Why should Zelda one-shots and Mario spin-off characters be playable in Smash?

[volbound1700]

Zelda is underrepresented IMO, especially when compared to Fire Emblem.

Mario is a phenomenal Franchise in gaming. Its spin-offs (like Mario Kart) have sold more units than 75% of the Franchises in Smash. Mario series is hands-down the MOST ICONIC gaming Franchise. There is really no debate.

If you want a great analysis of series being over/under represented, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZl5FL4XeYM

 

[Quillion]

Zelda is underrepresented IMO, especially when compared to Fire Emblem.

Mario is a phenomenal Franchise in gaming. Its spin-offs (like Mario Kart) have sold more units than 75% of the Franchises in Smash. Mario series is hands-down the MOST ICONIC gaming Franchise. There is really no debate.

If you want a great analysis of series being over/under represented, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZl5FL4XeYM

You can make an argument that the Zelda characters have underwhelming portrayals, but in terms of pure quantity, six characters ain't bad.

And yes, Mario spin-offs sell a lot, but they wouldn't exist without the main series at the core. The spin-off exclusive characters are relative nobodies compared to the main series characters.

 

[volbound1700]

You can make an argument that the Zelda characters have underwhelming portrayals, but in terms of pure quantity, six characters ain't bad.

And yes, Mario spin-offs sell a lot, but they wouldn't exist without the main series at the core. The spin-off exclusive characters are relative nobodies compared to the main series characters.

You missed my point. I was pointing out that even the Mario spin-offs are bigger than most Franchises. That is how HUGE Mario series as a whole is. Of course the mainstream series is HUGE. You can never have enough Mario characters. Mario and Pokemon are probably the two for sure franchises in Smash. I would definitely prefer characters from other series though. Mario is running out of good picks overall.

I think with BOTW2 coming and the 35th Anniversary this year, Legend of Zelda has a decent chance to get a character. It is crazy that we got Byleth but not a Zelda character like cough Impa. Impa makes the most sense for the Franchise right now.

 

[Lenidem]

You can make an argument that the Zelda characters have underwhelming portrayals, but in terms of pure quantity, six characters ain't bad.

And yes, Mario spin-offs sell a lot, but they wouldn't exist without the main series at the core. The spin-off exclusive characters are relative nobodies compared to the main series characters.

Six characters, but three are clones of each other, and one of them is still obviously based on a character from another franchise. So that makes only three real characters, and that's not much at all.

 

[Quillion]

You missed my point. I was pointing out that even the Mario spin-offs are bigger than most Franchises. That is how HUGE Mario series as a whole is. Of course the mainstream series is HUGE. You can never have enough Mario characters. Mario and Pokemon are probably the two for sure franchises in Smash. I would definitely prefer characters from other series though. Mario is running out of good picks overall.

I think with BOTW2 coming and the 35th Anniversary this year, Legend of Zelda has a decent chance to get a character. It is crazy that we got Byleth but not a Zelda character like cough Impa. Impa makes the most sense for the Franchise right now.

Popularity can only go so far until the series in question has little to offer character-wise. Look at Metroid: it's a popular series, but due to the series's theme of isolation, there isn't much it has to offer character-wise. Ridley had to undergo heavy changes to his body shape just to be considered.

Six characters, but three are clones of each other, and one of them is still obviously based on a character from another franchise. So that makes only three real characters, and that's not much at all.

That's why I said "pure quantity". Representation is nothing but a question of quantity.

 

[Lenidem]

That's why I said "pure quantity". Representation is nothing but a question of quantity.

That's one way to see it. But you could also say that the quantity of real characters Zelda characters is too low.

Besides, if "quantity" was really all "representation" is about, every Zelda fan would be happy since there is so much Zelda stuff in this game. But although the stages, assists, items and musics are obviously nice, the real stars of Smash Bros have always been the characters.

 

[Quillion]

That's one way to see it. But you could also say that the quantity of real characters Zelda characters is too low.

Besides, if "quantity" was really all "representation" is about, every Zelda fan would be happy since there is so much Zelda stuff in this game. But although the stages, assists, items and musics are obviously nice, the real stars of Smash Bros have always been the characters.

Thing is, "representation" is such a loaded term in the Smash context that I avoid it by its lonesome now. When anyone says "representation", it's nothing more than a complaint about quantity. I'm either more specific in saying "quality of representation" or just criticizing the characters' portrayals directly.

