Tyr's Lucas Player's Guide

[Ussi]

Lucas' jab combos are actually jab cancels
Which are kinda like combos
Its the first two jabs then whatever move you want to do
Theres ftilt, dtilt, grab, etc.

Ike isnt really a combo character
Lucas is though
Alot of his moves follow each other perfectly
Some may not be true combos but it still works to an extent
....If the Lucas player knows what to do

Ike is more of a punishing character

Everything I said for Ike is a TRUE combo with frame data to back it up. I am interested in knowing Lucas's true combos. Do tell which are true combos.

 

[lil cj]

Everything I said for Ike is a TRUE combo with frame data to back it up. I am interested in knowing Lucas's true combos. Do tell which are true combos.

I dont know Lucas' frame data...so Levitas or Tyr help me out on this one lol
But from what I know these are his true combos


Dthrow + utilt(low %)
Nair+nair
Nair+jab
Nair+utilt
Nair+ftilt
Dair+utilt
Dair+jab
Dair+ftilt
Dair+dtilt(lock)+fsmash
dtilt+jab

For the nair combos its depends if you Autocancel them or not
And for the dair combos its depends if its FH and fast falled

Lucas' other combos are tech chasers

 

[Levitas]

Aside from highly situational combos, lucas has a couple trash things and good setups for dtilt locks.

Things other than that can be guaranteed by frame data, but not DI, except a certain percents.

Also, Ike's 1st jab to utilt or grab don't combo by your frame data.

jab hits on 4, ends on 17. utilt hits on 13. earliest airdodge is on F13 from end of hitlag. We have about a 9 frame window there, though it's a bit less due to the length of airdodge invincibility.

Similar story on grab, backed by (kirk's) numbers again.

 

[Ussi]

A single Jab, if connected, gives you a 6 frame advantage on your opponent. This means you can act 6 frames before your opponent can do anything(in this case it would be jumping, as it is the fastest action possible).

What does this mean? 1st Jab --> 1st Jab is a true combo. SDI can naturally be used to escape this in time, but it still does work regardless.

Now, if they do NOT jump, they have a significantly longer time before they can do anything(with my testing using Snake, it was about 7 frames more, but this value is dependant on the weight of the character and any SDI used).

Why point this out? This gives you about a 13 frame advantage. Hmmm... *looks at moves that come out in 13 frames* ...Well now we have some Grabs...Utilt...and DSmash!

Neat...eh?

In a sense, yes jab > utilt is not a true combo, if you jump..

Question, can you tech Lucas's dair for the combos listed?

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
Yes. This can be techchased with Usmash however. Also the timing for teching Lucas's dair is suprisingly difficult. It's really ridiculous how many high level players just don't tech it. Probably because they don't come across Lucas very often.

 

[Ussi]

Ike's tech roll is REALLY FAR though. G&W can't tech chase Ike with a usmash from his dthrow cause of the distance Ike rolls from a tech.

I wouldn't be surprised at that, no one really sees Lucas. But hey, no one really sees Ike either lol. (Besides NYC, that place has like everyone)

 

[Luur3]

This thread is definetly gonna come in handy. Anyone know who's next on the list?

 

[Tyr_03]

Matchup information on Metaknight up. Possibly the most important part of the entire guide. I don't feel like I have the matchup perfected (not that I have any of them perfected) but I feel like I put together some pretty solid tips. I learned a ton about the matchup from playing yesterday at a big tournament against some really good Metaknight players like Capem and Judge!

I no longer feel like I'm totally screwed every time I see a Metaknight in my pool/bracket.

 

[Jihnsius]

I'm not too big into jab-locking and haven't really experimented with it, but otherwise I'd actually highly recommend staying away from Lucas' down-air unless you're using it to recover from above. A good opponent will never let you get in a situation in which you're above them and they don't have an upper hand, no matter what characters you're using. I'd imagine most up-tilts and some forward-tilts will even beat out Lucas' down-air, and not to mention it's quite easy to SDI and/or tech out of it.

