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Range, recovery, better combo consistency(UThrow > FAir works up until 80s at the very least, not to mention DThrow stuff and NAir/DTilt stuff), isn't AS fudged in disadvantage, oh and blue flames.
'd.
Bowser is "that high" due to an amazing out of shield game with his Ub-b, and punish game.
Characters [Sheik and Rosalina are the best at this with Needles and Luma, Pit is also quite good at this] can combo him due to his huge frame, get him off the stage, then Gimp him over and over with Arrows/Needles/Luma until around 200% [ZeRo did this to M2K at Pax], or even further, at which point if you do get on the stage, Rosa and Pit can both kill you with throws, and even Sheik can kill you really easily at that percent. DK's disadvantage state, I'd argue, is even worse than Roy's due to hit huge frame and slower attacks, and his advantage state isn't that much better than Roy's, as Roy is faster and can get the same % off of combos, and kills at the same time [Uncharged FSmash killed
under 60% off the side, not DI influenced, it even did the red lightning] or even earlier. 
Radical Larry
- Why on earth is Ganondorf so high and Duck Hunt in bottom 5?
Unless specified or noticeable like Fox's Blaster, all moves have knockback growth even if its little. In Mario's case as with most multi-hit or weighted knockback moves, the knockback growth just gets "canceled" out. Simplistic way of explaining what the knockback formulas do, though. Ask A_Kae, since I don't remember the formula, but I know KBG for both normal and weighted has KBG/100 somewhere. Mario's Dair has 100 KBG for all hits, but 10 weighted for the looping hits and 60 weighted for the landing hit. The last hit has to have base knockback of 80 or it would be a bit silly. Without any knockback, I'm going to assume there's no hit stun meaning if Mario's Dair had no knockback, it would be a close-range Fox Blaster... Yeah...
TDK
Ganondorf is high because he can display good potential and has tournament results to back him up. He's not too high, because he's in the very middle (alongside Link), because he's a character of some good balance.
Though Abadango dropped, there's is still another Pac-Man main by the name of Zage. His Pac-man maybe even better than Abadango. Abadango seems to be going thru a phase right now, trying to feel his way out, trying a bunch of characters. The projectile trio
are all super interesting, especially pac-man. Those sick fruit combos have really changed my mind about him. These three characters are similar in the fact that they do really well, but just have a few top tiers that give them serious problems, specifically sheik. I know for he also has a bad matchup against 
Pacman is in a very strange predicament. All of his tools have so much obvious counterplay that many of our players believe that he will become a mid tier character in the future.Eh, I'll let Shaya handle that list, moderation-wise.
But anyway, can we talk about Pacman?
I think he's a very difficult character to weigh, his whole gameplan seems to be to outgimmick you, and when facing one more often than not your though is "I didn't know that", "I didn't expect that", "it caught me off guard", "I could've avoided that" and similar stuff.
As in, is he successful just because he catches people offguard? Is the matchup so complex and obscure that is difficult to play at not top level? Is it possible to be perfectly aware of all of Pacman's micromanagements and avoid being hit by them?
I think yes.
Zage is definitely not better than abadango lol. That's comparing a mid level player to a high level (maybe top level) player. Dee is the only pacman main that gives abadango a run for his money. Pacman also does not lose to ROB. We force him to approach us and have better ways of keeping him out than he does us.Though Abadango dropped, there's is still another Pac-Man main by the name of Zage. His Pac-man maybe even better than Abadango. Abadango seems to be going thru a phase right now, trying to feel his way out, trying a bunch of characters. The projectile trio
If he did it wasn't on stream, but Nietono is known for using tons of "joke" characters. His main was listed asI also don't think Nietono switched off Diddy in Umebura FAT. PagingDjent
in the rankings.This is anecdotal, but it comes from the best two players
has, so I'm going to pretend for a moment that the plural of "anecdote" is "data:" (in WF, no less) and (vs. Umeki). Ginko's best finish utilized to beat Komorikiri and Ruri.
Nu~
, I'm not counting Dee.
If he did it wasn't on stream, but Nietono is known for using tons of "joke" characters. His main was listed as
This is anecdotal, but it comes from the best two players
Abadango's one tournament win involved the help of
Since the best offline Pac-Mains* all tend toward playing multiple characters, and attain their best placings by far while utilizing said characters, it suggests to me that the character is probably borderline viable on his own.