 

[Oracle Link]

So now that we probably wont get anyone in Smash ultimate ill put my ideas for the next smash in here! (and honestly i hope the next smash drops some third Parties and unecesary clones and fleshes out some stuf)

Link (being finally deserving of being called just link)

2D Link

Toon link / tetra echo

Zelda

Ganondorf

Just pretend its oot or Tp gd holding a trident

Impa / Sheik Shiek

Gorons (have costumes based on other games)

Vaati

Octorock * Only if Pirahna plant returns* or i dunno make him an item or something theyre just so cute or an mii hat

So a bunch of not one off zelda chars perfect for a sequel representing most of 3d Zelda outside of Majoras mask and a bunch of 2d Zelda Chars with the same ammount of characters as pokemon and yeah pokemon trainer is 3 charcters!

 

[IzukuXYang4Life]

I just personally want a new Zelda rep that's not just another mindless Link, Zelda, Or Captain Falcon clone.

Give me The Champions as Switchable Characters.

Give Me Vaati.

Give Me Skull Kid.

Give Me Impa with a 100 Percent Original Moveset That Doesn't Copy Shiek.

Give Me Tetra With A Moveset That Doesn't Steal From Toon Link Or Shiek That doesn't have Toon Zelda.

Give Me Midna And Wolf Link

Give Me Ghirahim.

Give Me Zant.

Give Me Ravio Or Yuga From A Link Between Worlds.


Better than.

Remove Shiek. Young Link. And Toon Link From The Next Smash game (I doubt anyone will cry their hearts out or be screaming in agony over Young/Toon Link not coming back).

And just replace them with one of the characters I just listed.

That should not be too darn difficult for Sakurai to do.

Assuming he does come for another Smash game as opposed to Nintendo hiring someone else to make Smash games (Or just killing Smash in favor of more Pokemon/Mario Spin Off's no one cares about).


Speaking of Mario. Please do not add anymore Mario characters to the roster. Or Fire Emblem Characters (Who gives a rat's butt-hole about Fire Emblem except horny teens). Or More Pokemon.

Please throw in more Kirby, Donkey Kong, ARMS, Kid Icarus, Mother/Earthbound, Metroid, F-Zero, ect..... Characters!!

 

[Oracle Link]

Young Link. And Toon Link From The Next Smash game (I doubt anyone will cry their hearts out or be screaming in agony over Young/Toon Link not coming back).

If there isnt a young link i would cry and scream and probably not buy the next smash! I mean it doesnt need to be Toon or young but stil i need a tiny link with the link moveset (although you could definitly change some things a bit) but yeah we only need one Young link!

 

[fogbadge]

Remove Shiek. Young Link. And Toon Link From The Next Smash game (I doubt anyone will cry their hearts out or be screaming in agony over Young/Toon Link not coming back).

you underestimate the fandom

 

[IzukuXYang4Life]

If there isnt a young link i would cry and scream and probably not buy the next smash! I mean it doesnt need to be Toon or young but stil i need a tiny link with the link moveset (although you could definitly change some things a bit) but yeah we only need one Young link!

I still want a Zelda character that's not just another version of Link.

I'm sick to death of Sakurai being lazy with movesets and just reskinning the exact same moveset over and over again and again.

I need someone with some moveset originality Gosh Darn It!!!

 

[Oracle Link]

I still want a Zelda character that's not just another version of Link.

I'm sick to death of Sakurai being lazy with movesets and just reskinning the exact same moveset over and over again and again.

I need someone with some moveset originality Gosh Darn It!!!

Still link is a kid in most games so how about we scrap adult link then Hmmm!

 

[fogbadge]

I'm sick to death of Sakurai being lazy with movesets and just reskinning the exact same moveset over and over again and again.

youre thinking of FE

 

[Janx_uwu]

Because, while the life and blood of Zelda may be its Triforce holders, the backbone is the one-offs. Everyone from Skull Kid to Tingle to Beedle to Marin to even a Guardian are all exploding with personality and moveset potential. It's not a question of "how important are they to the series?" but "how well would they work in Smash?" This is why so many people want Knuckles or Shadow over Eggman as a second Sonic rep. That's why Zero was playable in UMvC3 but the blue bomber himself was absent. That's why we have Pyra and Mythra but no Rex, Kazuya Mishima but no Heihachi, Min-Min but no Spring Man.
At the end of the day, people like characters? People want characters. It doesn't matter who's more important than who.

 

[fogbadge]

Because, while the life and blood of Zelda may be its Triforce holders, the backbone is the one-offs. Everyone from Skull Kid to Tingle to Beedle to Marin to even a Guardian are all exploding with personality and moveset potential. It's not a question of "how important are they to the series?" but "how well would they work in Smash?" This is why so many people want Knuckles or Shadow over Eggman as a second Sonic rep. That's why Zero was playable in UMvC3 but the blue bomber himself was absent. That's why we have Pyra and Mythra but no Rex, Kazuya Mishima but no Heihachi, Min-Min but no Spring Man.
At the end of the day, people like characters? People want characters. It doesn't matter who's more important than who.

thats not quite right

 

[Janx_uwu]

thats not quite right

Okay. Care to explain why?

