What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

[Tenki]

ASC in general? Yes, it could be. IMO you shouldn't start it (or any spin dashes) too far away from your opponent, since it gives them some time to react.

ASC usage discussion questions for anyone interested:
1) How far (from the enemy) do you usually start ASC's?
2) Where in the jump do you usually start ASC's (on the way up, apex, on the way down?)
3) Vs grounded opponents: Do you tend to shield the landing now? If so, what move do you usually do out of a cancelled ASC?
4) Vs aerial opponents: Do you tend to follow-up your ASC with an aerial or do you just go back to the ground?

for me,
1- I usually start my ASC's somewhat close, or at least, the closest point I can be to be able to release it from my jump and land on/near them.
2- I tend to do mine near the tops of jumps, leaning towards the downward motion. I usually charge as I go up but I don't release until they're in the trajectory's path.
3- I think I shield too much now. Overhype from the 'new technique', really. There's alot of mindgame potential lost if your opponent expects you to shield the landing all the time ._.; But I tend to back roll after ASC's. If I go through them, I switch sides. If I land in front, I create space. Come to think of it, I should try not shielding and go for (im)perfect combos lol.
4- More often than not, I usually try to follow up, but there are times when I just jump and ASC for damage =.=

 

[Infamous Chimera]

That helps. Thanks Tenki.

If I can recall, I have done ASC cancels for the occasional mind-game against some of my friends. It helps at times, but it has also screwed me over.

 

[FrostByte]

ASC in general? Yes, it could be. IMO you shouldn't start it (or any spin dashes) too far away from your opponent, since it gives them some time to react.

ASC usage discussion questions for anyone interested:
1) How far (from the enemy) do you usually start ASC's?
2) Where in the jump do you usually start ASC's (on the way up, apex, on the way down?)
3) Vs grounded opponents: Do you tend to shield the landing now? If so, what move do you usually do out of a cancelled ASC?
4) Vs aerial opponents: Do you tend to follow-up your ASC with an aerial or do you just go back to the ground?

1)I use it as a bit of an approach, so almost right in their face.
2)Shorthop most of the time. Full jump if I feel like mixing things up.
3) Yeah, grab is too good. I sometimes use Upsmash out of shield at 0% or a uair. Against bigger opponents, you can use a SH ASC to full jumped ASC to aerial, but it's really situational.

I also sometimes just go through them if they try to grab me and get the 9-11% grounded hit.

4)Always an aerial. I will always shield cancel after an aerial hit, because there's no point in continuing the Spindash, You won't get anything from it but poorer control.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

That helps. Thanks Tenki.

If I can recall, I have done ASC cancels for the occasional mind-game against some of my friends. It helps at times, but it has also screwed me over.

Any technique will do that at first though. The trick is learning when to use it.

 

[mStRy]

*****this is R4ZE btw, i am on my cousin's computer and neglected to log out*********

uhhh i have been very succesful in using this against humans. I went to a tournament and used it against players like XYZ.

I fought a metaknight player RX- and we were both at higher than 150% at the last life, he just happened to land a kill first. The ASC sheild grab technique made a huge difference in my sonic v MK game. It also works really well against olimar, you just have to execute it a bit high on olimar so you don't get grabbed out of it.

It's simple to incorperate the ACS- sheild grab into the game, u just have to release the SC at the right height. Most characters have a little dead zone around where sonic's utilt hits, and that is exactly where the ASC attacks them. Obviously practice makes perfect, I am getting really good at it.

Most of the time i am able to atleast grab players. and most the the time , they know its coming. The only counter I have seen is when the enemy grabs sonic before they get grabbed. But if executed properly, it isn't possible to grab sonic out of this attack.


like frostbyte said, most of the time it's better to sheild cancel ASC for control reasons. The only reason to let it keep going is if you plan on smacking your opponent with a grounded spindash.


I'll try to get some videos today of me using it, and it working on my opponents.


*****this is R4ZE btw, i am on my cousin's computer and neglected to log out*********

 

[Tenki]

you can get grabbed out of it if their grab box is high enough :[

tether grabbers can't get Sonic during ASC though, if that helps... Olimar, Link, Samus, Lucas...

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Hey, sup.

