What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

[da K.I.D.]

i like that idea.

 

[lil cj]

start by reading my thread, (seems that thats already done)
and watching infizzie's spin dash video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ34M-Bdo6k

Thanks
That really helped me out

lil cj was the one who witnessed my first triple spring-cancelled-aerial combo.



and he switched mains shortly after.

not that they're related by any means lol.

lol...
That was epic!

 

[infomon]

Sonic music should be reserved for the combo videos.

Also just put it down somewhere, unless we can find a way to keep the 2nd jump, there's no point in trying to go in-depth into it, just leave a sticky-note somewhere that says "a SD/SC in the air after double jumps will not restore your jumps - Beware!"

But it's more than that. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AixRN5Lbm_I
At 2:29, watch what happens very carefully. dNes dies when he couldn't jump-cancel his spindash.

He lost the jump-data at 2:31, when he hops onto the stage from the ledge. That was an empty down-B charge, which never even achieved its aura. Even though there's no visible distinction between the starting-lag and ending-lag of an empty down-B, if you land in the starting-lag your spindash jump-data is reset. Unfortunately, dNes lands during the ending-lag, so it counts as landing on the stage in a spindash. And you can walk around the stage all you want after that, but your spindash jump-data remains until you either jump, run off a platform, or get hit. ie. if dNes had even just shorthopped before he charged his fatal spindash, he would've been able to jump-cancel it.

Also, screech-stops that land on the ground count as "being in a spindash" so your jump-data is not restored. Even shield-cancelled ASCs don't restore it

 

[Kinzer]

At 2:29, I just see DNes being out out of his SDR by G&W's fair, but everything else seems legit.

D*** Sakurai leaving so many bugs in Sonic's B-moves, as if Air tripping wasn't bad enough...

Speaking of air tripping, beware of Delfino Plaza, I've had it happen to me after I sprang through the platform on flight and just barely caught on it... when I went to go take the battle offstage with my opponent, once the jump animatino was over, Sonic starts doing front-flips and immedietly I thoguht "OH SHI-!" *boom*

 

[infomon]

Err, no I meant start watching at 2:29. It's 2:31-2:32 where he dooms himself, in the hop from the ledge onto the stage. Then he runs around and fights a bit, then SDRs off the stage..... into self-destruct death. Because he couldn't jump-cancel.

Edit: And yeah, airtripping also really really sucks. But now I can usually identify if I've airtripped from just looking out for it carefully. Just empty-shorthop after and you're ok, although sometimes that alone puts me in a bad spot :/

 

[Kinzer]

That's not fair, as far as I can see (the video goes by rather fast...), it seemed like he ended the empty SC in the air, what's even worse is you can't HA or Spring cancel out of it... All the more reason now to keep track of your jumps...

When are we going to find and AT good enough to make SONIC be able to compete with MK's brokeness? :/

 

[memphischains]

we have to not suck.

not sucking > "ATs"

 

[Kinzer]

OMG why didn't I see this before?

Good s*** Memphis.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the only thing that can compete with MKs brokeness is snakes nades and tilts

 

[~TBS~]

the only thing that can compete with MKs brokeness is snakes nades and tilts

^^this. the only thing sonic has is side taunt. snakes utilt is broken, and i am sure everyone here agrees. someone was playing a snake the other day(me watching) tilt, nade, tilt, nade, mine in the ground, C4, ****. the other dude was screwed because he got 2 stocked and they were zero deaths.

 

[da K.I.D.]

funny thing about that though is that when you spring to get away from snake and he goes to land camp you for teh uptilt, oddly enough back air beats it the majority of the time.

theres so many snakes and MKs around me, i feel like those are the only matches i even know anymore.

 

[Kalm]

I'm pro-MK ban, btw.

It's just sad to see because you know those *******s are only playing the guys to win. About half the entire tourney scene is dedicated to Snake and especially MK. It's stupid, I can't believe he wasn't at least temporarily banned.

