What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

[FrostByte]

>_>

I'm sure I posted that somewhere weeks ago.

 

[dj asakura]

That looks SO freaking sarcastic.

Really? Sorry about that, I actually added the video to my favorites so when I need to look at something I don't quite get I can look it up and find what I need.

Wasn't supposed to be sarcastic at all, it actually really helped and I was really happy, haha

And the switching up the spin charge times mindgame would actually seem to work really well. I feel like a lot of peole do notice which charge you're using and expect you to come at them at full speed each time so they'll hit early giving us a free couple of hits.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Wasn't supposed to be sarcastic at all, it actually really helped and I was really happy, haha

Oh. I'm sure it wasn't.

^Heh. That looks sarcastic too. XD

It's just hard to differentiate sarcasm from sincerity in text.

I thought all Sonic's have seen that vid though.

 

[Napilopez]

I just posted this on the Techniques thread, and I don't know if it's been mentioned before that, but I haven't seen it.

Using an Full spincharge on someone next to the ledge does an automatic 21% damage. At least in FD where I tested it. I was doing something in practice mode and I noticed 21% damage with my Spin charge in what seemed to be only one hit and I was like ZOMG NEW SONIC ADV TECH! But then I noticed it only worked next to the ledge =( That would be cuz your SDR automatically goes into an ASC roll, thus inflicting damage twice in ery quick succession. I only tried it against a CPU, but I doubt you can DI out f it because f how little knockback he first hit has and how quickly it all happens.

Very situatinal, but useful to know nevertheless.

I've been working on figuring out the priorities of the different spins and what influences them, cuz it really drives me nuts sometimes (and thankfully, my oppnents too =) how I'll go through smashes and stuff with a spindash sometimes, and others I'll be beaten out by a jab.

Anybody have any idea how much realative priority that spiky thingy DeDeDe throws at times has? I went clean thrugh one of those the ther day with just a Spin Charge. Lemme go test now

 

[Browny]

lol, SH uncharged side b goes through the turtle. i think im going to abuse this approach to the same degree G&W users abuse the turtle. just played a wifi match against a typical turtle spammer, so i just repeatedly did that, worked pretty well, shut down that approach nice and fast.

 

[Tenki]

I've been working on figuring out the priorities of the different spins and what influences them, cuz it really drives me nuts sometimes (and thankfully, my oppnents too =) how I'll go through smashes and stuff with a spindash sometimes, and others I'll be beaten out by a jab.

Anybody have any idea how much realative priority that spiky thingy DeDeDe throws at times has? I went clean thrugh one of those the ther day with just a Spin Charge. Lemme go test now

I was going to work on more move info since that's basically what I did when I didn't have anyone to play with, but now that my wifi is working again, I've been working on getting my actual gameplay to start improving, since it's basically a month behind (?)

@ Spin priorities
Things that I DID find:
- SDR seems to have best priority at the beginning of the attack.
- Side-B's amount of charge has no effect on invincibility frames/priority nor the hop's airspeed.
- Down-B's priority seems to fluctuate a bit, but it seems to have best priority at the beginning of the move- for both ASC and SDR I'm not sure if it's distance or time based, but if it's time based, then higher charge=longer distance for better priority, cause of speed.

on the Unira note, that sounds cool. Watch silven's Ike combo video and there's a part where quickdraw destroys one of Dedede's Uniras (spiky things). I'm thinking that the Unira probably has a 'time' based priority/hp thing going on that at a certain point in the throw, it has lower priority. Maybe.

@dj vs G&W:
remember retreating fsmash xD it's too good vs G&W landings
[smash back on control stick]+[manual forward smash (not C-stick or shortcut)]
it's basically a quick dashdance but instead of dashing forwards, you fsmash. Like a reverse stutter step x]

PS
Sounds like you've got the invincibility frame use pretty well :O
i wanna see vids =D

 

[Browny]

it sure is hard to time it right, its not even for the full hop. i must have been extremely lucky that i got it to work so often, pacticing against my brother i only managed to time it right maybe half the time, the turtle comes out so fast and has such big range, and sonic moves so fast youve gotta space REALLY well to get it.

 

[JayBee]

Please direct me to any video showing the the Spin Charge, the Cancel into a shiled, and that perfect combo you were talking about. I do better when I see someone else do it first.



I thought you could only Sheild cancel the Side B. Down B too huh? is it only from the air?

I gotta see this my self, that tapping forward to get the hit box or whatever back, im gonna try it now.

