Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Ze Diglett]

I've said a few things on this thread alluding to this, but I don't believe I've ever said this outright: I don't get why Smash fans hate the idea of playable generic enemies, like I can't even come up with a non-valid reason to refute, let alone a valid one.

For me, I simply think generic enemies aren't as cool in the vast majority of cases as named ones. Even in, like, Mario Kart where enemies are regularly used as roster filler, I almost always forget they're even there; why should I play as a Wiggler or a Lakitu when cool boss characters like Petey Piranha and Dry Bowser are right there? Having a generic enemy on the roster for variety and/or a laugh can be fun - I actually like what Mario Party 8 did by having both of its new mooks be unlockable - but I wouldn't want a Super Mario Party situation where you have a bunch of cool and memorable characters next to a Koopa, a Dry Bones, a Boo, a Shy Guy, a Monty Mole, a Hammer Bro, and a Goomba, for instance. It's one of those things where if you can do better, you absolutely should IMO.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly, I didn't warm up to Pirahna Plant until like... Wonder.

I love Petey Pirahna, but even among Mario enemies, Pirahna Plant was just... there.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

PP was a fun option in general because I like playing as general Mooks/Enemies.

Giving them a tad more personality or defining them is more than awesome too. I've roleplayed as tons of various Mooks and Enemies for fun, so it's really easy for me to get into the concept of a playable Species. Stuff like LEGO Star Wars also helps this, as it has general Soldiers too. Pokemon partially has this since none of the Species are defined outside of spin-off materials(as well as the Manga and Anime), with a tiny set of exceptions(like Mythicals and Legendaries can be). But even then, this stood out as a new option because it didn't have a defining specific member. It was a collaboration of various ones.

Also, to look back at what was said; Nostalgia is a very powerful thing. You can have nostalgia for pretty much any kind of character, generic one or otherwise. They are important to you because it's your experience. Enjoying them is perfectly fine and it's kind of silly to gatekeep that kind of stuff. So what if they aren't a fan favorite or whatever? You don't get to decide what people like nor should you. That doesn't mean such a character is some obvious one for Smash or likely to get in either way. But the point is that there's no reason to act silly about it. You don't find them interesting? That's perfectly fair. Some do. And you should respect that.

 

[AlRex]

I personally would think Goomba is worth it simply for basically being THE video game enemy, aside from the Pac-Man ghosts and Space Invaders. There’s enough permutations that they’d have good moveset potential, too, much like Plant. Plus they’d be pretty unique with their…hand-less-ness.

 

[Pupp135]

I was kind of indifferent to Piranha Plant when it was first added in Ultimate, but it has warmed up to me over time. Also, I thought its role in Peach’s Birthday Cake was funny in an unexpected kind of way.

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[Wario Wario Wario]

For me, I simply think generic enemies aren't as cool in the vast majority of cases as named ones. Even in, like, Mario Kart where enemies are regularly used as roster filler, I almost always forget they're even there; why should I play as a Wiggler or a Lakitu when cool boss characters like Petey Piranha and Dry Bowser are right there? Having a generic enemy on the roster for variety and/or a laugh can be fun - I actually like what Mario Party 8 did by having both of its new mooks be unlockable - but I wouldn't want a Super Mario Party situation where you have a bunch of cool and memorable characters next to a Koopa, a Dry Bones, a Boo, a Shy Guy, a Monty Mole, a Hammer Bro, and a Goomba, for instance. It's one of those things where if you can do better, you absolutely should IMO.

To me, boss characters aren't as cool or "better" than mooks, I think you're speaking in objective language about a situation which is VERY subjective. I don't get how hard it is to understand: I don't like cool and powerful, I like weak and feeble.

 

[Lenidem]

Also, to look back at what was said; Nostalgia is a very powerful thing. You can have nostalgia for pretty much any kind of character, generic one or otherwise. They are important to you because it's your experience. Enjoying them is perfectly fine and it's kind of silly to gatekeep that kind of stuff. So what if they aren't a fan favorite or whatever? You don't get to decide what people like nor should you. That doesn't mean such a character is some obvious one for Smash or likely to get in either way. But the point is that there's no reason to act silly about it. You don't find them interesting? That's perfectly fair. Some do. And you should respect that.

Who said the opposite?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Who said the opposite?

I don't know how I'm supposed to interpet these if not as "liking Goomba is invalid, you're just weird", it's pretty clearly a value judgement on mook fandom as a whole and not mooks as Smash characters:

Because most of us just want to play with the characters we associate the most with fond memories, and they tend to be main characters.

Is it really hard to understand that most people would rather play Lara Croft than a random warrior-monk, or as Waluigi rather than a Goomba?