 

[Espy Rose]

funny thing about that though is that when you spring to get away from snake and he goes to land camp you for teh uptilt, oddly enough back air beats it the majority of the time.

theres so many snakes and MKs around me, i feel like those are the only matches i even know anymore.

Lucky for me my town has only one Snake and mediocre MKs.

However, I want to play higher leveled MKs and Snakes, if anything, to make my reaction times faster.

 

[memphischains]

Lucky for me my town has only one Snake and mediocre MKs.

However, I want to play higher leveled MKs and Snakes, if anything, to make my reaction times faster.

Snakes are easy

Mks are gay

everyone else is a breezy

and hhkj'

 

[~TBS~]

i agree with memphis. when i fight snake, its not much of a problem...Everyone else is neutral, except Marth...

 

[infomon]

I made a tiny video showing off the Spin Dash Air Pivot (SDAP, I guess... crummy acronym, oh well). Since I think it's really cool and useful. It's not the best demo, just a clip from a vs. CPU match where I was experimenting with it..... but just to give an idea.

[SDAP!]

 

[Kinzer]

I fight so many Snakes, the matchup is easy if you can work around their super-long tilts and Nade camps, it's ridiculous.

Also Snake's have a fanbase, the Metal Gear series, that's reason enough to play Snake, him being 2nd on top of the list is just icing on the cake. Meta Gay has little to no fanbase, and a lot of the people who play him know that he is broken/cheap/QQ. I mean really, MK is like Shadow, he is an anti-hero, how can anybody follow a person like that?

Ah well, at least Sega had a nice back-story to Shadow.

Also I am aware of Sdap, I just don't have a lot of it in my game, which I honestly need to do more.

 

[lil cj]

Doesnt Sonic have trouble with ROB and ICs too?
ROB takes forever to kill and the ICs completely mess up Sonic's ground game

 

[Kinzer]

Sonic can literally **** R.O.B. with multiple strings of attacks since he is a big target, and can't really get the opponent out of him if they get inside him, and as for IC's... dont get grabbed, and Sonic may just have the advantage.

Inorite? Crazy stuff!!

 

[Tenki]

@infzy:

a while ago, LuCky posted 'new videos' and kind of made it sound like he was gonna play Brawl again.

he made a bunch of noticeable uses of gimping and such with side-B pivots in midair :3

@kinzer:
ROB uses F-air --> you = ??

 

[Camalange]

OH SDAP!

I like it.

 

[Kinzer]

Bah Tenki, Spring to get away from Fair if necessary, and R.O.B. still has a huge blindspot under him that can only be covered by a laggy Dair and a Nair that takes time to get to that blindspot, not to mention you should be under him anyway, of course R.O.B. has that WoP with his Fair.

Sonic still does not have trouble with R.O.B. no matter how you look at it, the usual stuff R.O.B. uses to harass a lot of characters, Sonic can easily get around with.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic still does not have trouble with R.O.B. no matter how you look at it, the usual stuff R.O.B. uses to harass a lot of characters, Sonic can easily get around with.

That's the same in basically every match-up though.

The unique thing about Sonic is that he basically always takes away certain character strats/advantages from the opposition.

Take the Mario match up. Mario can't juggle Sonic, can't edgeguard him, can't camp him. Despite his three major attributes screwed over by Sonic, he's still at best neutral (I personally believe it's Mario's advantage though)

The reason Sonic has bad matchups is because although he takes away these advantages, he leaves the opponents down to the 'bare bones' of their gameplay, and in most cases most character's outclass Sonic's.

I do agree with Ice Climbers being neutral at worst though. I don't think you're giving ROB enough credit. It's slightly in his advantage IMO (ehh, like 45:55), it's just his long range ground game that's gay.

 

[Kinzer]

I obviously don't play good R.O.B.s then, because I have little trouble with them.

Also Roy thank you for further comfirming to me that Sonic sucks.