 

[Tyr_03]

That's not really true at all Jihnsius. Some characters Dair works as an approach and others it really doesn't. For example, Dair hits through Olimars Usmash as well as his Uair which makes it a safe approach against him. However, Snake's Utilt completely ***** it which makes it very hard to approach with it. Most characters do not have fast enough moves with the range to get past Dair.

You'd also be very surprised to know how few people know how to tech Lucas's Dair. The timing varies on the point in the air from which you used Dair which when you're approaching with it varies pretty often. Not to mention the simple fact that most players just don't come across Lucas very often. There are a lot of people who still haven't figured out that Dair has 4 hits, not 3. Of course this only gets you as far as playing people who don't know the matchup well but you'd be suprised just how far that can take you.

You also should consider that just because they can SDI or tech out of it doesn't mean it's useless. It still does 5% per hit which makes it good for racking up damage and if they do tech it, there is no way that they can punish you in time. It just means you have to find another way to get the kill move off. It is generally a low risk and possibly high reward combo. The thing to worry more about is people simply shielding and punishing Dairs when they are characters which have fast moves that hit behind them. However, this is also pretty rare.

Dair has a 6 frame disadvantage on shields. Conveniently it takes 6 frames for the opponent to drop their shield. So if you space to hit behind them, they have much fewer options and often you can shield counterattacks or use a SH Nair to eat away at their shield before they can get an attack out. Exceptions include lots of moves that come directly out of shield such as Bowser's Up B, Marth's Up B, MK's Up B etc. along with some SH aerials if the opponent can react quickly enough.

It is far from a perfect approach or perfect combo and it can be really frustrating when a character or opponent has a solid way of escaping it but overall it has a lot of positive things about it. And trust me, I was the first one to point out the fact that it can and will be teched by some opponents rendering it much weaker. But from tournament experience against a lot of competent players, I've found that it is often quite effective.

 

[Irsic]

Lucas' dair can break Snake's usmash mortar and take no damage. That's a big load of crap, Jihnsius.

 

[ZMan]

pivot grab and fsmash both beat out tornado

 

[Jihnsius]

Lucas' dair can break Snake's usmash mortar and take no damage. That's a big load of crap, Jihnsius.

Wow, you cited one attack that it beats, way to go on proving me wrong.

On the other hand, good points, Tyr. Perhaps I should mess around with it more. However, I'd still think that since it's hitbox is straight down from Lucas that most tilts that come out from in front of a character and/or are disjointed will beat it out most of the time. Just because it currently works in the metagame doesn't mean it can't and won't be beaten easily once someone knows what you're doing.

 

[Levitas]

dair doesn't have an optimal angle like jiggs did in melee with her bair for pressure, but it is relatively safe, and his best option against several characters. Most characters don't cover in front and above well (snake being an exception w/ his utilt), and that's really the angle that matters here.

 

[Irsic]

Mild retreating FH dairs are extremely disjointed and nearly unpunishable because dair telegraphs.

Snake's mortar is the most disjointed usmash in the game, Jih. It appears you missed my point. Very few grounded usmashes/utilts beat out our dair. Lucas basically has the safest dair in the game, aside MK.

 

[Tyr_03]

Yeah I mean it really depends on the matchup. You can't use Dair safely on Snake, Lucario or Peach like ever because they **** it. But a lot of characters have nothing they can do against it once you're above them like Olimar because they don't have enough range and others just don't have a fast enough move that cuts through it like Marth whose Usmash will hit through it but comes out too slowly to be useful in this situation.

I didn't include pivot grabbing and Fsmash to stop the nado because I don't feel like they are that effective. Pivot grabbing only works if the MK is low to the ground which really good Metaknights just won't do. They stay high enough that they can't get grabbed. Fsmash I don't like using against it because it's pretty slow and doesn't have the lingering hitboxes that Usmash and Dsmash have. Also it lacks vertical range which makes it run into the same problem as pivot grabbing.

 

[Irsic]

I just PKF Tornado. Is that what you posted? >_>

Peach is probably the #1 contender for beating our dair. Lucario occasionally, and Snake only if you're approaching to his front side. Lucario in the air is just a bad idea. He's such a hard matchup for me. I think he's one of those characters where you REALLY have to save your fsmash for, because having him not die to fsmash at 120%+ is just devastating.

