• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
3,816
Location
Germany
speaking of "boring" Sonic while i 100% agree that his side special should be something else the big push Sonic had to remove the Ball Attacks was dumb i mean sonics main form of attacking is a ball which was nicely reflected in brawl than they gave his some more generic kicks and punches and thats supposed to be an improvement?
Although now sonic has actually some nice meele attacks but that was done after Ultimate was wrapped up!
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
26,300
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
I don't necessarily agree with you. I feel that ZSS is the most logical cut, but if we were ever to get a reboot or some sort of shenanigan, I feel that at this point I'd rather cut Zelda than Sheik. At least, Sheik's ninja prowess give us some sort of moveset capability. Zelda on the other hand? Nothing at all. All the abilities she exhibits in Smash are made up.
That ninja part can also be covered by Impa. Age of Calamity Impa specifically. She could be based around Sheik's basic playstyle but with her own gimmicks and of course own moves. Kinda what would have happened if Lucas actually replaced Ness in Brawl, but to a further extreme.

Zelda has made up moves, sure. So does Sheik. Zelda can have a moveset by now using more of her source abilities. Sheik doesn't, or well, could if they take stuff from the first Hyrule Warriors and maybe the Yiga enemies of BotW / TotK.

Anyway I'd outrightly replace Sheik with Impa here.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,381
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
That ninja part can also be covered by Impa. Age of Calamity Impa specifically. She could be based around Sheik's basic playstyle but with her own gimmicks and of course own moves. Kinda what would have happened if Lucas actually replaced Ness in Brawl, but to a further extreme.

Zelda has made up moves, sure. So does Sheik. Zelda can have a moveset by now using more of her source abilities. Sheik doesn't, or well, could if they take stuff from the first Hyrule Warriors and maybe the Yiga enemies of BotW / TotK.

Anyway I'd outrightly replace Sheik with Impa here.
No, it can't.

Because they are completely different characters. Impa has evolved into more than a Ninja and is a powerful caster and time traveler, as well as a very strong woman in some cases, and uses a completely different weapon while having no strict age when she can fight.

Sheik is solely a ninja. Impa is sometimes a ninja and can be tons of other things. She is best thrown in as a unique character who has niches that Sheik doesn't cover. We don't have a proper lance/spear-like user, for instance. We don't have a muscle woman either. We don't have a woman that even looks somewhat older(30+) playable. She covers stuff that Sheik can't. And Sheik still has zero good reasons to get cut either way. She's easy to make by now and provides a completely unique niche that is entirely different from Greninja. Replacements are pretty silly in the first place and undermines why people like the characters.

Here's the problem with Zelda trying to do BOTW stuff; it's a completely different character entirely who has a different personality and ability set. Just make another Zelda instead of trying to completely alienate the fanbase. There's nothing wrong with Zelda's main moveset, but she does need more tweaks so she's easier to work with. Sheik is just fine balance-wise, in comparison. Besides, who cares if it's made-up. More importantly, Zelda is directly a magical princess with grace and beauty. Changing that undermines her core function as a playable character, thus, making it a severe change. I mean, this isn't asking BOTW Zelda in her dress to be playable with mostly the same moves, but updates a bit with some Champion or other visual stuff to slightly change it to be possibly better. That made some sense because you are tweaking them, not making a blatantly new character.

If you are talking about making a new character, you are just cutting another one. BOTW Zelda, as talked about, is basically a new character in practice. She's not some floaty person. She obviously knows how to use magic, but it's done a lot differently too. She's not the same kind of barrier maiden. It's actually a lot easier to understand why Sakurai didn't go with her. They act super differently. She's not a graceful person in the same way. She's not really regal. She's a different kind of adventurer. Meanwhile Link has never changed much among the games bar being more emotive and sometimes being more silly or serious. It's why you can somewhat change it. Not even his change into Ultimate was more than a few tweaks. He's still odd to use(due to no Gale Boomerang), but it's not a severe change-up. Bowser and Pit were the most changed up anyway, and they still function mainly the same. The most, really, that felt odd, was Pit no longer being able to glide. He lost one core move(Mirror Shield) for the Orbitars, but mostly stayed the same. And as alienating as Bowser and Ganondorf are with their changes, they still function the core same way, for better or worse. That's the goal of moveset changes.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a moveset overhaul, but it makes sense why it's not done(we've had some fairly big ones, but never a straight-out different character). Characters also have never gotten truly replaced either. Not once. Toon Link wasn't a real replacement, but someone taking a similar role to Young Link due to a lack of time to have both in. They are semi-similar, but we already knew it wasn't a replacement the second Ultimate showed Young Link is a different character. ...Which he is, mind you. Maybe at the time, sure, but let's also note some factors of why; Toon Link had a similar moveset and while playing quite differently even then, had the same core role(a child Link). Both being there didn't make much sense. It's the latest child design. But he's still treated as someone else, being a cartoony overhaul based upon the Wind Waker model(and various toon-inspired games).