As for the rest, when most people think of the Mario games, the first character that come to their mind is Mario. Then maybe Luigi, or Bowser or Peach. When they think about Zelda, they first think about Link and Zelda, and Ganondorf. And so on. Those are the character you spend the most time playing as, you control them, you identifiy to them. Or they are the ultimate goal, the one that justifies the whole journey, that gives the adventure it's raison d'être. The mooks? You see them a lot, yes, and they also are important in their own way. But once you jumped over a Goomba, you move on and forget instantly about it. The Goomba is just a moving part of the stage, not that different from the blocks you breaks or the moving plates-formes. Mooks are by nature ephemeral, while main characters are durable.

My specific wording was "Why do Smash fans hate generic enemies", not "Why don't Smash fans want generic enemies" - I was specifically questioning the response when the idea is brought up, not the lack of demand.

 

[Lenidem]

I don't know how I'm supposed to interpet these if not as "liking Goomba is invalid, you're just weird", it's pretty clearly a value judgement on mook fandom as a whole and not mooks as Smash characters:


My specific wording was "Why do Smash fans hate generic enemies", not "Why don't Smash fans want generic enemies" - I was specifically questioning the response when the idea is brought up, not the lack of demand.

Dude, even we were "hating" your favorite character, that wouldn't mean that we hate and judge you. Nobody here said that wanting mooks is "invalid". Besides, nobody here said anything hateful about Goomba. Most people just think that it shouldn't be playable in Smash. That's all.

If you feel personnaly attacked every time somebody says they don't want the thing that you want, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Ze Diglett]

To me, boss characters aren't as cool or "better" than mooks, I think you're speaking in objective language about a situation which is VERY subjective. I don't get how hard it is to understand: I don't like cool and powerful, I like weak and feeble.

Strength isn't even a factor to me, there's just more to get behind with Petey Piranha next to the garden variety Piranha Plant. I've seen the former in plenty of games I like and observed how the same character has evolved (or stayed the same!) in neat ways. I'm not gonna feel that same connection to the concept of a Piranha Plant; there definitionally is no character to follow. Even if you like "weak and feeble," surely there's a better way to satisfy that than a character who doesn't have a name?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Strength isn't even a factor to me, there's just more to get behind with Petey Piranha next to the garden variety Piranha Plant. I've seen the former in plenty of games I like and observed how the same character has evolved (or stayed the same!) in neat ways. I'm not gonna feel that same connection to the concept of a Piranha Plant; there definitionally is no character to follow. Even if you like "weak and feeble," surely there's a better way to satisfy that than a character who doesn't have a name?

To me, the idea of playing as something that is essentially little more (or even less) than a random, insignificant animal is appealing - it's not the only type of character I enjoy of course, but I think the prospect is quite unique and interesting no matter the game or genre. I think this is just an agree-to-disagree situation, you're less saying "putting in mooks is a bad idea", at least from how I'm reading this statement, and more "I personally don't like mooks", and that's kinda the whole point of allowing multiple-character selection in a game.

 

[Lenidem]

To me, the idea of playing as something that is essentially little more (or even less) than a random, insignificant animal is appealing - it's not the only type of character I enjoy of course, but I think the prospect is quite unique and interesting no matter the game or genre. I think this is just an agree-to-disagree situation, you're less saying "putting in mooks is a bad idea", at least from how I'm reading this statement, and more "I personally don't like mooks", and that's kinda the whole point of allowing multiple-character selection in a game.

My opinion would be "I personally think that putting in mooks is a bad idea". I hope it's acceptable for you.

 

[Laniv]

WRT Mario enemies: if it were up to me, I would have gone for Lakitu or a pair of Hammer Bros.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I like Piranha Plant. It's one of my most used characters in Ultimate.


I don't want things like Piranha Plant to ever become the norm. That would cheapen the appeal.

 

[AlRex]

I like Piranha Plant. It's one of my most used characters in Ultimate.


I don't want things like Piranha Plant to ever become the norm. That would cheapen the appeal.

This is also true. Albeit, at the same time, for reasons I said before, Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Slime, Chocobo, Moogle, Space Invaders, the Pac-Man Ghosts, these would be worthwhile inclusions, IMO. But for differing reasons than the sudden Piranha Plant shock value, I suppose.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

