol

 

[Ussi]

Ike can feel free to SHAD through a SH PK fire (somewhat strict timing), but he'll be landing into lucas's jabs or ftilt.

when SH ADing, Ike isn't gonna land in your face. He's gonna land outside you're tilt range but enough where a projectile is too slow.

Battlefield is a much better stage for Lucas than it is for Ike. Japes is a dumb stage and I hate it.

Quickdraw isn't that fast and PK Thunder is. Most Ike players aren't going to react quickly enough to let go of it the instant they hear PK Thunder which is what they'd need to do. Obviously if it stops working, stop doing it.

You cannot duck SH PK Fire if the Lucas player is smart enough not to use it at the peak of his SH every time. No one does that. Also you cannot just SH Airdodge through. PK Fire lingers when spaced right and hits through airdodges. PK Freeze is not a bad moved when used correctly.
/Ussi'sLucasmatchupcredibility

You can't claim a stage is better without giving something as a reason.

QD upon release is 26 frames to finish and will hit between frame 2-12. IMO PK fire is a better option than PK thunder.

if you can't duck, then jump over it or SH AD.

PK freeze is a bad move. Bad moves can be used correctly. Take Ike's QD for example.

 

[Levitas]

If you're outside of my tilt range, I can still retreat further. You're not posing a direct threat yet, and have to move to get in on me. Movement restricts your options.

If you're not moving towards me with SHAD, then you're playing defense and I might as well be hitting your shield with a PK fire all day, it's a neutral stance for the most part, but I'm applying a bit of pressure.

 

[Ussi]

Upon landing though I'm free to chase you with a spaced fair. When SH ADing I will be trying to avoid something you threw at me. Otherwise I'll come in with a nair.

/end theorycrafting, its going no where. Its nuetral and filled with mind games, 50-50 EDIT: or **** it put w/e number you want

 

[Tyr_03]

I hate matchup discussions

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I hate matchup discussions

Guess what the majority of multiboard discussions/flame wars are on smashboards? Might as well get used to them. They aren't going to suddenly go away. >_>

 

[Irsic]

-Don't underestimate Ike

Don't underestimate ANYONE

While this is good advice overall, the reason it applies to Ike is because he hits hard as ****, and his attacks are extremely disjointed and a good player knows how to play Ike faster than what is expected.

 

[lil cj]

Both Lucas and Ike have potential
When it comes to the matchup...I dont think anyone has discussed Lucas' excellent edge guarding ability(besides PKT)
Lucas can screw Ike over pretty badly while he's off stage with fair, dair, and bair.

But Ike on stage...its even though due to his range and jab...
and Ike is pretty good with ledge camping

imo its 55-45
not 50-50

And it was stated earlier that they both have equal combos
Not true...Ike only has jab combos which are great btw
But Lucas has nair,dair, and jab combos...
just wanted to state that

 

[Irsic]

Yes, but we can't really approach Ike for jack, his neutral air beats anything we have, and it autocancels (I think unless we come from above, still unsafe)

 

[Ussi]

And it was stated earlier that they both have equal combos
Not true...Ike only has jab combos which are great btw
But Lucas has nair,dair, and jab combos...
just wanted to state that

to address this:

For combos, Ike has nair > jab (great at lower %'s) and then 1st jab > 1st jab/2nd jab/utilt/grab for all %'s.

Lucas's nair combos at all %'s for all i know, dair probably too if Ike gets sent to the ground and he FAILS to tech, but I've NEVER seen Lucas's jab combo ever combo besides the basic full jab combo to get Ike out of there.

That seemed equal to me.

When it comes to the matchup...I dont think anyone has discussed Lucas' excellent edge guarding ability(besides PKT)
Lucas can screw Ike over pretty badly while he's off stage with fair, dair, and bair.

I'll also address this..

Ike has the ability to do one aerial while recovering. That's enough to keep Lucas away with his short ranged aerials. The only aerial Ike can't do is nair, but the rest are doable. Course, if you manage to avoid the aerial, you're free to hit Ike away for the gimp.

 

[lil cj]

to address this:

For combos, Ike has nair > jab (great at lower %'s) and then 1st jab > 1st jab/2nd jab/utilt/grab for all %'s.

Lucas's nair combos at all %'s for all i know, dair probably too if Ike gets sent to the ground and he FAILS to tech, but I've NEVER seen Lucas's jab combo ever combo besides the basic full jab combo to get Ike out of there.

That seemed equal to me.

Lucas' jab combos are actually jab cancels
Which are kinda like combos
Its the first two jabs then whatever move you want to do
Theres ftilt, dtilt, grab, etc.

Ike isnt really a combo character
Lucas is though
Alot of his moves follow each other perfectly
Some may not be true combos but it still works to an extent
....If the Lucas player knows what to do

Ike is more of a punishing character
looking for openings and mistakes from the opponent