Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Champion of Hyrule]

Iterative sequels are dumb because they remove any reason to play the last game. Unless you're a doorstop collector, all you're left with is one less cake when you could have two.

I agree that I don’t like the mindset where people say the original game is obsolete once a sequel comes out. But at the same time, sequels that are “more of the same” of the original still have different level design and challenges to them. There’s a reason to go back to the original because it’s a different set of levels.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I agree that I don’t like the mindset where people say the original game is obsolete once a sequel comes out. But at the same time, sequels that are “more of the same” of the original still have different level design and challenges to them. There’s a reason to go back to the original because it’s a different set of levels.

I was referring pretty much exclusively to multiplayer or community-based games. I've never seen someone say that about a single player game.

 

[RileyXY1]

I agree that I don’t like the mindset where people say the original game is obsolete once a sequel comes out. But at the same time, sequels that are “more of the same” of the original still have different level design and challenges to them. There’s a reason to go back to the original because it’s a different set of levels.

This can also be seen in Smash. Each game has its own unique content so no game really replaces the last.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

If "characters aren't just interchangable functions", then why does objective reasoning matter to MWs whatsoever? If "Decidueye should be in because he's an archer", shouldn't you be able to settle for Aloy, modern Lara Croft, or one of the many gaming iterations of Apollo (Cheetahman included)? If "Banjo should be in because he used to be a Nintendo character", why are Layton and Tetromino being overlooked? I don't think there's an inherent shame in wanting a character just because you like them, it's certainly preferable to trying to game Smash's status as a external-series-reviver/changer, hell most but not all of my MWs are just "I like the character" (Bubsy is my big one - I wouldn't accept Meowth in place of Bubsy because "slashing snarky cat" isn't really the idea, but I would accept Reznor in place of Rambi or Rayquaza in place of Onix since those are to some degree function picks based simply on "rhino body shape" or "giant snake body shape", with those specific characters being my cosmetic/character preferance, same with interchaning Goomba for someone like Motobug or non-bandana Waddle Dee as that pick is rooted in "More weak level 1 mooks" and Goomba being my character preferance from that selection), but I think it's dumb to claim reasons that aren't there and open yourself up to criticisms you simply do not have the means nor reason to respond to.

 

[fogbadge]

If "Banjo should be in because he used to be a Nintendo character", why are Layton and Tetromino being overlooked?

Layton has never been a nintendo character

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Layton has never been a nintendo character

Not owned, but I certainly remember Layton getting the same prominence in Nintendo marketing materials at the height of his popularity that Banjo got when he was a Nintendo character - it's a Conker situation, distribution and some strange attribution in marketing. Maybe that was just a UK thing, I dunno.

 

[fogbadge]

Not owned, but I certainly remember Layton getting the same prominence in Nintendo marketing materials at the height of his popularity that Banjo got when he was a Nintendo character - it's a Conker situation, distribution and some strange attribution in marketing. Maybe that was just a UK thing, I dunno.

I'm well aware of that. but he was never owned by nintendo. unlike B&K or the wonderful 101

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Sonic having two near-identical moves is terrible for Sonic, the speedy rushdown type, but for a more tactical, slow character it could be a really fun move concept.

Impossible to depend the Min Min approach of "one missing special" though.

 

[AlRex]

On the character/function thing, I think there’s a balance between it. It’s the “Nintendo and eventually some other video games” fighter, so that general field can hold some bearing, some could get in for function, some could get in for character, but also think about what said character has to offer and how to express it.

Characters matter to some degree, otherwise, why even bother with making a “dream match” fighting game about Nintendo characters, and not just the Dragon King prototype with the blank 3D models? (That itself could be potentially interesting if you had each of the other characters be different general shapes while retaining that sort of aesthetic, but that’s a different subject.)

That said, I’m completely for unconventional picks, from a “representation” standpoint and a “function” standpoint, as well. A lot of “safe” picks tread on some similar grounds to what’s already on the roster, aside from maybe a few. I guess I’m interested in “novelty” in some’s eyes, but I do like variety to a degree, distinction, sometimes name value, but prioritize the “names” and some obscure ones that substantially add. What that is is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[UserKev]

I'm still annoyed at Smash's first level and overworld theme inclusions as of late. I want Smash to go back to the more upbeat traditional theme style in Smash 64/Melee. Bomb-Omb battle field, Lost Woods, etc is so repetitive.