 

[Blackwolf666]

Zelda is like part of Nintendo's top 3 selling franchises (didn't look at the numbers and if it somehow not in the top 3 ill bet its close enough) and its a crime IMO that that series only has 6 fighters with 3 of them having the same name, look and practically the same moveset and another character being a semi-clone to a character from a far less popular series. Especially since they have so many characters, tribes, items and abilities to draw inspiration from.

Mario is well represented however... I still think Waluigi is a good fit for the roster. Why am I continuing to support Waluigi? What do I possibly think he can bring to the table that is new and engaging? What I think he can do differently is have a moveset inspired by the various Mario Party, Sports and Kart games. Honestly, I was hoping that Daisy would have gotten that treatment but they decided to go the clone route for her which the fanbase welcomed with open arms. Mario's spin off series have reached such popularity that i'm surprised they haven't made a character with a moveset built around nods to them.

 

[fogbadge]

Okay. Care to explain why?

well you appear to saying that personality is why some characters got in which isnt right. min min got in due to the ARMS director's request and pythra cause sakurai gave up on rex at the first hurdle

 

[Oracle Link]

Because, while the life and blood of Zelda may be its Triforce holders, the backbone is the one-offs. Everyone from Skull Kid to Tingle to Beedle to Marin to even a Guardian are all exploding with personality and moveset potential. It's not a question of "how important are they to the series?" but "how well would they work in Smash?" This is why so many people want Knuckles or Shadow over Eggman as a second Sonic rep. That's why Zero was playable in UMvC3 but the blue bomber himself was absent. That's why we have Pyra and Mythra but no Rex, Kazuya Mishima but no Heihachi, Min-Min but no Spring Man.
At the end of the day, people like characters? People want characters. It doesn't matter who's more important than who.

But you do know that Xenoblade already has a protagonist, Kazuya was the main char of the first game and Min min was requested by the developers?

 

[MyB]

If a character is awesome and people want them in, that's all that matters.

 

[Quillion]

Mario's spin off series have reached such popularity that i'm surprised they haven't made a character with a moveset built around nods to them.

That's like if we had a Pokémon character based around Mystery Dungeon or Pokkén Tournament. Who wants either of those?

 

[Jondolio]

It's been a while since I've been on the boards and the fact Smash fans still act as if there are some sort of rules as to who gets in or not after we got characters like Piranha Plant, Joker, and Sephiroth is just really, really funny to me.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

That's like if we had a Pokémon character based around Mystery Dungeon or Pokkén Tournament. Who wants either of those?

On the Infinite thread we voted in Grovyle and Celebi from PMD.

 

[Quillion]

It's been a while since I've been on the boards and the fact Smash fans still act as if there are some sort of rules as to who gets in or not after we got characters like Piranha Plant, Joker, and Sephiroth is just really, really funny to me.

While the pool of third-party characters is certainly increasing, Smash's actions on the lack of Mario spin-off characters and Zelda one-shots is speaking louder.

 

[Jondolio]

While the pool of third-party characters is certainly increasing, Smash's actions on the lack of Mario spin-off characters and Zelda one-shots is speaking louder.

I'd like to remind you that Echo Fighter or not, Daisy was literally the second newcomer revealed. She's not what I'd call a main series staple at all.
Dunno about Zelda but if there was enough demand for a specific character I'm sure we'd get them. The problem is that people are just asking for a general new Zelda character without a clear contender in mind.

 

[Quillion]

I'd like to remind you that Echo Fighter or not, Daisy was literally the second newcomer revealed. She's not what I'd call a main series staple at all.

She's no staple but she is a main series character even still.

 

[Oracle Link]

I'd like to remind you that Echo Fighter or not, Daisy was literally the second newcomer revealed. She's not what I'd call a main series staple at all.
Dunno about Zelda but if there was enough demand for a specific character I'm sure we'd get them. The problem is that people are just asking for a general new Zelda character without a clear contender in mind.

Impa was asked for just as much as Daisy!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

She's no staple but she is a main series character even still.

Which isn't why she got in. She was popular and played like Peach in pretty much every game. That's it. She barely has a difference, and even that hurtbox difference doesn't actually matter in any casual game.

Also, Dr. Mario is still hard evidence that being from a spin-off is not going to affect things. It's not some exception at this point.

Beyond that, funny how Mario Kart is a pretty big represented portion on its own. Spin-offs clearly are a major part of Mario as is. Whether they're from a spin-off or not isn't going to ultimately matter. There's actual important things like Nintendo saying yes, licensing where applicable, figuring out a moveset that flows.

 

[BonafideFella]

because they could be fun

 

[Jondolio]

She's no staple but she is a main series character even still.

