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Wario's Match-Ups!
- Thread starter xzx
- Start date
Lord Chair
Smash Master
iirc the official panel was unanimous on -2
waldorf2007
Smash Ace
same as labernash, I have yet to see a wario make it -1, so I'm calling it -2. Not to say that -1 is impossible. so there's....hope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ldFt9HqOuE
Japanese Warios don't seem to care about pulling tires much.
Japanese Warios don't seem to care about pulling tires much.
Why does that Meta Knight feel the need to approach? That's just dumb.
Iota
Smash Lord
Japan doesn't really play Wario outside of doubles for the most part. The Warios that do play singles aren't really that great from what I've seen either sadly. That MKvWario vid Tesh posted is a prime example of how MK shouldn't be playing the MU imo
There's a difference between "doing it wrong" and "doing it wrong in my extremely unconstructive, limited view towards this game". Almost everybody is confusing this because everybody thinks he knows everything better than everybody else. Their MKs don't "do it wrong", it's just that their Warios are actually good at this game - walling them off isn't the "end of everything" in this match-up.
Selcia is better than any MK most of you have played against and the same is true for 2010 Kaos. Both opted to not just wall-out the Warios they played against [one of them being arguably the best there has ever been up to now] because there's a little more to the match-up than that.
Selcia is better than any MK most of you have played against and the same is true for 2010 Kaos. Both opted to not just wall-out the Warios they played against [one of them being arguably the best there has ever been up to now] because there's a little more to the match-up than that.
I'd be afraid to camp a Wario THAT good at landing farts. If you look at game 1, he died to farts all 3 stocks and it wasn't like he screwed up horribly. He did what you might expect any MK to do when you get close. He Naired OoS (got farted), he shuttle looped (got farted) and then he rolled (got farted). You know how MK "shouldn't do it" but do you have some reference of how MK should do it? Because I have yet to see a Wario from the U.S with that level of precision.
Labernash
Smash Lord
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Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
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Really great Japanese Wario! I really like how he was super conservative with his tires, better that then just throwing them willy nilly. That's a better place to start IMO, then slowly branch out to more complex tire tactics like Uthrowing for a tire raaaaain!!! Tires are really great against MK, and I like how Abadango was careful with his bike out too. He got those tires quickly and safely
Labernash
Smash Lord
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Diddeh Kawng!!!!!
All I know on this is Shield Naner, jump up, insta-throw down, FF Clap. That right there got me 60% on Dojo's Diddy, then I landed a waft.
The only way I can ever get stocks off of people who are ATLEAST three times my skill, like Dojo, is with Waft. It's unbeleivably important, a factor to keep thinking about through out the whole match, and even more important on Diddy, as an early kill can save you from the 120% lead he can get just for lulz.
I'm going to MM a Diddy, that I'm close to in skill level (he's better), in one of two upcoming tourneys. I'll see how that goes, but for now, I'm just going to say it's an even Match Up.
All I know on this is Shield Naner, jump up, insta-throw down, FF Clap. That right there got me 60% on Dojo's Diddy, then I landed a waft.
The only way I can ever get stocks off of people who are ATLEAST three times my skill, like Dojo, is with Waft. It's unbeleivably important, a factor to keep thinking about through out the whole match, and even more important on Diddy, as an early kill can save you from the 120% lead he can get just for lulz.
I'm going to MM a Diddy, that I'm close to in skill level (he's better), in one of two upcoming tourneys. I'll see how that goes, but for now, I'm just going to say it's an even Match Up.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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Whoa nice Labernash :D I agree that Waft is very important in this matchup, especially since you can set it up with either bananas or tires! I actually think this one may be a bit in Wario's favor. He can eat bananas if he wants, his item game is reeeeeally good PLUS you can get the bike and tires on the field!
Wario's bike, when stationary, blocks bananas thrown on the ground. Tires can bounce, be used for stage control and thrown at diddy (tires do more damage than bananas, pretty sure). It's really fun to have the bike, 2+ tires AND bananas on the field at once. I thought items were banned in Brawl! xD
Wario's bike, when stationary, blocks bananas thrown on the ground. Tires can bounce, be used for stage control and thrown at diddy (tires do more damage than bananas, pretty sure). It's really fun to have the bike, 2+ tires AND bananas on the field at once. I thought items were banned in Brawl! xD
Lord Chair
Smash Master
that is, in fact, a horrible situation
you cannot keep control of so many items at once without compromising your own safety, diddy can
you cannot keep control of so many items at once without compromising your own safety, diddy can
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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It's way intense haha. As always with the bike and tires, it is a risk vs reward situation. It is more risky to have the items on the field, true. However the compensation for that risk is the opportunity to use the items in an effective manner. It is possible, but not for the faint of heart.