I discovered a sure-hit way to do the Spinshot: ASC + C-stick (any direction other than down).

If this isn't old news, credit me D:

Anyways, a good thing about this is when you want to quickly use a Homing Attack to edgeguard. If you use the C-stick the other way you're Spinshotting (as in: Spinshotting left and C-sticking right and vice and versa) you'll do a "reversal B" if you're fast enough.

So, even if you miss, the HA will still get you closer to the stage. If the HA hit, you may even be able to connect a BAIR as they try to recover.

k

 

[FrostByte]

Sorry man, already posted that in one of the spinshot threads somewhere.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Ah, nice, nice. I knew I had read something like that around here (but for some reason I thought I had mistaken it with the ground SC + C-stick up). =P

 

[BananaNut]

Thanks for putting this up, it really helps.

 

[R4ZE]

you can get grabbed out of it if their grab box is high enough :[

tether grabbers can't get Sonic during ASC though, if that helps... Olimar, Link, Samus, Lucas...

isn't it dafe to say, that if their grab is really high, then their character space is also pretty high? and given the .. downward angle of the atatck, u could still ASC over their grab and still connect the roll. granted, you wouldnt be able to sheild grab.


i think the trcik works like this:

if your fighting a tether grabber, aim high to go over the tether grab.

and on a high grabber, aim low, so u can grab them before they grab you.


it's hard for me to explain it mechanicly. because i just use it and it works, and i use it in different ways.. just to get a feel for how it works and doesent. I need to get a video really bad, but i wont have any oponents to fight until probobly next week =/

 

[messiahfreak2000]

i've been wondering lately, why am i rarely seeing anyone use the >b shield cancel? is just underused, is it just plain not useful? i only see it used like every 4 videos i watch (recent ones).

 

[R4ZE]

i havent thought about that in a while. tho it can be helpful. usually its easier for me to pivot grab than it is to running and side b sheild cancel into an attack. plus it has a small window for punishment.


and if u get hit while in sheidl usually ur no longer in grab range... my 2 cents.

 

[Tenki]

It's partly because it's being overshadowed by other moves, or just simply being forgotten. It did cause a bit of hype when we first like... noticed it.

But yeah, it could see more use.

Just don't 'use' it too much (spam)

Added a mini Side-B analysis thingy, then a general move usage section, in the 3rd post, which is no longer a placeholder.


In case it's tl;dr mode:
start spindashes closer to your opponent >_>

 

[Browny]

the side b - shield cancel is just something we are gonna have to force into the back of our minds like stutter stepping every fsmash. its one of those things which for me, i can go entire matches forgetting to use it, then when i deliberately do it, it almost always works.

only problem is what move to use out of it. it practically guarantees a free grab on the opponent but if they do something like a jab they might be able to cancel it quick enough to prevent you doing anything else out of it, most notably and fsmash.

i use this quite a bit against my brother playing falco, he likes to try and stop approaches with a reflector, shield cancelled side-b into fsmash is just too good :D doesnt work too well against someone like pikachu though

 

[messiahfreak2000]

thats what i thought. for someone like fox, falco and wolf, baiting them into fsmahing with the shield cancel is priceless. takes some major mindgaming tho, mixing it up with dash attacks. it does have its weaknesses, if the opponent can see it coming or reacts fast enough, a free smash/grab to sonics face (i should know).

 

[TwinkleToes]

I really disagree there, browny. Since you can use priority of side-b to get through almost anything there's no point to shielding most of the time. An exception might be Luigi and Mario's fireballs, Sheik's needle storm, and prolonged grab attacks like inhale or bite. So, a few characters not withstanding, it is not necessary to shield cancel your spin dash even for mind games.

 

[R4ZE]

sonic has too many advanced tricks for me to remember them all in a single match... lol

i just think that every1 is pretty far from mastering sonic. i am working on it tho =P

 

[da K.I.D.]

i would really like to see this in action vs. a human opponent

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

I'm sure you guys have noticed this, but here goes:
> while you're charging the spin charge, with the C-stick set to smash, if you hit it down you'll jump straight up as if you do the spin dash and hit up normally.
I'm not sure why it works like this or even what the potential uses are.