The last main series game she was in was 30 years ago. Incidentally, it was also the first.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Because they're cool, decently popular with fans, and have a lot of moveset potential. I think that's all the justification people need for wanting them!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The last main series game she was in was 30 years ago. Incidentally, it was also the first.

Actually, Super Mario Run was the last one. For some reason it's labeled officially as a Main Series game. It's really... not much otherwise. I mean, she cameos in the same way as Waluigi in Super Mario Maker too, another mainline game, but I wouldn't call them important roles, just cool roles(since the amiibo costumes were a selling point and all).

2 out of over 50 games isn't really anything to write home about. Daisy still pretty much never played as anything in every game besides being like Peach, including Super Mario Run. At worse she gained some abilities that were odd(floating, Vegetables, Toads in general) that would require some extra work to replace, and for an Echo, that's harder to do. Floating is the biggest issue, since Peach's aerials are focused on using that as a combo, so they'd need to make her aerials different to compensate for the changes. Toads don't matter that much, and there's really no good alternatives for her regular B, whereas she doesn't need to use them during the Throws either. Vegetables are at least easy enough to replace, with something like Carrots from Super Mario Land, but that'd still need new models too.

 

[Jondolio]

My point was that Daisy is primarily known for being in spin-offs, like Waluigi. Both are recognizable to casual audiences, which is why they make an equal amount of sense to include.
Also, being in a mobile game doesn't exactly come with the "prestige" that OP argued most mainline Mario characters have. I don't think it makes a huge difference.

 

[Lenidem]

Actually, Super Mario Run was the last one. For some reason it's labeled officially as a Main Series game. It's really... not much otherwise. I mean, she cameos in the same way as Waluigi in Super Mario Maker too, another mainline game, but I wouldn't call them important roles, just cool roles(since the amiibo costumes were a selling point and all).

2 out of over 50 games isn't really anything to write home about. Daisy still pretty much never played as anything in every game besides being like Peach, including Super Mario Run. At worse she gained some abilities that were odd(floating, Vegetables, Toads in general) that would require some extra work to replace, and for an Echo, that's harder to do. Floating is the biggest issue, since Peach's aerials are focused on using that as a combo, so they'd need to make her aerials different to compensate for the changes. Toads don't matter that much, and there's really no good alternatives for her regular B, whereas she doesn't need to use them during the Throws either. Vegetables are at least easy enough to replace, with something like Carrots from Super Mario Land, but that'd still need new models too.

Are Super Mario Run and Mario Maker "mainline", though? Who labelled them as such?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Are Super Mario Run and Mario Maker "mainline", though? Who labelled them as such?

There is no such thing as a Mario main series. People are just making something out of nothing - that being random promo material for Mario Maker 1 and 2.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Are Super Mario Run and Mario Maker "mainline", though? Who labelled them as such?

Super Mario Run is listed along side main Mario games on websites.

Though if the same applies to Mario Kart Tour, I wonder if the next "true" entry will be Mario Kart X.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Are Super Mario Run and Mario Maker "mainline", though? Who labelled them as such?

Nintendo themselves.

https://mario.nintendo.com/history/ There was a better version of the site, but it lists all the mainline games on here. You just need to physically scroll through them. Super Mario Maker(as well as 2) is literally just all the mainline games anyway, but with you building the game. That's not a surprise. Super Mario Run is odd, but being a straight platformer, it's not as odd as it has to be. Them including remakes in it is more awkward than those.

The video itself also helps make it clear.

Super Mario Run is listed along side main Mario games on websites.

Though if the same applies to Mario Kart Tour, I wonder if the next "true" entry will be Mario Kart X.

Mario Kart Tour is not listed among the site I linked, if it helps.

 

[Oracle Link]

There is no such thing as a Mario main series. People are just making something out of nothing - that being random promo material for Mario Maker 1 and 2.

There is 18 games to be exact:

 

[UserKev]

I'd like to remind you that Echo Fighter or not, Daisy was literally the second newcomer revealed. She's not what I'd call a main series staple at all.
Dunno about Zelda but if there was enough demand for a specific character I'm sure we'd get them. The problem is that people are just asking for a general new Zelda character without a clear contender in mind.

Suddenly, this gets more interesting the more I actually think about it. Particularly on Zelda's stance, most of us have a pretty daunted habit of bailing when new Zelda characters supposedly lose relevancy, way too soon. Now I think if we actually rallied behind these characters, one may actually get in. Some characters will take longer to get in than others. Impa actually helps this case. Zelda fans may come off as not knowing what they actually want anymore to Sakurai, one of the most sensible outcomes I can totally feel.

The key to supporting is, you HAVE to keep going, even when all hope seems lose. Just keep pushing through the tunnel. You have to want something to get it. Otherwise, it will immediately slip away.