Xatic
Smash Lord
I'll try a couple things. Thanks for helping some
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Wario's Match-Ups!
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Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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I really think Wario has an even matchup with King Dedede, even on FD. While I personally don't have as much experience against characters like Peach, Marth or Falco, I feel that King Dedede is my best and most fun matchup.
Wario can easily avoid getting grabbed if you play right. Lots of full hopped aerials and avoiding landing in proximity with D3 are very important. The bike and tires give you something to do when you camp, so A. camping is waaay less boring and you actually gain a benefit from doing it, and B. The bike and tires help a tonnnnnn avoiding getting grabbed and scoring hits.
vs King Dedede example matches
Wario can easily avoid getting grabbed if you play right. Lots of full hopped aerials and avoiding landing in proximity with D3 are very important. The bike and tires give you something to do when you camp, so A. camping is waaay less boring and you actually gain a benefit from doing it, and B. The bike and tires help a tonnnnnn avoiding getting grabbed and scoring hits.
vs King Dedede example matches
Iota
Smash Lord
...I honestly don't think T1mmy is playing the MU right. He's letting you break the bike way too easily along with chasing you in the air recklessly <.< idk to me it just looks like you're outplaying a D3 who doesn't know the MU well.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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He knows the matchup well, I used to live with him and we played all the time. This playstyle is tough for D3 to deal with! How should the D3 play as to counter it? If he guards the bike, Wario can just dodge around and use fullhop aerials to safely poke. If D3 tries to chase, he will leave the bike open to be broken and then the tires are on the map. If he tries to use the tires, well then we can go all out aggro because now he doesn't have a grab!
There's no such thing as a safe poke against Dedede as Wario if you expect to actually hit him.
Itsnotmyfault
Smash Journeyman
Reflex said pretty much what i was going to. Dedede's grab range is like really good. You almost always put yourself at a risk of getting grabbed when hitting him with an aerial. If that wasn't enough he can just bair wall with Wario not really being able to do much about it.
It's more his B-Air than anything else, IMO, but, instant pivot grab is rough, too.
PieDisliker
Smash Lord
Dedede's pivot grab is like a magnet.
I'm also not sure if we should talk about the MK matchup first since he's softbanned.
I'm also not sure if we should talk about the MK matchup first since he's softbanned.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Also T1mmy might consider actually finishing his chaingrabs.
waldorf2007
Smash Ace
I play against 4 different shieks with wario at most tournaments
this is a ****ing game changer
thank you based wario boards
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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D3's pivot grab is ****, but as long as Wario doesn't predictably approach then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Check out this little techs against D3's Bair walling:
Option 1: Get the bike out. You can dthrow the bike to gain a moving wall projectile. Helpful to gain stage control.
Option 2: With a tire in your hand, you can Dthrow glidetoss to gain a lot of distance. If you shield D3's Bair with a tire in your hand, you can Dthow glidetoss out of shield to zip around D3. You will be in a better position than he.
Option 3: If King D3's Bair hits the tire, it will eat said tire and lag the Bair for a few frames. You have a bit more time to airdodge or get in a better position position under D3. Under D3 is the best spot to be, because his Bair will have lag if he lands with it and he has few safe landing options. Airdodge dropping also works great for lagging your opponent's moves, if you do it low enough to the ground you can Nair really quick to catch them.
Tires open up several options, depending on your positioning. Uthrowing the tire will create a bouncing hitbox, which can help increase stage control and possibly net a combo. A bouncing tire will also hinder a chaingrab, possibly saving your life.
Tires will not auto win the matchup. At best they make the vs 
matchup even, it is still tough and you have to be very precise and safe. Tires are precise instruments that take time to appreciate.
Option 1: Get the bike out. You can dthrow the bike to gain a moving wall projectile. Helpful to gain stage control.
Option 2: With a tire in your hand, you can Dthrow glidetoss to gain a lot of distance. If you shield D3's Bair with a tire in your hand, you can Dthow glidetoss out of shield to zip around D3. You will be in a better position than he.
Option 3: If King D3's Bair hits the tire, it will eat said tire and lag the Bair for a few frames. You have a bit more time to airdodge or get in a better position position under D3. Under D3 is the best spot to be, because his Bair will have lag if he lands with it and he has few safe landing options. Airdodge dropping also works great for lagging your opponent's moves, if you do it low enough to the ground you can Nair really quick to catch them.