 

[Boxob]

Good stuff, tenki.

 

[Napilopez]

I was going to work on more move info since that's basically what I did when I didn't have anyone to play with, but now that my wifi is working again, I've been working on getting my actual gameplay to start improving, since it's basically a month behind (?)

@ Spin priorities
Things that I DID find:
- SDR seems to have best priority at the beginning of the attack.
- Side-B's amount of charge has no effect on invincibility frames/priority nor the hop's airspeed.
- Down-B's priority seems to fluctuate a bit, but it seems to have best priority at the beginning of the move- for both ASC and SDR I'm not sure if it's distance or time based, but if it's time based, then higher charge=longer distance for better priority, cause of speed.

on the Unira note, that sounds cool. Watch silven's Ike combo video and there's a part where quickdraw destroys one of Dedede's Uniras (spiky things). I'm thinking that the Unira probably has a 'time' based priority/hp thing going on that at a certain point in the throw, it has lower priority. Maybe.

I have the replay of the Unira thingy if you're interested. I was like ZOMG WTHECK and killed myself after seeing that happen =P.

I agree with all your observations mentioned abve about the priority properties. I think that Down B Priority may be determined by speed, because as you said, it des have higher priority at the beginning, at least as much priority as many character's Fsmashes. An example of how speed may affect priority happened to me today against a Samus. I DownB'd from far away and I went clean through a homing missile she shot at me that hit me near the beginning of the SDR. But then she shot another one wen I had traveled a long distance and I got blown up by it =P.

A note about SideB's priority. Nothing that important, but it seems that it's amount of priority is determined by the Position of Sonic in the hop. Meaning, Sonic's priority starts off as invincible, then gradually goes down as he progresses through the hop, until at the end of the hop he has like zero priority at all. After Sonic touches ground again, however, and goes into an SDR, SideB seems to take the same properties as the DownB's priority, meaning probably determined by speed.

Another interesting thing. I get the feeling Sonic has invincibility frames or dodge frames at the moment when he jumps frm an SDR. Because I've seen it happen so many times where I cut right through an enemies attacks or grabs without either of us taking damage. Check out this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtuhWMTtF9U&fmt=18

Look very closesly at about 1:00. You will see Samus tries to grab Sonic, and Sonic is within grab range, yet right as Samus does this, Sonic enters a jump, and goes right through the tether grab. You can pause the video at 1:01 and see Samus' grapple thingy right on Sonic.

I'm not sure but I think the same properties might be true for a very small number of frames during the SDR's turn around animation. Wish I had someone to help me test these things =/

 

[TwinkleToes]

^I think the grapple just hit extension a bit early. The fast speed and lousy frame rate makes it difficult to tell though.

 

[JayBee]

I kinda saw this by accident when I was training with Sonic, but i thought this may have some potential in sonics movement game.


I ASC into my opponent for the combo, but he manages to block it. I SDJ'd, then held back and tapped jump. the result was that as soon as the opponent blocked it, I slung my self backwards, while still facing forwards, and then began charging ASC as I descended. It looked very viable for an escape tactic because even though it wasn't a spin shot ( i think) it kinda looked like it, and the spin dash i did after wards i went into another ASC, or I'd just land instead. The thing that made me post this was that if I aim it I can land nearby with a full charged SC on wakeup. the only issue is that your second jump is gone, so it may be slightly risky, but the people I've tested it on seem to have issues with it, on hit or block.

Ima try to work on it some more but hopefully some of you guys can and see what I mean, and comment on what I think is a decent mix up to the "sonic perfect combo".

 

[Tenki]

Ay, the "shuttle loop" movement. I used to use it alot, but it tended to lead into me rolling off the edge and dying. With ASC shield cancel, that problem is gone now, and you can aim it to either go in front of them for a shieldgrab or away and then short hop to get your jump back. It's a useful move on wifi or to throw in once in a while, but since you're only hitting them with your spindashes, it'll own the stale moves like crazy :[

If you hit your opponent with the SDR or SDJ, you can follow up with a footstool jump, moving backwards, then charge another SC and repeat. That's the 'chain loop' that some people have been talking about lately.

 

[JayBee]

yeah, i noticed the edge part too. I up B out, but a smart player would probably be on there trying to gimp me.


spin loop? huh, ima try that now. give me a minute.





edit: I still have a jump after the loop so if i connect on the second ASC, then I should go into a Homing Attack and either get another hit in, or use the trajectory to put me in a more favorable landing i think.


where did you first hear about the spin loop, are there any vids to it and do you think its more reliable, or I should use both anyway?