 

[Browny]

I really disagree there, browny. Since you can use priority of side-b to get through almost anything there's no point to shielding most of the time. An exception might be Luigi and Mario's fireballs, Sheik's needle storm, and prolonged grab attacks like inhale or bite. So, a few characters not withstanding, it is not necessary to shield cancel your spin dash even for mind games.

but think in a risk vs reward scenario. you run up to the enemy, charge side b and roll behind them. this looks exactly the same as a dash attack, against people with moves such as counter, reflector, inhales, laggy fsmash, A-a-a to try and stop it etc this will give sonic more than enough time to get behind them and get any attack off. if you hit them with the side b you might get 10-20 damage off it it connects with an aerial, but only rolling behind them gives a relatively free shot at an fsmash against anyone who doesnt attempt to spot dodge sonic just running through them.

the worst that can really happen is if someone like pikachu decides to dsmash to stop the approach. but the best that can happen seems worth a lot, especially against characters who are hard to land KO moves on like Lucario.

 

[Napilopez]

I don't get why people say that you can't go through Maro and luigi's fireballs with SideB -_- I go through them all the time. Heck Imma go try it right now. Yep tested it, I just went through it on my first try.

As for the SideB Shield Cancel, if I remember to do it, then doing it out of a run into a shield grab works wonders. It has more range than a standard running grab, tested it a gagillion times in slow mo.

Now Tenki, I'm wondering if you would also like to use this thread to figure out exactly how the SpinDash and SpinCharge's priority works? Because it really makes me cuckoo! I know the mega priority frames of the SideB, yet it seems the DownB has really high priority at the beginning as wel. Not to mention that sometimes when I'm turning around the SpinDash/SpinCharge roll, sometimes I seem to be smacked out of the movement, othertimes i seem to go clean through very powerful attacks. Sometimes my spin charge will clash with luigi's fsmash, others itll be totally owned.

What the Heck Barbeque?

I want to figure out WHAT affects the Spins' priority, and WHEN it has highest priority and when it has lowest. Roar.

 

[Umby]

As for the SideB Shield Cancel, if I remember to do it, then doing it out of a run into a shield grab works wonders. It has more range( than a standard running grab, tested it a gagillion times in slow mo.

I mentioned this ages ago, but no one heard me.

 

[Tenki]

I don't get why people say that you can't go through Maro and luigi's fireballs with SideB -_- I go through them all the time. Heck Imma go try it right now. Yep tested it, I just went through it on my first try.

As for the SideB Shield Cancel, if I remember to do it, then doing it out of a run into a shield grab works wonders. It has more range than a standard running grab, tested it a gagillion times in slow mo.

Now Tenki, I'm wondering if you would also like to use this thread to figure out exactly how the SpinDash and SpinCharge's priority works? Because it really makes me cuckoo! I know the mega priority frames of the SideB, yet it seems the DownB has really high priority at the beginning as wel. Not to mention that sometimes when I'm turning around the SpinDash/SpinCharge roll, sometimes I seem to be smacked out of the movement, othertimes i seem to go clean through very powerful attacks. Sometimes my spin charge will clash with luigi's fsmash, others itll be totally owned.

What the Heck Barbeque?

I want to figure out WHAT affects the Spins' priority, and WHEN it has highest priority and when it has lowest. Roar.

Mm... I don't know what to test though. What enemy moves have you had 'unstable
priority' issues with? Gimme a few more examples and I'll try to figure it out lol

I'm guessing that their priority changes:
- at the beginning of spindash roll
- depending on charge of the roll

The turnaround on the roll doesn't have an attack aura until you start to pick up speed again.

 

[Napilopez]

Well Imma start keeping more replays so I can record any weird priority moments.

And also, I know that you cant do damage during the turnaround animation, the thing is that it seems that sometimes I seem not not be able to take damage either, like dodge frames. But maybe I'm just imagining things

 

[Tenki]

I don't know about the dodge frames, but I was able to get some fights in online earlier, and here's what I noticed while doing grounded spin charges:

Beginning of the roll seems to have decent priority- clangcancelled Mario's fireballs, clanged with tilts and smashes.