Hot take. Smash needs a decrease in the number of tracks. Having gone back and remembered how much tracks Sakurai implanted from King of Fighters, yeah. We really don't need all that. Less tracks would do more wonders. Smash really needs to get away from all this bloat.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'm still annoyed at Smash's first level and overworld theme inclusions as of late. I want Smash to go back to the more upbeat traditional theme style in Smash 64/Melee. Bomb-Omb battle field, Lost Woods, etc is so repetitive.

Hot take. Smash needs a decrease in the number of tracks. Having gone back and remembered how much tracks Sakurai implanted from King of Fighters, yeah. We really don't need all that. Less tracks would do more wonders. Smash really needs to get away from all this bloat.

Even as Mr. Quality Over Quantity, I don't see how more songs is a bad thing. Perhaps less remixes and a focus on unmodified tracks could have some upsides, but I think song quantity is basically harmless, adds a welcome level of cosmetic customisation, and dud songs are welcome - I'm quite partial to 25M BGM myself. It's not like the musician making Animal Crossing Amiibo Festival Medley or whatever would have the same skill-set required to develop playable Waluigi or calculate balanced wavedash lengths.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Enjoy your ewaste I guess? I really don't know how to respond, why would you want less options for engaging with a series.

A nonsensical correlation. How does getting more games = less options. It's not like time and memories from previous games were meaningless and will suddenly disappear. Moving on from certain games after getting your fill is normal

Should things never improve or what?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

A nonsensical correlation. How does getting more games = less options. It's not like time and memories from previous games were meaningless and will suddenly disappear. Moving on from certain games after getting your fill is normal

Should things never improve or what?

You know I mean less options in the present day, right? Nothing about memories or nostalgia. If anything I'm talking about people who discovered a series with the latest iteration, not long-time fans. I grew up on 64, Melee, and Brawl concurrently and never had a particular preferance (though now I'm older I do)

 

[Nabbitfan730]

You know I mean less options in the present day, right? Nothing about memories or nostalgia. If anything I'm talking about people who discovered a series with the latest iteration, not long-time fans. I grew up on 64, Melee, and Brawl concurrently and never had a particular preferance (though now I'm older I do)

Nothing from stopping from going back from present day either but eventually i will get tired on same game and would like to move on. New fans going to back the classics will do out of curiosity of history/novelty factor regardless of being iterative.

All Smash games are iterative in many degrees but didn't stop from many going back. Heck, even i have went back to Brawl/S4 couple of times despite my preference to SSBU

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Nothing from stopping from going back from present day either but eventually i will get tired on same game and would like to move on

If I had got burned out from a game and wanted to "move on", I'd just... find a different game. Not play "the same but more", hell I wouldn't even play a non-iterative s/prequel in that context. I'd go for a different genre outright.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

"the same but more"

If you see that way. *similar concepts but improved is my definition

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I think one of the biggest appeals of the Smash series in terms of design and artistic direction is the fact that all of the characters and the like within the games fit together reasonably cohesively despite being from such different backgrounds. As cool as it is in concept to "represent the source material", part of the appeal of Smash is that the playable characters are recontextualised to work within the confines of the game, and that's kind of being lost.

This is to say, I think that as funny as it is that Steve sticks out like a sore thumb amongst the roster in terms of appearance, it would probably have made significantly more sense to render him in a simplified appearance more akin to his look in marketing and cover art since the early 2010s, both in terms of working better along with the rest of the cast but also just to make his inclusion feel a little less... gimmicky?

Actually, on a related note; I wouldn't be against future entries in the Smash series leaning into a greater degree of stylisation, so long as it were consistent amongst the entire cast. Something akin to how, for example, Strikers handles the redesigns of the Mario cast while still maintaining the visual identity and character of the characters, and keeping them recognisable despite changes in appearance.

 

[MartianSnake]

I think one of the biggest appeals of the Smash series in terms of design and artistic direction is the fact that all of the characters and the like within the games fit together reasonably cohesively despite being from such different backgrounds. As cool as it is in concept to "represent the source material", part of the appeal of Smash is that the playable characters are recontextualised to work within the confines of the game, and that's kind of being lost.

This is to say, I think that as funny as it is that Steve sticks out like a sore thumb amongst the roster in terms of appearance, it would probably have made significantly more sense to render him in a simplified appearance more akin to his look in marketing and cover art since the early 2010s, both in terms of working better along with the rest of the cast but also just to make his inclusion feel a little less... gimmicky?

Him standing out has always felt like the point to me. I think it's fine that there's one character that sticks out like a sore thumb

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I like the idea of Smash with a consistent art style, but Strikers is NOT the way to go about it. I've made my disdain for edgy Smash very clear by now.

