Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Aligo]

The Splattack remix from Ultimate is better than the original version

Sure the instruments are better, but it doesn't really fit Splatoon or the inklings very well, at least in my opinion.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

While it's something a lot of people complain about, I personally really appreciate how Smash's EarthBound rep greatly prioritizes the surrealism and parody-Americana over the dark spooky side - those elements are way more memorable to me. Smash also has a nasty habit of taming comedy-based franchises - which includes EB - so it's nice that the series' representation can at least show a bit of the sillier side of the games.

Not to mention that Mother 3 specifically's darker side would be impossible to represent more than it is without plunging into horrifically bad taste - hell, Lucas' Masked Man alt costume already feels a bit like a step too far.

 

[Perkilator]

I know Smash is never above criticism, but I’m genuinely tired of all the negativity surrounding it.

 

[Opossum]

While it's something a lot of people complain about, I personally really appreciate how Smash's EarthBound rep greatly prioritizes the surrealism and parody-Americana over the dark spooky side - those elements are way more memorable to me. Smash also has a nasty habit of taming comedy-based franchises - which includes EB - so it's nice that the series' representation can at least show a bit of the sillier side of the games.

Not to mention that Mother 3 specifically's darker side would be impossible to represent more than it is without plunging into horrifically bad taste - hell, Lucas' Masked Man alt costume already feels a bit like a step too far.

In fairness, Mother 3's stage choice does delve into its darker aspects; it's just not immediately apparent to those who didn't play it. New Pork City itself is symbolic of the introduction of capitalism leading to the inevitable rise of fascism, which itself was a key part of Mother 3's storytelling. So the use of the Pigmask insignia, the inclusion of a song titled "Isn't This Such a Utopia?", and making most of the city cardboard just like the source game helps reflect the superficial commercialism with something sinister waiting beneath (as exemplified by the inclusion of the Ultimate Chimera, a warped creature of nature twisted by a capitalistic and fascistic regime).

It just doesn't delve into the more personal tragedies, understandably.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

In fairness, Mother 3's stage choice does delve into its darker aspects; it's just not immediately apparent to those who didn't play it. New Pork City itself is symbolic of the introduction of capitalism leading to the inevitable rise of fascism, which itself was a key part of Mother 3's storytelling. So the use of the Pigmask insignia, the inclusion of a song titled "Isn't This Such a Utopia?", and making most of the city cardboard just like the source game helps reflect the superficial commercialism with something sinister waiting beneath (as exemplified by the inclusion of the Ultimate Chimera, a warped creature of nature twisted by a capitalistic and fascistic regime).

It just doesn't delve into the more personal tragedies, understandably.

Yeah, that last point is what I was referring to - the Masked Man, Porky's backstory, that sort of thing (seriously, if you can't make a moveset for a potential Smash character without referencing corporal punishment, they're probably not a very wise inclusion) - there's nothing particularly in-bad-taste about how New Pork City is handled in Smash or even the Porky boss fight in Brawl even with context of M3, hence why I said "more than it is", though M3's representation does become a little bit awkward - albeit in a funny way rather than an offensive one - now that the likes of Microsoft and Disney are involved.

 

[Opossum]

Yeah, that last point is what I was referring to - the Masked Man, Porky's backstory, that sort of thing (seriously, if you can't make a moveset for a potential Smash character without referencing corporal punishment, they're probably not a very wise inclusion) - there's nothing particularly in-bad-taste about how New Pork City is handled in Smash or even the Porky boss fight in Brawl even with context of M3, hence why I said "more than it is", though M3's representation does become a little bit awkward - albeit in a funny way rather than an offensive one - now that the likes of Microsoft and Disney are involved.

Yeah, that last bit is kind of the concession that has to be taken when the copyrights for decidedly anti-capitalist stories are owned by mega corporations lol. Even Nintendo themselves aren't immune in that regard, especially with the whole "we will actively ruin someone's life to the fullest extent of the law for running a ROM download site" **** they pulled recently. Though I do suppose it's a small victory that they can't do anything with the Mother/Earthbound IP without Itoi's permission since he owns half the copyright himself. So that's a partial win for Creator's Rights.

