Why should Zelda one-shots and Mario spin-off characters be playable in Smash?

[Quillion]

No but characters like Midna, Skull Kid, Ghiraham, and the Champions are very important to their games. They just aren't the main characters. A big part of Zelda is the rotating supporting characters while FE has rotating entire casts.

That's the thing though, the Zelda one-shots aren't main characters. The one-shots of Fire Emblem are main characters (to the point that the few recurring ones like Anna aren't main characters).

Putting in a Zelda one-shot as a playable character is like having Sylux in Smash before he returns in Metroid Prime 4 (presumably). It would also be like putting Bowser Jr. in Brawl; it's a good thing they waited until after he appeared in the Galaxy duology to put him in as a playable character.

Now that i think about this we really need dedicated Mario and zelda Smash games i mean even if we get like 10 zelda chars and 6 mario ones there is still so much wasted potential in less important pics! And by the way we also need a kirby fighterz with all dreamfriends and helpers!

Well, you know, the Mario spin-offs are the ones that have the responsibility of bringing together all the major and some minor Mario characters together.

For Zelda, we just have the first Hyrule Warriors, but I really am hungry for another Zelda intra-franchise crossover. It could either be a fighting game or a turn-based strategy RPG. Both would work.

 

[fogbadge]

That's the thing though, the Zelda one-shots aren't main characters. The one-shots of Fire Emblem are main characters (to the point that the few recurring ones like Anna aren't main characters).

midna, fi, ghirahim, zant, veran, onyx, ezlo, lady maude, the king of red lions, maldalus, bellum, yuga, ravio, hilda, majora, demise, navi, tatl, ciela are all one shots and main characters

 

[WeirdChillFever]

So how about Rosalina? She’s a bit of a combination of the two. She was a one-off in Galaxy outside of her cameo in its sequel and since then had appeared in two spin-offs before she was decided upon for Smash. What put her over the edge? Her cameo? Her appearances in two Mario Karts? Hardly enough to establish a pattern I’d say.

 

[fogbadge]

So how about Rosalina? She’s a bit of a combination of the two. She was a one-off in Galaxy outside of her cameo in its sequel and since then had appeared in two spin-offs before she was decided upon for Smash. What put her over the edge? Her cameo? Her appearances in two Mario Karts? Hardly enough to establish a pattern I’d say.

galaxy's success

 

[WeirdChillFever]

galaxy's success

Well yeah but then Twilight Princess’ success should qualify Midna as well

 

[fogbadge]

Well yeah but then Twilight Princess’ success should qualify Midna as well

you would have thought so.

 

[Oddball]

That's the thing though, the Zelda one-shots aren't main characters. The one-shots of Fire Emblem are main characters (to the point that the few recurring ones like Anna aren't main characters).

You could just as easily use that logic to say that Fire Emblem doesn't have a main character.

And if it doesn't, why should any of them be included at all?

 

[Quillion]

So how about Rosalina? She’s a bit of a combination of the two. She was a one-off in Galaxy outside of her cameo in its sequel and since then had appeared in two spin-offs before she was decided upon for Smash. What put her over the edge? Her cameo? Her appearances in two Mario Karts? Hardly enough to establish a pattern I’d say.

Spoiler: I don't know if this is a spoiler anymore, but...

Rosalina is an unlockable playable character in 3D World. I suppose it was that which pushed her into something near main character status.

And still, she is a main series character unlike Waluigi.

You could just as easily use that logic to say that Fire Emblem doesn't have a main character.

And if it doesn't, why should any of them be included at all?

Like I said in another thread, different franchises should be treated differently.

If Zelda was treated like Pokémon, Midna, Ghirahim, and the Champions would all be playable, and that would just be weird.

 

[Oddball]

Like I said in another thread, different franchises should be treated differently.

That just sounds like a lame excuse not to have any kind of set standards to me.

You're basically just saying that you made up a set of rules on your own, but you're not going to apply them all to different series.
In that case you might as well not have any rules at all.
Why does this series get side characters and this one doesn't? Because it's a different series.

And since it's a different series, there's nothing saying we have to treat it by the same rules, so why can't we have side characters?

