Wario is so fun to play. Kill them the first stock, and then run for your life. Your opponent starts to make mistakes, and you can rack up some damage before you die. Wario is so cool, but annoying to play against... Unless Wario Ditto. So many taunts...
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Wario Video & Critique Thread -- Diamond City Theater
- Thread starter Iota
- Start date
I agree with everything you said, but I just think Wario is actually the funnest, even after a long time, at least for me he is. He makes me think during the match. That's why Marth is my favorite MU with him, it really makes me think outside of the box.
I'll agree with the mentally straining part though. Sometimes I'lll be playing, And I'll start to notice that I'm playing a lot slower with less reaction time the longer the day goes on. Something wario players will have to get used to I guess haha.
2-DJeff
Smash Master
Well I mean if you look at gluttony he dosnt camp at all except that match against ally. But he was up close and evasive
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
I would like to hear some specific examples of how MK can "do whatever he feels like". He has a really long glide toss, so glide toss OoS punishes may be good (his glide toss may be TOO long, however haven't tested). His aerial mobility means he cannot be as quick and agile with his movements, he has to rely on tire hit -> Nair or something ****, also throwing it upwards/downwards makes it really hard to approach him without getting sliced and diced.
Do you have any matches of MK gettin' off with tires, or know of any? I would really like to see them!
Oh and my bad on not knowing what region you're from and what you're ranked RedHalberd LOL. I AM in Oregon, that's all the way across the country! FL ain't no tourist attraction.
Do you have any matches of MK gettin' off with tires, or know of any? I would really like to see them!
Oh and my bad on not knowing what region you're from and what you're ranked RedHalberd LOL. I AM in Oregon, that's all the way across the country! FL ain't no tourist attraction.
I dont mean he can do whatever he wants "with" tires, I'm saying he can do whatever he wants in the matchup as long as Wario doesn't have tires, and even if Wario has tires he only has to slightly adjust his playstyle to completely negate how effective they are. Sorry for miscommunication lol.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
Ohhh I see, well it turns out I misread it anyways so my bad! How do you completely negate tires? The tire metagame is still in it's young stages going on pre-teens, so it's not fully developed yet by any means. I will say that bouncing a tire near MK on the ground puts a pressure on him to react, because if he doesn't then even more pressure will be applied with aerials and/or bite to mix it up. Also a retreat is easy from this position, just use Wario's awesome aerial mobility to move behind the bouncing tire (an effective wall) with the option to recatch and rethrow farily safely.
And I'm not like a n00b or anything, I've played against a lot of really good MKs! I've beaten Nerd, t1mmy, and Tearbear in tournament, taking games off Jem and Viviff T. Great as well. All really high level MKs, though not TOP level (or maybe they are? they are super legit).
And I'm not like a n00b or anything, I've played against a lot of really good MKs! I've beaten Nerd, t1mmy, and Tearbear in tournament, taking games off Jem and Viviff T. Great as well. All really high level MKs, though not TOP level (or maybe they are? they are super legit).
Some saved Doubles matches from my most recent tournament--
The first game of Winner's Finals against MVD and Seibrik (twice, for some reason): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tP6cd7-SD4
Two games of Grand Finals against M2K and BigLou: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwuANDflObY
And for Singles, here's myself against Seibrik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovLtEIur65w
Myself against Player-1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcyThZ8tiYE
Dyno against Seibrik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr-9WQzc_IY
The first game of Winner's Finals against MVD and Seibrik (twice, for some reason): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tP6cd7-SD4
Two games of Grand Finals against M2K and BigLou: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwuANDflObY
And for Singles, here's myself against Seibrik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovLtEIur65w
Myself against Player-1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcyThZ8tiYE
Dyno against Seibrik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr-9WQzc_IY
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Play Glutonny.
Luigi player
Smash Master
dont air release all the time against MK
He would probably beat me. And what would that prove? That he's a significantly better player than me by a huge margin... and we already knew that. If someone can overcome a 60/40-70/30 matchup then the person they're playing either doesn't know the matchup, or is just getting outplayed by a huge margin.
Also, great matches Reflex!
Pretty much by definition, 70-30 MUs can't be overcome if the dominant character's user plays the MU properly.
Croi
Smash Lord
Meh I disagree. You have to factor in that some of the most dominating lockdown/spacing is only consistent at the highest levels of play.
For example, the better the MK, the less opportunities you'll have to punish with Wario. If the MK even slips up occasionally that's all you need to keep a match even. But if a MK never slips up, you'll have virtually zero opportunities for big hits. So the matchup isn't 70/30 at all levels of play, just at points where MKs are almost perfect. It progressively gets worse as the players on both ends get better.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
Such awesome matches Reflex, I loooove how you have a tire game now <3 it only gets better the more proficient you get!
As for matchups, what I believe is that the differences are how much "work" the character has to do to make the matchup even. Let's say Wario vs MK is 6-4 in MK's favor. Wario must work that much harder in order for the matchup to be even, meaning more practicing, researching ATs, training and drilling. The MK doesn't have to work as hard as the Wario player to go even, simply because of the advantages of his character. Reasonable enough eh?
And RedHalberd, Glutonny isn't WAAY better than you. He's pretty good though!