 

[jamesster445]

I know Smash is never above criticism, but I’m genuinely tired of all the negativity surrounding it.

Nux said it a while back but it remains relevant. The Smash Bros fandom isnt a toxic fandom, it's an ungrateful fandom.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Nux said it a while back but it remains relevant. The Smash Bros fandom isnt a toxic fandom, it's an ungrateful fandom.

While I'm on the subject...
I dont listen to people who say they want a reboot of Smash Bros. Why would you reinvent the wheel after the wheel became the single best selling fighting game in history. Especially if you're trying to make a similar type of wheel. If they really want to reboot Smash Bros. They should go from a 2D Platform Fighter to a 3D Platform Fighter.

Honestly, the "be grateful" crowd is to blame for a lot of the toxicity in the fandom IMO. Why should I be grateful for a game that added very little in the way of content I care about, plays worse than others in the genre, and I generally got tired of year 1?

 

[Quillion]

Nux said it a while back but it remains relevant. The Smash Bros fandom isnt a toxic fandom, it's an ungrateful fandom.

Honestly, the "be grateful" crowd is to blame for a lot of the toxicity in the fandom IMO.

Why fight over which is worse? Because...

 

[Ben Holt]

Rathalos is not too big.
I am officially throwing my support behind him as a playable character in Smash 6.

 

[Quillion]

I hope that if next game still has informative Smash Taunts like Snake's Codec and Palutena's Guidance, they won't voice-act them and instead use the text+gibberish approach a la Pikmin and Banjo.

Because honestly, that way we won't be locked into never hiring the VAs back for more recording and it's easier on the devs.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Why fight over which is worse? Because...

Centrism's all well and good [it's not actually, but that's a discussion for another time], but I don't really see how both sides can be equally blamed here? The worst the "ungrateful" crowd did was not like a game, maybe be a little annoying about it, but not to the degree of actively chastising people for not being satisfied with a $60 product made by a company that doesn't love you back. One side is necessarily obnoxious, the other only is in a handful of edge cases.

 

[Quillion]

Centrism's all well and good [it's not actually, but that's a discussion for another time], but I don't really see how both sides can be equally blamed here? The worst the "ungrateful" crowd did was not like a game, maybe be a little annoying about it, but not to the degree of actively shaming people for not being satisfied with a $60 product made by a company that doesn't love you back. One side is necessarily obnoxious, the other only is in a handful of edge cases.

Nah, I still see certain people who want their Melee-like Smash game accuse fans of later games of being "casuals", which is still definitely shaming.

Also, obnoxiousness is never necessary.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Are people actually arguing over which one is more obnoxious?

We could just not... be obnoxious. At all.

Anecdotal accusations of one side being more obnoxious is worth nothing. This is a stupid conversation that will not end well. I suggest we move on.

 

[jamesster445]

Why fight over which is worse? Because...

Eh, you're not wrong.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Are people actually arguing over which one is more obnoxious?

We could just not... be obnoxious. At all.

Anecdotal accusations of one side being more obnoxious is worth nothing. This is a stupid conversation that will not end well. I suggest we move on.

I'm just wary of people barging into discussions to call both sides stupid and contribute nothing. It's something you see way too often on the internet and the past few years of Paper Mario discourse put me off from that sort of attitude pretty thoroughly.
Anyway, if not being happy with Ultimate and wanting the series to change going forward makes me an ingrate, then hand me an evil mustache to go with the top hat and monocle.

 

[Quillion]

Accusing people of being obnoxious is inherently obnoxious. I'll just end my thoughts on that contest there.
----
NASB2 is incorporating a super meter in almost the way I want Smash to. Super/EX Specials are a thing, plus there's a form of "burst" as a universal get-off option.

That said, I hope Smash does it very differently. Leave the FS to the Smash Ball if at all. Roman Cancel is unnecessary and I'd rather have all jabs and tilts cancelable with jump if anything. I think burst should only be usable as a sort of replacement for L-Canceling (or forced L-Cancel drop in this case), where you can use Burst to counter any attack on shield for a stun, but the burst itself can't be used out of hitstun and can still be grabbed out of.