As I have said in another thread, Smash doesn't have rules for what characters it allows and what characters it doesn't. Rules are strictly fan created things that Smash ignores left and right.

 

[MasterCheef]

Why Zelda one-shots should be playable in Smash?

As long as they provide good game-play they should be considered.

Most notably __ Age of Calamity __ Impa _ / _ Paya __ would be my top pick

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

The way I see it, one-shot characters can be more iconic to the franchise and represent parts of a franchise better than main characters. Simple as that.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

My own take is that pretty much any character can get in if they're fun. Recognisability is nice, sure, but it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There aren't very many Legend of Zelda characters whom are recurring. But I will say that Impa (preferably her Skyward Sword design) could've potentially worked, if she was to function differently from Sheik.

 

[DBPirate]

If Zelda was treated like Pokémon, Midna, Ghirahim, and the Champions would all be playable, and that would just be weird.

I don't really see how that's weird tbh. Zelda one-shot characters like Skull Kid, Midna, and Ghirahim are iconic and have stood the test of time. I think having an obligatory Pokémon character from the most recent generation (instead of choosing one that's remained popular over many years -- Greninja was a lucky pick in that regard) is way worse than that.

Unfortunately, I think the time is passed for that anyway. Brawl or Smash 4 would have been the time to add those characters but I guess Sakurai just doesn't see the point. I wouldn't mind Zelda getting a new character every game. It deserves it imo.

 

[Bakabridget]

There's no reason Tingle, impa, or skull kid couldn't have been eligible choices, tingle could even have repped his own series like wario.

Fire emblem just gets special treatment. I think it's very likely that someone high up at nintendo that's deciding what sakurai should put in happens to be a big fire emblem fan and is just having fire emblem characters put in to satisfy themself. I admit if i had that level of power i would have sakurai put in a couple characters i personally want as well, but i think they've gone way overboard.

 

[fogbadge]

There's no reason Tingle, impa, or skull kid couldn't have been eligible choices, tingle could even have repped his own series like wario.

Fire emblem just gets special treatment. I think it's very likely that someone high up at nintendo that's deciding what sakurai should put in happens to be a big fire emblem fan and is just having fire emblem characters put in to satisfy themself. I admit if i had that level of power i would have sakurai put in a couple characters i personally want as well, but i think they've gone way overboard.

or more likely sakurai is a big fire emblem fan

 

[uptonogood]

I'm fine with people wanting Impa, but I have seen people around the internet suggesting they replace Sheik with Impa which is just idiotic to me. If I had to pick a Zelda character to add it would be Skull Kid since him and his game appeared to get the most attention in terms of new Zelda content in Ultimate compared to other side characters like Midna, Impa, etc. And since people want Young Link to get a new moveset that uses masks, Skull Kid would be a good way to deliver something kind of like that without having to change a classic characters moves.

 

[Trevenant]

It's got nothing to do with Sakurai or some big name Nintendo exec being a big FE fan lol. Most of the unique FE additions, and especially the ones from more recently were added to promote games. Sakurai has no reason to lie lol, and even the most biased nintendo exec in the world wouldn't let personal preferences interfere with what they think would be most beneficial in the long run. These are the kind of absurd ideas that only helped fan the flames when Byleth was revealed lol

 

[fogbadge]

It's got nothing to do with Sakurai or some big name Nintendo exec being a big FE fan lol. Most of the unique FE additions, and especially the ones from more recently were added to promote games. Sakurai has no reason to lie lol, and even the most biased nintendo exec in the world wouldn't let personal preferences interfere with what they think would be most beneficial in the long run. These are the kind of absurd ideas that only helped fan the flames when Byleth was revealed lol

look at the kirby content then try telling someone sakurai isnt bias

 

[Trevenant]

look at the kirby content then try telling someone sakurai isnt bias

Yeah but I'm talking specifically FE lol. I'd rather not get into a sakurai is biased debate but the bottom line is FE is largely from Nintendo. Sakurai has said this, and we have no reason to refute this other than really deep conspiracy theory stuff, especially when you consider that it's a very giant business move to shove in plugs like that..

 

[Freduardo]

If Zelda was treated like Pokémon, Midna, Ghirahim, and the Champions would all be playable, and that would just be weird.