 

[Camalange]

I know a ROB who makes the match up feel like it's 70:30.
His smashboards account is Darth Waffles. I used to think the match up was a lot more neutral until I started playing this guy frequently.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ROB really can brickwall you with jabs down tilt and forward tilt (has more range than snakes 1st f-tilt btw)

its weird, but if they cant camp correctly they will get tore up

 

[infomon]

@infzy:

a while ago, LuCky posted 'new videos' and kind of made it sound like he was gonna play Brawl again.

he made a bunch of noticeable uses of gimping and such with side-B pivots in midair :3

lolol, awesome then, srry for incessant rampaging about da minor tech :3

.... wait, did you already tell me that somewhere?? .... it sounds too... familiar....... ugh my memory sucks sometimes lulz

Edit: it's still cool tho

 

[da K.I.D.]

i just watched the vid and it is pretty sexy and it has the added mindgame of making the spin sound, but not attacking in ball form

 

[lil cj]

I think I discovered a new mindgame/AT with Sonic...
Im not sure if this has been discovered yet or if its just common knowledge
....But while practicing with Sonic for about an hour...
I was trying to do a spinshot(which I cant do right yet....lol...help)
And I pressed jump too early while still holding side B
He jumped straight up(like he always does if u mess up spinshot)...but before he hit the ground I pressed side B again and he went back to doing spin dash....with out any landing lag
so then I repeated this over and over into a chain of spin dash jumps and landing back into spin dash.
If this has already been discovered then I appologize

 

[da K.I.D.]

even if it has been discovered, its good to bring nuance stuff like that to our attention every once in a while, since we might forget some times.

 

[infomon]

Yeah, chaining SDJs (err, VSDJs I guess) like that is totally fun, you basically stay in the aura ball the whole time.
You can do it with either side-B or down-B, but side-B is faster and much easier too.

 

[lil cj]

Cool
I didnt know Sonic could do that
I was just tryna do spinshot and messed up....lol

Edit: Jus a quick question...wat is ASC used for?

 

[da K.I.D.]

approaching and mindgaming people into getting shield grabbed

 

[infomon]

ASC is a great attack; it has good knockback (can KO at high %s lol, with the first hit), you can hit multiple times with good spacing if you want, it combos into tons of stuff (SDR, SDJ, aerial, footstool, or any combination thereof), you can control aerial mobility while it's charging, you can jump-cancel it with your 2nd jump, it moves fast and you can control its movement, it can be used for recovery, and it's great for momentum-cancelling to survive long-distance KOs.



Edit: Oh yeah and its best attribute of all, shield-cancelling its landing (including into grab, spot-dodge, or dodge-roll)...

ASC is too good

 

[Browny]

dtilt > ASC

10failures

 

[Tucker!]

Yeaa shield canceling the down B is a good combo starter, you can footstool outta of it if you hit them, or you can cancel after the attack to stop for a second and then keep comboing, also a good move is to sheild cancel down B and when you get out of it do sonics snake dash, it will catch them by complete surprise if you cancel the move correctly

 

[Camalange]

Yeaa shield canceling the down B is a good combo starter, you can footstool outta of it if you hit them, or you can cancel after the attack to stop for a second and then keep comboing, also a good move is to sheild cancel down B and when you get out of it do sonics snake dash, it will catch them by complete surprise if you cancel the move correctly

You can't shield cancel the DownB, you shield cancel the SideB. The only way to shield cancel DownB, is if you do ASC and hold shield as it hits the ground.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its obvious that hes talking airial down b...

 

[Camalange]

Seeing as he just said "shielding the down b" it's not that obvious... When I see knew users I like to make sure they know the ropes. Next time though I'll just assume he read the whole thing, seeing as he did post in the stickies.

 

[Jim Morrison]

bump for top sticky so people may read? BTW, I think SDR isn't all bad. Fun approach is not htiting with SDR, but SDJ too early, fastfall a B-air or any aerial :D