* Sorry
true dat
Ganondorf in mid tier, Greninja in low tier, Wii Fit bottom 5. Ness in top 5. Lucina 2 whole tiers lower than Marth. Sounds about right for Larry. Only surprise is that he placed Link in a somewhat plausible position instead of top 10.Well, let me just do my own tier list. I haven't done these in a while, and I'm basing this all off how a character plays, potential, tournament results and talk based upon the character. However, tournament results are the heaviest amount of all things, so a character might be in a position that you might think of as odd for a moment, but tournament results do allow them to be there. I'm giving 6 categories filled with 2 sub-categories to fit all the characters within, as it will go by named viability and a sub-category of letter viability.
Named Viability is truly what you need to acknowledge, as Letter Viability just allows characters to be in a decent order so that they can be categorized. Top Tiers are top tiers and so on and so forth, no matter the letter.
Without further ado, let's head on to the "Radical Larry Tier List v3". And remember, no bias, so you can help manipulate my list if need be:
Category: Top Tier
Top Tier characters show the most potential and tournament results out of any character within the game, and have relatively good play styles that allow them to rise above others. They have low-risk, high reward, great advantage and disadvantage.
Sub-Category: S-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: A-Tier
Characters:
Category: High Tier
High Tier Characters show extraordinary potential and tournament results, and have good play styles that help them rise high. They have low or high risk, high reward, great advantage and disadvantage.
Sub-Category: B-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: C-Tier
Characters:
Category: Middle Tier
Middle Tier Characters show amazing potential and/or tournament results, and have decent play styles that can help them be viable. They have low or high risk and reward, good advantage and disadvantage, as well as are good in terms of balance.
Sub-Category: D-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: E-Tier
Characters:
Category: Low Tier
Low Tier Characters can still show potential and tournament results, but they have a harder time than other characters to even get there in the first place due to them being harder to use initially. They have medium to high risk and reward, good advantage and disadvantage, and are good for pocket characters.
Sub-Category: F-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: G-Tier
Characters:
Category: Bottom Tier
Bottom Tier Characters (this isn't actually bottom tier) show small potential and tournament results, and even have an extremely hard time than other characters do in finding results, but they can. They have high risk and moderate reward, average advantage and low disadvantage, and you better pick a great secondary.
Sub-Category: H-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: I-Tier
Characters:
Category: Negligible 5
The Negligible 5 are characters who show the worst potential out of any single character in the game, and have the hardest time to even get to where they can win. They have high risk, low reward most of the time, low advantage and bad disadvantage, and it's recommended to always pick a secondary that's of a higher tier.
Sub-Category: J-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: Z-Tier
Characters:
Anything from comments to suggestions on where characters can be are indeed welcome, but I'd like to get some characters out of the way.
Link is considered the most balanced character and despite him not having that much tournament results, his balance is so great that he can actually be considered the "middle" character. He's got good frame data (not sluggish attacks; his attacks are better than some characters'), good aerial and ground mobility, great combo game and powerful KO attacks abound his arsenal. He also has arguably one of the better gimping and edge-guarding games of all characters, and his boot can defeat many projectiles, and his bombs defeat fully charged projectiles. However, he still suffers from heavy weight, below-average mobility compared to the cast and lack of good OoS options.
Ganondorf is so high, unlike some peoples' expectations, because he has quite a bit of tournament results and is also very balanced, being the second best super heavy in the game, next to Donkey Kong. He's got arguably the best frame data of the Super Heavyweight category, has great tech chases and reads with Flame Choke, unarguably the most powerful attacks in the game overall, the best meteor and the best GTFA move in Wizard's Foot, which KO's characters who are light very early. He's also decent at breaking shields. However, he's not without faults as he is one of the heaviest characters in the game, the 3rd slowest, has bad aerial mobility and jumps, a bad recovery and is easy to combo.
Due to better match-ups against characters lower than her, as well as good combo ability from D-Throw > N-Air at various percents and characters, as well as the new buffs, Samus has become much more viable on my tier list than her original placing, which could have been Negligible Tier. She still suffers problems like floatiness, lack of power on most of her attacks and high end lag on attacks, but overall she's more solid from the patch.
