What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

[R4ZE]

i see what u mean. does it sheild cancel after the turn around?

i mean it still should be slow enuff right?

 

[Tenki]

i see what u mean. does it sheild cancel after the turn around?

i mean it still should be slow enuff right?

Nope.

Even a single-charge side-B isn't slow enough until it hits something, so you can't shieldcancel that, unless you land on a hill with a single-charge ASC.

 

[R4ZE]

well atleast ti allows for SOME more versatility... you can sheild cancel ASC right when you land, or you can wait and sheild cancel it a bit after

 

[darkNES386]

I'm not understanding the 2 second time limit. The time I'm thinking of is longer than two seconds. I guess I'll have to play around with this some more. Anymore clarification possible?

 

[Tenki]

YAY! Video example of time limit and its use!

So yeah, thanks to DiasFlac recording without my permission/knowledge, there are finally videos of Tenki on youtube!

I'm not understanding the 2 second time limit. The time I'm thinking of is longer than two seconds. I guess I'll have to play around with this some more. Anymore clarification possible?

Hooray! I found it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XauW_ShOXiM

Alright, look at the last kill (starts around 3:45)

3:47, I release the charge
3:49, I do a "turnaround-stop" (the "pivot stop"/SDR "quick stop"/ whatever that I mentioned in the time limit update) spaced out of his F-smash range and counter-F-smash for the win.

edit/reply to next post:
Heh, he actually missed alot of would-be kills if only he could read me and do the timing better.

 

[Greenstreet]

i like it.
except everytime u got a kill he got one straight back good match tho

 

[Chis]

Everyone needs to see this thread again...

 

[Greenstreet]

u can charge use the down b by only pressing the b button once.

10irrelephants

 

[Tenki]

Yes. All you have to do is hold [down] (on the control stick) for somewhere around 1 second, then release.

 

[darkNES386]

Vertical Spin Jumps can be jump canceled out of.

The are better than regular jumps because:
-Sonic gets more elevation than a regular jump
-Can DI much easier than a regular jump
-It's an actual attack with decent priority
-It can be "bounced" (using side-b) which actually is faster than stringing jumps on the ground together.
-Can throw a spin shot in there (as long as you didn't jump cancel yet)
-Sonic is in a ball... which he likes to do.

I'm really going to look into this.

Oh and "SPROING"! (bump)

 

[Camalange]

Vertical Spin Jumps can be jump canceled out of.

The are better than regular jumps because:
-Sonic gets more elevation than a regular jump
-Can DI much easier than a regular jump
-It's an actual attack with decent priority
-Sonic is in a ball
-It can be "bounced" (using side-b) which actually is faster than stringing jumps on the ground together.

I'm really going to look into this.

Oh and "SPROING"! (bump)

So basically it makes it easier to string attacks more easily and effectively?

This is essentially what we thought Boxob discovered, right?

 

[darkNES386]

Boxob hasn't entirely convinced me that this is what he's talking about. But it's the only thing I could do early today after listening to his instructions. It pretty much turns Sonic into a constant bouncing ball who at any time can jump cancel/attack or do whatever. Of course it totally removes his ground game and obviously projectiles can still hit him so it's not like ZOMG sonic is now top tier.

EDIT: Boxob wants us to cancel our attacks. You can't do this with a short hop anything. There's not enough time. Instead of finishing up attacks with this/stringing them together... I'm saying: setup your attacks with first a bunch of VSJ followed by whatever suits the situation.

 

[Camalange]

Boxob hasn't entirely convinced me that this is what he's talking about. But it's the only thing I could do early today after listening to his instructions. It pretty much turns Sonic into a constant bouncing ball who at any time can jump cancel/attack or do whatever. Of course it totally removes his ground game and obviously projectiles can still hit him so it's not like ZOMG sonic is now top tier.

EDIT: Boxob wants us to cancel our attacks. You can't do this with a short hop anything. There's not enough time. Instead of finishing up attacks with this/stringing them together... I'm saying: setup your attacks with first a bunch of VSJ followed by whatever suits the situation.

Well, this seems very useful, even if Boxob didn't find a way to cancel attacks, at least we got this. I haven't been able to test this out yet, sadly, but by the description "constant bouncing ball" that means he basically can constantly do his Side-B hop across the stage. If so, couldn't this possibly sometimes serve as a safe approach because of the start up invincibility frames?

