*UPDATED* Sonic Stage/Counterpick Discussion *Discuss PS1 + New BF Rewrite*

[aeghrur]

Yoooooo, cam has his old avi back. Nice.

 

[Kinzer]

I really don't understand why nobody likes Pkmn Stad II, I can't see what's so wrong about other than the annoying conveyor belts (if you're playing Sonic this is not a problem) and the wind stage (again, if you're playing Sonic, if you want to get back down you can just Dair).

 

[darkNES386]

This has recently been made a counterpick for the official SBR rules set.

I highly doubt many people like this stage and since Sonic is one of the best at getting from random point A on the stage to random point B on the stage... maybe this is a worthy counterpick to take both players uncomfortable with it and certain characters period.

I'm starting to like this stage a lot over the original PKMN (when I'm Sonic). I was never a big fan of the original because it seems that many of the stage transformations force Sonic into awkward situations where his options are very limited (primarily due to lack of a projectile).

Pokemon Stadium 2 seems to be a great stage to take projectile wielding opponents, slower large characters in general and to cause disruption to stage control characters.

Diddy kong's bananas, Snake's C4/nades, any projectile shot from the ground, chain grabbing, and charge up specials (yes even Sonic's side dash slides on the conveyor belt) are completely thrown off here.

Some intitial observations:
The general stage layout is a flat stage with more definite edges so you don't have to pull out those mad wall jump skills as often.

Airdash is possible on earth mound.

Spin Dash (side B) stops in place on the ice as if the ice does not exist.

Yes... a Sonic could be accused of stalling on the air level
You can get a lot more horizontal movement out of his ASC and spin dash hop here... good and bad.

During the electric stage I'm convinced Sonic's ground speed makes him superior at holding the best position (the ground) since the conveyor belts force most characters to take to the platforms.

If Sonic performs a SDR turnaround while on the conveyor belt that is rotating off stage Sonic will become stuck... I was trying to see if anything useful happens with this such as hitbox stuff, but it's hard to test since the stage changes so fast.

Bottom line... if you take a little time to learn this stage with Sonic, I think it would be an effective counterpick to catch many players off guard regardless of what character they are.

 

[Camalange]

PS2 discussion it is then.

 

[Chis]

Hopefully sticking this will add some much needed motivation.

 

[Camalange]

LMAO

Stickied ^_^


Well, now that this is an important thread, I plan on giving it a HUGE revamp. Just give me a few days to get things re-organized/updated. I also plan on updating this with Gf2's thread so it can be a discussion and counterpick thread.

 

[Kinzer]

I want to rediscuss Japes, I've gotten over my hatred for the stage and I find it to be awesome, save for maybe Falco but I'll see where this goes.

 

[platiepoos]

PS2 is a rather uncomfortable stage for many people in general. Add this to the common unfamiliarity many people have with the Sonic matchup, and CPing this stage can apply quite a bit of psychological pressure on the opponent.

Conveyor belts and fans are not as much a problem for Sonic because of his running speed and springs/dairs, as mentioned earlier.

The right portion of the ground type stage sets up well for uair juggles while the hill is fun for SDR trixies.

I'm currently working on my mobility on ice, since Sonic seems like a character that could benefit greatly from the terrain. (sliding fsmashes ftw)

 

[Camalange]

So...I was thinking about taking this down and just starting from scratch...

Opinions?

 

[platiepoos]

Why? Aside from a few very minor layout issues, this thread seems pretty good.

What are your reasons for wanting to start a new thread?

 

[Camalange]

Not starting a new thread, just redoing our stage summaries.


Meh, I'll take another look over it. Maybe throw in some extra tid-bits/make changes. If anyone wants to submit new ideas for this thread such as formatting ideas and things, let me know ^_^

 

[Kinzer]

That would probably be a good idea if the majority of the info here is not correct/up-to-date.

If you're going to do that though, at least keep the information that is correct, if any. This would seem like a good idea since now we have a new ruleset and a metagame that has gone future.

I'm getting really tired so take my post/suggestion with a grain of salt.

 

[platiepoos]

Perhaps you could include a video from Espy's thread that properly demonstrates competitive play in the stage in quesion?

Overall, I think stage summaries could be a bit longer that's all. Also, a list of characters with notable disadvantages in certain stages would be good for using this thread as a CP reference.

Back on PS2, what are the best chars to CP there? I know it's only been allowed by TO's for a short time now, but there must be some people that stand out.

 

[Camalange]

Overall, I think stage summaries could be a bit longer that's all. Also, a list of characters with notable disadvantages in certain stages would be good for using this thread as a CP reference.

Well, I already mentioned that I planned on doing that, hence the title update.