Tires open up several options, depending on your positioning. Uthrowing the tire will create a bouncing hitbox, which can help increase stage control and possibly net a combo. A bouncing tire will also hinder a chaingrab, possibly saving your life.
Tires will not auto win the matchup. At best they make the
vs matchup even, it is still tough and you have to be very precise and safe. Tires are precise instruments that take time to appreciate.
It's not that I am saying that discussing is wrong - it is great, trust me! =P But my plan was that we discussed the MK MU and "decide" a MU ratio to then later on discuss tier wise all the way down to Ganondorf! ;P
But if you want to discuss several MUs like what you are doing right now, fine, I won't hinder you! =)
But if you want to discuss several MUs like what you are doing right now, fine, I won't hinder you! =)
You should probably put the currently-being-discussed character in the thread title.
Iota
Smash Lord
I think we should also invite people who play the currently discussed chars to pitch in too.
Oh, somebody changed the title for me, thank you! You will be doing that from now on.
About the MU: I would say it is -2 for Wario because MK's frame data and extremely overpriorated range completely shuts down Wario. The only thing Wario can do is to wait for an opening to attack MK. Yeah, Wario should camp against MK, I really mean it. The only thing Wario has against MK is power. And Wario SHOULD NOT, (I repeat) SHOULD NOT approach MK!
My ratio: -2 (<----- do that so I can summarize our conclusion!)
About the MU: I would say it is -2 for Wario because MK's frame data and extremely overpriorated range completely shuts down Wario. The only thing Wario can do is to wait for an opening to attack MK. Yeah, Wario should camp against MK, I really mean it. The only thing Wario has against MK is power. And Wario SHOULD NOT, (I repeat) SHOULD NOT approach MK!
My ratio: -2 (<----- do that so I can summarize our conclusion!)
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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My ratio against MK for Wario = +0
MK is a really good character with very quick moves and good range. However, his moves are punishable if they hit Wario's shield. Wario has a lot of Out of Shield options against MK, enough to turn the tide against an aggressive MK.
-Wario can punish MK's Fair against his shield with an OoS Fair or Dthrow tire glide toss.
-Wario can punish MK's hovering Dair on our shield with an Uair OoS if we're frame perfect.
-Wario can punish MK's Nair on our shield with a Nair of our own OoS or even a Fsmash.
-Wario can punish MK's Dsmash on our shield with a Dthrow tire glide toss OoS to Fsmash/Fart.
What are the biggest shortfalls of Wario against MK? Lack of range, lack of a disjoint and lack of speed, right? Wrong. Utilizing the bike and tires correctly against MK can change the matchup to at least even, in my opinion. The bike and tires give Wario increased range, a huge disjointed projectile, several small projectiles that can lead to big damage combos and some sweet kills against MK. With items in the mix, Wario's punishing abilities skyrocket!
Moves like MK's tornado are made a bit less painful, since we can punish it easier with the bike and tires. Any MK that attempts to tornado through a bouncing bike is in for a world of hurt. Tires can hit MK inside his tornado from above and lead into a fart or Uair. Basically any tire hit can potentially lead into a fart, you just have to be really smart with your items.
Tires give Wario a great tool against MK, if you use them right. MK can play smart and utilize the tires himself, so when tires are on the field it can really change the feel of the match. However, I feel that Wario's item game is leagues better than MK's so therefore he can use tires more effectively.
My matchup ratio: +0
MK is a really good character with very quick moves and good range. However, his moves are punishable if they hit Wario's shield. Wario has a lot of Out of Shield options against MK, enough to turn the tide against an aggressive MK.
-Wario can punish MK's Fair against his shield with an OoS Fair or Dthrow tire glide toss.
-Wario can punish MK's hovering Dair on our shield with an Uair OoS if we're frame perfect.
-Wario can punish MK's Nair on our shield with a Nair of our own OoS or even a Fsmash.
-Wario can punish MK's Dsmash on our shield with a Dthrow tire glide toss OoS to Fsmash/Fart.
What are the biggest shortfalls of Wario against MK? Lack of range, lack of a disjoint and lack of speed, right? Wrong. Utilizing the bike and tires correctly against MK can change the matchup to at least even, in my opinion. The bike and tires give Wario increased range, a huge disjointed projectile, several small projectiles that can lead to big damage combos and some sweet kills against MK. With items in the mix, Wario's punishing abilities skyrocket!