 

[darkNES386]

Yeah, definitely and more importantly... I am pretty sure his DI becomes better than when doing a regular jump. I'm not saying he goes jigg styles.... but it definitely is an improvement. After fooling around with this for a couple minutes I found myself wanting to get better at all the various ways to cancel Sonic's spin moves. The best part is you don't even have to "jump" right away if you don't want to and you can even shield cancel or just release the spin dash normally.

Aside from standing still.... it becomes Sonic's triple threat: Vertical Jump Attack (or into any aerial), Shield>grab/roll, release as regular attack.

 

[ShadowLink84]

his airspeed remains the same.

 

[darkNES386]

his airspeed remains the same.

Can you clarify what you mean?

 

[Camalange]

Yeah, definitely and more importantly... I am pretty sure his DI becomes better than when doing a regular jump. I'm not saying he goes jigg styles.... but it definitely is an improvement. After fooling around with this for a couple minutes I found myself wanting to get better at all the various ways to cancel Sonic's spin moves. The best part is you don't even have to "jump" right away if you don't want to and you can even shield cancel or just release the spin dash normally.

Aside from standing still.... it becomes Sonic's triple threat: Vertical Jump Attack (or into any aerial), Shield>grab/roll, release as regular attack.

I'm liking the sound of this...Sorry for all the questions I'm just curious.
Now this can be down after a shorthopped fair or bair too right?

 

[darkNES386]

let me get back to you on it. It's killing me that I didn't bring my usb recording device home with me. Give me like 10 minutes and I'll have a solid post.

Okay so yeah, let's continue this discussion in the other thread.

 

[Tenki]

EDIT: Boxob wants us to cancel our attacks. You can't do this with a short hop anything. There's not enough time. Instead of finishing up attacks with this/stringing them together... I'm saying: setup your attacks with first a bunch of VSJ followed by whatever suits the situation.

SH insta F-air actually has enough airtime time to buffer a move as you're landing. N-air is too slow (the attackbox won't come up before you land), and U-air/F-air might be the only aerials that you can pull as you're landing if you wanna hit anything. Or D-air, in a weird way.

his airspeed remains the same.

his aerial acceleration remains the same, but his top speed is greater, I believe.

 

[infomon]

The startup lag to get a charge in down-B makes me very sad. If it was just a tiny bit faster, you could shorthop fastfall ASC shield-cancel the landing. Which would have been super super awesome. Especially since we could talk about SHFFASCSC and the other boards would be like WTF Sonic even more than they already are :D

What I was really hoping, is if you could start charging ASC, and then fastfall. But it seems like if you want to fastfall the charging state you've got to fastfall before you start charging

Regardless, I still love hopping around like: shorthop either forwards or backwards, immediately start charging SC while leaning it in the direction of your jump, it's not hard to get it fully charged before you just shieldcancel the landing, then shorthop ASC-charging again... do this a bunch of times both forwards and backwards for the lolz... see how your opponent reacts, then either SDR out at full speed, or spinshot just before you land the shorthop

 

[Boxob]

Someone please sticky this.

 

[Camalange]

Someone please sticky this.

AGREED.

I'm sick of seeing threads like this, this, and this

 

[Tenki]

A MOMENTOUS UPDATE!!!l!

So I added a TL;DR to the top of the post because freaking newbies and lurkers don't read and don't have the attention span to get past 3 lines.

 

[infomon]

The most important part of the OP.... lawl. gg

 

[Tenki]

lol REAL UPDATE! (10/14): Side-B moves.

So, some bonus stuff that I've been experimenting with / have deemed useful.

Side-B (and sort of... ASC, if you can space ASC well enough) moves!

NEW ADDITIONS! 10/14
There are some pretty cool things you can do out of side-B as an approach, actually.
Side-B has lower damage and knockback, and so it doesn't launch the opponent as far upwards, so there are some... interesting things you can do out of it to say the least.

- Footstool Tech Chase Setup!
Taken from Ophelia's "improved footstool combo" (side-B> footstool > spring jump > lagless D-air > jablock):
[Side-B (hop)] > [SH footstool+ fastfall] > [Tech chase+ move of choice]

At low %'s, you can do this by double jumping and spamming jump immediately after hitting your opponent. At higher %'s, it might seem harder to perform this because your opponent will be launched higher, but if you perform a side-B so you launch towards their head, you'll start out closer to the spot you need to footstool, and it's possible to do an insta-footstool to ground them. That's not exactly the best idea though, because you want to have them slightly above ground so you have time to fall/charge a spindash, if that's what makes you feel good.