As for matchups, what I believe is that the differences are how much "work" the character has to do to make the matchup even. Let's say Wario vs MK is 6-4 in MK's favor. Wario must work that much harder in order for the matchup to be even, meaning more practicing, researching ATs, training and drilling. The MK doesn't have to work as hard as the Wario player to go even, simply because of the advantages of his character. Reasonable enough eh?
And RedHalberd, Glutonny isn't WAAY better than you. He's pretty good though!
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
i watched the first round of your match vs seibrik and then watched the first round of your match vs m2k. I think the one when you played m2k you were a lot better. No hate just saying.
There's a saturation point to what you're actually able to do in matchups. The end result determines how good each player is, not the actual options that make the match in question happen.
For example, if MK play X and Wario player Y go even, the Wario player is either a better player, and knows the matchup better, or the MK player doesn't know the matchup well, and isn't as good a player.
However, assuming the MK player is up to a certain par, increases in the skill of the wario player have less and less effect, because no matter how well you space against MK, your ability to actually punish is limited if MK reacts safely to your approaches.
We're not gonna argue about this. But Glutonny is definitely WAAAAY better than me. He just uses a worse character. Have you seen Glutonnys Falco compared to his Wario? Falco is a much easier character to apply, so his Falco looks absolutely absurd. Wario has a saturation point in how much reaction/technicality will increase the characters ability to bait punish. Imo Glutonny using Wario is actually a waste of skill, but the character being very demanding probably means he doesn't have to play anywhere near 100% of the time.
Totally agree with this.
I mean, Have you SEEN glutonny's MK? He obliterated Kaos in the ditto a while back, and it didn't even look like he was trying to be honest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysgmVAH2jkw
This was my point. A MU ratio is supposed to determine the saturation point of skill (it's funny to me that you explained it the exact way that I've used to explain it to people for years), and a 70-30 should be practically impossible for the 30 character if the 70 character is at such a level. Either the MK-Wario MU isn't 70-30 or the MK hasn't reached the saturation point (which is generally mid-level). 70-30 MUs or more polar MUs are all practically impossible, and are simply measured by how low the necessary saturation point of skill is.
yeah! I was just about to post the vids here.
Ad redhalberd! I'm getting better at the match up! hopefully I'll get down to your last stock next time haha!
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Then don't say "unwinnable".
Also, he's not that good, you guys hype europe. Your top MKs would beat him.
Edit: and your diddies, prolly DEHF as well. Marth no tho.
Edit2: You'd take the first game as well.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Glutonny's MK?
A lot of EC people hype up Europe really hard. I don't hype up Europe specifically but I acknowledge the incredible talent of its top players. It's the metagame that most people criticize, as it's almost absurdly aggressive by comparison to Japanese and American matches, I have no doubt EU would adapt pretty quickly if they came to a national over here.
And I'd probably take the first game but Glutonny's download speed is pretty ridiculous, I have no doubt he'd beat me with Falco or MK if he didn't with Wario. Also, EU doesn't have many of those matchups at high level so it wouldn't really be surprising etc etc.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Indeed, that's why I said those characters would win. But yeah, Glutonny's ability to adapt is amazing. Before BBI he had never played Snakes. That's why he MMd Ally before the bracket. He lost the WFs 3-0 then redeemed himself. He's an amazing player, but could be a lot better.
America's criticism toward our offensive style is not justified. When watching Leon's videos closely it's obvious his style does not put him at a risk. Mr-R's style however is a lot more risky, for he approaches with shields etc. more. And don't worry, I've played all these people. I might be biased because I myself still perform well, but I think America would completely destroy Europe except for Leon and Glutonny. Players like Luigi Player and Mr-R I think don't stand a chance. I've been saying this for years, but after BBI I had to take some of that back. However, Glutonny is an exception.
America's criticism toward our offensive style is not justified. When watching Leon's videos closely it's obvious his style does not put him at a risk. Mr-R's style however is a lot more risky, for he approaches with shields etc. more. And don't worry, I've played all these people. I might be biased because I myself still perform well, but I think America would completely destroy Europe except for Leon and Glutonny. Players like Luigi Player and Mr-R I think don't stand a chance. I've been saying this for years, but after BBI I had to take some of that back. However, Glutonny is an exception.
Since when does only losing to ~ a dozen players in the Western Hemisphere not that good?
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
He never lost.. You don't realise he never played any of your players.
He knows well that Glutonny has only played Ally, he's insinuating that just because a dozen or so of the best players in North America would/could beat Glutonny doesn't mean he's "not that good" or "overhyped" as you stated.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Heh, do you even realise that overhyped is completely subjective? Everytime we see a comment about Glutonny it's "OMG SO GOOD". Well yeah, that's overhyped. Whenever we talk about Ally, we don't hype the **** out of him, we remain critical. Even tho ally would probably destroy GLutonny at this moment in time.
Gluttony CAN beat Ally, but Ally CAN beat him. I think that some people "overhype" him because he isn't as well know as say, Ally. He can compete with the best, but he lives in Europe, so a lot of us don't really know who he is. We remain critical of Ally because everybody knows him, and trys to look for mistakes in his play.
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Guess GLutonny is just nice to watch. There's a tourney today, follow it.
KAB1
Smash Apprentice
There's nothing Reflex could've done. Getting grabbed in the air + 1 pummel will air release any character no matter what.dont air release all the time against MK