This is even the only time where we had something that can be called a legitimate replacement. I know people accused Lucario of that for Mewtwo(thematically, they have some similarities), and Ike for Roy(again, thematically they're partially fire swordsman with some heaviness to them, though Ike is way more heavy. They share few moves either way). Pra_Mai may have been Plusle & Minun, and that replacing Pichu does work since they use the same actual bodyshape(hell, they could've been an Echo in all but name, due to being two, if they wanted to in Ultimate. But that requires a looooooooot of work. They might've been a minor idea at best. With the A.I. being hard to program alone, you also have to figure out what should make them different. As they aren't like Ice Climbers, as both do have their own moves and even abilities. So it'd be closer to a Switch-out Character,, as in who is in front. But both would be there. I could go on, but them being scrapped, if it was them, was most likely due to how difficult the idea really is).

---------------

Speaking of, nobody should get a moveset overhaul. Just update them. Tweaks are good. Ganondorf absolutely needs them(a lack of a reflector is his biggest hurdle, but also few good approach options). Alienating the fanbase is not worth it and these overhauls do nothing but help competitive players, the smallest set of the players. Turning casuals off from the game is a far bigger deal. Tier lists will always exist anyway, and somebody will take the bottom spot at some point. It shouldn't be the same character often(unless they're an actual joke character like Pichu and Jigglypuff were), since that just means there's a balance issue instead.
 
Last edited:

Wario Wario Wario

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
11,995
Location
Cheese Wheels of Doom
I don't actually think complete character revamps would benefit competitive players, if anything they'd likely suffer the most from it - not only are they more likely to be attached to a playstyle alongside or even rather than a character, but the general mentality behind revamps from their supporters beyond just "ZOMG SHOULDER BASH MY CHILDHOOD" tends to be on the lines of "Give the old characters a chance against the new" - and competitive players LOATHE the modern Smash moveset design style - for instance, this video has only two non-DLC characters, only one of which predates Namco's reign of the franchise. "DLC" is a common adjective used to refer to any weird gimmicky character, even from the base roster.

Of course though, that's not to say casual players wouldn't be let down by revamps too. Warlock Punch is a staple of casual play.
 
Last edited:

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,381
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
I don't actually think character revamps would benefit competitive players, if anything they'd likely suffer the most from it - not only are they more likely to be attached to a playstyle alongside or even rather than a character, but the general mentality behind revamps from their supporters beyond just "ZOMG SHOULDER BASH MY CHILDHOOD" tends to be on the lines of "Give the old characters a chance against the new" - and competitive players LOATHE the modern Smash moveset design style - for instance, this video has only two non-DLC characters, only one of which predates Namco's reign of the franchise. "DLC" is a common adjective used to refer to any weird gimmicky character, even from the base roster.

Of course though, that's not to say casual players wouldn't be let down by revamps too. Warlock Punch is a staple of casual play.
This isn't really true. Competitive players don't have an issue relearning characters. If the character is better, they'll gladly do the work. It's because the character being better is more what they want, not just playing as the same moveset. Some may dislike changes, yes. But many don't have this issue because it's not alienating to learn things heavily again. It's more time-consuming at best.

Casuals are the only ones to get hard alienated. They just want to pick up and play, not re-learn an entirely different character while playing as the same one. Mario's change to F.L.U.D.D. is a lot more massive than something like Bowser's changes into Smash 4. He still plays largely the same. Ganondorf got more flack in Ultimate due to different Smashes and moving at a highly different speed, changing up the entire strategy. Even then, he's obviously not good despite the so-called improvements. By doing minor tweaks, a casual player can adjust fast enough to not make them drop a character. Competitive players will work with any character that can help them win and winning is their core mindset, not loyalty. Loyalty does happen, but it takes backseat to a good moveset. For casuals, loyalty is more important because they play for the "characters", not the moveset. So having fun with someone and they don't play largely the same? That's not fun anymore. The thing about tweaks is that they can balance or more someone more fun, but they aren't alienating to anyone.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

Spiciest of Guacamoles
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
77,754
Location
somewhere in Canada
Switch FC
SW-4202-4979-0504
speaking of "boring" Sonic while i 100% agree that his side special should be something else the big push Sonic had to remove the Ball Attacks was dumb i mean sonics main form of attacking is a ball which was nicely reflected in brawl than they gave his some more generic kicks and punches and thats supposed to be an improvement?
Having so many ball animations wasn't done as a neat reference or anything like that, it was a way to save time because animating a sphere is less intensive than an entire humanoid body. This is because Sega notably refused to have Sonic in Brawl early on only to change their minds late into development, causing Sonic's moveset to be rushed so it could make it in time. This is also why Sonic's role in Subspace feels as forced as it is.