I just need to get around to doing it O_o

 

[Jim Morrison]

I think my thread just got ***** mad hard. Feel free to use any info, but don't get greedy.

 

[Camalange]

I think my thread just got ***** mad hard. Feel free to use any info, but don't get greedy.

Actually Gf, what I want to do is have your thread running, then put your information INTO my thread, giving you credit of course ^_^

It could be like a combined master thread of sorts.

 

[Jim Morrison]

No, that'd be just stupid.
This is the stage/CP thread, you might want to pick up where I stopped.

 

[Camalange]

Welp, okay Gf. If that's what you would prefer.

--

Just give me a bit of time to update the OP and such before we get started on our next discussion.

EDIT: Hey Chis, you should let me take control of IceDX's first post in this thread...lol

 

[Camalange]

Double post? - Please read OP

Sorry for the dubble bubble posting, but I'd like everyone to take a look at the OP. I decided to add categories to each stages to further break them down.

-Platforms

-Recovery Options + Walljump Locations

-KO Potential

-Hazards

Anything else you guys think it needs?

Discuss.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yes, just quote my thread, remove quote tags, put in your thread, profit.

 

[Chis]

So....

What stage are we doing now?

 

[Camalange]

The stage we're doing now is convincing people that Marth isn't that difficult.

):<

But honestly, I was hoping for more input on my categories before I moved on so I could break down the old stage synopsis but um...let's move on to Lylat Cruise.

I still want people's opinions on my category idea.

 

[SothE700k]

Everybody is always saying Sonic blows horribly on Lylat Cruise. I personally don't feel that way, as its one of my personal favorite stages to take people to. Like it has been said for awhile, Sonic has absolutely no issues recovering, and that's a major plus on such a stage that gives a big "WTF!? I SHOULD'VE RECOVERED FROM THAT! BULLS$%@!!!" factor. The bottom level allows Sonic to work a bit with running and canceling, and if you prop someone on top of the platforms and you're on bottom, that can work as a screwy mindgame on its own.

Though the low platforms can work as a huge plus to Sonic, they work as a huge minus against him as well. Anyone who isn't aware of the platforms while using a d-air can cost them some serious lag time, and that becomes free shots on you from the opponent.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Edit: The blast zones. Correct if I am wrong, but aren't the blast zones pretty big in this?
In that case, the Sonic player will definitely need to be skilled in gimping. Though it seems pretty easy to gimp people on such a stage (except the fliers, who can just go under the stage >_>) so if they're not a flier, scoot them under the stage if you can.

 

[Kinzer]

I've been/still in a haitus, sorry I couldn't say something about the idea earlier, but I'm up for details write-ups I guess. So lnog as they get done of course.

Anyway Lylat Cruise. If this isn't banned then it's a solid counter for characters with bad recoveries, making it even harder on them. The spacies come first to mind, with strong emphasis on Wolf O' Donnell. Characters that have bad/non-existent sweetspots on their recoveries is also a bonus, let's say Snake or other Sonic's if you get them low enough for that (don't expect that, but it's just an example, I'm sure somebody else/ you can be a bit more creative with the ideas.)

Some other characters are discouraged rather to be taken here, such as Snake and to a lesser extent Mr. G&W. The stage has a rather dark background, so for people who aren't that attentive to the cosmetic changes may have a problem. C4's also happen to be invisible and Grenades if not just barely catchable. Snake can also blend in with his normal/secondary costumes... Uhm this last is probably nothing to worry about, especially if they have a tag in which you can see where they are. The camera also happens to be a good indicator. UTilt probably also hits you on platforms and with you at a higher ground you will die that much faster, granted Lylat's ceiling is pretty high. Mr. G&W has that costume thing, and he REALLY blends in with the background. Platforms however protect from constant (Up-B ->) Dair/Keyblade spamming, so that's a plus. If you can coup with the darkness I would actually take this stage over FD sometimes, as it's pretty much a combination of FD and Battlefield but with platforms that IMHO you can take better advantage of and you too have a camouflage advantage with the black Sonic alt costume, though not much can be the difference between victory and defeat.

That's our point of view anyway, we really don't mind having to be attentive anyway, and one small mindgame isn't so bad, not to mention we're all pretty much used to FD's lip and the additional banking of the stage is but of little concern (to Sonic).

It's really a matter of just getting comfortable on this stage and you should have little to no problem and gain an advantage on some other characters or go neutral with that would be otherwise on some other stages.

How about that?

 

[Camalange]

I love Lylat Cruise.


Although Snake loves it more <_<
Good feedback thus far Kinzer.

 

[Kinzer]

I love Lylat Cruise.


Although Snake loves it more <_<
Good feedback thus far Kinzer.