Moves like MK's tornado are made a bit less painful, since we can punish it easier with the bike and tires. Any MK that attempts to tornado through a bouncing bike is in for a world of hurt. Tires can hit MK inside his tornado from above and lead into a fart or Uair. Basically any tire hit can potentially lead into a fart, you just have to be really smart with your items.
Tires give Wario a great tool against MK, if you use them right. MK can play smart and utilize the tires himself, so when tires are on the field it can really change the feel of the match. However, I feel that Wario's item game is leagues better than MK's so therefore he can use tires more effectively.
My matchup ratio: +0
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Please be nuanced and correct with such statements.
But Pwneroni, I respect your thoughts about the MU, but I wouldn't say it is +-0! =/ It isn't even near even. While I understand your thoughts with Wario's punish game and the tire game, a smart MK will know how to deal with the tires. Also, very many MKs seems to lack the knowledge about the Wario MU. Therefore it maybe seems to be around even, but a MK that knows the MU is just to hard to punish and use the tires against. =/ I'm not saying that we shouldn't use the tires against MK (we really should, because they give Wario so many options), but MK's range will likely destroy everything Wario has.
The thing is, Meta Knight will usually be in a position to camp us. Tires are helpful for punishing aggressive Meta Knights, but rolls, spotdodges, Shuttle Loop, and all that make it so that we can't reliably do anything on the offensive with them, outside of set up weak mix-ups with Z-Drops and making him think twice about throwing out shorthop aerials.
That said, we have no reliable way to get in on a Meta Knight that sticks to the ground and plays it safe with resetting the situation. Wario's primary method of getting openings ends up being airdodging and run up -> shield, neither of which work well at all against Meta Knight, but still function due to the stupidly overpowered defensive tactics in Brawl.
This matchup is probably -2. If there are more holes I'm missing in the tilt, roll, and shorthop F-Air/U-Air game of Meta Knight, maybe it's -1 because we're fat and strong. It is -not- 0.
That said, we have no reliable way to get in on a Meta Knight that sticks to the ground and plays it safe with resetting the situation. Wario's primary method of getting openings ends up being airdodging and run up -> shield, neither of which work well at all against Meta Knight, but still function due to the stupidly overpowered defensive tactics in Brawl.
This matchup is probably -2. If there are more holes I'm missing in the tilt, roll, and shorthop F-Air/U-Air game of Meta Knight, maybe it's -1 because we're fat and strong. It is -not- 0.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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What about this: Uthrowing a tire from the ground gives it a good deal of height, moreso than juming and Uthrowing. Now there is a moving hitbox on the field, susceptible to MK's tornado but otherwise a small plus to have on the field. Now if MK is camping us, we can get out more tires. And more. And more tires. Tires only degrade when they are not moving, so we can potentially fill the level with bouncing projectiles. When MK thinks he is cool and wipes them out with tornado, we can punish!
I really do think that this matchup has been changed. How good is Diddy Kong without his bananas? He is much less flexible, and the same thing is true I believe for the tires. I've used them in the tournaments I've gone to recently, and it has made a big difference. The MK matchup used to be really tough, and I mean TOUGH. There are a few good MK players in my area, and having the bike and tires at my disposal feels like it evens out the matchup. When they learn how to use tires effectively, it adds another layer of depth to the match in the form of items.
I really do think that this matchup has been changed. How good is Diddy Kong without his bananas? He is much less flexible, and the same thing is true I believe for the tires. I've used them in the tournaments I've gone to recently, and it has made a big difference. The MK matchup used to be really tough, and I mean TOUGH. There are a few good MK players in my area, and having the bike and tires at my disposal feels like it evens out the matchup. When they learn how to use tires effectively, it adds another layer of depth to the match in the form of items.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Why are you comparing tires to nanas?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkqpTIAM9QE
Specifically, 0:39. Cuts through tires. If you are doing other stuff, he shields a tire or uses Mach Tornado and moves away. I guarantee you that you won't be able to keep more than two tires to yourself, and even that is majorly pushing it.