I don't know the distance and I wasn't paying attention to the charge.

atm I don't know if it's only upon release of a grounded spin charge, or if it's common to the beginning of all SDR's.

 

[R4ZE]

Tenki, I think it is probobly related to what you said about the amount of speed having to do with how powerful the charge is, and it decreases with every phase change.

Obviously side be has a ton of priority at the very beginning, and possibly more if fully charged, and every phase change, it probobly decreases by some amount.

I'm sure that from the initial hop to the ground, there is atleast 1 or possibly 2 phase changes, and therefore 2 priority decreases.




- it is also very possible that at the start of any spin dash, and also.. when the blue aura returns, it has the most priority... Like if you hit sum1 exactly when the blue aura returns, maybe it has more priority than if it returns and then you hit someone after the aura has been on you for say.. a second.



thats my theory.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

So, just when I thought I understood how to do the ASC, I see this thread. Amazing, btw, but what is the difference between an - well, let me ask this. Can you hit them with the aerial charge frames? or do you have to release?

And to do the 1-2 punch ASC as part of your pictured awesome combo, do you (analog stick) go V > V > (pressing B at each V)?

 

[TwinkleToes]

Browny, I'm pretty sure you'd have to be ******** to fall for that though. How does that look like a dash attack...

 

[Browny]

you only charge side b for like, 1/10 of a second. it looks more similar to a dash attack than ASC does to a homing attack :/

 

[R4ZE]

its not like a person watching sonic would fall for it, but think about it... when your playing smash you are paying a lot attention to your own characters animation and also the opponents. so it's split attention, not to mention everythign happens reletively quick...


its exactly why.. even though my friends have played against my sonic VERY OFTEN, i am still able to trick them with the dsmash charge, for sum reason they always think im doing a SC.. but the reason is because we are always doing a million other thigns, and i only use dsmash like 5 times per match, and i use SC quite a bit.


its really the same thing with ASC and HA, it CAN confuse people just for the sheer fact that if you use ASC, they expect anythign that looks similar to be ASC... basicly... it requires more than a split second examination for the opponent to know somtimes... plus if you have been keeping pressure on them, and they are just getting a split second break, stuff like that helps.


honestly when this stuff happens, its not liek I'm TRYING to mind game my opponents, I am just pulling out attacks and charged smashes and ASC as i see them as being the best thing for sonic to use, and then after my opponent dies from my dsmash or ASC/HA... they are the ones that tell me i tricked them, and im like... "what?" lol


also... to consider a mindgame less effective because "people will learn to expect it" is ********. because ANY mindgame can be learned and outplayed, almost anything in this game can...

 

[Tenki]

Tenki, I think it is probobly related to what you said about the amount of speed having to do with how powerful the charge is, and it decreases with every phase change.

Obviously side be has a ton of priority at the very beginning, and possibly more if fully charged, and every phase change, it probobly decreases by some amount.

I'm sure that from the initial hop to the ground, there is atleast 1 or possibly 2 phase changes, and therefore 2 priority decreases.




- it is also very possible that at the start of any spin dash, and also.. when the blue aura returns, it has the most priority... Like if you hit sum1 exactly when the blue aura returns, maybe it has more priority than if it returns and then you hit someone after the aura has been on you for say.. a second.




thats my theory.

On side-B's priority:
Going by what Izzy's been saying in the glitch/tech thread, priority is a matter of your hitbox, hurtbox, and length of the attack (and if it does multiple hits). If your hitbox extends past your hurtbox, then you have more priority. Side-B's invincibility frames at the first 5 frames or so of the attack essentially eliminate the hurtbox, so it has 'high priority', since Sonic is basically a ball of hitbox with no hurtbox at that point.

If you're talking about the rest of the hop, I haven't seen too much on its priority, but if you can give examples of what it has cancelled that you normally wouldn't expect to (projectiles, attacks), that'd be nice.

I also don't think charging changes its priority.

On SDR's priority:
Okay, so like I wrote down earlier, I'm thinking that every time you do a turn-around, it begins a totally new SDR with lower charge than the previous one.

I think the beginning of each SDR has 'higher priority', and I'm not entirely too sure when this it runs low.
- can someone test to see what it clangs with at full charge, and see if it still clangs with lower charge?