 

[FrostByte]

Bump.

Also, does anyone know why ASC sometimes hits twice for 21% or *3 times* for 25-27 I have a rough Idea why it sometimes hits 3 times at low% (probably the height), I just need verification.

 

[Tenki]

ASC: (takes in: charge data, 'remaining jumps')
- Has a multiple hit combo:
- - First hit: 7-11 damage (damage based on velocity - hold forward for maximum damage)
- - - High knockback that can KO at higher %'s (170-180%+ on grounded opponents)
- - Follow-up hit: 7-10 damage (don't know what changes it)
- - - Lower knockback similar to side-B's knockback.
- Has higher air speed than normal jumps.
- If you have remaining jumps, can be jump cancelled, allowing you to follow-up with aerials
- Turns into SDR on contact with ground
- Can be cancelled by shield on landing.
- Passes charge and 'remaining jumps' data to the SDR that follows.

There you go.
First hit did 11 damage
Second hit did 10
= 21 damage.

I STILL don't know what change the 2nd hit's damage, but then again, since I got wifi back and can play with other people, I haven't really been testing much of anything outside of actual application of stuff.

Getting the 3rd hit depends on your height, your opponent's DI (like.. if they DI in the same direction you're moving), and your opponent's size. It's much easier to pull it off on Bowser and Dedede, among others.

Also, vs things like Sandbags and bosses, you can get the 3rd hits much easier. Actually, on Bosses, I think you can pull a 5-hit ASC lol.

 

[JayBee]

Okay, because it was bothering me that i could almost never get that third hit. if its that situational, then Im not gonna worry about it.

 

[R4ZE]

Bump.

Also, does anyone know why ASC sometimes hits twice for 21% or *3 times* for 25-27 I have a rough Idea why it sometimes hits 3 times at low% (probably the height), I just need verification.

i think ASC's hits just come back after a certain amount of time, or distamce... kinda like sonic's blue aura in grounded spins. except its a lot shorter of a time for ASC.... so basicly the bigger the character the easier it is to hit them multiple times.. i think i have hit DDD and bowser as much as 4 times in 1 ASC. (not including the finishing aerial move)

 

[Tenshi-kun]

Thank you SO much for explaining this effing acronyms. Haha. Really helps.

 

[TwinkleToes]

LOL, Tenki's the one that came up with the acronyms. He had a responsibility to explain them somewhere ;P

 

[Tenshi-kun]

Well then I thank Tenki.

Thank you Tenki! <3

 

[B.A.M.]

itd be great if some1 had a video with all these techniques shown. us sonics gotta learn these moves 2 survive.

 

[Tenki]

us sonics gotta learn these moves 2 survive.

did anyone else notice the irony?

Other than shield cancelling ASC, which is covered by Sonic Orochi's tutorial video, the only thing remotely close to needing a video is the Perfect Combo, which is too situational and (IMO) luck-based to merit one.

Unless someone makes a combo vid. Which would be too funny, because it's be like the only brawl combo vid with true combos.

 

[Umby]

More like Gimping video without CPU test dummies.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Oh yeah! I have no idea if this is old news but you can spin shot with spin charge. I did it by accident the other day. I haven't messed with it much,nor do I know the timing for it yet. But It' happened twice.....

 

[Napilopez]

You sure the spin charge wasn't in the air? Because I know you can do it from the air, frm the ground, however, it's never happened to me.

On the perfect combo, I pulled it off the other day against a Marth. And I didn't record it =[[[. I was like ZOMGGG. I think it's worth learning just for the heck of it. It's like I remember many people complaining about not being able to pull off the perfect standard SDR combo(SDR Hit, SDRJ hit, aerial), while nowadays I seem to pull it off at least like half the times I try. I'm not even sure how I do it, it's just kind of muscle memory at this point, and it just happens. Now if I could get that same effect with the ASC perfect combo.... the pwnage would reign. MUAHAHA. =

Yayyy, I finally made myself an avatar! Sig, you're next!

 

[__Lewis__]

This thread is epic win. On all levels.