You can hold one and perhaps play around with two, but if he wants to get rid of them, he can get rid of them. They still maintain usefulness in the way that airdodging through the opponent is useful--If you get lucky, you can get in with them, but if the Meta Knight stays close to the ground, you can't do much with them.
Bananas are ******** because they're dangerous when in a "passive" state, they're easy to combo off of with basically no commitment, they're easy to get out safely and keep control of, and they can't be destroyed/negated by attacking them. Tires don't have any of these traits.
Specifically, 0:39. Cuts through tires. If you are doing other stuff, he shields a tire or uses Mach Tornado and moves away. I guarantee you that you won't be able to keep more than two tires to yourself, and even that is majorly pushing it.
You can hold one and perhaps play around with two, but if he wants to get rid of them, he can get rid of them. They still maintain usefulness in the way that airdodging through the opponent is useful--If you get lucky, you can get in with them, but if the Meta Knight stays close to the ground, you can't do much with them.
Bananas are ******** because they're dangerous when in a "passive" state, they're easy to combo off of with basically no commitment, they're easy to get out safely and keep control of, and they can't be destroyed/negated by attacking them. Tires don't have any of these traits.
I'm confused, what exactly do tires to do nado aside from a bit of hitlag from clashing?
How much more height do you get from throwing a tire up from the ground? Like how high would I have to jump to get more than a grounded toss?
edit: now that i think about it I really like having a visual representation. I might try to take some pictures in fixed camera mode for reference later. I almost always jump to throw tires up (i guess i feel safer moving) so it would be nice to know, especially if i can upthrow from moving platform like SV instead of in the air.
How much more height do you get from throwing a tire up from the ground? Like how high would I have to jump to get more than a grounded toss?
edit: now that i think about it I really like having a visual representation. I might try to take some pictures in fixed camera mode for reference later. I almost always jump to throw tires up (i guess i feel safer moving) so it would be nice to know, especially if i can upthrow from moving platform like SV instead of in the air.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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A tire can go through the top of tornado as seen in Project Awesome at around the 2:22 mark. Super cool! Yeah the tornado eats up tires if they are bouncing, sometimes you can bait a tornado if you have a few tires bouncing around. They just can't resist! Haha.
As for the length of the throws, in the tire tutorial I made a while back it shows the height of the tire at around 0:30. That's a really good idea to use fixed camera mode, I totally should have done that to show the height! You can still tell though by the length of time the tire stays airborne.
Tires are different from bananas, definitely. They have different qualities, are less durable and take longer to get out. However, in order to get them out you have to break your bike! Taking the bike out can be very risky, but it can also be a great tool against MK! If you can create some space, the bike can turn into a moving wall projectile! It's great for edgeguarding, just be careful not to get gimped.
Is it or is it not true that MK's aerial attacks cannot destroy a tire? His sword has transcendent priority for many of his attacks, and I don't think transcendent attacks go through the tire. He only has a few attacks that destroy tires, and those are ones with non-transcendent priority. Those moves are tornado and glide attack, at least the ones I can think of now. Am I incorrect?
Are there any matches of a Wario that uses tires, going against a high or top level MK? Besides the few that I've posted, I mean. It would be interesting to see another Wario player use this style, useful as a cross reference. The only one I found is the original inspirational video by Hunger
As for the length of the throws, in the tire tutorial I made a while back it shows the height of the tire at around 0:30. That's a really good idea to use fixed camera mode, I totally should have done that to show the height! You can still tell though by the length of time the tire stays airborne.
Tires are different from bananas, definitely. They have different qualities, are less durable and take longer to get out. However, in order to get them out you have to break your bike! Taking the bike out can be very risky, but it can also be a great tool against MK! If you can create some space, the bike can turn into a moving wall projectile! It's great for edgeguarding, just be careful not to get gimped.
Is it or is it not true that MK's aerial attacks cannot destroy a tire? His sword has transcendent priority for many of his attacks, and I don't think transcendent attacks go through the tire. He only has a few attacks that destroy tires, and those are ones with non-transcendent priority. Those moves are tornado and glide attack, at least the ones I can think of now. Am I incorrect?
Are there any matches of a Wario that uses tires, going against a high or top level MK? Besides the few that I've posted, I mean. It would be interesting to see another Wario player use this style, useful as a cross reference. The only one I found is the original inspirational video by Hunger
Lord Chair
Smash Master
You cannot possibly defend leaving your Bike out against MK. The 'very risky' part greatly outweighs the 'can be a great walling tool if for some reason MK allows you to pick it up'.