 

[Lenidem]

Even in the best game of all times, there is absolutely nothing to be "grateful" for.

 

[Quillion]

Even in the best game of all times, there is absolutely nothing to be "grateful" for.

I really get the sense that in 90% of internet debates if you're "grateful", you're an mindless apologist, and if you criticize, you're "ungrateful".

And not only the debaters feel negatively about the opposing side, but you get exaggerated BS like this that claims TotK fails to live up to the legacy of its franchise. So unilateral gratefulness and unilateral criticism is both encouraged and discouraged.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I really get the sense that in 90% of internet debates if you're "grateful", you're an mindless apologist, and if you criticize, you're "ungrateful".

And not only the debaters feel negatively about the opposing side, but you get exaggerated BS like this that claims TotK fails to live up to the legacy of its franchise. So unilateral gratefulness and unilateral criticism is both encouraged and discouraged.

Wait hang on- I’ll maybe watch the video later but TotK not living up to the legacy of the franchise sounds like a perfectly reasonable complaint. I don’t agree but considering the flaws with most of the story and dungeons generally being weaker I think that’s a reasonable position to hold.

Even if it wasn’t why are we comparing one dude who doesn’t like the game to someone begging you to be grateful for a 70 dollar game you might not have even enjoyed? One is an actually toxic mindset and another is one dude who doesn’t like a product. Even if they’re super unreasonable about it, oh well, they didn’t like it. It’s not about which is more obnoxious it’s about which has more negative effects.

 

[Lenidem]

I really get the sense that in 90% of internet debates if you're "grateful", you're an mindless apologist, and if you criticize, you're "ungrateful".

And not only the debaters feel negatively about the opposing side, but you get exaggerated BS like this that claims TotK fails to live up to the legacy of its franchise. So unilateral gratefulness and unilateral criticism is both encouraged and discouraged.

Yes, I think it is a bit crazy to be "grateful" for a product that you buy. Even if it is a great product and/or a great piece of art, it wasn't made for your sake out of kindness.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I really get the sense that in 90% of internet debates if you're "grateful", you're an mindless apologist, and if you criticize, you're "ungrateful".

I mean, that's basically the mentality that's made Pokemon discourse insufferable for the past several years. Even then, I wouldn't shame both sides since the brunt of the aggression's clearly coming from one side. That's how most fandom camp wars are IMO.

 

[Quillion]

Yes, I think it is a bit crazy to be "grateful" for a product that you buy. Even if it is a great product and/or a great piece of art, it wasn't made for your sake out of kindness.

Don't get me wrong, unilateral gratefulness is a load of trash since it inevitably leads to NSMB/Pokemon-level stagnation. I believe that's what you mean by "gratefulness", though you may correct me.

I'm just saying: I'd prefer to be grateful for certain aspects and also still free to criticize others. Sometimes both on certain aspects at the same time.

Even then, I wouldn't shame both sides since the brunt of the aggression's clearly coming from one side. That's how most fandom camp wars are IMO.

It may start from one side, but in the end, it always seems to devolve into one giant urinating contest where aggression and condescension are casually thrown around to the point where it doesn't really matter who started it anymore. And it isn't even a fight over something worth knowing who started it like some war to end a dictatorship or to free slaves.

Yeah, Pokémon discourse is insufferable. So is that of Zelda, and yes Smash. But IMO, it would be much less so if we collectively knew who starts everything and just make it stop there.

 

[jamesster445]

I dont listen to people who say they want a reboot of Smash Bros. Why would you reinvent the wheel after the wheel became the single best selling fighting game in history. Especially if you're just trying to make a similar type of wheel. In fact I think a majority of the fighter designs are pretty good actually, even nay especially the 64 characters. I find most people are a lil too hung up on references or want change simply for the sake of change that they ignore fighting game design and how to design for it.

And if you really want to "freshen up" characters it's not by taking away their existing options and completely redoing their movesets. That's just going to piss off people who now have to throw away 10-20 years of legacy skill. You do it by adding options. I think Shield Specials should be a standard for every character.