The matchup without tires is even, I would say. Wario can still use bananas effectively, and he can ride the bike to create space and even drive over grounded bananas! Be careful though, as bananas thrown directly at Wario when he is riding will knock him off. Wario can also eat bananas to take them out of play for a moment or two.
The matchup without tires is even, I would say. Wario can still use bananas effectively, and he can ride the bike to create space and even drive over grounded bananas! Be careful though, as bananas thrown directly at Wario when he is riding will knock him off. Wario can also eat bananas to take them out of play for a moment or two.
BPx
Smash Lord
i could probably do a writeup later, but this MU is in wario's favor, 55:45 imo.
problem is diddy can hit wario for 130-40% and still have a hard time getting a kill. wario can land a few claps/grabs and put diddy in waft KO%(not to mention if diddy uses diddy flip, its a free fart). and in regards to item(banana) use, throwing bananas away or up so diddy can't get them is the most effective use i've found. also be careful chomping nanas, any smart diddy will punish you in your cooldown lag if they're nearby. takes a little bit to learn the spacing but nair gimps barrels as well.
problem is diddy can hit wario for 130-40% and still have a hard time getting a kill. wario can land a few claps/grabs and put diddy in waft KO%(not to mention if diddy uses diddy flip, its a free fart). and in regards to item(banana) use, throwing bananas away or up so diddy can't get them is the most effective use i've found. also be careful chomping nanas, any smart diddy will punish you in your cooldown lag if they're nearby. takes a little bit to learn the spacing but nair gimps barrels as well.
BPx
Smash Lord
I dont know, I really disagree with your bike/tire theory. Tires are such a weak projectile, if you want to try to play the item game with diddy I think taking a nana and playing keepaway is more effective.
If someone could change the "Currently Discussing:" to Diddy Kong that would be really appreciated.
About the MU: I would say it's a dead even MU. I know that Wario can eat the bananas, but he should only eat grounded/aerials ones. Never think of using Chomp when Diddy Kong has a banana in his hand. Just don't. Wario will be punished BAD for doing so. And don't forget that Wario has the longest tripping animation (and slowest jump tied with Bowser) which means that Diddy Kong can do severe things to us if he cathes us with a banana. Use the bike in this MU a lot. Bike runs over grounded bananas and it can be used as a wall (when lying down) to stop the bananas. Having the bike on the ground is a great tool for stopping Diddy Kong to throw the bananas at you. But never ever ride the bike if Diddy Kong is holding a banana. The tires are also good in this MU. They can stop the bananas (do the tires disappear?) when bouncing/tossed. Wario's banana game is also good (especially if combining them with tires). Tossing the bananas upwards (or avoiding them) and keeping an aerial game is key in this MU, together with the bike.
Diddy Kong can rack up some serious samage on Wario but I find it hard for Diddy Kong to kill Wario (without a banana). Wario can at least kill Diddy Kong at higher percentages (excluding waft). I would say this MU is 0.
-----------------------------
Labernash: 0
Pwneroni: +1
BPx: +1
xzx: 0
About the MU: I would say it's a dead even MU. I know that Wario can eat the bananas, but he should only eat grounded/aerials ones. Never think of using Chomp when Diddy Kong has a banana in his hand. Just don't. Wario will be punished BAD for doing so. And don't forget that Wario has the longest tripping animation (and slowest jump tied with Bowser) which means that Diddy Kong can do severe things to us if he cathes us with a banana. Use the bike in this MU a lot. Bike runs over grounded bananas and it can be used as a wall (when lying down) to stop the bananas. Having the bike on the ground is a great tool for stopping Diddy Kong to throw the bananas at you. But never ever ride the bike if Diddy Kong is holding a banana. The tires are also good in this MU. They can stop the bananas (do the tires disappear?) when bouncing/tossed. Wario's banana game is also good (especially if combining them with tires). Tossing the bananas upwards (or avoiding them) and keeping an aerial game is key in this MU, together with the bike.
Diddy Kong can rack up some serious samage on Wario but I find it hard for Diddy Kong to kill Wario (without a banana). Wario can at least kill Diddy Kong at higher percentages (excluding waft). I would say this MU is 0.
-----------------------------
Labernash: 0
Pwneroni: +1
BPx: +1
xzx: 0
Lord Chair
Smash Master
I'm not quite sure how I feel about this matchup.