 

[prOAPC]

i think G&W is good a character counterpick vs MK

 

[Tyr_03]

From my experience, most Game and Watch mains would disagree with that. In fact, I sometimes use Metaknight to counter Game and Watch.

 

[ToxiCrow]

why do u have pirate ship as a CP?

 

[Tyr_03]

I'm still debating that one honestly. The thing is there really isn't a lot that Metaknight can do there. You can use the water to make yourself safe from being edgeguarded and Metaknight can't do a lot in the water so if you get him in there you can keep Dairing him or Uair to hit him off the side or use PKT1. Lucas has a great planking game there and ironically, Metaknight can't plank very easily because you can loop PKT1 around the left side. Also he can't do much with the platforms.

The biggest problem with Metaknight is there are no characters to counterpick against him and there are no stages to counterpick against him. He's pretty much great everywhere. Stages like Norfair and Brinstar that are usually amazing for us can be dangerous to use because they're also amazing for Metaknight. I like Yoshi's Island (Melee) because he can't plank or edgeguard and he dies early. However that stage is banned in most places.

In my opinion, the best thing you can do to stage counterpick Metaknight is to pick a stage that you personally are really good on and preferably one that the opponent doesn't have a lot of experience on. Brinstar, Pirate Ship and Yoshi's Island (Melee) tend to fall under these categories atleast for me.

So yeah...I don't really have a good answer. One of the biggest things I'm working on in this matchup is where the best place to counterpick is (especially when almost everyone bans Brinstar against me now.) I'm starting to really like Delphino which is odd because it's supposed to be a great stage for MK. But the fact that you can get upward kills really early and again Metaknight can't do **** in the water makes it work really well for me sometimes. Basically my answer is, it was better than leaving it blank because I really don't know what the best CP is yet...

Please help! lol

 

[ToxiCrow]

i played against my friend who mains MK on monday. i got ripped to shreds when we played on stages with platforms. i beat him whenever we went to Final Destination becauce i was able to zone properly with wavebounced PK Fire's.
we also played at Luigi's Mansion alot and tbh i felt comfortable on this stage (when it wasnt broken)
by now everyone knows that when PKF hits the pillars it explodes, so that helped to keep him away from me.
Fair really helped keep hiim away too. i normally would advise against Short Hopped Fairs, but when it hits its wonderful =]

the only problem i might have with Pirate ship is that the blastzones on the sides of the stage arent too far away, so shuttleloop may KO.
i'll try pirate ship the next time i play him (which will probably be on friday)

 

[Tyr_03]

If you DI shuttle loop toward the stage it hits you straight up. That'll save you from that problem if you remember it.

I personally hate Luigi's Mansion more than any other stage. It's super gay against Olimar, Lucario and ROB.

 

[ToxiCrow]

i'll try remember that.

Luigi's mansion may be terrible vs those people you just mentioned, but it think it's alright vs MK. i'll play this person again on friday and i'll play on the following:

-Pirate Ship
-Final Destination
-Luigi's
-PS2
-Yoshi's Story (melee)

 

[HiddenBowser]

If you DI shuttle loop toward the stage it hits you straight up. That'll save you from that problem if you remember it.

DI up and towards the stage. The DI that will have the most impact on the trajectory is perpendicular to the angle you're sent at.

 

[Chuee]

I personally hate Luigi's Mansion more than any other stage. It's super gay against Olimar, Lucario and ROB.

I personally love luigi's mansion.
You can get a jab lock by uthrowing, you can extend the duration of your moves with the pillars, you can still get hit them with PKF if it hits a pillar, and you can hide behind the pillars if they try and camp.
Final Destination also seems a good CP for mk since mk does extremely well with platforms. We can PKF camp him really well on there too since he doesn't have anything that goes through it.