And if you really wanted to, every character should have another set of normals, heavy versions of normals similar to Ryu and Ken. You can even expand on that with heavy dash attacks and heavy aerials, not sure if we need heavy Smash attacks. Whether these are press and hold inputs like Ryu and Ken or a third attack button similar to Nick Brawl I'll let you decide. Giving characters new tools in conjunction with their legacy tools is exactly what SF6 (and most fighting games if we're being honest) did... and I'd say it's working out really well. Someone who might've only played SF2 can jump in and pick up Ryu and not only maintain most of their legacy skill, but they get to discover all of the new tricks the character has learned in conjunction with whatever new mechanics the game offers. My only problem with this is that it might take away some of the pure simplicity of Smash's design.

And If they really want to completely reinvent the wheel. They should go from a 2D Platform Fighter to a 3D Platform Fighter.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't understand the logic behind maining a character just because you like their source material and not because their gameplay suits you.

 

[fogbadge]

I don't understand the logic behind maining a character just because you like their source material and not because their gameplay suits you.

that’s because it’s not logical it’s “hey I like this guy”

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'd love it if the next Smash game fully embraced its kiddie slapstick side - not just on the same level as 64, but beyond it. Goofy sound effects, unicorn-vomit colourful menus, giant onomatopoeias appearing above characters when hit, cel shading and exaggerated proportions for more realistic/mature characters to play up the dissonance, outright parodying games as much as honouring them, so on. Current day Smash feels very self-conscious and self-important about itself, so propelling at lightspeed in the opposite direction would be so cool. May not work with a continued emphasis on 3Ps though.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I posted a profile post about this ages ago, but I may as well post it here as well:

I'd love to see Smash include content related to regrettable or embarassing parts of Nintendo history - edgy 90s and 2000s adverts, cheesy cartoon and anime adaptations, the CD-i Mario/Zelda and PC Mario/Pokémon games, a Mortal Kombat fighter having some kind of sweat-related gag, the Genesis Does What Nintendon't jingle as a music track, stuff like that. Hell, add the Game Genie genie mascot as a fighter while you're at it!

Don't forget the bootlegs like the ones that use an original code or the many romhacks where Mario is slapped in.

 

[Lenidem]

Don't get me wrong, unilateral gratefulness is a load of trash since it inevitably leads to NSMB/Pokemon-level stagnation. I believe that's what you mean by "gratefulness", though you may correct me.

I'm just saying: I'd prefer to be grateful for certain aspects and also still free to criticize others. Sometimes both on certain aspects at the same time.



It may start from one side, but in the end, it always seems to devolve into one giant urinating contest where aggression and condescension are casually thrown around to the point where it doesn't really matter who started it anymore. And it isn't even a fight over something worth knowing who started it like some war to end a dictatorship or to free slaves.

Yeah, Pokémon discourse is insufferable. So is that of Zelda, and yes Smash. But IMO, it would be much less so if we collectively knew who starts everything and just make it stop there.

Maybe it's just a matter of definition.

I'm grateful when a friend invites me to his place and cooks for me. I'm grateful when someone I know sends me a postcard during a travel, letting me know that he thinks of me while abroad. I'm grateful when a stranger gives me the directions I need when I am lost. In a word, I'm grateful when someone is nice to me, genuinely nice, whith no after thought. If I was a religious or spiritual person, I guess I could be grateful to God or to the world when I have had a nice day.

When I find something amazing in a game, or a book or a movie, I can feel impressed, amazed. I can admire the ideas, the hard work, the genius behind a feature. But I wouldn't call that gratefulness.

For me, gratefulness can only be experienced when something is being offered to you personally. If it is impersonal, or if there is an idea behind the gesture (like getting your vote or your money), then when should use other words, because it's a different feeling.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Maybe it's just a matter of definition.

I'm grateful when a friend invites me to his place and cooks for me. I'm grateful when someone I know sends me a postcard during a travel, letting me know that he thinks of me while abroad. I'm grateful when a stranger gives me the directions I need when I am lost. In a word, I'm grateful when someone is nice to me, genuinely nice, whith no after thought. If I was a religious or spiritual person, I guess I could be grateful to God or to the world when I have had a nice day.