 

[da K.I.D.]

possibly another move that came into my mind, if you are trying to approach from far away:

SC from one side and than jump at about 1/3 through FD, than since you are in an ASC at the time you could jump across the rest of FD and attempt to hit them with the perfect combo,

just a thought for more options

 

[da K.I.D.]

possibly another move that came into my mind, if you are trying to approach from far away:

SC from one side and than jump at about 1/3 through FD, than since you are in an ASC at the time you could jump across the rest of FD and attempt to hit them with the perfect combo,

just a thought for more options

tested this myself, and it doesnt work, lol. theres not enuff space on most boards, and it would require the opponent to be standing still

 

[da K.I.D.]

also made something of a discovery,

it seems that the knockback for rolling jump hits, follow an angle that extends from the center of sonics body, in that if you draw a line from the center of sonics body to where the opponent is hit, it will, for the most part, send opponent continuing through that line. and that determines whether you will have the chance for a follow up attack or not

 

[R4ZE]

I've done some testing, it is possible to ASC someone, and then cancel into ANOTHER ASC... the only problem is that after the second ASC, you cant jump cancel into an ariel, so the max damage comes out less than a normal ASC into aerial combo... but maybe if you hit the ground and went into a "perfect combo" on the second ASC, then u would have touched the ground, so you could exectue the perfect combo. right?


so it would be an extra 2 or 3 hits... but man... this would be hard as hell to execute.

 

[JayBee]

Maybe is possible if you Shield cancel teh second ASC, then folow it up with an aerial. R4ZE, this may be quite viable, since often times I have cancelled the ASC after hitting someone, and they'd be above me in hit stun. i will test more, but i think i can ASC>jc ASC Cancel>Jump Aerial. i'll try to put some numbers up if this true, and feel free to try it yourself.

 

[Tenki]

also made something of a discovery,

it seems that the knockback for rolling jump hits, follow an angle that extends from the center of sonics body, in that if you draw a line from the center of sonics body to where the opponent is hit, it will, for the most part, send opponent continuing through that line. and that determines whether you will have the chance for a follow up attack or not

Tried it out in training mode against a computer and I couldn't get the downward motion to work.

It could just be DI, and that, like almost all of Sonic's aerials, the knockback/direction is dependent on which side your opponent is.

 

[JayBee]

Maybe is possible if you Shield cancel teh second ASC, then folow it up with an aerial. R4ZE, this may be quite viable, since often times I have cancelled the ASC after hitting someone, and they'd be above me in hit stun. i will test more, but i think i can ASC>jc ASC Cancel>Jump Aerial. i'll try to put some numbers up if this true, and feel free to try it yourself.

Meh, i dont think so now... just tried doing this. you can cancel the first ASC, then jump out and do an aerial or something, but whether or not its worth it on its own; prolly not. I think that you could use this if you ASC cancel on an opponent and they do get hit by the ASC, so instead of a shield grab you can get a quick aerial, it does decent damage, but that's it.

 

[Nanaki]

Longtime Sonic board lurker here, decided to chip in finally.

I've tried quite a few times, but never gotten the ASC cancel to ASC perfect combo to work. You can spring cancel the second ASC, which seems like it could lead to something, but they have to launch just right on both the cancelled ASC and the second ASC for there to be any chance of it working.

Note: This thread alone has upped my Sonic game immensely. You rock Tenki.

 

[Umby]

So I encountered something weird today.

I used my second jump on Battlefield and Spin Dashed onto a platform, letting it run out. When it went into that screeching animation afterwards, I zoomed off the platform and off the other side of the stage (not all the way to the blastline, just a little bit away from the stage). I have that match it was in recorded, so I guess I'll upload it.

Shit was weird though.

 

[Tenki]

So I encountered something weird today.

I used my second jump on Battlefield and Spin Dashed onto a platform, letting it run out. When it went into that screeching animation afterwards, I zoomed off the platform and off the other side of the stage (not all the way to the blastline, just a little bit away from the stage). I have that match it was in recorded, so I guess I'll upload it.

Shit was weird though.

it's useless and puts you in a bad situation lol

I was trying to show someone some spring tricks and tried to show ASC killing off spring height by launching a rising ASC from a spring, but when I floated back to the edge and didn't cancel it, that happened to me as well `.`

 

[Browny]

yeah ive had that happen too umby, only ever once on Lylat cruise, same situation

 

[TwinkleToes]

You nubs. I've never made that mistake :x

Oh, and Tenki, were you doing ASC->uair? Why would you try to use ASC alone to KO over the top, I thought it was weaker than uair for knockback.

Am I wrong?

 

[Tenki]

nah, just a pure ASC, and ASC DOES have higher knockback than U-air.

It was a variation of BlueTerrorist's usage of side-B to start spindash combos in high altitudes from spring, except with ASC, since it can either kill, or knock certain people off of, say... cypher and then set up for an aerial combo.