What this boils down to is, we can camp pretty safely in this matchup, and proper control of one banana means that all he can really do for safe damage is F-Air and banana -> D-Smash/grab. With our solid glide toss downward and silly aerial mobility, we can play with bananas pretty well, and it's not hard for us to tag him with an F-Smash/grab afterward. It is also rather easy to land Waft on a recovering Diddy Kong, which tends to make KOs a non-issue for us. Even if most of our item throws are slow, our aerial mobility makes up for it, as we can create pressure by following behind it or landing and seeing how Diddy reacts to it. Diddy can't just wait for an aerial and glide toss afterward, since we have Bite and potential for ambiguous cross-ups. Diddy has to make lots of little decisions if you're playing correctly.
The real issue is that his defensive options are very fast and difficult for Wario to keep up with. We can't punish his rolling away from us on reaction, and his glide toss motions allow him to space F-Air to keep us out. He also has very safe pokes that make it difficult for us to get something started in the first place. Diddy can reset the situation pretty much whenever he wants, and that's what he should do almost anytime he feels threatened.
Another point to keep in mind is that too many AND too few platforms can both work in Diddy's favor in this matchup. Too many, and he can camp underneath them in almost any position, shafting our ability to Z-Drop bananas near him and generally approach from the air. Too few, and it starts to get frustrating, since we're always at risk at least a little bit, and he controls so much of the stage at some points.
That said, I prefer to take Diddy to Smashville, as the platform is great for camping while moving out of the way when we want to go in.
I think it's even at worst, but our advantages are many, and they're not very complicated. I will get behind +1.
What this boils down to is, we can camp pretty safely in this matchup, and proper control of one banana means that all he can really do for safe damage is F-Air and banana -> D-Smash/grab. With our solid glide toss downward and silly aerial mobility, we can play with bananas pretty well, and it's not hard for us to tag him with an F-Smash/grab afterward. It is also rather easy to land Waft on a recovering Diddy Kong, which tends to make KOs a non-issue for us. Even if most of our item throws are slow, our aerial mobility makes up for it, as we can create pressure by following behind it or landing and seeing how Diddy reacts to it. Diddy can't just wait for an aerial and glide toss afterward, since we have Bite and potential for ambiguous cross-ups. Diddy has to make lots of little decisions if you're playing correctly.
The real issue is that his defensive options are very fast and difficult for Wario to keep up with. We can't punish his rolling away from us on reaction, and his glide toss motions allow him to space F-Air to keep us out. He also has very safe pokes that make it difficult for us to get something started in the first place. Diddy can reset the situation pretty much whenever he wants, and that's what he should do almost anytime he feels threatened.
Another point to keep in mind is that too many AND too few platforms can both work in Diddy's favor in this matchup. Too many, and he can camp underneath them in almost any position, shafting our ability to Z-Drop bananas near him and generally approach from the air. Too few, and it starts to get frustrating, since we're always at risk at least a little bit, and he controls so much of the stage at some points.
That said, I prefer to take Diddy to Smashville, as the platform is great for camping while moving out of the way when we want to go in.
I think it's even at worst, but our advantages are many, and they're not very complicated. I will get behind +1.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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Honestly tires are way underrated at the moment. I LOVE the range that they give Wario! Let's say both you and Diddy Kong are facing each other, each with your own projectile in hand. If Wario throws the tire as Diddy throws his banana, you will trade hits and be in the same position. The difference is, tires can do up to 13% in one throw, while bananas do very little.
With Wario's limited range, getting in one someone's defense is one of our biggest obstacles. Normally we have to poke in and be super safe, but with tires it makes being aggressive not only possible, but also really freaking good! With bouncing projectiles in close proximity to the opponent, you can wail away on their shield and then push them into the tire. Then you can either escape safely or go more aggro.
Tires CAN be a weak projectile, if used in a wasteful manner. If they merely touch a shield or hitbox, they disappear. Thus it is necessary to be conservative with your tires! Try grabbing a tire and just waiting to see what your opponent does. More often than not this option is one of the best Wario has!
If your opponent is trying to camp, Uthrow the tire can help with stage control and limit their options.
If your opponent is trying to be aggressive, you can dodge their attacks and drop a tire on their head, scoring a follow up hit and possible tire combo.
If your opponent is staying in their shield a lot, try z dropping a tire over them and falling with a bite. Munch munch munch mmmmmm...