When I find something amazing in a game, or a book or a movie, I can feel impressed, amazed. I can admire the ideas, the hard work, the genius behind a feature. But I wouldn't call that gratefulness.

For me, gratefulness can only be experienced when something is being offered to you personally. If it is impersonal, or if there is an idea behind the gesture (like getting your vote or your money), then when should use other words, because it's a different feeling.

Precisely. I'm "grateful" when someone does something for me personally expecting nothing in return, not when a multibillion dollar corporation sells me a game for 60 bucks.

 

[MasterCheef]

Precisely. I'm "grateful" when someone does something for me personally expecting nothing in return, not when a multibillion dollar corporation sells me a game for 60 bucks.

Usually , i would agree with you. However I definitely would make an exception for the next smash game if i got my most wanteds ; being , Ahri & Master Chief.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

Arvis is an underrated pick for new Fire Emblem reps.

(hes also another character played by xander mobus so that would be funny)

 

[Perkilator]

I think if Alear were to be in Smash, they would work best by basing them on their appearance as the 13th Emblem. Gameplay-wise, Alear becoming an Emblem allows any adjacent units to Engage with them. With that in mind, you could probably get away with Alear summoning Alfred, Diamant, Ivy and Timerra for their specials while in Engage mode.

 

[Laniv]

The laziest character taglines are the ones that go "(Character) (Verb)s in!"

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The laziest character taglines are the ones that go "(Character) (Verb)s in!"

It almost never works either as interesting. Though I can see it fit sometimes; "MegaMan.EXE Jacks in!" for instance.

But yeah, it gets boring fast. Sometimes it's fine, but still. I like the variety~

 

[Laniv]

It almost never works either as interesting. Though I can see it fit sometimes; "MegaMan.EXE Jacks in!" for instance.

But yeah, it gets boring fast. Sometimes it's fine, but still. I like the variety~

Things like "Little Mac Punches In!" or "Wii Fit Trainer Weighs In!" or "Chibi-Robo Plugs In!"? Those work, because they're puns that fit the character.

Something like "Tails Flies In!" or "Alex Swaps In!" Those could use some work

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Things like "Little Mac Punches In!" or "Wii Fit Trainer Weighs In!" or "Chibi-Robo Plugs In!"? Those work, because they're puns that fit the character.

Something like "Tails Flies In!" or "Alex Swaps In!" Those could use some work

I'll give credit for Alex(do you mean Steve's swap, or a different fan concept?) if it's referring to Minecraft. This at least fits the idea of being a palette swap and the skins thing has some history in Minecraft. Steve, the default skin, didn't have a name till way later on, by the fans no less. So Alex, the core female skin, doing that feels a bit more pleasing just because of the history of the Minecraft skins. Unfortunately it's not the first thing many think of, so it's not as easily neat to fans in general.

It's still a bit boring, but it does make sense. ...Tails, yeah, that's super boring. He's not just a flier. He's the Luigi of the Sonic series. He's a Gadgeteer Genius(though not as smart as Eggman, still a pretty good rival to him), etc.

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out some fun ones for my most wanted, without them being boring like you said. X.X

 

[FazDude]

I personally like “Tails Flies High!” in reference to his theme from the Adventure games. Maybe that’s just me, though.

 

[Laniv]

I'll give credit for Alex(do you mean Steve's swap, or a different fan concept?) if it's referring to Minecraft. This at least fits the idea of being a palette swap and the skins thing has some history in Minecraft. Steve, the default skin, didn't have a name till way later on, by the fans no less. So Alex, the core female skin, doing that feels a bit more pleasing just because of the history of the Minecraft skins. Unfortunately it's not the first thing many think of, so it's not as easily neat to fans in general.

It's still a bit boring, but it does make sense. ...Tails, yeah, that's super boring. He's not just a flier. He's the Luigi of the Sonic series. He's a Gadgeteer Genius(though not as smart as Eggman, still a pretty good rival to him), etc.

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out some fun ones for my most wanted, without them being boring like you said. X.X

I was referring to Alex from Minecraft, yes. And I will admit it's better than I gave it credit for. At least, it's better than "Zombie Spawns In!"