1) What rep or result does Roy have? Has he cracked top 8 at a national? Has he even put a dent in a major bracket?Characters [Sheik and Rosalina are the best at this with Needles and Luma, Pit is also quite good at this] can combo him due to his huge frame, get him off the stage, then Gimp him over and over with Arrows/Needles/Luma until around 200% [ZeRo did this to M2K at Pax], or even further, at which point if you do get on the stage, Rosa and Pit can both kill you with throws, and even Sheik can kill you really easily at that percent. DK's disadvantage state, I'd argue, is even worse than Roy's due to hit huge frame and slower attacks, and his advantage state isn't that much better than Roy's, as Roy is faster and can get the same % off of combos, and kills at the same time [Uncharged FSmash killed
Also,
No you dont
I wouldn't ignore Roy's mobility. His footsies are top notch. DK does have much more consistent ways to finish stocks. These characters have very little in common tbh, I think comparing them is moot. I do think that both are in a similar spot.
Means it lingers, or that the hitbox stays out.
Not A_Kae, but yes Fox's Blaster has 0 knockback values.
(((((p/10+(p*d)/20)*200/(w+100)*1.4+18)*(g/100))+b)*(m)
p = % after hit, d = damage of attack,
w = weight of defender, g = kb growth, b = base kb,
m = misc.((((((10/10)+((10*s)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)*(m)
s = (set) weight based kb, w = weight of defender
g = kb growth, b = base kb, m = miscI sure hope you don't actually believe this.
Well, let me just do my own tier list. I haven't done these in a while, and I'm basing this all off how a character plays, potential, tournament results and talk based upon the character. However, tournament results are the heaviest amount of all things, so a character might be in a position that you might think of as odd for a moment, but tournament results do allow them to be there. I'm giving 6 categories filled with 2 sub-categories to fit all the characters within, as it will go by named viability and a sub-category of letter viability.
Named Viability is truly what you need to acknowledge, as Letter Viability just allows characters to be in a decent order so that they can be categorized. Top Tiers are top tiers and so on and so forth, no matter the letter.
Without further ado, let's head on to the "Radical Larry Tier List v3". And remember, no bias, so you can help manipulate my list if need be:
Category: Top Tier
Top Tier characters show the most potential and tournament results out of any character within the game, and have relatively good play styles that allow them to rise above others. They have low-risk, high reward, great advantage and disadvantage.
Sub-Category: S-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: A-Tier
Characters:
Category: High Tier
High Tier Characters show extraordinary potential and tournament results, and have good play styles that help them rise high. They have low or high risk, high reward, great advantage and disadvantage.
Sub-Category: B-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: C-Tier
Characters:
Category: Middle Tier
Middle Tier Characters show amazing potential and/or tournament results, and have decent play styles that can help them be viable. They have low or high risk and reward, good advantage and disadvantage, as well as are good in terms of balance.
Sub-Category: D-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: E-Tier
Characters:
Category: Low Tier
Low Tier Characters can still show potential and tournament results, but they have a harder time than other characters to even get there in the first place due to them being harder to use initially. They have medium to high risk and reward, good advantage and disadvantage, and are good for pocket characters.
Sub-Category: F-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: G-Tier
Characters:
Category: Bottom Tier
Bottom Tier Characters (this isn't actually bottom tier) show small potential and tournament results, and even have an extremely hard time than other characters do in finding results, but they can. They have high risk and moderate reward, average advantage and low disadvantage, and you better pick a great secondary.
Sub-Category: H-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: I-Tier
Characters:
Category: Negligible 5
The Negligible 5 are characters who show the worst potential out of any single character in the game, and have the hardest time to even get to where they can win. They have high risk, low reward most of the time, low advantage and bad disadvantage, and it's recommended to always pick a secondary that's of a higher tier.
Sub-Category: J-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: Z-Tier
Characters:
Anything from comments to suggestions on where characters can be are indeed welcome, but I'd like to get some characters out of the way.
Link is considered the most balanced character and despite him not having that much tournament results, his balance is so great that he can actually be considered the "middle" character. He's got good frame data (not sluggish attacks; his attacks are better than some characters'), good aerial and ground mobility, great combo game and powerful KO attacks abound his arsenal. He also has arguably one of the better gimping and edge-guarding games of all characters, and his boot can defeat many projectiles, and his bombs defeat fully charged projectiles. However, he still suffers from heavy weight, below-average mobility compared to the cast and lack of good OoS options.