- Spotdodge punisher/Air launcher
[Side-B (hop)] > [Doublejump] (optional footstool)+[D-air]

Preferrably land the D-air behind them, so if they shield, you'll still be relatively safe.
It's kind of unsafe, but if it makes contact, D-air will launch your opponent upwards, since they'll be on the ground (footstool should ground them after the side-B hits them up), and it will let you get to the ground+move earlier than if you just tried to double jump+fastfall. This seems to do pretty well if you have a pretty grounded playstyle.

 

[Greenstreet]

I really like the look of those..

 

[SonicX580]

So, some bonus stuff that I've been experimenting with / have deemed useful.

Side-B (and sort of... ASC, if you can space ASC well enough) moves!

That's good to know.

 

[Greenstreet]

Should we be considerin this as one of our new stickies? (see chat room for discussion)

 

[Camalange]

Should we be considerin this as one of our new stickies? (see chat room for discussion)

YES. (going to check chat room for discussion)

 

[Kinzer]

C'mon, show me your stickies Pins!

 

[Napilopez]

That's good to know.

Thank you for your comment.

Even if it wasnt about me and you posted that forever ago. But its not like you pay attention to such trivial things? XD =P JK. Kinda.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways, I didn't know where else to post this, So I'm posting it here.

I went through 2 Lucario Fully charged *** this weekend with ASC. IN THE AIR, both of them. In the same match.

Only that this time one was when the lucario was at 51%, the other was at 70-80%, so I'm not sure how much damage they do or how much priority they have. But still. Iz confused.

 

[Browny]

priority on AS increases with the damage it deals. a 170% baby AS doing 10% will have the same priority as a half charged one doing 10% by a 50% lucario

i think...

 

[Napilopez]

priority on AS increases with the damage it deals. a 170% baby AS doing 10% will have the same priority as a half charged one doing 10% by a 50% lucario

i think...

Hmm, any clue how much damage an AS does at those percentages?

Perhaps the first hit of ASC clangs with the AS, allowing it to go through or something? Idk... I gotta do more extensive testing with someone.

 

[R4ZE]

ASC is only truly countered by penguin feet. nothing else beats it.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'd like to add that SDR clanks with Lucas PKT2

 

[Tenki]

ASC is only truly countered by penguin feet. nothing else beats it.

SH disjointed aerials.
grounded disjointed moves.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Sonic's f-smash breaks ASC..

 

[Greenstreet]

Ok I am assuming that it's not known because I had a search through here and couldn't find it. And it should be here if it was known. But as far as I know I made a little discovery while messing around in training mode tonight. Nape informs me it's known, but I'll leave this here nonetheless.

IRSD or GRNST
Instant Reverse Spin Dash or Grounded Reverse Nuclear Spin Tech.
​

Before: Sonic runs accross FD but wants to change direction into a roll quickly as he is being chased. Either has to roll in current direction and turn, stop and SD in the right direction, or turn around in the run and SD in the right direction. All three of the options are pretty slow and don't do much in the way of options.

What IRSD does: Essentially the IRSD is a grounded B-Reversal for the Spindash. We could do it in the air before like any other B-reversal, but now it's grounded. It's input is much similar to that of a Falcon or Warlock Punch reversal except a little quicker timing is required. (And it's on a side-B, so it becomes slightly trickier as it is.)

Here's the input:

Running --> Side B --> As soon as the animation begins, jam the control stick in the opposite direction.

You have to flick that control stick alot faster than you generally have to for the Falcon or Warlock Punch, but the concept is pretty much the same. You can't let the charge slide Sonic back at all pretty much, otherwise you won't be able to pull it off.

This'll instantly change the direction of your Side B without any additional lag.

Applications:

1. It's a really quick way to change directions... or perhaps a safer way considering the invincibility frames.

2. A highly unexpected approach. Consider this, Sonic running away from an approaching character then suddenly switches directions into

a) SD(H): Invinciibility for the win. Great quick counter when you see an attack coming.

b) SDR: The roll itself could be unexpected and obviously set up for combos like it usually does. Sonic's about reading your opponent and reacting to it, so consider it another tool for reacting quickly.

c) Spin Shot: Although it'll take a little longer to pull off the spin shot than just the reversal on its own, I've given it a few goes and you can still bring it down to a speed that is fairly unexpected and useful.

d) VSDJ: Not sure what the Sonic boards are calling it but hopefully you know what I am referring to, when you just push up out of the charge..

e) Grab: Way to turnaround grab quicker?