This is why Sonic has slowly gotten less ball moves as the games went on, because making so many moves have the same animation is bad game design since it makes it harder to be telegraphed in a not very fun way. They just couldn't afford the time to do anything but Ball: The Moveset when making Brawl.

With that said, the old down smash was actually cool. That one could've stayed.
 
Last edited:

Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
3,816
Location
Germany
Having so many ball animations wasn't done as a neat reference or anything like that, it was a way to save time because animating a sphere is less intensive than an entire humanoid body. This is because Sega notably refused to have Sonic in Brawl early on only to change their minds late into development, causing Sonic's moveset to be rushed so it could make it in time. This is also why Sonic's role in Subspace feels as forced as it is.

This is why Sonic has slowly gotten less ball moves as the games went on, because making so many moves have the same animation is bad game design since it makes it harder to be telegraphed in a not very fun way. They just couldn't afford the time to do anything but Ball: The Moveset when making Brawl.

With that said, the old down smash was actually cool. That one could've stayed.
Sonic had already tons of regular attacks in brawl! He only had these normal ball attacks:
Homing Attack
Spindash X 2 (Which i agree should only be one with the other being changed to boost)
His Down Smash
His Up Smash
His Dash Attack
And His Neutral Air
Thats Somewhat half of his movest with all of the Ball Attacks being chosen Logically
The Specials are 2 of his most iconic Abilitys
His Down Smash Has Him Spin Arround Rapidly (which is a unique looking attack)
His Up Smash (Fine that one isnt to relevant but its the one of the only remaining ones)
His Dash Attack (do i even have to explain why that makes sense?)
And His Neutral Air (how can anyone think SOnic not having a attack were he balls up in the Air is a good way of repping him)
Other Than these attacks he only has his basic jump animation which also makes sense and one of his throws (2 if you count one where he flips but doesnt look ball like)
Here watch this Video IMO Every Attack they deballed looks worse (Other Than Smash 4s Roll and kickhybrid)
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

Spiciest of Guacamoles
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
77,754
Location
somewhere in Canada
Switch FC
SW-4202-4979-0504
Thats Somewhat half of his movest with all of the Ball Attacks being chosen Logically
How is it that you've noticed the problem and aren't seeing what the problem is?

The Specials are 2 of his most iconic Abilitys
And they shouldn't be two separate specials when they look so damn similar while having vastly different properties. When someone has to actively study the intricacies of the subtle changes in visual effects to tell apart two moves that otherwise look visually identical, that's not exactly a good thing.

Smash is a flashy platform fighting game, not an eye test.

His Down Smash Has Him Spin Arround Rapidly (which is a unique looking attack)
The split kick is still very Sonic, but that was easily the most unique-looking ball move. I remember spamming it as a kid solely because it looked cool.

I agree that one could've stayed.

Here watch this Video IMO Every Attack they deballed looks worse (Other Than Smash 4s Roll and kickhybrid)
"worse" is subjective.

If you like the rushed moveset where they saved time by making half the moveset just "ball", that's fine. But making some moves more distinct (even if a bit generic) is just a far healthier character design. All the devs really need to do now is to make the two specials unique and he's fine because the other ball moves have no chance of being mistaken for one another.
 
Last edited:

Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
3,816
Location
Germany
How is it that you've noticed the problem and aren't seeing what the problem is?


And they shouldn't be two separate specials when they look so damn similar while having vastly different properties. When someone has to actively study the intricacies of the subtle changes in visual effects to tell two otherwise identical moves apart, that's not exactly a good thing.

Snash is a flashy platform fighting game, not an eye test.


The split kick is still very Sonic, but that was easily the most unique-looking ball move. I remember spamming it as a kid solely because it looked cool.


"worse" is subjective.

If you like the rushed moveset where they saved time by making half the moveset just "ball", that's fine. But making some moves more distinct (even if a bit generic) is just a far healthier character design. All they really need to do now is to make the two specials unique and he's fine.
I Highballed that number heavily its honestly more like a fourth or maybe evn a fifth which is a reasonable ammount!

Im not talking about the 2 Spindashes i never did i was talking about the Homing Attack and 1 of the two Spindashes (probably the down one) The Other One should probably be the boost
Also all of his Ball Attacks can be read: (Dash attack hes Dashing the smash attack have to be charged for max power all specials have a chargeup and his aerial is performed in the air)

Yeah i guess we can both agree that down smash was really cool!