Ganondorf is so high, unlike some peoples' expectations, because he has quite a bit of tournament results and is also very balanced, being the second best super heavy in the game, next to Donkey Kong. He's got arguably the best frame data of the Super Heavyweight category, has great tech chases and reads with Flame Choke, unarguably the most powerful attacks in the game overall, the best meteor and the best GTFA move in Wizard's Foot, which KO's characters who are light very early. He's also decent at breaking shields. However, he's not without faults as he is one of the heaviest characters in the game, the 3rd slowest, has bad aerial mobility and jumps, a bad recovery and is easy to combo.
Due to better match-ups against characters lower than her, as well as good combo ability from D-Throw > N-Air at various percents and characters, as well as the new buffs, Samus has become much more viable on my tier list than her original placing, which could have been Negligible Tier. She still suffers problems like floatiness, lack of power on most of her attacks and high end lag on attacks, but overall she's more solid from the patch.
Holly cow man, greninja is way too low. He should be somewhere behind the Angels, but DEFINITELY not behind Link. I mean seriously? That placement is kinda whack.
And Duck Hunt is bottom five because you really need to learn him big time in order to do something with him; his Smashes can be SDI'd out of, his aerials aside from N-Air and U-Air aren't that great, his combo game from throws is bad, he's light, he can be juggled easily, some of his attacks have high end lag (like Side Special), and some of his attacks are really weak. But he has good sides in that his attacks come out fast, he's got a good RAR, good edge-guarding game, amazing projectile game and good set ups with his projectiles.
Again, all you guys need to do is ask for any position changes. (I'll gladly put Diddy Kong into a higher position when one pointed out he was rather low.)
If players took 5 minutes to study Pac Man and had the sense to ignore his hydrant, he would get results that reflect where he should be (high mid tier).Eh, I'll let Shaya handle that list, moderation-wise.
But anyway, can we talk about Pacman?
I think he's a very difficult character to weigh, his whole gameplan seems to be to outgimmick you, and when facing one more often than not your though is "I didn't know that", "I didn't expect that", "it caught me off guard", "I could've avoided that" and similar stuff.
As in, is he successful just because he catches people offguard? Is the matchup so complex and obscure that is difficult to play at not top level? Is it possible to be perfectly aware of all of Pacman's micromanagements and avoid being hit by them?
I think yes.
I think what's more notable is that Abadango in the switch to MK has kept Pac-Man but dropped Wario, when a lot of people see Wario as high tier and Pac-Man as gimmicky.
Flame Choke is burst movement that threatens shield. Fair and Bair are safe on shield now, and Aerial Wizkick breaks weakened shields. It's also not true that Ganondorf can't do anything if you don't commit. He might not have anything reliable, but you do have to respect him. Frankly his approach options are better than Charizard's. Ganondorf is still bad but probably slightly better than Zard now that shields are nerfed and Zard's OOS is less useful.
WatSub-Category: E-Tier
Characters:
Sub-Category: F-Tier
Characters:
It most certainly is. It's even easier at mid-range.
Reasons why Chariard is better than ganondorf:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ganondorf says it starts on frame 16, that's not realistically reactable (it's the same amount of time for ZSS's grab to come out which is also not reactable). i wrote more about it here
I agree to an extent that Sheik isn't dominating (she certainly was during the summer) but she's still doing stronger than any other character even if you remove Zero out of the equation.
Ganon and Zard are both good at edgeguarding. Ganon's probably a bit better overall. Flamethrower is a great poke for Zard but it's not really all that much better than Ganon's better moves in neutral. Zard's other options are pretty limited, and he can't pressure shields like Ganondorf can. Zard's dash speed does help in neutral, but it matters way more for his punish game than neutral. Really Zard lacks spacing tools in neutral, especially in the air, while Ganondorf's aerials are much more formidable. Both of them were about equal in viabiity as of 1.1.0, but Zard got hurt more since he has fewer spacing tools and relied more on OOS than Dorf, and didn't gain nearly as much in terms of shield pressure. Also Ganon has Nair and Wizkick to threaten opponents with in disadvantage. They're about the same when it comes to difficulty landing.
If I can train myself to spotdodge on reaction to the noise Brawl Zelda's 12 frame grab makes, and distinguish it from every other noise she makes, it's entirely possible to react to Ganon's 16 frame startup with a considerable amount of practice.