 

[FazDude]

Probably less of an extreme than a Strikers-styled Smash, but a Smash game that committed more to Smash 3DS' artstyle (cel-shaded bold outlines, brighter colors, etc) with more processing power would be really cool.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think one of the biggest appeals of the Smash series in terms of design and artistic direction is the fact that all of the characters and the like within the games fit together reasonably cohesively despite being from such different backgrounds. As cool as it is in concept to "represent the source material", part of the appeal of Smash is that the playable characters are recontextualised to work within the confines of the game, and that's kind of being lost.

This is to say, I think that as funny as it is that Steve sticks out like a sore thumb amongst the roster in terms of appearance, it would probably have made significantly more sense to render him in a simplified appearance more akin to his look in marketing and cover art since the early 2010s, both in terms of working better along with the rest of the cast but also just to make his inclusion feel a little less... gimmicky?

Actually, on a related note; I wouldn't be against future entries in the Smash series leaning into a greater degree of stylisation, so long as it were consistent amongst the entire cast. Something akin to how, for example, Strikers handles the redesigns of the Mario cast while still maintaining the visual identity and character of the characters, and keeping them recognisable despite changes in appearance.

Tbh Smash as a whole cannot mesh well with just 64's roster in terms of art styles, you get slightly cartoony Ness and Mario Bros, the fantasy elf Link, the sci fi bounty hunter who wears power armour to fight H.R Giger monsters and the futuristic dude who just looks like a superhero, to me it's like, if nobody is unified to a specific art style, then all characters end up unified by their lack of it. Not that a unified art style is bad but Brawl trying to go for realism while still having the cartoon animals still made a contrast so might as well go all in on the whole 'bunch of different toys in the box mashed together' style like idk, action figures and plushies of all sorts of shows, if that makes sense

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I think one of the biggest appeals of the Smash series in terms of design and artistic direction is the fact that all of the characters and the like within the games fit together reasonably cohesively despite being from such different backgrounds. As cool as it is in concept to "represent the source material", part of the appeal of Smash is that the playable characters are recontextualised to work within the confines of the game, and that's kind of being lost.

This is to say, I think that as funny as it is that Steve sticks out like a sore thumb amongst the roster in terms of appearance, it would probably have made significantly more sense to render him in a simplified appearance more akin to his look in marketing and cover art since the early 2010s, both in terms of working better along with the rest of the cast but also just to make his inclusion feel a little less... gimmicky?

Personally I honestly don’t really see what rendering him in a more simplified way would accomplish. Steve’s animations in Smash are made up of simple, short movements already and I don’t really see what simplifying him would do besides less pixels on the texture on his model.

I also think most of the marketing material of the early 2010s that tries to make Steve more expressive just feels uncanny to me. They often try to give his movements more depth and expression and it looks weird to me when he’s a block man.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Him standing out has always felt like the point to me. I think it's fine that there's one character that sticks out like a sore thumb

Fine if it was only the design that stood out like a sore thumb yeah. Not the entire move set too.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Actually, on a related note; I wouldn't be against future entries in the Smash series leaning into a greater degree of stylisation, so long as it were consistent amongst the entire cast. Something akin to how, for example, Strikers handles the redesigns of the Mario cast while still maintaining the visual identity and character of the characters, and keeping them recognisable despite changes in appearance.

I don't see the need to use Strikers as a means to justify stylization, since it's a bit too extreme an example. The best option to see this in motion is actually the first three Smash titles.

Spoiler: Smash 64

Spoiler: Melee

Spoiler: Brawl

Even among the wide array of Smash character origins, all three examples support a general art style unique to each Smash game's presentation. Sure, you can argue that the art style waned somewhat in Brawl, but at least it still tried. Like many modern problems within Smash, this whole art style clash only really came to light after Smash 4, when they abandoned the cohesion altogether.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't see the need to use Strikers as a means to justify stylization, since it's a bit too extreme an example. The best option to see this in motion is actually the first three Smash titles.

Spoiler: Smash 64

View attachment 397625

Spoiler: Melee

View attachment 397626

Spoiler: Brawl

View attachment 397627

Even among the wide array of Smash character origins, all three examples support a general art style unique to each Smash game's presentation. Sure, you can argue that the art style waned somewhat in Brawl, but at least it still tried. Like many modern problems within Smash, this whole art style clash only really came to light after Smash 4, when they abandoned the cohesion altogether.