Isn’t Sheik a one off character? She never felt weird. I don’t think those characters would feel weird.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah but I'm talking specifically FE lol. I'd rather not get into a sakurai is biased debate but the bottom line is FE is largely from Nintendo. Sakurai has said this, and we have no reason to refute this other than really deep conspiracy theory stuff, especially when you consider that it's a very giant business move to shove in plugs like that..

no because only byleth was down to nintendo. corrin was peer pressure from the rest of the smash team. the other 6 are down to sakurai and sakurai alone. it doesnt make any sense when you consider that theyd have loads of games to plug and that are are many ways to plug a new game outside of a new character, yet it always comes down to fe.

 

[Freduardo]

no because only byleth was down to nintendo. corrin was peer pressure from the rest of the smash team. the other 6 are down to sakurai and sakurai alone. it doesnt make any sense when you consider that theyd have loads of games to plug and that are are many ways to plug a new game outside of a new character, yet it always comes down to fe.

Was Roy also Nintendo as he was like Byleth similarly plugging an upcoming/recent game?

 

[fogbadge]

Was Roy also Nintendo as he was like Byleth similarly plugging an upcoming/recent game?

dont think so

 

[Trevenant]

no because only byleth was down to nintendo. corrin was peer pressure from the rest of the smash team. the other 6 are down to sakurai and sakurai alone. it doesnt make any sense when you consider that theyd have loads of games to plug and that are are many ways to plug a new game outside of a new character, yet it always comes down to fe.

Yes Corrin was Nintendo lol. Why would a character be from an unreleased game be peer pressure from the smash team? The only thing that I recall ever possibly suggesting that was when Sakurai said something like 'we thought to include someone from this upcoming game' in the direct Corrin was announced in but when you consider that Corrin was literally a plug, even if this supposed peer pressure did exist, that it still was down to Nintendo. The fact that Roy also didn't exist suggests that he was added with similar corporate benefits in mind. Ike was also marked as an FE character in a general sense. It's got nothing to do with bias, it's very likely down to Nintendo calling the shots. The only instance which weren't the case for this aside from Marth were Robin and Lucina, one of which were a clone.

Some stuff is picked earlier on, but that shows how it's just based on corporate interests all the more. Like discounting clones, Marth was representing the series initially and Robin came from the game that saved it... We don't need direct confirmation on everything when we can just use common knowledge to try and fill in the gaps when like 4 of them were clearly requests from Nintendo or intelligent systems.

 

[Geno Boost]

I would say one timed Mario and Zelda characters have always been more interesting to the series than than the ones we see every time
For example Dimentio or Fawful would probably excite more people than Paper Mario or Toad despite Paper Mario and Toad being more requested because the reality is main characters we see every time normally don’t get much character development making them not memorable enough to the fans of the Mario series when they play the games.
As for Zelda I think it’s heavily neglected due to the fact it’s one of most sold series in gaming history yet it’s poorly represented in terms of playable characters 3 links and 2 Zeldas and 1 ganon isn’t enough to properly represent a huge series a one timed character such as Skull Kid and Midna are pretty much fan favorite and memorable for so many people

 

[fogbadge]

Yes Corrin was Nintendo lol. Why would a character be from an unreleased game be peer pressure from the smash team? The only thing that I recall ever possibly suggesting that was when Sakurai said something like 'we thought to include someone from this upcoming game' in the direct Corrin was announced in but when you consider that Corrin was literally a plug, even if this supposed peer pressure did exist, that it still was down to Nintendo. The fact that Roy also didn't exist suggests that he was added with similar corporate benefits in mind. Ike was also marked as an FE character in a general sense. It's got nothing to do with bias, it's very likely down to Nintendo calling the shots. The only instance which weren't the case for this aside from Marth were Robin and Lucina, one of which were a clone.