Again i highballed the ammount of ball moves also if im gotta be honest NOW is the time to revamp sonic heavily because he actually has tons of new moves in frontiers but yeah if they remove his second spindash special hes pretty deballed!
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

Spiciest of Guacamoles
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
77,754
Location
somewhere in Canada
Switch FC
SW-4202-4979-0504
I Highballed that number heavily its honestly more like a fourth or maybe evn a fifth which is a reasonable ammount!
That's... still a lot... also you forgot down throw :V

Im not talking about the 2 Spindashes i never did i was talking about the Homing Attack and 1 of the two Spindashes (probably the down one) The Other One should probably be the boost
Also all of his Ball Attacks can be read: (Dash attack hes Dashing the smash attack have to be charged for max power all specials have a chargeup and his aerial is performed in the air)
On paper yes but then the two spin dashes exist, which thrive from the deception of being identical.

I'm glad you at least agree having two spin dash specials is a problem.

Again i highballed the ammount of ball moves also if im gotta be honest NOW is the time to revamp sonic heavily because he actually has tons of new moves in frontiers but yeah if they remove his second spindash special hes pretty deballed!
Smash rarely does revamps, unfortunately. I could see side or down special being something from Frontiers though because changing a move or two is a thing that happens on occasion.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
26,300
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
No, it can't.

Because they are completely different characters. Impa has evolved into more than a Ninja and is a powerful caster and time traveler, as well as a very strong woman in some cases, and uses a completely different weapon while having no strict age when she can fight.

Sheik is solely a ninja. Impa is sometimes a ninja and can be tons of other things. She is best thrown in as a unique character who has niches that Sheik doesn't cover. We don't have a proper lance/spear-like user, for instance. We don't have a muscle woman either. We don't have a woman that even looks somewhat older(30+) playable. She covers stuff that Sheik can't. And Sheik still has zero good reasons to get cut either way. She's easy to make by now and provides a completely unique niche that is entirely different from Greninja. Replacements are pretty silly in the first place and undermines why people like the characters.

Here's the problem with Zelda trying to do BOTW stuff; it's a completely different character entirely who has a different personality and ability set. Just make another Zelda instead of trying to completely alienate the fanbase. There's nothing wrong with Zelda's main moveset, but she does need more tweaks so she's easier to work with. Sheik is just fine balance-wise, in comparison. Besides, who cares if it's made-up. More importantly, Zelda is directly a magical princess with grace and beauty. Changing that undermines her core function as a playable character, thus, making it a severe change. I mean, this isn't asking BOTW Zelda in her dress to be playable with mostly the same moves, but updates a bit with some Champion or other visual stuff to slightly change it to be possibly better. That made some sense because you are tweaking them, not making a blatantly new character.

If you are talking about making a new character, you are just cutting another one. BOTW Zelda, as talked about, is basically a new character in practice. She's not some floaty person. She obviously knows how to use magic, but it's done a lot differently too. She's not the same kind of barrier maiden. It's actually a lot easier to understand why Sakurai didn't go with her. They act super differently. She's not a graceful person in the same way. She's not really regal. She's a different kind of adventurer. Meanwhile Link has never changed much among the games bar being more emotive and sometimes being more silly or serious. It's why you can somewhat change it. Not even his change into Ultimate was more than a few tweaks. He's still odd to use(due to no Gale Boomerang), but it's not a severe change-up. Bowser and Pit were the most changed up anyway, and they still function mainly the same. The most, really, that felt odd, was Pit no longer being able to glide. He lost one core move(Mirror Shield) for the Orbitars, but mostly stayed the same. And as alienating as Bowser and Ganondorf are with their changes, they still function the core same way, for better or worse. That's the goal of moveset changes.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a moveset overhaul, but it makes sense why it's not done(we've had some fairly big ones, but never a straight-out different character). Characters also have never gotten truly replaced either. Not once. Toon Link wasn't a real replacement, but someone taking a similar role to Young Link due to a lack of time to have both in. They are semi-similar, but we already knew it wasn't a replacement the second Ultimate showed Young Link is a different character. ...Which he is, mind you. Maybe at the time, sure, but let's also note some factors of why; Toon Link had a similar moveset and while playing quite differently even then, had the same core role(a child Link). Both being there didn't make much sense. It's the latest child design. But he's still treated as someone else, being a cartoony overhaul based upon the Wind Waker model(and various toon-inspired games).