I really don't see your point here, the human characters in the 64 art all have distinctly different styles for their faces, not to mention this is not how they look like in the game at all. Melee once again has them inconsistent with each other and Brawl's more realistic style I would argue still has the cast stand out from contrast once you have them all togwther like that, again, the human characters look very different. If you consider the lack of cohesion among the cast's looks a problem, it certainly isn't a modern one

 

[Oracle Link]

Mario, out of anyone, should probably have the Ground Pound. But I think at this point it becomes kind of a question of freshness... is it that exciting to give Mario a move that a bunch of other characters already have some variation of? You already have the general idea covered through Yoshi, Bowser, and Kirby in a more abstract way just in respect to a quickly plummeting special attack.

To be fair I think Mario can at least get away with having more "generic" moves as a character who is essentially supposed to cover the scope of Smash's gameplay to begin with. Giving him a fast fall move gets you acquainted with a common feature in the game... but that's to imply Kirby isn't also something of a "tutorial" character who has the same thing. When factoring in canon it's no question, it's one of the biggest absences in his moveset. But putting it in the context of Smash, it's a little underwhelming and derivative on its own. I don't know how I feel about it overall.

I think my approach would be that Mario's Ground Pound gives him an extra bounce when he makes contact, more spiritually similar to how he attacks in the RPGs, just so you give him a unique quality that these other attacks don't have and you get to further emphasize one of Mario's most important core abilities. Which is, yknow, bouncing on people's heads. But even then you have Greninja and the Belmonts who can effectively do the same.

Yeah
Smash Mario is probably the most underwhelming of the Smash 4! (Mario, Link, Kirby and Pikachu)
Pikachu is just a pokemon so the moveset doesnt matter too much!
Kirby and Link are mostly perfect!
And then theres MArio whos just... fine.
MArio you know mr. Videogame shouldnt be stuck with one of 3d Abilitys TBH!
Give him The Tanooki Tail, Spin, Fire Ball, Groundpound, Maybe a mega mushroom or star as final smash!?
Like i get the temptation of adding cappy but i hate the "lets just add stuff from the newest game" Mindset for longrunning PRotgaonists!

It fine for someone like peach or zelda who only have like 1 or 2 own games to pull from... But not for mario, link or kirby!

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I really don't see your point here, the human characters in the 64 art all have distinctly different styles for their faces, not to mention this is not how they look like in the game at all. Melee once again has them inconsistent with each other and Brawl's more realistic style I would argue still has the cast stand out from contrast once you have them all togwther like that, again, the human characters look very different. If you consider the lack of cohesion among the cast's looks a problem, it certainly isn't a modern one

I wasn't exclusively looking at the faces of the humanoids when referring to art style decisions. There are probably many inconsistencies when it comes to stylizing those characters amongst each other's franchises. But I feel like, at base value, most of the character designs were built with trying to transition the style differences into Smash as much as possible. I doubt the philosophy has ever been flawlessly executed, but it may as well have waned to nothingness at this rate.

might as well go all in on the whole 'bunch of different toys in the box mashed together' style like idk, action figures and plushies of all sorts of shows, if that makes sense

I will admit, I wish I had seen this post earlier, because this is a good point. If they intend for Smash to keep throwing mishmash designs into the general franchise, they might as well go all in with it as an art style.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Mario Strikers never really even had a distinct art style - all the character models were just the regular GCN/early Wii Mario models with different outfits and extra facial expressions.

 

[UserKev]

I don't know about artstyle anymore. It seems Smash has done every cohesive art style. There's more room for tones tho. I want a Smash with an eerie tone like Paper Mario.

Smash 64 was more a carefree cartoon tone. Melee was the hardcore edgy early 2000s tone and retro. Brawl was the dystopia tone and Smash 4 is.. idk. Happy?

If you asked me, Smash should be a crossover of every character placed into a Mario game. Have them match the Super Mario Bros. Anesthetic in calmness. And stage play portrayal.

 

[MartianSnake]

I don't know about artstyle anymore. It seems Smash has done every cohesive art style. There's more room for tones tho. I want a Smash with an eerie tone like Paper Mario.

Smash 64 was more a carefree cartoon tone. Melee was the hardcore edgy early 2000s tone and retro. Brawl was the dystopia tone and Smash 4 is.. idk. Happy?

If you asked me, Smash should be a crossover of every character placed into a Mario game. Have them match the Super Mario Bros. Anesthetic in calmness. And stage play portrayal.

Since when was Paper Mario eerie? Sure each games have moments of that but it's not the most defining aspect

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't know about artstyle anymore. It seems Smash has done every cohesive art style. There's more room for tones tho. I want a Smash with an eerie tone like Paper Mario.

Smash 64 was more a carefree cartoon tone. Melee was the hardcore edgy early 2000s tone and retro. Brawl was the dystopia tone and Smash 4 is.. idk. Happy?