A few days ago (probably a string of days), I got responded to two seperate opinions about Smash with "that would break immersion", and I find that response really weird (even if one user who said this simply suggested it as an example of a counter-argument and not because they believed it) but in a way, I think it actually kinda helps me get the words out for what I from Smash tonally - I've always used "kiddy", but I think a more accurate word would be "campy" - lovingly dumb, completely lacking prestiege, and creative decisions based all in fun and laughter - very much how Smash 64 did it. "kiddy" doesn't align with how I want Smash's roster to be, I like M-rated characters; I want characters from older games; and I think "scrimblo first" logic is stupid, but "campy" I think does align with how I want Smash's roster. I want a game where Motobug can beat up Kratos, that's camp, right?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'd love to see a mechanic of fighter specific assist characters in the next Smash. Essentially an optional alternative to the Final Smash where each fighter in the game could summon a non-fighter character they're associated with to help them in some fashion for the battle. So a Donkey Kong could have Cranky, Luigi with E Gadd, Kirby with Gooey, etc. Now I'm aware of the practical obstacles for this:

-Balancing fighters with the various assist characters would be remarkably tricky
-Certain figures don't as easily lend themselves to series specific assists (who's helping Mr. Game & Watch exactly?)
-Many fans would be disappointed with certain preferred fighters ending up as character assists
-Trying to make every single assist unique would be tough so overlap in what they do would be inevitable
-There's the question of many resources would have to be put to it to make the concept worth it
-It's something that would not be relevant in competitive play

But if it was done right and the assists were largely made up of associated characters that likely wouldn't end up as fighters anyway, I think there's real potential for some fun uses of it. Just seeing a Roll appear to help Mega Man or a Maria being the critical difference for Richter in a battle has a value all its own.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'd love to see a mechanic of fighter specific assist characters in the next Smash. Essentially an optional alternative to the Final Smash where each fighter in the game could summon a non-fighter character they're associated with to help them in some fashion for the battle. So a Donkey Kong could have Cranky, Luigi with E Gadd, Kirby with Gooey, etc. Now I'm aware of the practical obstacles for this:

-Balancing fighters with the various assist characters would be remarkably tricky
-Certain figures don't as easily lend themselves to series specific assists (who's helping Mr. Game & Watch exactly?)
-Many fans would be disappointed with certain preferred fighters ending up as character assists
-Trying to make every single assist unique would be tough so overlap in what they do would be inevitable
-There's the question of many resources would have to be put to it to make the concept worth it
-It's something that would not be relevant in competitive play

But if it was done right and the assists were largely made up of associated characters that likely wouldn't end up as fighters anyway, I think there's real potential for some fun uses of it. Just seeing a Roll appear to help Mega Man or a Maria being the critical difference for Richter in a battle has a value all its own.

Fraymakers did this really well - assists are selectable rather than tied to a character, and = something I really adore - all playable characters also have assist versions.

 

[fogbadge]

Spyro should totally get in before Crash

 

[Perkilator]

I know I always go on about how Rayman should’ve been a DLC fighter in Sm4sh (which I truly do think he should’ve), but honestly? The Last Story and Pandora’s Tower should’ve gotten DLC fighters in Sm4sh as well. For how significant of a role Operation Rainfall played in getting those two games localized as well as Xenoblade, I think the former two games should’ve gotten the same kind of chance as the latter game.

 

[UserKev]

I still don't like the idea of Smash having cross generational bosses. By cross generation I mean cross world myltiple bosses, Marx, Ganon, Ridley, etc. Third party should definitely not have bosses. I feel like they throw off the flow and immersion. I miss when Smash did its own thing with Master Hand.

 

[Laniv]

Smash 4's philosophy of every character needing to be as unique as possible ended up working to that game's detriment

 

[StormC]

Smash 4's philosophy of every character needing to be as unique as possible ended up working to that game's detriment

Agreed. I found a lot of the Smash 4 playstyles unintuitive. Ultimate's newcomers, overall, felt easier to just pick up and play, with a few exceptions like Steve.

 

[Mamboo07]

I still don't like the idea of Smash having cross generational bosses. By cross generation I mean cross world myltiple bosses, Marx, Ganon, Ridley, etc. Third party should definitely not have bosses. I feel like they throw off the flow and immersion. I miss when Smash did its own thing with Master Hand.

...Cross what?

 

[fogbadge]

...Cross what?

I think they meant they prefer it when it was just smash original bosses

 

[BritishGuy54]

I think they meant they prefer it when it was just smash original bosses

I honestly feel the opposite right now. Apart from the Hands and an original final boss, I’d rather have bosses from existing Nintendo games.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I like the idea of Smash bosses only being original on paper - as well as the idea of an Amingo style character - but because Smash handles the tone of original content so weirdly, I'd rather they just use existing characters.

 

[Mamboo07]

I think they meant they prefer it when it was just smash original bosses

Oh yeah, that.

Tabuu is one example.

 

[UserKev]

I like the idea of Smash bosses only being original on paper - as well as the idea of an Amingo style character - but because Smash handles the tone of original content so weirdly, I'd rather they just use existing characters.