This is even the only time where we had something that can be called a legitimate replacement. I know people accused Lucario of that for Mewtwo(thematically, they have some similarities), and Ike for Roy(again, thematically they're partially fire swordsman with some heaviness to them, though Ike is way more heavy. They share few moves either way). Pra_Mai may have been Plusle & Minun, and that replacing Pichu does work since they use the same actual bodyshape(hell, they could've been an Echo in all but name, due to being two, if they wanted to in Ultimate. But that requires a looooooooot of work. They might've been a minor idea at best. With the A.I. being hard to program alone, you also have to figure out what should make them different. As they aren't like Ice Climbers, as both do have their own moves and even abilities. So it'd be closer to a Switch-out Character,, as in who is in front. But both would be there. I could go on, but them being scrapped, if it was them, was most likely due to how difficult the idea really is).

---------------

Speaking of, nobody should get a moveset overhaul. Just update them. Tweaks are good. Ganondorf absolutely needs them(a lack of a reflector is his biggest hurdle, but also few good approach options). Alienating the fanbase is not worth it and these overhauls do nothing but help competitive players, the smallest set of the players. Turning casuals off from the game is a far bigger deal. Tier lists will always exist anyway, and somebody will take the bottom spot at some point. It shouldn't be the same character often(unless they're an actual joke character like Pichu and Jigglypuff were), since that just means there's a balance issue instead.
It can.

I don't see why you'd bring up the Oracles Impa into this. I don't get why people do this all the time. That appearance was a one time only thing, never happened later and it's about 20 years or so back. Possibly longer.

Older Impa is a point, but she never fights. And even if they'd choose Old Impa, she's still a Sheikah. So thematically ninja.

I also speak in case of a reboot. Sheik has no reason to stay outside of seniority. The Zelda roster is a mess, and a change is necessary. The BotW line of games offers a great source for move sets for Link, Zelda, Ganondorf and Impa. There's no reason to take the approach Ultimate did if we don't get a DX version.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,381
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
It can.

I don't see why you'd bring up the Oracles Impa into this. I don't get why people do this all the time. That appearance was a one time only thing, never happened later and it's about 20 years or so back. Possibly longer.

Older Impa is a point, but she never fights. And even if they'd choose Old Impa, she's still a Sheikah. So thematically ninja.

I also speak in case of a reboot. Sheik has no reason to stay outside of seniority. The Zelda roster is a mess, and a change is necessary. The BotW line of games offers a great source for move sets for Link, Zelda, Ganondorf and Impa. There's no reason to take the approach Ultimate did if we don't get a DX version.
Nope, still doesn't work.

All the unique Impas don't act nor play the same. She's a completely unique character with too much, and doesn't even remotely overlay Sheik in any way. Even when fighting as a Ninja, Impa is completely different. And we bring up all versions of her because she is a character who spans multiple games. It doesn't matter if it's not used as often. Those are still important parts of her history and shows she's ten times more versatile in being unique. She is not a legitimate replacement for Shiek. She's a unique character who should exist besides her only. They represent different overall things.

A reboot ain't cutting Shiek either. She's not even close to a realistic cut. She's severely popular and a well-designed character. This isn't like Gamefreak and Creatures who actually can be picky about how the Pokemon are used(and Mewtwo's not even in a clear cut position for keeping). This is Nintendo and Sakurai who see her as an easy keep. The closest possible is Brawl, and Sakurai went out of his way to keep her. It'd get nothing but backlash since she's been often a good character too.

As Ninjas, they never once overlapped in abilities overall(with at most, what, one move?). That's the problem with your premise. You think they automatically play alike when it's blatantly not the case. Replacements only work if they're almost identical(like Toon Link to Young Link, and as noted, it wasn't a true replacement either). Even among the examples I noted of "replacements", it was clear that was never the case and they were blatantly different characters. It's why Toon Link wasn't simply renamed Young Link. He does actually play differently. You've only given a good reason for Impa to be a semi-clone(she has some similarities) but that's it. So nope, Sheik is an easy keep. Honestly, only Young Link may be in danger again among the Zelda cast, and that's iffy, as he's kind of easy to remake now. He also represents the playstyle Link and Toon Link don't, which helps.