Some stuff is picked earlier on, but that shows how it's just based on corporate interests all the more. Like discounting clones, Marth was representing the series initially and Robin came from the game that saved it... We don't need direct confirmation on everything when we can just use common knowledge to try and fill in the gaps when like 4 of them were clearly requests from Nintendo or intelligent systems.

no because what sakurai said was that the rest of his deb team (at sora not nintendo) had been playing fates and convinced him that corinn could be different from the other fe characters. sakurai said he was the one who wanted to include a character from a recent game. nintendo wasnt involved and the decision was ultimately his. if it was based on corporate interests surely theyd be plugging the games in their bigger series? roy was also his choice not nintendos. theres only one fe character who can be attributed to nintendo themsleves wanting to "shil" and even then by sakurais own admission he had final say on all character inclusions. common knowledge tells us that sakurai and his team were the ones picking the characters with the exception of ultimates slc cycle and again he still had final say

 

[Trevenant]

no because what sakurai said was that the rest of his deb team (at sora not nintendo) had been playing fates and convinced him that corinn could be different from the other fe characters. sakurai said he was the one who wanted to include a character from a recent game. nintendo wasnt involved and the decision was ultimately his. if it was based on corporate interests surely theyd be plugging the games in their bigger series? roy was also his choice not nintendos. theres only one fe character who can be attributed to nintendo themsleves wanting to "shil" and even then by sakurais own admission he had final say on all character inclusions. common knowledge tells us that sakurai and his team were the ones picking the characters with the exception of ultimates slc cycle and again he still had final say

IDK, if you're not even willing to consider the other option just cos Sakurai said something which could have been taken out of context cos it was literally a dubbed direct then there's not a point in me trying to state the obvious and show why it's way more likely to be the case TBH. I'm pretty sure a famitsu column exists that says Nintendo chose Corrin but even if not, it was literally a plug. The smash team didn't convince Sakurai, it was down to Nintendo wanting Corrin in the game. The only thing that they may have convinced him on was that Sakurai was skeptical about including another FE swordie, but aside from that, there isn't a chance that Nintendo wasn't at the helm of that decision when the game had yet to be released worldwide in nations that Fates would have largely not had done as well in. Roy was also a blatant plug cos his game wasn't even out yet. That one may have been prompted by IS, but it was out of the smash team's hands either way. He likely just has to comply at times lol, I think sakurai would rather not add another FE character if he couldn't because of the controversy it causes lol. He clearly said that he fully realized how controversial those additions were as far back as Corrin, with Byleth making them more apparent by a tenfold. It's just better to take these additions at face value lmao, instead of needing the gaps to be fully filled in for a theory that seems to only have gotten as widespread as it is cos of the lack of things people want in the game that aren't as attached to Sakurai.

 

[fogbadge]

IDK, if you're not even willing to consider the other option just cos Sakurai said something which could have been taken out of context cos it was literally a dubbed direct then there's not a point in me trying to state the obvious and show why it's way more likely to be the case TBH. I'm pretty sure a famitsu column exists that says Nintendo chose Corrin but even if not, it was literally a plug. The smash team didn't convince Sakurai, it was down to Nintendo wanting Corrin in the game. The only thing that they may have convinced him on was that Sakurai was skeptical about including another FE swordie, but aside from that, there isn't a chance that Nintendo wasn't at the helm of that decision when the game had yet to be released worldwide in nations that Fates would have largely not had done as well in. Roy was also a blatant plug cos his game wasn't even out yet. That one may have been prompted by IS, but it was out of the smash team's hands either way. He likely just has to comply at times lol, I think sakurai would rather not add another FE character if he couldn't because of the controversy it causes lol. He clearly said that he fully realized how controversial those additions were as far back as Corrin, with Byleth making them more apparent by a tenfold. It's just better to take these additions at face value lmao, instead of needing the gaps to be fully filled in for a theory that seems to only have gotten as widespread as it is cos of the lack of things people want in the game that aren't as attached to Sakurai.

ive looked at the other option and it doesnt make any sense. why would nintendo chose to plug FE and not any of their other series? why not pokemon, why not mario why not zelda? did they think it needed the promotion? well after the success of awakening they said they were gonna start treating FE as a big ip. so the question is then why out of all their big IPs why is it FE, when all their other big IPs also had releases around the same time.

here is the source saying it was the smash team that convinced sakurai https://www.vgfacts.com/trivia/10911/
here is sakurai talking about how roy was his decision http://sourcegaming.info/2015/12/13/sakurai-fe25/
here is an iwata asks interb=view where sakurai says his team picks the characters https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Iwata-As.../1-Iwata-Asks-His-Former-Employee-212640.html

you can blame nintendo as much as you want but by his own admission most of the FE characters are down to him

 

[Perkilator]

I'll do you one better: why shouldn't they be playable when they have genuine fans? And I say this as someone without ANY personal attachment to them.