Yes! I love how you worded it. Something like Event Matches. I love the idea of using existing characters as references. Have Metal/Giant Mario etc end up as a boss of Classic Mode. Use existing characters but give them special buffs and size differences even.

 

[Louie G.]

Smash 4's philosophy of every character needing to be as unique as possible ended up working to that game's detriment

Well we're definitely still feeling the ripples. I think moreso than working against the game itself though, this trend has led fans to have less appreciation for more subtle mechanics and letting certain archetypes speak for themselves.

Thankfully Ultimate base game felt like a bit of a course correction - Ridley, K. Rool, Simon and Incineroar are all extremely dynamic without needing to overcompensate. K. Rool's belly armor is wonderfully effective in being something unique to him, but not forcing you to play an entirely different game. Incineroar is just a straight up grappler, about as pure of an archetypical exploration as Smash gets. And it's great. Inkling has its resource management gimmick, but like... sure, it kinda has to. Even Isabelle, despite being a semiclone, has the Fishing Rod which is a pretty unique command grab tool.

For better or worse DLC largely rescinded back into these old tricks, but I think they were able to hone in on some of them better than Smash 4. It also led to some of the craziest character designs the series has ever seen, but I digress lol. I will always admire Smash's creativity and I quite enjoy even a lot of the wildest characters, but there are moments where I wonder if we could have toned it down a couple notches.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I think part of the problem with modern Smash movesets is that it's trying to create characters with overall unique gameplans, instead of creating unique moves that change up an established archetype. Something low-key like Maypul's down air (a projectile that comes out of the ground), Frallan's forward air (a move that sends foes propelling backwards), NASB1 Garfield's Pooky (projectile that goes back to its user) or NASB2 Rocksteady's down grounded strong (a chargeable attack that keeps you floating in place over moving platforms while it charges) is way more interesting to me than another meter, extra inputs, or even the (well-executed, mind you) Rivals character gimmicks, even if they're harder to put in a trailer.

 

[MasterCheef]

All the current 3rd party reps , with the exception of ( King K. Rool ) because he originated within a Nintendo game , should NOT move forward into SSB6.

Most folks care more about their popularity than their game-play. Steve & Kazuya are the exceptions. People like their game-play more than they care about popularity. Steve is waay to annoyingly defensive in his game-play & ( touch of death ) characters are no fun.

 

[Louie G.]

All the current 3rd party reps , with the exception of ( King K. Rool ) because he originated within a Nintendo game , should NOT move forward into SSB6.

You said a lot of arguable things, but this one can be disputed objectively. King K. Rool is a first party character. He’s had a trophy in every game from Melee to Smash 4, if you want further evidence.

 

[MasterCheef]

King K. Rool is a first party character. He’s had a trophy in every game from Melee to Smash 4, if you want further evidence.

Good this just makes me happy K.Rool is likely to stay.

Now i know I hate all of the 3rd party playable reps in SSBU.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Smash 4's philosophy of every character needing to be as unique as possible ended up working to that game's detriment

Not too sure honestly. In Smash Ultimate it's way easier to pick up and play a character, especially from an archetype you're already used to. Say swordfighters, picking up another swordfighter becomes much easier. Smash 4 had the perfect roster size to have these sorts of unique playstyles, but yeah it becomes harder with a game as big as Ultimate. Hence I really supported semi clone characters in Smash 4 being included, cause relatively they'd end up being more unique anyway.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As out there as it is, I think I'd be down for more cross franchise echo characters/clones ala Captain Falcon/Ganondoff. I know they'd have to be remarkably on point to make sense, but there's a creativity to the concept that feels like it could be fun to have more of in the series.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

The fact that nobody ever brings up Splatoon (particularly the idols) or Animal Crossing in Smash speculation feels less like someone adamantly insiting "the sky is not blue" and moreso like watching in anticipation as an alien that has crash landed on Earth at night is about to find out that the sky is blue.

 

[fogbadge]

The fact that nobody ever brings up Splatoon (particularly the idols) or Animal Crossing in Smash speculation feels less like someone adamantly insiting "the sky is not blue" and moreso like watching in anticipation as an alien that has crash landed on Earth at night is about to find out that the sky is blue.

we do on this forum

 

[Mamboo07]

The fact that nobody ever brings up Splatoon (particularly the idols) or Animal Crossing in Smash speculation

They do bring these up.

Octoling and Tom Nook for example

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

The approach Smash Ultimate takes to implementing music, having hundreds of songs all from each series pulled almost directly from their sources, is a valid approach but has issues. It feels like it devalues original remixes, especially ones that change the genre of the song, and medleys. In fact both of those types of songs are jarring being in Ultimate when the game is so focused on adding a ton of songs as close as possible to how they sound in their original games and seem grandfather’d in to me.