Cuts obviously will happen, but Zelda's barely got one cuttable character(Young Link) at this point. Meanwhile Pokemon besides Pikachu and Charizard have always been up in the air(with Jigglypuff hanging on by a thread sometimes). Lucas and Wolf are in danger. Ice Climbers aren't unless they won't work with the system. And the rest are... 3rd parties and some of Fire Emblem(which only Marth and Lucina are safe. Chrom relies on Roy only. Robin has a fair chance too, but then we have Corrin and Byleth who are once in a lifetime chances. it's a rotating cast sometimes. Lucina is safe because Marth is. Ike is the other notable one, and he's not necessarily safe. Roy is popular within Smash, but not a guarantee). 3rd parties suffer from licensing, meaning they're always up in the air. Even the most safe ones could have troubles. Ironically this also applies for Pokemon to a minor degree as Gamefreak and Creatures have control over it that they can legitimately say no. Nintendo only shares 1/3 of it, and TPC as a whole(all 3) need to agree on things. Of all these things, there's nothing that makes Sheik an obvious cut in any way, nor does Impa have any legitimate overlap with her as "similar themes" is not a cut reason nor ever was. Even with the closest, Young Link, it's only because there are limited characters and they're almost identical in both roles and and who they are. They both are child Links, and despite being a different person, so is whatever regular Link's incarnation is. It was following the same pattern. We have 3 different normal Links in Smash, for crying out loud. Crazy, isn't it? We have three different Zeldas, and two different Sheiks(the only in Ultimate is still the OOT one, where the one in Brawl/4 is based upon the idea if Shiek was in TP, so basically an OC), and one Ganondorf(but the new version from TOTK could come about... though would play nearly the same with more tweaks anyway, as nobody has gotten a severe revamp in Smash where they are completely divorced from their original moveset. We've had some big changes at best, which mind you are alienating, but not as bad as a fully different character in the same skin).

Either way, Sheik and Impa do not play the same, which is the only way your premise works, and thus, this is why the reason for the replacement doesn't work. Sheik has been relevant for a while now thanks to the various spin-offs, so unsurprisingly, she's not a one-off character, nor should we be encouraging barring them because that bars other good characters like Midna for no real reason. It's bad enough ones like her did get in, but the reason gatekeeps instead. And that's no fun. Impa is awesome, all versions of her. Any would make for an interesting and different character. Any.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,956
Location
Battle Royal Dome
That is true. But even so, having simple punches and kicks would've felt very Mario anyway because he's never meant to be complicated.

Even if you remove the distinct SM64 references in the moves he has, the rest of his non-specials still feel very Mario.


The problem is that while Ganondorf did get buffed, a lot of his worst matchups also did. Some through universal changes like the jumpsquat or reduced landing lag on aerials while others have even more sauce than in previous games. As a result, his buffs did nothing to help.

I do agree the relative lack of zoners and swordies is what made Melee his most viable incarnation though.
I think another reason Ganondorf is so bad is there's little reason to play him when so many characters fill similar roles but are better. Not only does Captain Falcon have mostly the same moveset but with an actual recovery and combo game, but the other superheavies are all better if one is looking to go that route. Incineroar and Kazuya in particular feel very similar to Ganondorf, with both having far better recoveries and combos, and even more explosive kill power! The one thing Ganondorf might have over them is huge, disjointed smash attacks... oh look, Ike literally has the same up and forward smashes, not to mention Cloud or Sephiroth. Hell, even Little Mac and DK are better picks if you want to go the haha funny bad character route.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

Spiciest of Guacamoles
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
77,754
Location
somewhere in Canada
Switch FC
SW-4202-4979-0504
Incineroar and Kazuya in particular feel very similar to Ganondorf, with both having far better recoveries and combos, and even more explosive kill power!
In what world are Incineroar and Kazuya similar to Ganondorf in any way?

The only resemblance they have is being superheavies and hitting hard.

How they approach things in order to actually land the hard hits is completely different between the three of them.

Not only does Captain Falcon have mostly the same moveset but with an actual recovery and combo game
Maybe someone just wants one hard hit rather than trying to do big combos?
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,956
Location
Battle Royal Dome
In what world are Incineroar and Kazuya similar to Ganondorf in any way?

The only resemblance they have is being superheavies and hitting hard.

How they approach things in order to actually land the hard hits is completely different between the three of them.
I was thinking in terms of trading speed for sheer power. The three are slow with pretty rough disadvantage, but designed to capitalize heavily when they do get their turn.

Maybe someone just wants one hard hit rather than trying to do big combos?
Fair enough for casual play, but I was thinking about the competitive side of things. Though even casuals would benefit from learning some bnb combos.
 

Wario Wario Wario

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
11,995
Location
Cheese Wheels of Doom
TBH I think the reason I like Falcondorf so much is from a creative perspective. Reskins are my #1 favourite thing about gaming as a medium, and something that is rarely possible (at least not as easily) in any other medium, I love seeing how devs can remix something to have a different tone or feel without actually modifying anything fundamental (not that Ganondorf doesn't have fundamental changes from Falcon, but you know what I mean. He has all the same animations, but they've got a different feel). Same reason I love old Mario 2/Mean Bean Machine-style localisations.
 