Without your Bike you will die.
You will die.
Without your Bike you will die.
You will die.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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LOL! xD yeah maybe if you mess up and get into bad position! You basically want to always be near your bike when it is on the stage. That way if you create a bit of space with a Dair or Nair, you can quickly grab the bike and Dthrow it to create a moving wall. If MK is putting pressure on you, shield and punish with OoS options, let him stale his moves on the bike and try to create space. Wario's quick aerials can whittle down the bike from full health (~30 hp) to zero in a few hits, and that also has the benefit of unstaling your stronger moves like Fsmash and Uair.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
I'm giving up on you.
You're like, ****ing Ivan from Adam's Apples.
You're like, ****ing Ivan from Adam's Apples.
Just as a quick reference before I upload pictures or maybe a video. The numbers represent height in number of custom stage platforms. I just eyeballed the fractions really.
Grounded Tilt Toss - 3.5
SH Toss - 4.0
FH Toss -4.9
Grounded Smash Toss -5.2
Double Jump Toss -6.2
SBJ DJ Toss -9.5
Not really matchup specific, but after I kill my opponent, if I had a tire out, I like to do the SBJ DJ Toss (opponent can't really see where I threw it) and try to bait them into getting hit by it.
Grounded Tilt Toss - 3.5
SH Toss - 4.0
FH Toss -4.9
Grounded Smash Toss -5.2
Double Jump Toss -6.2
SBJ DJ Toss -9.5
Not really matchup specific, but after I kill my opponent, if I had a tire out, I like to do the SBJ DJ Toss (opponent can't really see where I threw it) and try to bait them into getting hit by it.
Iota
Smash Lord
The thing is Pwneroni...Wario is rarely in a good position in this MU. The only times it's possible to break the bike without MK punishing you (which is very easy thanks to his very good ground mobility) is when he dies, and when he's offstage, otherwise you will get punished by a move of his choice. He can pressure you while you're near the bike without staling his moves due to his godlike aerials and if you try to throw the bike down or up to negate the aerial pressure he can FF AD and then punish accordingly. The risks are simply too high while he's onstage, however once he does get offstage you should definitely be breaking the bike to unstale your moves and get the tires, but of course the tires are still situational due to his options being extremely safe. Only an MK that doesn't know the MU will be chasing you recklessly enough with aerials and nado that you can counteract with the tire to a strong attack such as uair or f-smash.
Sorry if I'm not clear with what I'm trying to say I'll post/edit for clarity if I need to.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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I've played against a few good MKs that know the Wario matchup quite well. Gotta say, they don't **** me when I pull the bike out generally. Sure, they score a gimp from time to time but hey that's the risk you take. Let me tell you this: I would much rather have a tire in my hand against MK than not have one.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Who are those MKs. I'd like to play them as well.
Eggz? The Melee Mario? I thought he quit competitive Brawl in, like, '09.
He still owes me $5 from a Brawl money match from years ago. >:[
He still owes me $5 from a Brawl money match from years ago. >:[
Lord Chair
Smash Master
I'm sorry for Eggz is not solid.
I have never heard of Viviff.
edit: and hell, not even your matches against Eggz are proving anything about the value of bike/tires in the MK matchup, you get gimped over and over and he gets in control of the tires about as often if not more often than you
I have never heard of Viviff.
edit: and hell, not even your matches against Eggz are proving anything about the value of bike/tires in the MK matchup, you get gimped over and over and he gets in control of the tires about as often if not more often than you
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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I'm not surprised at your skepticism haha. There's still a long way to go with tires, by no means am I a tire grand master. When I am finished with my work, Wario will be the best and most fun to watch in the game
Anyways, I will concede that the matchup between Wario and MK is probably not even yet. I would agree to +1 in MK's favor and -1 for Wario. It is not as bad as -2, though.
Anyways, I will concede that the matchup between Wario and MK is probably not even yet. I would agree to +1 in MK's favor and -1 for Wario. It is not as bad as -2, though.
hunger!
Smash Champion
I 3 stocked seibrik's MK at apex with my style of play. Then his d3 took a game off and i won the set. No video though, but yeah. Tires against top mk's is a must imo.