Anyway... the applications are just the same as the reguar SDCharge but with the option of spindashing or spinshotting in the other direction alot faster than you normally would.
Seeing as though Sonic is a character all about punishing mistakes as soon as possible (by reading your opponent), it seems logical that this would have some applications, as its a quicker way to get rolling into an attack or just using the Hop itself as the attack.

It's all just speculation at this point as I haven't used it in a match yet..not a big thing any so yeh...

Meh, it's probably known and I just nubbed myself...by atleast I learnt something new right? Also even if it is known, GRNST should be its name. Muhahahah!

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Only time I ever find myself doing that is when I want to turn around, and grab quickly. Sonic's pivot grab is ****, so this kinda sorta helps.

 

[Napilopez]

Good thing you brought this up greeny mcgreen. I actually brought this up earlier today, and Tenki I'm quite sure has mentioned this quite a few times, but you're right, it should be in this thread.

Anyways, as Pheonix Dark pointed out, I use this mostly for pivot grabs, as Its much better than Sonic's pivot grab since it stops you in place, and it gives you that instant boost. Usually when you try to pivot grab with Sonic you just run past your opponents and end up totally whiffing it, with this, not so much. And its a great surprise tactic too.

However, I never thought of the applications of this in the ways you brought up, all of which seem viable. I especially like the Idea of the reveerse spinshot. Like if your opponent is trying to chase after you, then an all of a sudden you reverse spinshot and Bair them... too good.

As for the go vertical thing, we call it VSDJ(Vertical SDJ =P)

I had also mentioned in another thread how awesome it is to Reverse Aerial Rush ASCs. Seriously, its sooo much less predictable and harder to counter than just running up to your opponent jumping, and using ASC. This would let you run past them, and then very quickly SH ASC backwards. If you can get a reverse grab off of landing the ASC(Not exactly sure how this works...), then its awesome

-----------------------------------------------------------------

On another random note.... I was thinking about triple hit ASCs... I know it usually happens on larger heavier characters at low percentages... but I was wondering, what if there were a way to perhaps make it easier to land all 3 hits(maybe even more?) of ASC?

I came across this tiny clip, and started to wonder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJS4D-7d9tc

I mean 38% in less than 2 seconds... thats pretty darn sweet.

So this is my reasoning:
ASC isn't automzaticaly multi-hit. It only becomes so by you continuing to hold forward as you progress through the air.
The reason why ASC isn't usually more than 2 hits is because Sonic usually has already gone past his opponent by the time he gets the chance to connect a third time. That clip above is an exception.

So what if you could somehow make it so that you slow the movement of the ASC through the air?
But you may say, you can slo it down depending on how much you hold forward, but if you don't hold forward, it wont be as powerful...
Yet for ASC to hit full power, all you have to do is hold forward the INSTANT as you are about to go through your opponent.
So if you could theoretically, quickly move the control stick back and forth, to speed up and slow down the ASCs momentum for each and every hit... you might get more reliable triplehit ASCs...

Things would basically go like this:
Hold forward>first hit>quickly push back to slow ASC down, then push forward againfor the second hit>rinse and repeat.

You are basically slowing down the ASC between hits, so you don't travel past your opponent so quickly...

So yea, this is all theory craft, but I think its worth a try. It seems like youd need extremely quick fingers to get it to work at full speed, but how about someone try it out at 1/4th speed to see if its even possible at all? If it can be done at 1/4x, then someone wth quick enough fingers could do it at full speed...

A possible flaw I was thinking of however, is that ASC scends your opponents upwards, so if you are slowing it down, your opponents might get sent up too much and escape the combo anyways. Another possible flaw is that Sonic's aerial acceleration is too poor to really make a difference at such short time intervals of hitting back and forth.

Anyone wanna try? I dunno if I'm going home this weekend =/

Edit:
Big flaw, ASC's power is determined by velocity not just wether you are holding forward I believe. So yea, no clue if this will work at all. But if it makes triple hit ASCs any more common, it's worth knowing.