Last edited:

HyperSomari64

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
3,597
Location
Lima, Peru
TBH I think the reason I like Falcondorf so much is from a creative perspective. Reskins are my #1 favourite thing about gaming as a medium, and something that is rarely possible (at least not as easily) in any other medium, I love seeing how devs can remix something to have a different tone or feel without actually modifying anything fundamental. Same reason I love old Mario 2/Mean Bean Machine-style localisations.
I know you didn't played it, but Injustice has DLC Premium costumes where is basically a different character for one on the character selection screen with new voice lines but with the same old moves.
 

FazDude

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2021
Messages
3,176
Location
Wherever good books are sold.
TBH I think the reason I like Falcondorf so much is from a creative perspective. Reskins are my #1 favourite thing about gaming as a medium, and something that is rarely possible (at least not as easily) in any other medium, I love seeing how devs can remix something to have a different tone or feel without actually modifying anything fundamental (not that Ganondorf doesn't have fundamental changes from Falcon, but you know what I mean. He has all the same animations, but they've got a different feel). Same reason I love old Mario 2/Mean Bean Machine-style localisations.
Even if I wouldn't mind a few more changes to Ganondorf, Falcondorf is really interesting from the perspective of the two wildly different characters involved and how one's moveset was relatively slightly tweaked to suit the other theme-wise perfectly. Captain Falcon feels like the fast, flashy racer he is, while Ganondorf feels like the brutish, powerful force he is (even if tier results for the latter indicate otherwise). Even so, they're born from the same blood. They are essentially the same character at their core, yet feel wildly different. I get that this is the result of a few games' worth of changes, but it's commendable how the same core concepts can capture the feeling I'd want from two characters who couldn't be more different.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
1,956
Location
Battle Royal Dome
Now that his smash attacks use his sword, it honestly feels like all Ganondorf really needs to feel like Ganondorf is an energy-ball projectile he can volley. And maybe also be able to volley back other projectiles. Or, let Wizard's Foot deflect them but send them at an upward angle so they wouldn't be likely to hit opponents who were on the ground when they fired a projectile, See, it's stuff like this I turn to when I think about how I would change him; stuff that improves his competitive viability, moreso than stuff that pulls from his source material. Though, a normal up tilt is also something I'd give him, and I would definitely turn to source material to find a fitting one. But I really feel like he only needs those couple changes to feel enough like Ganondorf.
 

Champion of Hyrule

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
4,370
Location
*doxxes myself*
Okay, time for the mother of all Smash hot takes.

I liked Smash Tour. Unironically.
I thought it was a pretty harmless mode, it’s a little bland in the middle but the way it culminates with one huge match is actually pretty fun. I think the hate is mostly just that it’s not a story mode
 

Ze Diglett

Smash Champion
Writing Team
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
2,852
Location
Elsewhere
NNID
ZeDiglett
I thought it was a pretty harmless mode, it’s a little bland in the middle but the way it culminates with one huge match is actually pretty fun. I think the hate is mostly just that it’s not a story mode
I always thought it was confusing and not very engaging. Smash Run wasn't story mode, either, and that mode kicked ass.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,436
If Smash Tour had actually been Mario Party with matches in place of mini-games it would have been amazing. Instead they went for an overly confusing mechanic with everyone going at once and uninteresting boards.

Its not so much a bad mode as one that completely wasted its potential.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

Spiciest of Guacamoles
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
77,754
Location
somewhere in Canada
Switch FC
SW-4202-4979-0504
If Smash Tour had actually been Mario Party with matches in place of mini-games it would have been amazing. Instead they went for an overly confusing mechanic with everyone going at once and uninteresting boards.

Its not so much a bad mode as one that completely wasted its potential.
Thankfully, the best part of it (the final battle where every stock is a different fighter) remained as its own mode in Ultimate.
 

UserKev

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
2,702
I'm just gonna go ahead and rewrite this opinion because it seems no one talks about this concept. Stage Editor would be a far better feature than Stage Builder. Stage Editor would theoretically let you alter stage hazards, platforms and even themes. Being able to play on a night themed Onett or setting a Metroid theme to Peach's Castle always intrigued me.
 

Perkilator

Smash Legend
Writing Team
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
11,407
Location
The perpetual trash fire known as Planet Earth(tm)
I'm just gonna go ahead and rewrite this opinion because it seems no one talks about this concept. Stage Editor would be a far better feature than Stage Builder. Stage Editor would theoretically let you alter stage hazards, platforms and even themes. Being able to play on a night themed Onett or setting a Metroid theme to Peach's Castle always intrigued me.
1). Hazard Toggle already exist
2). If it weren’t for copyright ********, I’d like to just use the My Music feature to play whatever song I want on whatever stage I want.
 