If your opponent is spacing aerials, Fthrow the tire in between their hits to score some damage. The tire bounces back towards you if it hits them, and often they wont expect you to instant Fthrow again. You can poke your enemy from long range, then regrab the tire and punish when they try to punish you!
All of my smash buddies agree that tires make Wario better. It is an increased risk, as they are smart and take advantage when my bike is on the stage. However, I believe that smart and safe tire play more than makes up for the added risk. Capital, my good sir! Safe and cautious bike breaking, paired with smart and safe tire play = NEXT LEVEL WARIO!
With Wario's limited range, getting in one someone's defense is one of our biggest obstacles. Normally we have to poke in and be super safe, but with tires it makes being aggressive not only possible, but also really freaking good! With bouncing projectiles in close proximity to the opponent, you can wail away on their shield and then push them into the tire. Then you can either escape safely or go more aggro.
Tires CAN be a weak projectile, if used in a wasteful manner. If they merely touch a shield or hitbox, they disappear. Thus it is necessary to be conservative with your tires! Try grabbing a tire and just waiting to see what your opponent does. More often than not this option is one of the best Wario has!
If your opponent is trying to camp, Uthrow the tire can help with stage control and limit their options.
If your opponent is trying to be aggressive, you can dodge their attacks and drop a tire on their head, scoring a follow up hit and possible tire combo.
If your opponent is staying in their shield a lot, try z dropping a tire over them and falling with a bite. Munch munch munch mmmmmm...
If your opponent is spacing aerials, Fthrow the tire in between their hits to score some damage. The tire bounces back towards you if it hits them, and often they wont expect you to instant Fthrow again. You can poke your enemy from long range, then regrab the tire and punish when they try to punish you!
All of my smash buddies agree that tires make Wario better. It is an increased risk, as they are smart and take advantage when my bike is on the stage. However, I believe that smart and safe tire play more than makes up for the added risk. Capital, my good sir! Safe and cautious bike breaking, paired with smart and safe tire play = NEXT LEVEL WARIO!
Xatic
Smash Lord
I cannot really put a whole lot of input into the match-up that you guys haven't already said.
I don't have a whole lot of experience in the matchup since the only diddys I've played are Zinoto and SauceBoss (SB was back in 2010)
I just try to use the bananas against him and see how it works. I like using bike to troll my way over bananas and hope I can get in.
I'm pretty bad at the MU tbh. But I can agree with it being even.
I don't have a whole lot of experience in the matchup since the only diddys I've played are Zinoto and SauceBoss (SB was back in 2010)
I just try to use the bananas against him and see how it works. I like using bike to troll my way over bananas and hope I can get in.
I'm pretty bad at the MU tbh. But I can agree with it being even.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
The panel actually has experience playing good MKs.
Why are you comparing numbers like that? You're setting yourself up to ignore what general matchup knowledge points to.
Diddy is slightly in our favor. If it makes you feel better, think of it as 0. Meta Knight is definitely -2, though, make no mistake.
Diddy is slightly in our favor. If it makes you feel better, think of it as 0. Meta Knight is definitely -2, though, make no mistake.
BPx
Smash Lord
0:
1:
2:
look at mks +2s... i feel like wario does significantly better against metaknight than most of those characters. wario definitely gets beat in this matchup, but his grab range, fart, and the pressure he puts on mk when underneath him makes the matchup bearable. it still might be -2(cos mk is so good), but i'm learning more towards -1.5 the more i play it
Lord Chair
Smash Master
behold the big ****ing deal of the flawed new ratio systemThe difference between Diddy and MK is certainly not a whole 3 points though. MK -1 / -2, Diddy 0
Again, comparing to other numbers only serves to distract people from how the matchup actually plays out.
As long as you're going on that line of reasoning, though, if Toon Link is -2, so are we. Mostly-bad ground game, good air mobility, nice recovery, a few strong KO moves.
Our grab range doesn't help much, since his sword keeps us at a distance. I'm not sure how we get in a position to pressure Meta Knight when he's above us since he can always glide or Mach Tornado to safety.
As long as you're going on that line of reasoning, though, if Toon Link is -2, so are we. Mostly-bad ground game, good air mobility, nice recovery, a few strong KO moves.
Our grab range doesn't help much, since his sword keeps us at a distance. I'm not sure how we get in a position to pressure Meta Knight when he's above us since he can always glide or Mach Tornado to safety.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
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I've played several good MKs, and it's not a 70-30 matchup. Lord Chair do you have any footage against top level MKs? Or know of any matches that really showcase the matchup? I am still very skeptical, a good MK video may help convince me.