I have thought of some other taglines for characters I've had ideas for... some of them better than others!

Spoiler: Long

Toad is Ready to Party!!
Captain Toad is Ready for Adventure!!
King Boo Joins the Fright!!
Pauline Puts On A Show!!
Dixie Kong Goes Bananas!!
Cranky Kong Comes Out Of Retirement!!
Captain Syrup Sets Sail!!
Mona Delivers the Goods!!
Paper Mario Refuses to Fold!!
Ganon Rises!!
Dark Matter Casts a Shadow!!
Bandana Dee Spearheads the Charge!!
Adeleine & Ribbon Bring the Pain-t!!
Magolor Takes The Crown!!
Susie Gets With The Program!!
Meowth Prepares For Trouble!!
Buzzwole Joins The Swarm!!
Pheromosa Bugs The Competition!!
Slippy Is On Guard!!
Peppy Is On A Roll!!
Tiki Awakens!!
Elma Claims Her Place!!
Medusa Extinguishes Hope!!
Alph Comes In For A Landing!!
Tom Nook Comes to Collect!!
Glass Joe Knocks ‘em Out?!
Octoling Claims Her Turf!!
Takamaru Makes the Cut!!
Chibi-Robo Cleans House!!
Rhythm Girl Brings the Beatdown!!
Savvy Stylist Dresses for Success!!
Spring Man Bounces Back!!
Ribbon Girl is ARMed and Dangerous!!
Ayumi Tachibana is On the Case!!
Lip is in Full Bloom!!
Tempo Keeps the Beat!!
Sablé Prince Rings the Bells!!
Isaac Makes His Move!!
Excitebiker Takes A Victory Lap!!
Nintendo DS Is Ready To Duel!!
Nintendo 3DS Leaps Out!!
Tails Goes the Extra Mile!!
Knuckles Breaks ‘em Down!!
Shadow Controls the Chaos!!
Dr. Eggman Gets Cracking!!
Amy Rose Drops the Hammer!!
Chun-Li Kicks It Up A Notch!!
Bomberman Has a Blast!!
Klonoa Dreams of Battle!!
Arle Nadja Gets the Hard Drop!!
Black Mage Casts a Spell!!
Cuphead Rolls the Dice!!
Mugman Brews For a Brawl!!
Cooking Mama Stirs Up Trouble!!
Crash Bandicoot Spins to Win!!
Rayman Lends a Hand!!
Bubsy is No Claws for Alarm!!
Captain N Masters The Battle?!?
Nester Is Playing With Power!!
Sandbag Batters Up…?

 

[FazDude]

Spoiler: Some Cool Taglines I Did Lol

• Meet the Heavy! / The Heavy Joins The Team!
• Crash Goes N-Sane!
• Too Bad, Waluigi Time!
• Rayman Goes Out On A Limb!
• The Knight Descends!
• Doom Slayer Razes Hell!
• Dante Hits The Jackpot!
• Bandanna Waddle Dee Spearheads Victory!
• Shantae Is Ret-2-Go!
• Tails Flies High!
• Dr. Eggman's Got The Master Plan!
• Phoenix Wright Makes His Case!
• Meet the Scout! / The Scout Goes Up To Bat!
• Meet the Soldier! / The Soldier's Here To Rock It!
• Geno Grants Your Wishes!
• Travis Touches Down!
• Monokuma Doles Out Punishment!
• Master Chief Finishes The Fight!
• Shadow Controls The Chaos!
• Kiryu Gets Heated!
• Paper Mario Enters The Fold!
• Reimu Seals The Deal!
• Shovel Knight Strikes The Earth!
• The Impostor is Among Us!
• Leon Gets A STARing Role!
• Hat Kid Is Just In Time!
• Spyro Gets Fired Up!
• Meet the Engineer! / The Engineer Dispenses Some Pain!
• Chell's Up For The Test!
• Freddy Stays the Night!
• Alucard Makes Himself Familiar!
• Meet the Demoman! / The Demoman Has A Blast!
• Makoto Finds The Truth!
• Neku Enters The Game!
• Prinny Has His Hour (not really fond of this one lol)
• Knock Knock, It's Knuckles!