So, just when I thought I understood how to do the ASC, I see this thread. Amazing, btw, but what is the difference between an - well, let me ask this. Can you hit them with the aerial charge frames? or do you have to release?

And to do the 1-2 punch ASC as part of your pictured awesome combo, do you (analog stick) go V > V > (pressing B at each V)?

- You have to release ._.; Charging never does damage. It'd be awesome though, cause I remember killing bots with it in the Sonic games lol- just charge spindash and have stupid enemies run into you xD

- I'm not sure what you're asking there- if you're asking about what my button input is to do it, it's:

[jump] > [down+B(,B,B...)] + [forward] > (land) > [jump] > [aerial]
and it corresponds with these hits:
[jump] > Forward ASC (hit x2) > SDR (hit) > SDJ (hit) > Aerial

The hard part about it all is getting the placement right (so you land 2 hits AND the ground hit) and the timing to do the spindash jump and aerial.

 

[JiangWei23]

Whoa.

I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING NOW. 0_0

Are there any videos out there demonstrating the ASC in all its glory?

 

[dj asakura]

I was going to say, as much as I hate to say I'm a visual learner and from "that" generation, a video guide would be awesome and help a lot I think. But either way, I definately get the spin charges now. I never used down-b before but now I see that its better, offensively, than side-b and I plan to keep that in mind.

There is one thing I don't really get though. I've been trying to cancel the side-b (ASC) with the shield on the ground so that I can use it for fakes and potentially shield grabs but I can never seem to actually cancel it no matter what I do? Is it a timing thing or am I just doing something wrong?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

You can hold shield WELL before you hit the ground. Don't try to time it. Just hold in earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c

Skip to about 8 minutes.

 

[dj asakura]

Oh wow, that was awesome. Thanks so much for the link to that video!

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Oh wow, that was awesome. Thanks so much for the link to that video!

That looks SO freaking sarcastic.

 

[Tenki]

Spindash Discussion: NEW QUESTION! -Charge!-

On a weird note/survey:
- Do you usually charge your spindashes (both side/downB)?

I almost never charge my side-B unless I'm feinting, and it seems that I tend to charge my down-B out of Genesis reflexes.

I'm starting to feel like single-charge down-B's might be pretty useful, even if they don't deal more damage or travel as fast on release.

Why? I spend 1-2 seconds charging my down-B (maybe 3 taps?), then take maybe half a second to reach my opponent, when I can do a single-charge and reach the guy just a little earlier. It also seems easier to time the jump for a SDR>SDJ combo.

One person I fought said he kept getting confused because I kept doing fast and slow spindashes and he could never tell when I was doing which ones. Maybe if you tap fast enough, you can get a full charge in the same speed you would a single charge. Or you can hold down (ctrl stick) after a single charge to charge it just a little longer and give the illusion of a fast charge.

Mixing up the speeds- mindgame potential? Maybe?

 

[samper]

That sounds reasonable, as long as you don't do it too much of course. Seems like it would only work on people who respond to spin dashes with timing intensive moves (so not Snake's magical jab), but if they respond to those attacks with say...a throw or smash attack that doesn't belong to Wolf, Olimar, or G&W (that guys attacks stay out for so freakin' long) I'm thinking it would work pretty well. I'll make it a note to try that out on the next person I play. You should mention it in the mind games thread and let those guys mess around with it.

As a side note do slower spin dashes make for easier combos? Assuming you hit them of course, would your reduced speed leave you in a position to land air attacks you couldn't ordinarily get a little more reliably (namely Bair)?

 

[Tenki]

As a side note do slower spin dashes make for easier combos? Assuming you hit them of course, would your reduced speed leave you in a position to land air attacks you couldn't ordinarily get a little more reliably (namely Bair)?

Well, charge doesn't affect your air speed, since you travel faster on the ground than you can in midair, so you automatically travel either at max or near-max airspeed, anyway (unless you hold backwards or something).

But it helps people who have problems timing the actual jump so they place the jump in front of the enemy instead of behind them (side effect of jumping too late because of moving too fast)

EDIT:
There's a percentage range where you can SDR> B-air true combo. It's an awesome finisher move @.@

Haven't added it to the finishing moves thread yet though