If you asked me, Smash should be a crossover of every character placed into a Mario game. Have them match the Super Mario Bros. Anesthetic in calmness. And stage play portrayal.

I agree with the last sentence (unless you're implying a majority Mario content, a little vague, though I think that'd be kinda neat if Smash were a new series), but I don't really get what you're talking about with either "eerie Paper Mario" or "eerie Smash".

 

[UserKev]

Since when was Paper Mario eerie? Sure each games have moments of that but it's not the most defining aspect

I couldn't have said it better. That's exactly what I'm saying.

I agree with the last sentence (unless you're implying a majority Mario content, a little vague, though I think that'd be kinda neat if Smash were a new series), but I don't really get what you're talking about with either "eerie Paper Mario" or "eerie Smash".

If a game has eerie moments, the eerie is always there despite how colorful it may seem. That's what I mean or I will say now I do. Probably shouldn't have mentioned Paper Mario or any example

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

It's a crying shame this song was relegated to regionally-specific advertising instead of being used as Ultimate's primary theme. It's the most fitting theme for Smash's maximalist silliness since 64's intro, and a localised version could have a lot of fun with an equivalent wordplay.

 

[Garo]

While some characters may stand out, having a general cohesion between most of them is clearly the goal (Sakurai made a whole video about it):

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

There's probably many reasons to aim for a middle-ground between cartoony and realistic rather than either extreme, but I would personally like to see the next Smash go for a more stylized look, something like the upcoming Garou: City of the Wolves. Smash 4 already had less saturated colors and bold outlines while Ultimate's fire, smoke, explosion etc. effects have a comic book-esque 2d look, so I think it's still possible they might go in that direction next.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

This is a really stupid thing to have any kind of opinion on, entirely hypothetical with no basis in reality whatsoever, not unpopular as much as comically niche, but...

Mario would be a really dumb first Nintendo rep if another company developed Smash. I honestly can't really imagine Mario in any other role than a beginner character, which would certainly already be taken, without getting weird and gimmicky with some kind of power-up stance system or going into "Mario 64 star collect up smash" mode.

Donkey Kong, Link, any G1 Pokemon, Villager/Isabelle, and Duck Hunt all feel like better picks to me when weighing both moveset and iconic factor.

 

[Opossum]

This is a really stupid thing to have any kind of opinion on, entirely hypothetical with no basis in reality whatsoever, not unpopular as much as comically niche, but...

Mario would be a really dumb first Nintendo rep if another company developed Smash. I honestly can't really imagine Mario in any other role than a beginner character, which would certainly already be taken, without getting weird and gimmicky with some kind of power-up stance system or going into "Mario 64 star collect up smash" mode.

Donkey Kong, Link, any G1 Pokemon, Villager/Isabelle, and Duck Hunt all feel like better picks to me when weighing both moveset and iconic factor.

To engage with the hypothetical a bit, I actually do think there's an angle they could go for that's worth pursuing that isn't just "the beginner character."

I think it's equally valid to have Mario be portrayed as a brawler with really good jumps and recovery, which leads to a natural focus on aerial attacks. His incarnation in Smash 4 and Ultimate already lean a bit into this, with his up tilt chains leading into up air chains. There's a built-in verticality there that helps solidify the character as a, well, Jump Man. This can go even further by giving him the Cap Toss/Cap Dive as a new side special to give him both another combo tool AND a stronger horizontal recovery, and even the Galaxy Homing Stomp as a smash input down air as a combo finisher to bring the foe back down to the ground as a drag-and-drop. If they wanted to be cute they could even make his footstool jumps do damage.

This is actually something I'd love to see Smash do for him in future games. It keeps him beginner-friendly while also, in my eyes, solidifying his Smash playstyle while giving him some more versatility and style points.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I would happily sacrifice or simplify Kirby's copy abilities if it meant true interchangable cosmetic hats/backpacks/e.t.c. in Smash.

 

[E-Solz]

Yes: king k rools Helicopter animation family makes sense

 

[PlasmaDam]

This is probably a dead horse but I think Most chracthers in smash don't need full reworks aside from like maybe 5 or 6 chracthers.
And I think Sonic moveset is perfectly fine aside from Side b and down b being to similar replace one of them with something new and Sonic is good to go

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

This is probably a dead horse but I think Most chracthers in smash don't need full reworks aside from like maybe 5 or 6 chracthers.
And I think Sonic moveset is perfectly fine aside from Side b and down b being to similar replace one of them with something new and Sonic is good to go

I think a bit of the Ult newcomers and one or two 3DS/Wii U newcomers need reworks, but you could probably get a statisfactory rework with just the "Olimar only has 3 Pikmin now" approach.