 

[uptonogood]

I'll do you one better: why shouldn't they be playable when they have genuine fans? And I say this as someone without ANY personal attachment to them.

The way I see it, as long as a character has popularity and is seen as iconic, nothing else should matter in terms of potential inclusion. That's why Sheik is still in Smash and hasn't been replaced by Impa at this point, she's just way more iconic.

 

[Quillion]

fogbadge : Anna aside, the Fire Emblem characters are all one-shots. They only have one fleeting chance to make it in, and if it doesn't happen, they won't be in ever.

Contrast this to Mario, which keeps the vast majority of fresh new faces around as main characters. Bowser Jr. could not be in Brawl because he still needed to prove himself to be a mainstay, which is why he was in Smash 4 instead.

I'll do you one better: why shouldn't they be playable when they have genuine fans? And I say this as someone without ANY personal attachment to them.

Fandoms can be fleeting. For example, where are Incineroar's fans in the Pokémon fandom now? Most seem to have moved on to the Gen 8 starters.

They can be kept afloat by Smash, but I don't really see that happening post 64 and Melee really.

The way I see it, as long as a character has popularity and is seen as iconic, nothing else should matter in terms of potential inclusion. That's why Sheik is still in Smash and hasn't been replaced by Impa at this point, she's just way more iconic.

Iconic in terms of fans or iconic in terms of recurrence? If it's the former, those fans are mainly those from her being one of Melee's top tier faces and very little from Zelda fans (who have largely moved on to the next Princess Zelda if at all). If it's the latter, all she has are one spin-off and one ground-up remake and nothing else.

 

[uptonogood]

fogbadge : Anna aside, the Fire Emblem characters are all one-shots. They only have one fleeting chance to make it in, and if it doesn't happen, they won't be in ever.

Contrast this to Mario, which keeps the vast majority of fresh new faces around as main characters. Bowser Jr. could not be in Brawl because he still needed to prove himself to be a mainstay, which is why he was in Smash 4 instead.



Fandoms can be fleeting. For example, where are Incineroar's fans in the Pokémon fandom now? Most seem to have moved on to the Gen 8 starters.

They can be kept afloat by Smash, but I don't really see that happening post 64 and Melee really.



Iconic in terms of fans or iconic in terms of recurrence? If it's the former, those fans are mainly those from her being one of Melee's top tier faces and very little from Zelda fans (who have largely moved on to the next Princess Zelda if at all). If it's the latter, all she has are one spin-off and one ground-up remake and nothing else.

iconic meaning overall popularity to the general public and fans of both Zelda and Smash alike. Skull Kid w/ Majora's Mask is a good example of a character who is iconic since Majora's Mask has so much merch and a large pop culture resonance.

 

[fogbadge]

fogbadge : Anna aside, the Fire Emblem characters are all one-shots. They only have one fleeting chance to make it in, and if it doesn't happen, they won't be in ever.

Contrast this to Mario, which keeps the vast majority of fresh new faces around as main characters. Bowser Jr. could not be in Brawl because he still needed to prove himself to be a mainstay, which is why he was in Smash 4 instead.

the point of that discussion was they kept saying it was nintendo telling sakurai to put in FE while i was informing them that by sakurais own words the vast majority of the roster is down to him. also your claim there isnt actually backed up by anything sakurai has ever said and is surely contradicted by the fact that shiek got in strait away without having as you say proved themselves to be main stay

 

[Lenidem]

the point of that discussion was they kept saying it was nintendo telling sakurai to put in FE while i was informing them that by sakurais own words the vast majority of the roster is down to him. also your claim there isnt actually backed up by anything sakurai has ever said and is surely contradicted by the fact that shiek got in strait away without having as you say proved themselves to be main stay

Yeah, characters having to "proove themselves" before joining Smash comes out of nowhere. Some characters' games were not even out when they joined, and others, like Ice Climbers, were barely remembered and didn't really have a fanbase. When you have to create different sub-rules for each particular situation, it means that there are actually no rules to begin with.