Fixed, unfortunately.

But seriously, even though there are better CPs than LC for Snake, would it be suicide to CP/get CPed there with him?

Also, question:

Y'all know about Snake's stupid D-Throw on platforms thing? I don't think it works out quite well when perhaps a well-timed get-up attack will usually be enough to push him off thanks to how small the platforms are (he can still time spotdodges though) whereas if this were BF you would be screwed if you got D-Throw techchased there having to play an even bigger guessing game. Thoughts?

 

[Camalange]

Fixed, unfortunately.

I don't know what you're referring to.

But seriously, even though there are better CPs than LC for Snake, would it be suicide to CP/get CPed there with him?

I wouldn't go as extreme as suicide...but still not the best option.

Also, question:

Y'all know about Snake's stupid D-Throw on platforms thing? I don't think it works out quite well when perhaps a well-timed get-up attack will usually be enough to push him off thanks to how small the platforms are (he can still time spotdodges though) whereas if this were BF you would be screwed if you got D-Throw techchased there having to play an even bigger guessing game. Thoughts?

Is this proven? I'll have to experiment with that...I don't recall the platforms being THAT small for the shield push to be enough.

 

[Kinzer]

I don't know what you're referring to.



Is this proven? I'll have to experiment with that...I don't recall the platforms being THAT small for the shield push to be enough.

Lylat Cruise, and whether or not it's an autoloss here when fighting Snake, I'm looking at 65/35 at best (you did not wsee me type the opposite here >.>).

Also let me dust off my Wii and find out for you if that really works Camal, it's only fair that I confirm my claims. I'll edit this in 10 minutes.

Edit: Wow, my batteries for my Wii die out on me, no worries I had a couple of spares.

Anyway Right platform, having Snake face left, having Sonic do his get-up attack on his shield on the right side of the platform will push Snake off far enough to just make him freefall. There's a hard to see but fine line that divides the right and left side of the platform, and Snake can grab Sonic just barely past that fine line and his get-up attack will work. The stage banking itself might also affect the outcome, for example when I had Snake place his foot on the left side of the platform while the ship banked to the left, I could push him off whereas if the ship was level or banked to the opposite direction it would not have worked. BTW Snake has more shield pushback resistance if he's grabbing you from the left side of the platform If you want the left platform analysis just apply this backwards.

Now the middle platform is rather similar, and since either side is parallel with level ground, I guess it wouldn't matter unless the stage was banked... though I got kind of lazy to gather those results, but the few that I did did not appear to turn out whether or Not Snake got an extra push... which again was just barely past that middle line.

 

[Camalange]

Well thank you Kinzer for that. Impressive. It'll probably take awhile for me to determine each of those situations in the middle of a match for awhile...but that's something I need to learn.

I'd have to say though that this is still a better stage for Snake. Not impossible victory, but it's a stage good Snakes will understand to a very high degree, so be wary.

 

[Camalange]

UPDATES - Sorry for double post!

Alright, I revamped the BF write up and plan on doing the same setup for the rest of the stages we already have done. Please take a look and tell me what you think ^_^

I will also start my Lylat write up soon, so if you have yet to participate (everyone except Kinzer) please feel free to chime in.

 

[~TBS~]

my bad. :/

lylat is defo a good Sonic stage. Gimps are guranteed (somewhat. dont get too confident) with SD's or screwing up recoveries. basically everything Kinzer stated. I never really took a Snake to lylat. is it that bad? And G&W gets owned here kinzer. Its so reassuring when they SD.

@Cam
BF is your stage, and you know the most about it. Dont you forget it! its good. D3 dthrow kill is 2 good. And spring spawning is way legit. Abuse it.

@Kinzer
are we gonna finish up "Kinzers Sonic Heroes Project 2 on 2 guide"? I really want to improve my dubz Sonic. it needs some work.

4 lyfe.

 

[Kinzer]

Speed, next time please take it to PMs (profile or private) so I won't have to go off-topic in another thread, but to answer the question, I'm much too lazy to start it up again, I'm probably a little bit more focused in other places... such as bettering myself as a player, so that I may perform better with Sonic.

I am so out of touch, I went to EVO just to support Vegas, played a couple of matches, and I got trashed by a Zelda, which I shouldn't and no johns but I could just feel how out of shape I am.

I hopefully won't have that problem at the Vegas weekly, but it's so d*** hard to get matches in without having to do MMs with people, and I just want to get better not make a living. :/

However I bring good news, finally got to fight a good Weegee, and maybe he isn't at Biglou's level, but he was good... good enough to beat me at least (if that's worth anything), but it was always close matches, and if it was ever 2 stocks and/or more, it was because I messed up in places, but the MU doesn't seem that bad, which is what I see a couple of us saying.