Wario Wario Wario

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
11,995
Location
Cheese Wheels of Doom
Smash needs to move away from primarily catering to fan demand - Ultimate's newcomer selection feels very artless and design-by-comittee compared to earlier games. I'm not sure if the alternative would be focusing more on the dev team's personal bias or leaning more into a "celebration of gaming", but either is fine. I do think focusing on promo picks is a greater evil though, and that fan requests alone aren't inherently bad, just that a focus on them above all else is.
 
Last edited:

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
22,656
Location
Scotland
Smash needs to move away from primarily catering to fan demand - Ultimate's newcomer selection feels very artless and design-by-comittee compared to earlier games. I'm not sure if the alternative would be focusing more on the dev team's personal bias or leaning more into a "celebration of gaming", but either is fine.
i think the alternative is a lottery
 

UserKev

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
2,702
Smash needs to move away from primarily catering to fan demand - Ultimate's newcomer selection feels very artless and design-by-comittee compared to earlier games. I'm not sure if the alternative would be focusing more on the dev team's personal bias or leaning more into a "celebration of gaming", but either is fine.
Yeah. Smash has been inconsistent most recently. I feel like if your trying to preserve the "Ultimate" trope, can kinda create inevitability. I would actually love for Smash to try to return its roots. When "little" was the norm that can create a consistent direction for it.
 

Lenidem

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
1,252
Yeah. Smash has been inconsistent most recently. I feel like if your trying to preserve the "Ultimate" trope, can kinda create inevitability. I would actually love for Smash to try to return its roots. When "little" was the norm that can create a consistent direction for it.
"Little" what? A small roster?

The appeal of Smash and its "raison d'être" is the fan's pleasure to play as different favorite characters and make them meet other favorite characters that they should never have met. It has always be like that, and I don't see what could be better than that.
 

Wario Wario Wario

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
11,995
Location
Cheese Wheels of Doom
The appeal of Smash and its "raison d'être" is the fan's pleasure to play as different favorite characters and make them meet other favorite characters that they should never have met. It has always be like that, and I don't see what could be better than that.
To me as a kid, the appeal of Smash was learning about weird old games I had never heard of like Game & Watch and Dr. Mario. I was huge into WarioWare and Pokemon at the time but barely ever played as the characters from those games - my most wanteds at the time were generally more obscure Nintendo characters I learned about from the (at the time, unfortunately Nintendocentric) 80s/90s gaming nostalgia culture, primary of which being Duck Hunt. In my kid-mind, Mario and Pikachu were just there to sell extra copies for their ROB vs. Ice Climbers game.

Not to mention that not everyone's favourites will be part of the big fan pipe dream picks, see the generally positive response to Piranha Plant for instance, and not every popular character will lend themselves well to a moveset, even if you can make a moveset for anyone, especially in the age of source accuracy.

Not to mention that - even if unintentionally - Smash does have the ability to shape players' perceptions of gaming history, and most Smash fan requests on the third party side don't take this into account (case in point: the bear)
 
Last edited:

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
22,656
Location
Scotland
Not to mention that - even if unintentionally - Smash does have the ability to shape players' perceptions of gaming history, and most Smash fan requests on the third party side don't take this into account (case in point: the bear)
well that's basically what lenidem means. people are gonna ask for who they want to see in the crossover
 

UserKev

Smash Champion
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
2,702
"Little" what? A small roster?

The appeal of Smash and its "raison d'être" is the fan's pleasure to play as different favorite characters and make them meet other favorite characters that they should never have met. It has always be like that, and I don't see what could be better than that.
Sounds like a raison d'être for balance issues to be honest. I say Smash should stay at the 50-59 limit character roster. Any higher is way too unmanageable.
 

Oracle Link

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
3,816
Location
Germany
I would honestly rather have a Zelda Smash game next over a regular one!
Zelda is Starved for spinoffs and sports would maybe be a bit to silly for nintendo(Although if they only have the heroes and LIL Cute Monsters it wouldnt be that Unbelivable Lore wise) so having a smash zelda would be great and you know the best part you could just port like 5 Characters from that game over too smash!
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

Cosmic God
Super Moderator
Premium
BRoomer
Writing Team
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
15,494
NNID
VenusBloom
3DS FC
0318-9184-0547
I would honestly rather have a Zelda Smash game next over a regular one!
Zelda is Starved for spinoffs and sports would maybe be a bit to silly for nintendo(Although if they only have the heroes and LIL Cute Monsters it wouldnt be that Unbelivable Lore wise) so having a smash zelda would be great and you know the best part you could just port like 5 Characters from that game over too smash!
I would prefer an Arc Sys Zelda rather than a Smash Zelda. Makes more sense.

But I also would prefer an Arc Sys Fire Emblem over an Arc Sys Zelda cause it makes even more sense.
 
Top Bottom