 

[Quillion]

the point of that discussion was they kept saying it was nintendo telling sakurai to put in FE while i was informing them that by sakurais own words the vast majority of the roster is down to him. also your claim there isnt actually backed up by anything sakurai has ever said and is surely contradicted by the fact that shiek got in strait away without having as you say proved themselves to be main stay

Sheik is a special case though. She got in tied to Zelda, and is only on after Brawl for legacy reasons. As much as people may not want to admit it, Melee was still in Early Installment Weirdness mode where criteria for inclusion was a lot looser. We had Dr. Mario only because Sakurai liked "Fever" whereas later clones have been veritably important characters in their own right.

Again, I cannot see something similar, like Hilda being an echo of Zelda, being done nowadays.

Yeah, characters having to "proove themselves" before joining Smash comes out of nowhere. Some characters' games were not even out when they joined, and others, like Ice Climbers, were barely remembered and didn't really have a fanbase. When you have to create different sub-rules for each particular situation, it means that there are actually no rules to begin with.

The "rules" are mostly guessing on our part, but if there truly were no rules, the Zelda side of the roster would have Skull Kid, Tetra, Midna, and Ghirahim playable in Smash 4. Metroid would have Sylux presumably in anticipation for Metroid Prime 4.

You may not have to like it, but there has to be a reason as to why different franchises are treated differently in Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

Sheik is a special case though. She got in tied to Zelda, and is only on after Brawl for legacy reasons. As much as people may not want to admit it, Melee was still in Early Installment Weirdness mode where criteria for inclusion was a lot looser. We had Dr. Mario only because Sakurai liked "Fever" whereas later clones have been veritably important characters in their own right.

Again, I cannot see something similar, like Hilda being an echo of Zelda, being done nowadays.



The "rules" are mostly guessing on our part, but if there truly were no rules, the Zelda side of the roster would have Skull Kid, Tetra, Midna, and Ghirahim playable in Smash 4. Metroid would have Sylux presumably in anticipation for Metroid Prime 4.

You may not have to like it, but there has to be a reason as to why different franchises are treated differently in Smash.

You do realise that you’ve basically undermined yourself there by admitting you’re just guessing. And as you don’t know the rules you can’t actually say what would happen if there weren’t any. So that was a bit of a redundant statement. And you’re claim that later clones are important characters isn’t quite right, dark samus is important only to a sun series within the main series, Daisy is multiplayer fodder and dark pit was a completely pointless character. Now using the tied to Zelda reasoning doesn’t quite hold up as there are many other one off alter ego characters who aren’t in despite being in the exact same position. And the idea that there has to be different rules for different franchises is also just a guess we don’t actually know that’s what he’s doing. The idea that he’s having to include more FE characters cause of the whole rotating cast thing doesn’t hold up cause it doesn’t happen to any other series in the same position. And it can’t be to do with series status cause there are more popular and more successful series with far less

 

[Lenidem]

Sheik is a special case though. She got in tied to Zelda, and is only on after Brawl for legacy reasons. As much as people may not want to admit it, Melee was still in Early Installment Weirdness mode where criteria for inclusion was a lot looser. We had Dr. Mario only because Sakurai liked "Fever" whereas later clones have been veritably important characters in their own right.

Again, I cannot see something similar, like Hilda being an echo of Zelda, being done nowadays.



The "rules" are mostly guessing on our part, but if there truly were no rules, the Zelda side of the roster would have Skull Kid, Tetra, Midna, and Ghirahim playable in Smash 4. Metroid would have Sylux presumably in anticipation for Metroid Prime 4.

You may not have to like it, but there has to be a reason as to why different franchises are treated differently in Smash.

And you just made-up the new the "Melee doesn't count" sub-rule... "Like it or not", if all the characters were selected randomly, you would still find a pattern because you're so desperate to find it that your mind would create one that is not there.