 

[Camalange]

bump?

I don't have that Lylat write up but please share your thoughts on the BF write up and discuss what our next stage should be.

 

[Kinzer]

I liked the BF write-up.

I think we should go over Pkmn Stad I, it's usually a starter stage sometimes in Vegas.

 

[Camalange]

Oh, I like that idea a lot. Forget everyone else's opinions.


Discuss PS1 plz ^_^

 

[Kinzer]

I don't want to be the first and only person other than Camalange to open up discussion. :/

However if after a day or a couple nothing is said, then I'll be more than happy to jumpstart Pkmn Stad I.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

The rock transformation is annoying on this stage, so many thing to get in the way. Other than that Sonic is decent on this stage. I don't see a problem with the other forms.

 

[chaoechidna]

The vid with Shugo vs. Overswarm on this stage is a pretty good summary i think. He really knows how to use the stage to his advantage. This vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTjFmBhcoMQ

I feel like this is a pretty good level, not really bad for sonic at all. They have platforms for sonic to uair and fair when opponent is above, they got level ground for the spin dashs and running game. The windmill on the left of a transformation can be amazing for racking up damage, but you can also get screwed royally if it's done to you. Try up throw to dsmash like shugo does, works well enough unless the opponent has invincibility frames when getting up. Grass land is pretty much just a flat stage with a couple of platforms, nothing really. Rock stage, gotta agree with above, lots of stuff gets in the way and the only attacks you're gonna get are aerial. Forget the ground for the rock stage. If you spin dash or downB and you hit a wall, which this rock stage has a lot of, you'll be left pushing against it and very vulnerable for a couple seconds, so don't spin too much here. Lastly, the fire stage is a basic stage, a wall on the left side in the form of a burning tree. Same thing as above, don't sideB/downB into it. This stage has a platform as well.

For wall jumping, the rock zone is good cause on the left they have a huge.. rock. Wall jumping up and down that can add to some mind gamin, but it's pretty basic stuff, so not a huge mind game at all.

Recovery is pretty easy on this, it's kinda like final destination though, so watch out for those edges underneath the stage, they can kill. It has a weird edge though, i've recovered from it at times when I thought i was a goner for sure. The spring's momentum carried me up underthe edge, but i was able to still grab on when i DI'd for the edge grab. This didn't always work though, so it's got some weird property.

Hazards, watch out for the windmill on the left. It can be an asset or you can get wrecked. Plus, it can be hard to navigate around sometimes if you're trying to get through it to the edge. I try to use it to my advantage as much as possible. Bair your opponent into it and send em flying off the stage to the left, it's pretty amazing, especially if you get them going off the stage at a downward angle. Fsmash them into the windmill too, send em off. Any attack that sends an opponent into the windmill will most likely send them back to you too, so watch it in case they tech off the windmill and come back at ya. That's never happened to me yet though, so i'm not sure how likely that is to occur. The rock stage has a bunch of obstacles you want to watch out for, especially the middle where you're stuck between a rock and a platform tower. This can be good for walljumps as well, but you're prob gonna be teching off this wall the entire time, as sonic seems to get owned when thrown into here. Try to spring out of it asap, otherwise you could end up with a lot of damage from opponents that have better close range game than you do. Also on the right side there is a little separation from the trasformed level and the grey part of the original edges. When you're running from the grey edge to the rock part, you're gonna be stopped. You can't run from the grey edge to the rock part, there seems to be a little snag that stops the run in its tracks. Watch out for that. Lastly, i know that a lot of sonics love the spring-> dair and spam it a lot. Be careful doing that in any of the transformations, including the neutral stadium, because the changing of platform positions could leave you stuck to the ground from lag that you would otherwise have been able to avoid.

Killing potential is about normal for a stage i think. I haven't really done in-depth research on the edges or the ceiling, if someone knows better than i do on that, listen to them. I think the edge screens are slightly closer than battlefield, but again, i could be completely mistaken on that, so take that with a grain of salt.

Hope this format is correct. If there's any problem, feel free to comment/correct, and i apologize in advance if I stated something incorrectly. All in all, a good sonic level i think, i really enjoy the changes and if you know the level well it'll be that much harder for the opponent to win, or even get damage. Due to the walls in certain transformations, you could be living up to very high percents. Definitely one of my favorite levels to play with sonic.

 

[Camalange]

Hey.


Discuss.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Ever Sonic player should stay from pictochat. It has a high ceilling just like JJ, and all the gimmicks are so ****ing random. Pictochat is somewhere I don't wanna be at with Sonic. It hurts his game a lot when you go there.

P.S.

Pictochat is evil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!