 

[~Nasty~]

so i was screwing around the other day w/ my buddy in brawl and we came across this gimp on MK's shuttle loop. we tested it over and over again, on multiple stages, and it seems to work. however, it is difficult to pull of but nonetheless, it's at least SOMETHING we can use against a MK. we made a vid (poor quality so i apologize) and posted it on youtube.... please check it out and post comments on it or on here regarding your thoughts to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMdGw8rn0Ss

 

[Tyr_03]

Unfortunately that's not really new or something we can capitalize very easily on. Metaknight players will take advantage of their multiple recovery methods and only resort to using Up B like that if they're sure that they're going to hit you. It's more likely when they're below the stage that they will use other options such as reverse shuttle loop to land on the stage without lag, side B, glide to the other side and even occasionally tornado or down B.

Gimps on Metaknight are more likely to come from hitting him with a Dair or footstooling him and grabbing the ledge with proper timing after his Up B or his side B. Even these can be very hard to come by. Good Metaknight players are adept at finding safe ways onto the stage.

 

[~Nasty~]

well we figured that. but like i said, it was just a little something to help us out.

 

[Chuee]

Ya but still mk usually doesnt get down to that position. Plus most mk's most always use Reverse SL

 

[clowsui]

Unfortunately that's not really new or something we can capitalize very easily on. Metaknight players will take advantage of their multiple recovery methods and only resort to using Up B like that if they're sure that they're going to hit you. It's more likely when they're below the stage that they will use other options such as reverse shuttle loop to land on the stage without lag, side B, glide to the other side and even occasionally tornado or down B.

Gimps on Metaknight are more likely to come from hitting him with a Dair or footstooling him and grabbing the ledge with proper timing after his Up B or his side B. Even these can be very hard to come by. Good Metaknight players are adept at finding safe ways onto the stage.

except bowyer, scotu and epic who seem to find safe ways onto the ledge LOL

 

[Smeh]

Wow, awesome guide. Thanks!

 

[Tyr_03]

Sorry it's been so long since I've updated. I feel like I'm getting pretty comfortable with the Game and Watch matchup so I wrote the section on him. Please feel free to leave input on things that should be added or clarified.

I'll probably get to Olimar next since I've felt good about that matchup for a while now but just haven't gotten around to it.

 

[professor mgw]

great lucas guide, i thinking of making him a secondary...
mother 3

 

[lil cj]

Cool Ive been waiting for a section on G&W
Even though I havnt had a problem with him yet....
I know he's still considered one of Lucas' worst matchups
I want to play a good G&W

 

[ZMan]

i have yet to lose to a gaw in a tourny set (not really good ones, but still).

good **** tyr. it should be noted that going for the bair spike is almost impossible to do, his uair and upb prevent that from happening

 

[Tyr_03]

Yeah, I was pretty vague on edgeguarding. Bair spike is guaranteed if he buckets a PK Fire though just so you know. But otherwise yeah, it's really hard to get.

I usually win against Game and Watch players as well. Although I haven't played Needle of Juntah yet. My opinion on the matchup has changed a lot. I only think Game and Watch has a slight advantage now. MK, Marth and Snake are worse for us by a good amount imo.

 

[Chuee]

Yeah, we realized that bucket isn't as bad as it seems.

 

[Tyr_03]

Added Falco to the character matchups. Please read to see if there's anything you feel that needs to be added.

I also added stage ban suggestions for the characters. I'm trying to limit it to just the stages that are super gay for those characters since you obviously only get to ban one stage. But yeah, check it out and tell me if there's something you think should be changed.

Yay for summer and maybe eventually finishing this guide!

 

[Galeon]

You should mention that Lucas's nair and the sparks from dair always beat Falco's side-b, not even a trade. Makes it so Falco can't just side-b on stage when pressured with his back to a ledge, and he has to be pretty aware of this when recovering. Generally, I don't think we should use PKT1 to edgeguard him. I never seem to get a kill with it against Falco. Either he tags the tail along with the head when passing through which lowers the knockback by alot or he hits the head but gets knocked towards the stage because of funky hitboxes.

I'm not sure where you'd take Falco (neutrals always seemed right for this match) but I know you should ban Japes.